Isaiah 45:17, Peshitta, Mass, LXX, etc

[yaaqub]

Shlama Dave,

I just noticed you said "Psalms in Codex Ambrosianus" concerning those superscriptions. I know this is available online, so that answers my question as to its availability. Sorry for not noticing that.

It is my opinion that portions of Codex Ambrosianus is a product of Christian scribes based on the original Aramaic Jewish Tanakh or adaptation thereof.

[abudar2000]

shlomo Dave,

I've checked Psalm 23 in both Codex Ambrosianus OT and the current Peshitta OT

23. Saying of Dawid about the calm from the Altar of the Kingdom: <= Codex Ambrosianus OT
In Syriac => d'sryn wtlt. amyr ldwyd 'l nHyHa dptwra dmlkwth:
================
Dawid. about the Altar of the Kingdom. and for us now a spiritual entrance anew as Christians. <= The current Peshitta OT
In Syriac => ldwyd. 'l ptwra dmlkwth. wln h$a rwHnayt m'lta d'ma dkrysTyna Hdtayt.

So based on what I found it seems the that part about the entrance of Christians was a later modification to the Psalm intro. which post dates codex Ambrosianus.

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun

[gbausc]

Shlama Abudar,

You are right, Abudar. I have just examined the Codex and it does not have all the notes I find in my Peshitta edition (Syriac Bible,1979 UBS). Are you saying some modern editor put in his two cents worth? What ms. has these notes? I can't believe they were just inserted in a modern edition. The text of the Psalms seems to be from Ambrosianus, but the notes must come from another manuscript, which I believe represents a very ancient source.

So many of these inscriptions are Christian in character. Psalm 46 has reference to "adulterating the preaching of the Apostles", and you ignored the note from Psalm 74 (not Ambrosianus), which speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem as a recent event ("the nobles have not returned unto this day") and dates it as "40 years after the ascension". What sense does it make to use that language centuries after the event? Psalm 71 has a note: "Prophecy about the suffering and resurrection of The Messiah."

It would be interesting to find what ms.these extended notes come from. I believe they show that the translator(s) of the Psalms were Jews from 1st century Israel who had become "talmidya d'Meshikha".

Do you object to my translation:"

About the communion table and to us now, spiritually ,an introduction of the new Christian people

"? I notice you have "entrance" instead of "introduction",omit "people" and have "as Christians" instead of "of Christians". "Pathowra" can refer to the communion table as well as an altar, and usually does refer to a table of some kind (several times, the Lord's table) in the NT.

Thanks for your correction and input.

Burkta b'Maran,

Dave

[abudar2000]

shlomo Dave,

lo modem! tawdi lokh!

Shlama Abudar,

You are right, Abudar. I have just examined the Codex and it does not have all the notes I find in my Peshitta edition (Syriac Bible,1979 UBS). Are you saying some modern editor put in his two cents worth? What ms. has these notes? I can't believe they were just inserted in a modern edition. The text of the Psalms seems to be from Ambrosianus, but the notes must come from another manuscript, which I believe represents a very ancient source.

If you notice the OT in both the Codex and the current Peshitta it has the word 'ptg' which is short for 'ftgma'. This word is used in liturgical texts to give a short introduction or meaning to a text. As such these introductions in the Psalms are there for liturgical usage or short descriptions or even links to the NT.

But one thing to note is that when we refere to a Psalm, we don't use it number, but rather the first few words of the actual Psalm (this applies to any Text.)

Here's the Maronite of Psalm (where you won't find the introduction
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://cdm.csbsju.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/HMMLMicrofi&CISOPTR=60531&CISOBOX=1&REC=1">http://cdm.csbsju.edu/cdm4/item_viewer. ... OX=1&REC=1</a><!-- m -->

In some of our Lectionaries we have a short description prior to the actual Text, but these short descriptions are never read, they're there for liturgical use. And there are others which are hymned as an introductions to biblical readings.

So when they had inserted these introductions or modified them, it didn't matter, as they didn't consider them as part of the Text.

Notice that in the Maronite Psalm Text, the current full Peshitta OT Text of Psalm, and the Codex Ambrosianus OT Psalms that the actual Psalm is word for word identical.

So many of these inscriptions are Christian in character. Psalm 46 has reference to "adulterating the preaching of the Apostles", and you ignored the note from Psalm 74 (not Ambrosianus), which speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem as a recent event ("the nobles have not returned unto this day") and dates it as "40 years after the ascension". What sense does it make to use that language centuries after the event? Psalm 71 has a note: "Prophecy about the suffering and resurrection of The Messiah."

Same logic as above.

It would be interesting to find what ms.these extended notes come from. I believe they show that the translator(s) of the Psalms were Jews from 1st century Israel who had become "talmidya d'Meshikha".

It is very possible and probable that some of these introductions can be from an earlier time.

Do you object to my translation:"

About the communion table and to us now, spiritually ,an introduction of the new Christian people

"? I notice you have "entrance" instead of "introduction",omit "people" and have "as Christians" instead of "of Christians". "Pathowra" can refer to the communion table as well as an altar, and usually does refer to a table of some kind (several times, the Lord's table) in the NT.
Dave

The word "Communion Table" is another word for Altar, especially given that our Kohnuto believe that they continue in the line of Malkizdek from the OT (who we consider to be a prophecy of the kohnuto of Yeshu'), as he also raised bread and wine on an Altar.

