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+-- Thread: Isaiah 45:17, Peshitta, Mass, LXX, etc (/showthread.php?tid=1482)
Isaiah 45:17, Peshitta, Mass, LXX, etc - yaaqub - 02-03-2008
Peshitta
The salvation of Israel is in MarYah, the Saviour of the world; you will not be insulted nor confused forever.
Aleppo Codex
?????????? ???????? ?????????? ?????????? ???????????? ???? ???????? ?????? ?????????? ???? ?????????? ????
Septuagint
???????????? ?????????????? ?????? ???????????? ???????????????? ?????????????? ?????? ???????????????????????????? ???????? ???? ???????????????????? ?????? ?????? ????????????
New American Standard Bible (1995)
Israel has been saved by the LORD With an everlasting salvation; You will not be put to shame or humiliated To all eternity.
GOD'S WORD Translation (1995)
Israel has been saved by the LORD forever. You will never again be ashamed or disgraced.
King James Bible
But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
American Standard Version
But Israel shall be saved by Jehovah with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be put to shame nor confounded world without end.
Bible in Basic English
But the Lord will make Israel free with an eternal salvation: you will not be put to shame or made low for ever and ever.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Israel is saved in the Lord with as eternal salvation: you shall not be con- founded, and you shall not be ashamed for ever and ever.
Darby Bible Translation
Israel shall be saved by Jehovah with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded, unto the ages of ages.
English Revised Version
But Israel shall be saved by the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
Jewish Publication Society Tanakh (1917)
O Israel, that art saved by the LORD with an everlasting salvation; ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
Webster's Bible Translation
But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
World English Bible
Israel will be saved by Yahweh with an everlasting salvation. You will not be disappointed nor confounded to ages everlasting.
Young's Literal Translation
Israel hath been saved in Jehovah, A salvation age-during! Ye are not ashamed nor confounded Unto the ages of eternity!
Re: Isaiah 45:17, Peshitta, Mass, LXX, etc - gbausc - 02-04-2008
Shlama Akhi Yaaqub,
Even The Peshitta Tanakh has a beauty unlike the Hebrew text in some places, which has made me wonder if the Hebrew does not need considerable
correction from The Peshitta. It seems so much clearer, yet I must remember that it was probably translated by Christians who would naturally see things in the light of Yeshua and translate in that light.
Dave
Re: Isaiah 45:17, Peshitta, Mass, LXX, etc - Dawid - 02-08-2008
gbausc Wrote:Shlama Akhi Yaaqub,That makes me sick.
Even The Peshitta Tanakh has a beauty unlike the Hebrew text in some places, which has made me wonder if the Hebrew does not need considerable
correction from The Peshitta. It seems so much clearer, yet I must remember that it was probably translated by Christians who would naturally see things in the light of Yeshua and translate in that light.
Dave
Re: Isaiah 45:17, Peshitta, Mass, LXX, etc - yaaqub - 02-08-2008
gbausc Wrote:Shlama Akhi Yaaqub,
Even The Peshitta Tanakh has a beauty unlike the Hebrew text in some places,
I agree. The Pshitta Tanakh gives a much clearer understanding of the text than does the later Masoretic text.
gbausc Wrote:which has made me wonder if the Hebrew does not need considerable correction from The Peshitta.
I believe the Pshitta Tanakh gives us much closer view of the original, pre-Masoretic text (i.e., the Vorlage)
gbausc Wrote:It seems so much clearer, yet I must remember that it was probably translated by Christians who would naturally see things in the light of Yeshua and translate in that light.
While I can understand what you mean by this, I believe it was translated by Jews and possibly later edited by Christians, especially the much later editions.
Dawid Wrote:That makes me sick.
???
Re: Isaiah 45:17, Peshitta, Mass, LXX, etc - Dawid - 02-08-2008
In answer to Yaaqub, the idea that Christians could make a translation better than the original makes me sick. A translation never touches the original, and that Christians could do better than Jews? Don't make me hurl.
