06-04-2008, 09:46 PM
To S.P, jesus has taken sin away eternally, that the main point, he is our wonderful saviour.
Hi albion, welcome.
Hi albion, welcome.
Peshitta Forum
›
Communities
›
Nazarene/Messianic Judaism Forum
A Question For Torah Keeping Messianics
A Question For Torah Keeping Messianics
|
A Question For Torah Keeping Messianics
|
06-04-2008, 10:13 PM
To S.P, jesus is the sin -offering in the new covenant, so there is no need for other sin offerings in the new covenant. Eph 2-15-'And having abolished by his precious body the enmity between them, and he has abolished by his commandments the ordinances of the law'. The old covenant of the law and sacrifice, was the covenant which was fulfilled and done away with at calvary by the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, col 2:13-14, Heb. 8-10.
06-05-2008, 04:50 AM
sean Wrote:To S.P, jesus is the sin -offering in the new covenant, so there is no need for other sin offerings in the new covenant. Eph 2-15-'And having abolished by his precious body the enmity between them, and he has abolished by his commandments the ordinances of the law'. The old covenant of the law and sacrifice, was the covenant which was fulfilled and done away with at calvary by the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, col 2:13-14, Heb. 8-10. Shlama Akhi Sean: I am in full agreement with the scriptures you have quoted, as with the entire canon of scripture. Quoting scripture will only make me nod my head, yes, Amen!! Even Ezekiel and Zekhariah have the same effect on me, Sean. I believe the prophesies even though I don't fully understand how they will be fulfilled in their entirety. The Apostle paul, with whom I also agree said, "Now we see through a glass darkly". Now, the book of Revelation is full of surprises, isn't it? Personally, since we do not have an Aramaic original, I quote it rather reluctantly. However, a close study of the Book of Revelation "as is" seems to show that it is made up almost entirely from images that can be found in the Prophets. It would appear that the writer of Gilyana (Revelation) was a master of the Hebrew scriptures. What thinkest thou, Akhi Sean? Shlama, Stephen
06-05-2008, 09:42 PM
Hi Stephen, yes, hebrew and aramaic are sister languages. Why don't we ask god about all these things, like he, jesus would have asked the father, when he was a man on the earth. Proverbs 28-5'..those who seek the lord understand all good things.
06-06-2008, 03:11 PM
sean Wrote:Hi Stephen, yes, hebrew and aramaic are sister languages. Why don't we ask god about all these things, like he, jesus would have asked the father, when he was a man on the earth. Proverbs 28-5'..those who seek the lord understand all good things. Shlama Akhi Sean: What's your point? :o) "but when the spirit of TRUTH has come He will lead you into ALL TRUTH, etc...." (John 16:13) Also, have you taken a good look at <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.dukhrana.com">http://www.dukhrana.com</a><!-- w -->? Shlama, Stephen <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.dukhrana.com">http://www.dukhrana.com</a><!-- w -->
06-07-2008, 01:58 AM
Hi Stephen , the point is to pray about things, because God can give us more revelation on things.
Yes, I did go to your website. Can you get a copy of khabouris codex in book form, thank you, sean.
06-07-2008, 03:52 AM
Shlama All,
If Yochanan wants to merely present his Nazarene-Messainic point of view without challenge, I shall disappoint him, and others as well, I see. No matter. "Shlam" (Mark 1:15) from the root "Shlam" has the primary meaning -"to come to an end, be finished, concluded." , as entered in Smith's Compendious Syriac Dictionary. The CAL online Dictionary seems to have omitted this very important and comprehensive source in its references. CAL is not the most comprehensive or reliable lexicon available. Even if we translated it "fulfilled, or "completed", as others translate Mark 1:15- "Time is completed", the idea is the same. Since a particular time is not specified, it is a general statement about time itself approaching completion. If it refers to a time period or an age, it must be that He referred to the time of the kingdom of the world. In either case, our Lord said it was ending and giving way to another world: The Kingdom of God. Revelation 10 has the same idea: "Time shall be no more." The Aramaic is fine, here. Perhaps it grates on the theology of some, but so be it. Our Lord cared nothing and cares nothing about our opinions. He gives us the truth "straight up" without dilution. He also said "The Kingdom of God has arrived" in Mark 1:15. He was not merely saying it was near. But there are so many other places that say the first century was "the last days" and that "all these things" would come to "this generation" (Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30,Luke 21:32.) I quoted these, and yet they seem to count for nothing with those who read these posts. Among "all these things", it is written that "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."