A Question For Torah Keeping Messianics

[rungold315]

I've typed this question to many Messianic websites online, but nobody seems to know the answer to such a troubling question. I'm pretty sure my faith is flawless in all ways and the closest practice to what Yeshua supported, supports, and will support, maybe a few of you guys here can take a shot....


Hebrews 8:13 tells that the the new covenant is soon to come when the laws of God are in our hearts and minds, and the current one we are living in is growing old and decaying.

Now, this would make sense and be perfectly okay to understand if the book of Galatians didn't tell us that new covenants don't make old covenants void!

Gal. 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

So if the law which came through Moses had no effect on the prior covenant between Abraham and YHWH in which faith was the main factor, then why does the new covenant mentioned in Jermeiah/Hebrews make void the current one we are in now?

Thanks for your time, Daniel.

[Dawid]

Because there is a difference between when it is one covenant and then a law, and when it is one covenant and then another.
It is also quite clear that the Torah existed before Sinai. It was merely codified then.
However these are two covenants and one law, not one covenant and then one law. Does that make sense?

[Yochanan5730]

I've typed this question to many Messianic websites online, but nobody seems to know the answer to such a troubling question. I'm pretty sure my faith is flawless in all ways and the closest practice to what Yeshua supported, supports, and will support, maybe a few of you guys here can take a shot....


Hebrews 8:13 tells that the the new covenant is soon to come when the laws of God are in our hearts and minds, and the current one we are living in is growing old and decaying.

Now, this would make sense and be perfectly okay to understand if the book of Galatians didn't tell us that new covenants don't make old covenants void!

Gal. 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

So if the law which came through Moses had no effect on the prior covenant between Abraham and YHWH in which faith was the main factor, then why does the new covenant mentioned in Jermeiah/Hebrews make void the current one we are in now?

Thanks for your time, Daniel.

As far as Gal 3:17, read on to verses 18 and 19...

???For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but
God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. What, then, was the purpose of
the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise
referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.???

In the beginning Adonai only imposed one mitzvah...

"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat
of it you will surely die.??? - B'reshith (Gen.) 2:17

But, as we continue to read in B'reshith we see that the first transgression and sin took
place. Adam and Chavah broke the above command. From this point on Adonai revealed
His Torah to fallen humankind. There are both positive and negative mitzvot (divine
commands) both of which reveal Adonai's will to mankind. These mitzvot were given to
guide mankind because his nature was to do evil. Every one of us possess what is called in
Hebrew the "yetzer Hara", the evil inclination. From the beginning Adonai commanded
us to rule over sin and our evil inclination (the fallen nature) we inherited from our first
parents...

"If you do well, will you not be lifted up? If you don't do well, sin crouches at the door. It???s
desire is for you, but you are to rule over it." - B'reshith (Gen.) 4:7

The Torah of Adonai was added to show us what the definition of sin is and what to
avoid and what to rule over. And, we are still commanded to rule over sin today and
avoid it in our lives...

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" - Romans 6:1-2

A better promise was added and made available to us in the most recent covenant (which
was added to the compound covenant). This promise was the Ruach Hakodesh (Holy
Spirit) as a power and means to rule over sin (that is, if we don't quench the Spirit in our
life). But, the point of Galatians 3:18 is not that Torah is now done away with, but to
show that the promise of salvation was not through observance of the Torah...the promise
was to be through the seed of Avraham, through the seed of Yitzchak, and Ya'akov,
through the seed of David. The promise of salvation was to come through Messiah,
Yeshua. The Torah shows us our need for Messiah, it show us that we have fallen short
of the glory of Elohim. It also describes the lifestyle of the redeemed.

have you been to a forum called Ahavath Elohim? it's my congregation's forum, we would love to have you join and ask anything you want.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://theloveofgod.proboards3.com/">http://theloveofgod.proboards3.com/</a><!-- m -->

Z'ev Yochanan

[sean]

Jesus also fulfilled the law, matthew 5:17-18 "do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets, I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them'.
When we accept jesus then the holy spirit comes into our heart, and he leads us into all truth.
Apparently jesus fulfilled the mosaic covenant(law,sacrifice, the priesthood, temple and the ten commandments) of the law by his death as the lamb of God. The covenant given to Abraham concerned God's promises of blessings. Also Israel constitutes people eternally bound to God by the covenant made to Abraham.
The sacrifice of jesus validated the promises of forgiveness which God had given to the Israelites under the old covenant of the law. God made Israel a nation under Moses, exodus 19-6, and entered into a covenant of law with Israel at the same time, exodus 24;1-8.
Christians are called the ' Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise', as the covenant promises made to Abraham are still in effect.