Next, on multiple occasions when I've found a confusing reading in the Massoretic texts, I generally find that the LXX and POT are simply attempts to make sense out of the same reading that I found confusing. I have to agree with the rule laid out by textual critics, that the most confusing reading is generally the original. The others are almost always attempts to explain it, unless it is clearly a reading that has been garbled in translation. Edit the MT based on the POT? Perhaps in a few places. But by and large the MT is far more trustworthy.
Re: Isaiah 45:17, Peshitta, Mass, LXX, etc - yaaqub - 02-08-2008
Dawid Wrote:In answer to Yaaqub, the idea that Christians could make a translation better than the original makes me sick. A translation never touches the original, and that Christians could do better than Jews? Don't make me hurl.
Next, on multiple occasions when I've found a confusing reading in the Massoretic texts, I generally find that the LXX and POT are simply attempts to make sense out of the same reading that I found confusing. I have to agree with the rule laid out by textual critics, that the most confusing reading is generally the original. The others are almost always attempts to explain it, unless it is clearly a reading that has been garbled in translation. Edit the MT based on the POT? Perhaps in a few places. But by and large the MT is far more trustworthy.
Shalam Dawid,
I never said that Christians translated it. I said they probably edited the Pshitta Tanakh which had already been produced by Jews. I believe, with considerable evidence, that the Pshitta Tanakh is a translation (or targum) of the proto-Hebrew text, which was also the basis of the current Masoretic text.
The Pshitta Tanakh is produced by Jews and for Jews.
I agree that the LXX is helpful - not at all times, but helpful nonetheless. And the Masoretic as well, however, the currently used Masoretic text, especially editions read in synagogues in the West and used by many Christians, is full of errors, quite possibly thousands - literally.
Re: Isaiah 45:17, Peshitta, Mass, LXX, etc - Dawid - 02-08-2008
yaaqub Wrote:I don't think the Peshitta is that old. Most likely it is a closer relative of the MT than of the proto-Hebrew. It is most certainly based on a Targum, which is part of why I think it is dangerous. It is the job of a targum to explain the original text, and so the POT reads a lot into the text, and thus comes out with a clearer reading, but that is not necessarily a more accurate one.Dawid Wrote:In answer to Yaaqub, the idea that Christians could make a translation better than the original makes me sick. A translation never touches the original, and that Christians could do better than Jews? Don't make me hurl.
Next, on multiple occasions when I've found a confusing reading in the Massoretic texts, I generally find that the LXX and POT are simply attempts to make sense out of the same reading that I found confusing. I have to agree with the rule laid out by textual critics, that the most confusing reading is generally the original. The others are almost always attempts to explain it, unless it is clearly a reading that has been garbled in translation. Edit the MT based on the POT? Perhaps in a few places. But by and large the MT is far more trustworthy.
Shalam Dawid,
I never said that Christians translated it. I said they probably edited the Pshitta Tanakh which had already been produced by Jews. I believe, with considerable evidence, that the Pshitta Tanakh is a translation (or targum) of the proto-Hebrew text, which was also the basis of the current Masoretic text.
The Pshitta Tanakh is produced by Jews and for Jews.
I agree that the LXX is helpful - not at all times, but helpful nonetheless. And the Masoretic as well, however, the currently used Masoretic text, especially editions read in synagogues in the West and used by many Christians, is full of errors, quite possibly thousands - literally.
I was not replying to you with the comment about Christians doing better than Jews. I was referring to Mr. Bauscher's scandalous statement.
Now, I agree that the MT has errors. Possibly a great many. I think it needs to be edited based on the DSS, the POT, the LXX, and even the SP. However, I do not think that it is at all safe to use the POT alone, or to say that it is more accurate than the MT. It may be correct in some places where the MT is wrong, but I have no doubt in my mind that the MT is overall more accurate.
Re: Isaiah 45:17, Peshitta, Mass, LXX, etc - yaaqub - 02-08-2008
Shlama,
I don't put the Pshitta Tanakh in the same age as the "Vorlage" itself, but since it (the Pshitta Tanakh/OT) was completed by the first century, and the fact that the Masoretic was completed by the 10/11th century speaks volumes. That's a long time after the first century.