- Mark 13:31, Matthew 24:35, Luke 21:33 Who needs The Law and The Prophets in the Kingdom of Heaven? No one; certainly not in the sense that Israel did before The Messiah's coming. He came to write His Law in our hearts and minds, and He has done so in my heart and mind. I do not need to study "Halakha" and "Midrash", Talmud, "Torah" and "Kabbalah" and on and on. The dispensation of The Law is over. We are not under Law, but under God's Grace. The Law breeds self righteousness and pride. Grace gives us the righteousness of God in The Messiah and takes away boasting and pride, because we have nothing of which to be proud. Everything good is a gift from Him. Frankly the spirit of Messianism makes me sick, as I believe it makes The Lord sick ("I will vomit you up") Rev. 3:20. Lots of Gentile Christians also make God sick; I am not just picking on Nazarenes. People talk about themselves and their beliefs and knowledge; they seem to spend very little time talking about HIM! This tips me off to a person who does not know Him, like Nicodemus, when He came to Jesus by night. Romans 101 ?? Brethren, my heart???s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God???s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. He gives His covenant people a new heart and new mind and spirit, and He puts His Spirit into them. If you want Aramaic, then accept it when it is given. If you want Truth, then accept it when God's Spirit speaks it to your heart. If He does not, then either you are not being told the truth or you are not ready for it. Yeshua took away the sins of the world, conquered and destroyed death and has established the Kingdom of God in a New Heaven and New Earth. Those who know Him are citizens and inhabitants of that Kingdom now. The New has come; the old has passed away. Repent and believe The Gospel! -Mark 1:15 Dave
Get my NT translations, books & articles at :
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="https://aramaicnt.net">https://aramaicnt.net</a><!-- m --> and Lulu.com I also have articles at BibleCodeDigest.com
06-07-2008, 02:36 PM
sean Wrote:Hi Stephen , the point is to pray about things, because God can give us more revelation on things. Shlama Akhi Sean: As I quoted, I believe. The Spirit of GOD is the only One that can illuminate HIS WORD. I have been instructed to make HIS WORD plain for all. That is why I prayerfully and meticulously transcribed the Khabouris Codex and made it freely available. Unfortunately, at this time the Khabouris Codex Transcription is not published in printed form. Shlama, Stephen <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.dukhrana.com">http://www.dukhrana.com</a><!-- w -->
06-07-2008, 02:49 PM
gbausc Wrote:Shlama All, Shlama Akhi David: May I ascertain one thing from you. Are you speaking from a purely preterist point of view? Is there room, in your honest opinion, for the Second Coming of Christ and the millennial reign from restored Jerusalem? To be completely unambiguous about the Millennium, I am referring to the 1000 years that the book of Revelation refers to at the return of the Meshikha Yeshua (Revelation 20:4). Shlama, Stephen <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.dukhrana.com">http://www.dukhrana.com</a><!-- m -->
06-09-2008, 09:51 PM
Shlama Akhi Stephen,
I am speaking purely from a scriptural point of view; yes, it is preterist, since our Lord said 1978 years ago: "All these things shall come upon this generation." "All these things" include: Quote:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. All The Evangelists and Paul, as well as Peter, refer to the time in which they lived as "the last days" or "the end of all things" or "the end of the world". John also records the phrase, "I come soon"; "I come quickly"; "the time is near"; "things which must soon come to pass" (Rev. 1:1,3) 2Th 2:2 that ye be not soon agitated in your mind, nor be troubled, neither by word, nor by spirit, nor by letter, as coming from us, that lo, the day of our Lord is at hand. Nrmd hmwy yjm Ml ahd yh Ntwl Nmd Kyad atrga Nm alw axwr Nm alw atlm Nm al Nwhwtt alw Nwkynyerb Nweyztt lge ald 2Th 2:2 (One of Paul's earliest epistles) In the above verse, Paul warns not to think the Day of Our Lord has come" 2Ti 4:6 But I am soon to be immolated; and the time of my dissolution hath come. ajm artsad anbzw ana aqntm lykm ryg ana 2Ti 4:6 (Written late- probably AD 67, just before Paul's martyrdom) 1Pe 4:7 ?? But the end of all things approacheth: therefore be sober, and be wakeful for prayer. atwlul wryettaw wpknta anh ljm lkd atrx Nyd hl tyjm 1Pe 4:7 (Same verb as in 2 Thess. 