[Yochanan5730]

Jesus also fulfilled the law, matthew 5:17-18 "do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets, I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them'.
When we accept jesus then the holy spirit comes into our heart, and he leads us into all truth.
Apparently jesus fulfilled the mosaic covenant(law,sacrifice, the priesthood, temple and the ten commandments) of the law by his death as the lamb of God. The covenant given to Abraham concerned God's promises of blessings. Also Israel constitutes people eternally bound to God by the covenant made to Abraham.
The sacrifice of jesus validated the promises of forgiveness which God had given to the Israelites under the old covenant of the law. God made Israel a nation under Moses, exodus 19-6, and entered into a covenant of law with Israel at the same time, exodus 24;1-8.
Christians are called the ' Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise', as the covenant promises made to Abraham are still in effect.

buzzzzz, not entirely correct <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s --> what you are saying is that Yeshua said:

"do not think that i came to abolish the Torah or the prophets, i have not come to abolish them, but to do away with them." <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/huh.gif" alt="" title="Huh" /><!-- s -->

also you didn't complete the statement he made:

For, Amen I say unto you, that until heaven and earth shall pass away, one yod, or one point shall not pass from the law, till all come to pass.

last i checked, heaven and earth are still here <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/happy.gif" alt="" title="Happy" /><!-- s -->

he goes on to say:

Mat 5:19 Every one, therefore, who shall set loose one from these least commandments (in context, he's talking of Torah, not his discourse), and shall so teach the children of men, the least shall he be called in the kingdom of heaven: but every one who shall do and teach them, this one shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

his discourse was completely Torah Mid'rash, an explanation or completion thereof, not in the manner of ending, but in the manner of filling a glass half full the rest of the way, because it was incomplete, he added the finishing touches.

i have yet to find a scripture that says God's Torah is abolished, the Sabbath is no more, and other such things. there are none, only misunderstandings of scripture about certain things that seem to say that and concerning what it REALLY means to no longer be under Law.

in hebrews it says that there was a change in the priesthood, and as a necessity there was a change of the Torah. a change, not an abolishment. when Yeshua said "it is finished," on the Tzalav (Cross), he was speaking of the New Covenant being put into effect and that what was finished was the work, "the cutting", the shed blood poured out for the Covenant, the final Covenant to be sealed. it isn't until the last couple of chapters in revelation where he says it is finally all fulfilled.

in the prophecy of Yir'm'yahu (Jeremiah) concerning the New Covenant, it says that He (God) will put His TORAH inside of those who are of the New Covenant. Y'chez'kel (Ezekiel) also prophesied that God will give us a new heart, and fill us with his Spirit, and CAUSE US TO WALK IN HIS TORAH.

is God a liar concerning His New Covenant? to say the Torah is abolished is a grave mistake and big misunderstanding by antinomian (anti-Torah/Lawless) christianity, i think the scriptures need to be looked at a little closer by those proclaiming the Torah as abolished, especially when God has said time and time again, that it is perpetual, eternal, just, (not a curse, only those seeking salvation by Torah observance alone and the merit of their own deeds are under the curse).

here's something to consider...

scripture cannot be broken, Yeshua himself said this. do you believe this to be true? if so, then there are to be no contradictions in scripture, correct? and between the old and new testaments, there are no contradictions, none... do we agree? if so, i wanna give an example of something...

Paul says:
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

and:
Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

which one is correct? they both pertain to justification in their contexts.

also, though the faith is that of Av'raham, under the new covenant, what are you grafted into? (hint: Romans 11;Ephesians 2)

when faced with the two great commandments, love God with all the heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbour as yourself, do you ever stop to ask yourself "How can i love God today?" or "how can i show love to my neighbour today?" the Torah gives good wisdom and instruction for these things, the prophets expound upon such things: Isaiah: Be willing and obedient. willing and obedient to who or what? God and his Word, which is Torah. and God also says he holds it above even his own name!

what i find ironic though, is most anti-nomian christians fulfill torah in their daily lives, but when presented with the Sabbath they freak out lol i think it is wrong for christianity to say you have to do this and that to bear righteous fruit, and yet they will ignore God's Commandments and what he's promised concerning them. when you say dont drink or smoke, you are giving commandments, commandments that if looked closely in scripture aren't even scriptural. christianity has become the new pharisaical method of following commandments. they will obey non-scriptural, though seemingly righteous commandments of men, but throw out the Torah. just like the pharisees!