I believe that this passage just means the following: "That through Communion from the Altar of God, we spiritually become new Christians again." It talks about the benefits of Communion.

Since I'm not a kohno, take my translations as is.

shlome wiqore,
keefa-morun

[gbausc]

Shlama Abudar,

Very interesting background material. Thank you for that.

I have done some reading on studies by David Taylor and others. It seems that the headings in the Psalms have been understood by some who have studied them to indicate the nature of the translators and their circumstances. The Western headings have not received nearly the attention the Eastern Syriac Psalm headings have. The idea in particular of people waiting for the captured nobles to return to Israel much later than the 1st century is quite untenable, so it would seem to date the translation of the Peshitta Psalms to no later than the 1st century, and to have been written by believers in Yeshua ("40 years after the ascension"- translators comments along with the "captured nobles" comments).
On the basis of the above, the Peshitta Psalms are believed to have been translated by Christians (probably Judeans who embraced the Christian faith) whereas The Torah and other sections are believed to have been translated by non Christian Judeans.

It is a fascinating field of study. I plan to include all the headings in my translation of the Psalms- first in interlinear form, then in a plain English translation.

Taybutha w'Burkta,

Dave

[TruthSeeker]

Greetings everyone,

I'm new to the discussion board and trust I found the right thread to post the following. I recently read Ruach Qadim by Andrew Gabrial Roth and greatly appreciated the corrections in the English NT found therein, as I'm also of the belief that the NT comes from a Semitic original and not a Hellenistic one. I'm looking forward to ordering and reading the next book from him. However, it (or rather the Aramaic translation of Yahweh to MarYah) has caused a question to arise in my mind. I'm of the understanding that names are really not to change from one language to another, but are rather to be transliterated. I can see due to grammer differences in Greek and Latin that the Savior's Name was obliterated and changed to something not even He would recognize, but for Yahweh's Name we're talking from one Semitic language to another. I'm assuming (from what I saw at the beginning of this thread, i.e., Isaiah 45:17) MarYah is what the Aramaic shows in the OT. In the NT, Yahweh's Name was no doubt proclaimed to the brethren (John 17:26) after coming to disuse by the Pharisaical doctrine of ineffability which caused the vowel pointing of Yahweh's Name to say Adonai (Master). I understand Mar to mean Master, and Yah is the poetic or shortened form of Yahweh. I guess I just don't understand why MarYah would be used instead of Yahweh in the Aramaic. Maybe someone can shed some light on this for me.

Respectfully,
TruthSeeker

[Paul Younan]

Hi Truthseeker,

That's an excellent question. Have you ever read in the Hebrew OT the shortened form of "Yahweh"? "Yah?" (see Ex. 15:2; 17:16; Psalm 68:5, 19; 77:12; 89:9; 94:7, 12; 102:19; 105:45; 106:1, Isa. 12:2; 26:4; 38:11)

Also, why do you suppose the shortened form, "Yah", is the one used in the formation of personal names like Isaiah? Or in "Hallelujah?"

Your answer to these questions will answer the "MarYah" question. <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s -->

-Shamasha Paul

[TruthSeeker]

Thank you. Yes, #3050 Yah, I'm certainly aware of it. I guess I was just suprised to see the contraction of two words (one a Title and the other a shortened Name) where I thought there should be only one full Name. At least, I'm assuming "Mar" can be used as a seperate word in Aramaic. Maybe I'm looking at this too much from a logical Western mindset. I do appreciate your comments. I'll ponder them as I start to take a closer look at the Hebrew and Aramaic languages. Is there any good layman's history book available showing in somewhat of a chronological order the Semitic languages, especially in detailing the growth from the biblical Hebrew to Aramaic?

Thanks again,
TruthSeeker

[Paul Younan]

Hi Truthseeker,

The phenomenon of shortening names, or making new forms from titles in both Hebrew and Aramaic is not limited to just those languages, it happens pretty much in every language. It's technically called a hypocoristicon. "Maryah", like "Isaiah", is a hypocoristicon.

For a very detailed explanation, with examples from English, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocoristicon

-Shamasha Paul

[TruthSeeker]

Thanks for the link and comments. It has given me more food for thought. I went back to Daniel, since I know that a portion of it is in Aramaic, and was shocked to see in my own notes on Dan 5:23 that I had written down "Mare" (Maw-ray) #2839 "A title like Elohim." I must have pulled it from Strongs or something. Too bad Daniel chapter 9 wasn't in Aramaic, as Yahweh's Name is used 16 times by Daniel in his prayer there. It would certianly help clarify MarYah for me if it had been used instead, but I appreciate the fact that the shortened form of the Name (Yah) is evident in MarYah. It gives me hope that I'm on the right track.

Blessings in Yah,
TruthSeeker

[Paul Younan]

The shortened form of the NAME is also the logo of this website. It's used in the CoE on holy texts and church altars.

-Shamasha Paul