2:2; written also around AD 67, just before Peter's martyrdom. Here the end of all things is near, or has even arrived; about 20 years earlier, it is not yet "at hand".) Re 1:3 ?? Blessed is he that readeth, and they who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep the things that are written in it; for the time is near. brq ryg anbz hb Nbytkd Nylya Nyrjnw adh atwybnd alm Nyemsd Nylyalw arqd Nml yhwbwj Re 1:3 (Revelation was almost certainly written during Nero's reign (AD 54-68) and before the great earthquake which destroyed Laodicea and Heiropolis and the environs in AD 66. Since "the time is near" here in Revelation, but not in Thessalonians, yet "near" also in 1st Peter, then it is safe to say that Revelation was written a little earlier than Peter, but not much; perhaps a couple of years earlier. The end would begin ("beginning of sorrows") with the coming of Titus, son of Vespasian Caesar, to Jerusalem in AD 67, and last 3 and a half years. Re 3:11 I come quickly: hold fast what thou hast, so that no one take thy crown. Klylk bon sna ald Kl tyad am wh dwxa adxm ana ata Re 3:11 (Literally: "I come at once") It is almost superfluous to say that Revelation could not have been written after AD 70, when our Lord fulfilled His promise to His disciples and to the Jews, and took out their temple, sacrifice,priesthood and revelation of prophecy; indeed, He removed their covenant life and ministry of The Law of Moses and had begun the work of spreading the New Covenant ministry of Grace through Peter and Paul to the Gentiles years before; Paul wrote around AD 64: "The Gospel has been preached in to the whole creation under Heaven." Colossians 1:23 Quote:And this gospel of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world for the testimony of all the nations and then the end will come.Matthew 24:14 Re 22:7 And, lo, I come quickly: Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book. anh abtkd atwybnd alm rjnd Nml yhwbwj lgeb ana ata ahw Re 22:7 Re 22:10 And he said to me: Seal not the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is near. brq ryg anbz anh abtkd atwybnd alm Mwtxt al yl rmaw Re 22:10 Re 22:12 12. ???Behold, I come at once, and my reward is with me, and I shall give to every person according to his work.??? hdbe Kya snlkl ltaw yme yrgaw adxm ana ata ah Re 22:12 Re 22:20 ?? 20.And when he testified these things, he said, ???Yes, I am coming soon.??? ???Come, LORD JEHOVAH Yeshua.??? ewsy ayrm at lgeb ana ata Nya Nylh dhom dk rma Re 22:20 If our Lord and Savior is still waiting to return to earth, then He is a liar, a cheat, a deceiver, a fraud and a false Messiah! And all who can read and have read the words written in the New Testament will agree that if Yeshua said these things and is The incarnate Truth and Son of God, then He has already returned to earth to His people and we are living in a New Age and Creation, called "The Kingdom of Heaven". I honestly have not studied the writings of Preterists. I have arrived at this position by studying scripture only. The Peshitta itself only serves to strengthen this position, especially in its evidence in the ms. colophon of Revelation describing John's exile by Nero to Patmos, which fairly clinches the argument of its date of writing to be before AD 70, and almost certainly is concerned with the imminent destruction of the Jewish capitol, polity and religion as it had existed for many centuries in and from The Holy City, but which had ever been a mere shadow of The True Body and Way of Life, Which is The LORD Messiah and His Church- The Jerusalem in Heaven, to which His people have arrived. But ye have come to Mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, the Jerusalem that is in heaven; and to the assemblies of myriads of angels;(Hebrews 12:22) So it is written; So I believe. As to the Millenium, it began the day Stephen was received into glory by our LORD Yeshua, Who stood up from His throne as Stephen's body was being crushed with large rocks by Paul's murderous Christ hating companions. Stephen lives and reigns with Him still in glory, waiting for the last martyr to come and join him, which I hope and believe will be rather soon- perhaps 30 years or so. How so? How can 2000 years = 1000 years? I have a theory, which appears to have mathematical merit. Take Stephen as the first martyr ("Those who were cut off for the testimony of Yeshua"): Quote:And I saw seats, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and these souls who were cut off for the testimony of Yeshua and for the word of God, and because they did not worship The Beast, neither its Image, nor received a mark between their eyes or on their hands, they lived and reigned with The Messiah for 1000 years; -Rev. 20:4 (Greek- "beheaded" is incorrect; The Aramaic Crawford ms. has "Ethpasaq"-"cut off", which is a Semitic term (another evidence for Aramaic primacy) for death or ostracism, depending on the context) All true believers are "cut off" in one way or another. Assuming the present age of the church lasts 2000 years, lets look at it from the vantage of the history of the martyrs. Stephen, the first martyr, will have been in glory from earth's time vantage point, for 2000 years; the last martyr from China or The Middle East, or elsewhere, will have been in glory 0 years. To average them, we add 2000 + 0 and divide the sum by 2, the number of martyrs. 2000/2 = 1000 years. Then do this for the second martyr and the next to last martyr, etc... The result will be the same. The people of God will reign over the earth in glory for a "Mean" 1000 years. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: --> If so, the present world system is pretty much on the threshold of eternity; the present world would be swallowed up by eternity within our lifetime. Just a theory, but I like it. Many blessings, Dave