drinking: paul only said dont get drunk, he said nothing about never drinking. wine is good for you with the alcohol in it, it helps the little enzime dudes in your gut.

smoking: aint even mentioned. "oh but your body is a temple...etc" well there are 3 areas that refer to that. 2 speak of the congregation as a whole being the body, so anything defiling there would be false doctrine and such, which is what the scriptures say. the third is of an individual believer, but it is never read closely or paid attention to. "ALL SINS that a man may commit are OUTSIDE THE BODY, EXCEPT the sin of SEXUAL IMMORALITY which is against the body..." smoking isn't a sin against the temple, neither is drinking, ONLY sexual immorality according to plain scripture reading. granted, smoking isn't good for you, but neither is that ham sandwich with extra mayo and deep fried chips peeps be eatin

am i preaching too much? sorry lol, oh, if it seems i was getting heated in this or like i was being a jerk, please believe me, it wasn't my intention, i'm just giving you our (Meshichi'im) point of view. so let's be friends <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

when it comes down to it, we are one in Mashi'ach, i only ask that you truly consider and pray about God's Torah, which is erroneously called "Law". and i really mean it, pray about it, let His Spirit talk to you about it. Torah literally means "Instruction", like that thing you get in a new eloctronic toy that shows you how to work it. well, God's Torah shows us what Righteousness looks like, as well as our sin condition. we are not saved by Torah observance, that's what it means by not being under the Law. however, we are still obligated to fulfill God's Law in our everyday lives: love him with all the heart soul mind strength and love your neighbour; upon these two do all the Torah and Prophets REST, not ARE REPLACED BY. 1 John says that sin is the transgressing of God's Commandments, if we are living a life in pursuit of abstaining from sin, then it is that we are in pursuit of a life filled with the beauty of Torah, and as John says, "His commandments are not burdensome" which means that they are not a yoke too heavy to bear as some misinterpret Paul saying to Peter.

and observing the commandments of God promises blessing <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s --> (Deuteronomy chps 28-30), and before you say, well these only pertain to Israel, look at the references given to you about what you are grafted into. <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s -->

Much Love In Yeshua/Jesus,
Z'ev Yochanan

[gbausc]

Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
(No more Law and Prophets after John. We should be preaching The Kingdom of God.)
And he said, ???Time is coming to an end. The Kingdom of God has arrived. Repent and believe in The Good News.???
Is it still coming to an end?
The old order of the old Covenant is dead and gone. Mark 1:15

For, Amen I say unto you, that until heaven and earth shall pass away, one yod, or one point shall not pass from the law, till all come to pass.

last i checked, heaven and earth are still here

Check again; but check the scriptures:
Mt 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
(The Disciples believed that the destruction of the temple would mean the end of the world. Our Lord never contradicted that conviction.)

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
(See Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.)
So much for when the end came.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect???s sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Hebrews 1:2 And in these last days he has spoken with us by his Son, whom he ordained The Heir of all things, and by him he made the universe.
Heb 9:26 otherwise, he must have suffered many times, since the commencement of the world; but now in the end of the world, he hath once offered himself in a self-sacrifice, to abolish sin.

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are faithful and true.
Nyhyty' 'tryr$w 'tnmyhm 'lm Nylh bwtk yl rm'w lk 'n' dbv 'tdx 'h 'ysrwk lv btyd yl rm'w tlz'w5

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. Ngm 'yx 'ymd 'nyv Nm lt' 'n' 'hcdl 'mlwsw 'ty$yr wt 'n'w Pl' 'n' ywh yl rm'w6
Rev. 21:5,6
22 But ye have come to Mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, the Jerusalem that is in Heaven; and to the assemblies of myriads of Angels;
23 and to the church of the first-born, who are enrolled in Heaven and to God the judge of all; and to the spirits of the just, who are perfected;
24 and to Jesus, the Mediator of the new covenant; and to the sprinkling of his blood, which speaketh better than that of Abel.
25 Beware, therefore, lest ye refuse to hear him who speaketh with you. For if they escaped not, who refused to hear him who spake with them on The Earth, how much more shall we not, if we refuse to hear him who speaketh with us from Heaven?