I think probably the safest Masoretic edition would be the Aleppo Codex and texts from the Yemenite tradition.
I agree, the DSS is a grand source for some of the earliest texts and assists in understanding the background of the period.
Re: Isaiah 45:17, Peshitta, Mass, LXX, etc - yaaqub - 02-08-2008
Shlama,
Here's an interesting quote from Sebastian Brock's book The Bible in the Syriac Tradition
Quote:"The Peshitta translation of Genesis, and indeed of the Pentateuch as a whole, is particularly rich in links with contemporary Jewish exegetical tradition, and this makes it likely that these books were translated by Jews rather than by Christians.... the Peshitta translation of Proverbs is also likely to have been the work of Jews in northern Mesopotamia; it subsequently came to be taken over by Syriac-speaking Christians and by later Jews (who lightly modified the dialect)"-- The Bible in the Syriac Tradition, by Sebastian Brock.
I can attest that the Pshitta Tanakh is still used by Assyrian Christians and Assyrian Jews to this day, as well as many communities referring to themselves simply as "Babylonian Jews" or "Babylonian Jewry" (which is comprised of several Jewish "clans" from Iraq, Iran, etc.). The Pshitta Tanakh/OT is held in the highest regard by Assyrian Jews. I can not say how the majority of Assyrian Christians in America feel on the matter, since I have heard many say they either can not read it or they never had a copy - which is sad. Hopefully that situation will turn around, God willing.
Ya'aqub
Re: Isaiah 45:17, Peshitta, Mass, LXX, etc - Dawid - 02-08-2008
One of my posts just disappeared. Rats.
Basically, I pointed out that the MT doesn't appear to have changed much in the last several thousand years of it's editing. Only minor changes, mainly coming from the standardization within the Massoretic family, were made. You can compare the BHK to the Aleppo codex and see that quite clearly. The Massoretic tradition is not really much older than the first century, if it is any older at all.
I also pointed out that the DSS have to be used carefully, as their vocabulary and grammar have clearly been updated. They are sometimes quite obviously an attempt to make the TN"K more readable for the first century reader.
Re: Isaiah 45:17, Peshitta, Mass, LXX, etc - yaaqub - 02-08-2008
Dawid Wrote:I also pointed out that the DSS have to be used carefully, as their vocabulary and grammar have clearly been updated. They are sometimes quite obviously an attempt to make the TN"K more readable for the first century reader.
Shlama Dawid,
I agree. I would especially caution people from utilizing the very few English (and other) translations of DSS. Only a select few in the past have had access to these. Now more of us have access to these originals than in the past, but many of the current English translations are lacking and much of the text based on theory - which in itself is dangerous.
Ya'aqub
Re: Isaiah 45:17, Peshitta, Mass, LXX, etc - yaaqub - 02-08-2008
Shlama,
Here are two additional quotes in reference to the various Masoretic editions:
"In Venice, circa 1524, a Tunisian scholar named Ya'acov Ben-Hhaim used the printing press to produce an edition of all 24 books of the canonized Bible, the first of its kind. With its inclusion of famous Bible commentators such as Rashi and Ibn Ezra, the Mikraot Gedolot Edition, as it became to be known, was accepted as the definitive and authoritative Torah text. After another printing in Warsaw, it became the standard for Orthodox communities. There is just one problem: the Mikraot Gedolot is highly inaccurate. Of that edition, the Five Books of Moses, the Prophets and the Writings together contain several thousands of errors. Not just of musical cantillations and vowels, but letters as well. Ya'acov Ben-Hhaim [Jacob ben Chaim] carried out his manuscript comparisons on texts that were within his geographical reach, but they were not accurate themselves. (It is interesting to note that the printing of the Mikraot Gedolot was executed under the aegis of a Christian printer, Daniel Bomberg, and Ben-Hhaim, who converted to Christianity. It is not clear, however, whether Ben-Hhaim's conversion was before or after 1524.)" (Jerusalem Post, "The True Torah?", by Robby Berman) - emphasis added.