Get my NT translations, books & articles at :
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="https://aramaicnt.net">https://aramaicnt.net</a><!-- m --> and Lulu.com I also have articles at BibleCodeDigest.com
06-09-2008, 11:18 PM
[quote="gbausc"]Shlama Akhi Stephen,
I am speaking purely from a scriptural point of view; yes, it is preterist, since our Lord said 1978 years ago: "All these things shall come upon this generation." "All these things" include...... Shlama Akhi David: You hold a non-traditional view of the Second Coming of Christ. For clarity, I reject all three polarized views whether Preterist, Historicist or Futurist. Having said this I accept some elements that cross the boundaries of each view and reunite them. Polarizations, such as (Preterist, Historicist and Futurist) are artificial and tend to bend scripture rather than to take the plain text as is. Rather, I recommend a thorough reading of the book of Daniel, and a careful reading of chapters 9 and 11 in comparison with the book of Revelation, Matthew chapter 24, I Thessalonians 4:14-18 and II Peter 2:7-13. In very fact Christ has not yet returned bodily to reign on earth from Jerusalem for 1000 years as is written in Revelation 19:11-20:15. We await His return patiently as is the tradition of the entire Christian Church. Now, since it would be a violation of forum rules to lay down any theological opinions concerning events in Christian History I will carefully restrict my post to the actual text of the TN"K and the Peshitta New Testament, but I will also quote from the Western Five as authoritative in this rebuttal, David. Isaiah 66 in its entirety does not end in 70 A.D. Moreover, this is not speaking just about "heavenly Jerusalem", but a time when Pul and Lud, Tubal and Javan and the coastlands exist. This is not speaking about a New Heaven and a New earth, but the continental earth that exists today, and has since it was created. Moreover, Jeremiah 31:35-39 clearly states that the landmarks will still be recognized when our LORD "returns bodily". How does one explain Ezekiel 47:10, and the drying of fish-nets by the once Dead Sea. Zechariah 8:4-6 has quite simply not taken place yet. These prophesies can not be explained away in an eschatological view that is purely preterist, David. In conclusion you have followed the Greek translation of "genea" in Matthew 24:34 which means "generation", instead of the Aramaic [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Fbr4[/font] "sharebta" which means "race, nation or "people" Shlama, Stephen <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.dukhrana.com">http://www.dukhrana.com</a><!-- m -->
06-10-2008, 12:31 AM
Burkta Akhi Stephen,
In very fact Christ has not yet returned bodily to reign on earth from Jerusalem for 1000 years as is written in Revelation 19:11-20:15. I agree with every word above except two: "not" and "on". Take out the "not" and change "on" to "over", and you shall have the New Covenant truth concerning Christ's return. The church is the bodily presence of Christ on earth and in Heaven; we reign now with Him, as "we have been raised to sit with Him in Heaven." Ephesians 2:6 Please read this from the Peshitta text. As to the prophecy in Zechariah 8, our Lord said He fulfilled it:"And Yeshua led his twelve and he said to them, ???Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem and all that is written in The Prophets about The Son of Man shall be fulfilled." -Luke 18:31 44."And he said to them, "These are the words that I spoke with you when I was with you, that everything that is written about me in The Law of Moses and in The Prophets and in The Psalms must be fulfilled." 45. Then he opened their mind to understand the scriptures." -Luke 24 Lu 21:22 "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." And all the prophecies of Daniel and Ezekiel are fulfilled; so He said, and so I believe. Shlama, Dave
Get my NT translations, books & articles at :
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="https://aramaicnt.net">https://aramaicnt.net</a><!-- m --> and Lulu.com I also have articles at BibleCodeDigest.com
06-10-2008, 01:43 AM
Shlama Akhi David:
Please re-read my last post. I have added to it. It was prematurely posted before I corrected it and I was eating dinner and didn't realize that I posted it. So, I continue....Please keep in mind that the word in the Peshitta New Testament, namely in Matthew 24:34 [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Fbr4[/font] means "race, nation or people" and has been incorrectly translated into Greek then English as "generation". Not only have you misquoted in Matthew 24:34 by using "generation", which by the way is the whole foundation upon which the classic preterist doctrine is postulated, but you have also added to your error by misunderstanding Yeshua's warning to his disciples. Indeed, Yeshua is the fulfillment of ALL the prophesies which concern him. The problem with this view arises when certain prophesies about him are eschatological events, the scope of which deals with "the end of days". Clearly, the destruction of the Temple was a type of "the end of days". Many in "that generation" even thought the same. However, when all was said and done, the world was still suspended in space, the moon and the sun still marked the days , weeks and seasons and the prophesy of Jeremiah 31:35 remains unfulfilled to this day. So, what was fulfilled. Were the prophesies concerning the Meshikha ALL fulfilled in the First Century. Yes and no? All that was fulfilled, the incarnate, virgin birth of the Son of God was fulfilled and marks the beginning of our calendar. Yeshua was crucified and he rose again according to Isaiah 53. The Temple was destroyed as he fortold during his ministry (Matthew 24). However, the NEW Heaven and the New earth have not appeared in reality, David. Therefore, you must reexamine your "extreme" preterist view. Either Christ has returned in "reality" or you have taken liberties with the text and erred concerning the Second Coming of our Meshikha. Shlama, Stephen <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.dukhrana.com">http://www.dukhrana.com</a><!-- m -->
06-10-2008, 03:20 AM
Shlama Akhi Stephen,
Where do you get your Aramaic? The first meaning of "Sharbatha" is "generation"; after that-"genealogy","family","tribe","race", "nation". If our Lord had meant, "this race (The Jews) will not pass away, until all these things come to pass", He would have been saying that those things would never come to pass, for God had promised: Quote:35 ?? Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:-Jeremiah 31 -Which is a promise that the Jewish people could not pass away until the ordinances of the moon and stars depart. Verse 36 says that if those ordinances depart from before God (the wording is important here), then Israel ceases to be a nation before God forever. This means that Israel can never cease to exist before God as a nation, as His ordinances are under His eternal control and maintenance. Therefore, it is nonsense for Yeshua to say "this race (of Jews) will not pass away until all these things be fulfilled."; that is tantamount to saying: "These things will never happen." Mt 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. Nnt Nnwy Nm brd ahw Nnwyd htwzwrkb wbt Nwnhd hnwbyxnw adh atbrs Me anydb Nwmwqn aywnyn arbg Mt 12:41 Mt 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. akrh Nwmyls Nm rytyd ahw Nwmylsd htmkx emstd aerad hyrbe Nm ttad hybyxtw adh atbrs Me anydb Mwqt anmytd atklm Mt 12:42 Does the above mean that the entire race of the Jews will be condemned in judgment, or that the generation of those who saw and heard their Messiah and rejected Him would be condemned? The answer is too obvious to require any thought. Matthew 23 34 ?? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: anydml anydm Nm Nwna Nwpdrtw Nwktswnkb Nwtna Nydgnm Nwhnmw Nwtna Nypqzw Nwtna Nyljq Nwhnm arpow amykxw aybn Nwktwl ana rdsm ana ah anh ljm 34 34 ?? ???Because of this, lo, I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes, and of them ye will kill and crucify, and of them ye will scourge in your synagogues, and will pursue from city to city; 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. axbdml alkyh ynyb Nwtljqd wh aykrb rb ayrkzd hmdl amdew aqydz lybhd hmd Nm aera le dsatad aqydzd amd hlk Nwkyle atand ankya 35 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. adh atbrs le Nyhlk Nylh Nytand Nwkl ana rma Nyma 36 Does this mean the entire race of Jews will be condemned for all the prophets who were murdered, or that the Jews who were alive in Jesus' time and during the apostles' time and rejected the message of the Gospel and The Messiah would be condemned? Again, the answer is too silly to require an answer. Next argument, please. Dave
Get my NT translations, books & articles at :
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="https://aramaicnt.net">https://aramaicnt.net</a><!-- m --> and Lulu.com I also have articles at BibleCodeDigest.com
06-10-2008, 03:27 AM
To Stephen, are their any other bibles, translated from the aramaic, and that have the old and the new testaments in one volume, that one is still able to carry around, for example in a bag. Thanks for your correspondence. Obviously, lamsa is not the most accurate translation, but before that I was using versions based on the Greek. If the bible is not in a handy size, I may just have to buy it anyway, and keep it at home.
|
|
« Next Oldest | Next Newest »
|
Users browsing this thread: 2 Guest(s)