2Co 5:13. For if we are insane, it is for God, and if we are conventional, it is for you.
14. For the love of The Messiah compels us to reason this: The One died in the place of every person; so then every person died with him.
15. And he died in the place of every person, that those who live would not live for themselves, but for The One who died for their persons and arose.
16. Now therefore, we do not know a person by the body, and if we have known The Messiah in the body, from now on we do not even know him so.
17. All that is in The Messiah is therefore The New Creation; the old order has passed away to such.
18. And everything has become new from God ??? he who reconciled us to himself in The Messiah, and he has given us the Ministry of the reconciliation.
19. For God was in The Messiah- he who reconciled the universe with his Majesty, and he has not accounted their sins to them and has placed in us our own message of the reconciliation.
20. We are Ambassadors therefore in the place of The Messiah, and as if he who is God requested of you by us in the place of The Messiah, we beseech you therefore: ???Be reconciled to God.???
21. For he who had not known sin made himself to become sin in your place, that we would become the righteousness of God in him.


Ga 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

What about scripture from 2 Peter that says "But we, according to his promise, expect new heavens, and a new earth, in which righteousness dwelleth."?

Peter and Paul were both martyred around AD 67, just about 3 years before the destruction of Jerusalem and "the end of the world". All scripture books were completed before that time. Since then, no Temple, no sacrifice, no Levitical Priesthood, no Law of Moses observance in Jerusalem.

Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Heb 12:28 Since, therefore, we have received a kingdom that is unshaken, let us grasp the grace whereby we may serve and please God, with reverence and fear.

Yes, I know this sounds nuts. That's one sign of eternal Truth. It always sounds nuts at first.

But it is scripture, and not man's doctrine.

So if above scripture teaches that the end has come, how many more ends can be left?

Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

2Co 5:13. For if we are insane, it is for God, and if we are conventional, it is for you.

Yours insane for God,

Dave Bauscher

[sean]

To yochanan, how did you come to the conclusion that I said that jesus did away with the law, I never said that. Be careful what you accuse people of.
Jesus did do away with the sin-offering and all the other sacrifices, as by his blood we are cleansed from all sin.

[Yochanan5730]

To yochanan, how did you come to the conclusion that I said that jesus did away with the law, I never said that. Be careful what you accuse people of.
Jesus did do away with the sin-offering and all the other sacrifices, as by his blood we are cleansed from all sin.

in doing away with the sin offering, like i said, there is a change in the priesthood and Torah, apparently you didn't read my post all the way through. but also, according to Ezekiel's prophecy, when Messiah returns he will re-institute the sacrificial system.

you are correct, i do apologize, i should watch my "accusations" even though when you said: "Apparently jesus fulfilled the mosaic covenant(law,sacrifice, the priesthood, temple and the ten commandments) of the law by his death as the lamb of God." it just seemed like an anti-nomian twist of scripture, i am sorry.

in Yeshua,
Z'ev Yochanan

[Yochanan5730]

Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
(No more Law and Prophets after John. We should be preaching The Kingdom of God.)
And he said, ???Time is coming to an end. The Kingdom of God has arrived. Repent and believe in The Good News.???
Is it still coming to an end?
The old order of the old Covenant is dead and gone. Mark 1:15

you have misquoted that scripture from both Aramaic and Greek, it doesn't say the "time is coming to an end", but simply that it is coming to its fruition, wholeness or fullness, even peace (Sh'lema), not to an ending. when we are made whole (sh'lema) in Messiah, we are not ended, no, we move forward. it's a cup needing to be filled the rest of the way ~ to an end? or, to a new beginning of a new covenant? it doesn't quite say, does it? yes it does, repent and believe in the B'sorah (good news)! it is a new beginning under a new covenant in which the Torah is written in our hearts, the TORAH, scripture cannot be broken. it is a new beginning of peace (sh'lema) between humanity and the Living God <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/happy.gif" alt="" title="Happy" /><!-- s -->

if the prophets are no more, then the Olam ha ba (world to come) has been fulfilled. you cannot say that this statement refers to the Torah being abolished. if you say it refers to one being abolished, it of course refers to both, as you have already said, No more Law and Prophets after John. the prophets are not yet complete, therefore you are misunderstanding that verse of scripture. and if you are saying "no more prophets after John" means that there were no more people prophesying after John, you'll need to look at acts a little closer. is there a third understanding of what you mean by "no more prophets after John" that i am missing?