"Which is the accurate version? Because the book is sacred, its text must be agreed upon and accepted unconditionally, without any discrepancies among the various versions. Yet this is not the case. It is true that there are no discrepancies that change the basic meaning of the text... However, there are differences between ancient Hebrew manuscripts of the Bible and, therefore, the same can be said about the printed editions based on these manuscripts. To enlightened readers, the recent attempts by some scholars to 'find' hidden messages by combining letters in the Bible seem pathetic, at best." (Hebrew Bibles, from 1488 to a new edition of the Keter Aram Tzova, by Nachuym Ben Zvi)
Re: Isaiah 45:17, Peshitta, Mass, LXX, etc - Dawid - 02-08-2008
yaaqub Wrote:What do you think of "The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible"?Dawid Wrote:I also pointed out that the DSS have to be used carefully, as their vocabulary and grammar have clearly been updated. They are sometimes quite obviously an attempt to make the TN"K more readable for the first century reader.
Shlama Dawid,
I agree. I would especially caution people from utilizing the very few English (and other) translations of DSS. Only a select few in the past have had access to these. Now more of us have access to these originals than in the past, but many of the current English translations are lacking and much of the text based on theory - which in itself is dangerous.
Ya'aqub
Re: Isaiah 45:17, Peshitta, Mass, LXX, etc - yaaqub - 02-08-2008
Dawid Wrote:What do you think of "The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible"?
Shlama,
I'm not that familiar with it - only from what others have said about it - mostly good if I recall. Do you have it? and if so, do you have Geza Vermes' Complete Dead Sea Scrolls? If so, how do they compare?
I just looked this up on Amazon and the reviews look good and I noticed someone said there are variants offered - which is good.
Ya'aqub
Re: Isaiah 45:17, Peshitta, Mass, LXX, etc - gbausc - 02-08-2008
Shlama All,
Akhi Dawid, you surprise me with your anger and "scandalous statement" comment. I sense a very strong anti-Christian bias in you that I was not aware of.
I never said the Peshitta Tanakh is more accurate overall, though I do wonder at times if that may be so, given the 9 centuries between them, and the fact that the sacred Name YHWH was changed 134 times to Adonai in the Hebrew text (according to the Massoretes) , whereas the Peshitta retains "Marya" in those places. I do hold The Massoretic text in high esteem; most likely it is the closest to the original. I just would like to see it as accurate as possible.
Many other like changes were noted by the Massoretes which have yet to be corrected in the Hebrew text itself, and The Peshitta bears witness to a first century text which had not been tampered with in that way. The Dead Sea Scrolls are no where near to containing the entire Tanach. As I recall, only two whole books are in any scroll (Isaiah & Habakkuk) , and some books, like Samuel, contain a text more like The LXX than that of the Massoretic. They can help, but there are many large gaps in their fragmentary testimony.
I also am reading and translating the inscriptions of the Psalms in Codex Ambrosianus which clearly indicate that the translator(s) was Christian, stating at the head of Psalm 23 : "About the communion table and to us now, spiritually ,an introduction of the new Christian people", and the very date of the destruction of Jersusalem by "Titus, son of Vespasian, 40 years after the ascension, & they have put Jerusalem to the sword and taken away the nobles, until this day", at the head of Psalm 74. Whoever wrote those notes was a believer in The Messiah Yeshua and wrote them in the times he describes, when Christianity was a recent development and the captivity of many elders of Jerusalem was still fresh in their minds and those captives were presumed to be alive.
There are so many references to the various Psalms as references to The Messiah and to His disciples by name, that together with the above inscriptions, it is quite tenable a position that Jews who converted to Yeshua as The Messiah in the first century translated the Peshitta Psalms,at the least. As such, we would have a first century Semitic witness to the Hebrew Tanakh in or near to Israel.
Where is all that anger coming from, Dawid?
Blessings,
Dave