For, Amen I say unto you, that until heaven and earth shall pass away, one yod, or one point shall not pass from the law, till all come to pass.

last i checked, heaven and earth are still here

Check again; but check the scriptures:
Mt 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
(The Disciples believed that the destruction of the temple would mean the end of the world. Our Lord never contradicted that conviction.)

i've checked the scripture, prove that they believed this "conviction", you said to look at the scriptures, you just gave me a non-scriptural reference added to the scripture you presented in order to give the plain meaning of the verses a hidden or obscured meaning. whereas, as a Jew, i have never heard of this "conviction" concerning the destruction of the temple, can you show me some sort of reference pointing to this "conviction", since i am well aware that i do not know everything about judaism or the traditions. what i have heard is this: when refering to the end of the olam ha zeh (this world) it means the beginning fo the Olam Ha Ba, and for the sovereignty of Yis'rael to be restored through the Messiah. the state of Israel now is not that sovereignty restored, what i mean is when the Kingdom is restored under the sovereign rule of Messiah. this was something not feared, but hoped for.

with that , i cannot refute the rest of your presentation because it seemed to be based solely on this idea of the temple's destruction meaning the end of the world. please, give me a reference pertaining to this conviction of the disciples, or of Jewish tradition in general.

left handed and in my right mind in Yeshua, <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->
God's Blessings <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/happy.gif" alt="" title="Happy" /><!-- s -->
Z'ev Yochanan

[Yochanan5730]

ya know....

i am withdrawing from any debate on this subject. i did not join this forum for debates on anything, i joined in order to extend my learning of the Aramaic/Syriac language and the history of peshitta/peshitto. i have been reading through many threads here and learning so much, i am truly blessed by this forum and experience. i apologize for any uproar or upset i may have caused...

much love in Yeshua, our Mashi'ach Nagid!
Z'ev Yochanan

[sean]

To Yochanan, thank you for your apology, which I accept. I don't believe jesus will re-institute the sacrifices, Ezekiel may have been already fulfilled. On most other points I agree with you. In the book of peter it saids we are to offer sacrifices to God, as holy priests. Lately I feel inclined to read revelation more as that definitely pertains to the days we are living in.

[SP Silver]

To Yochanan, thank you for your apology, which I accept. I don't believe jesus will re-institute the sacrifices, Ezekiel may have been already fulfilled. On most other points I agree with you. In the book of peter it saids we are to offer sacrifices to God, as holy priests. Lately I feel inclined to read revelation more as that definitely pertains to the days we are living in.

Shlama Sean and Forum:
I don't mean to throw a monkey wrench in the gears but.....How is it determined that Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48 are already fulfilled? I will draw special attention to 43:1-5. Isn't this referring to a "vision" of the Millennial reign of Meshiakh. If this is so, then the sacrifices as well as a renewed Levitical priesthood will be restored just as Ezekiel has envisioned. Think of what the renewed sacrificial system means when it is under the direct authority of our returned Messiah Yeshua. It is a much fuller visible demonstration of redemption, not at all taking away from the importance of His absolute, and vicarious atonement for the sins of the world. Nor is the TORAH against faith. TORAH without faith is dead letter, as the body without the spirit is dead (Romans 2:29, 7:6, II Corinthians 3:6). We understand that we are not justified by keeping TORAH, but that is not the same as a negation of TORAH. The TORAH is our schoolmaster/mentor to lead us to salvation in the Messiah. After all, during the Apostolic age the Temple was still standing and the Levitical priesthood functional. Nevertheless, in the Millennium the Zadokite clan will be fully restored to service (Ezekiel 43:19).
Today, in light of Christian history, largely dominated by Gentiles, it is somewhat difficult to understand the scope of a return to the sacrificial system, but I have for some years believed Ezekiel 40-48 as well as Zechariah 14 to be referring to the Millennial reign of Yeshua Meshikha. Also, if TORAH is the absolute indictment of sin in the flesh, is it such a stretch of the imagination that the sacrifices are the greatest demonstrable symbol of the salvation of our LORD and Saviour. Imagine the whole world being under the rule/authority/LAW of Meshikha, who rules from Jerusalem in Millennial Israel. I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers here, but in light of our gracious Saviour's death and resurrection the restoration of the Levitical sacrificial system is a shadow, but nonetheless it has and does clearly demonstrate in real life and visual form and pattern the spiritual workings of Messiah's absolute atonement for sin, and his "tikkun/restoration" of the souls of redeemed humanity.

Shlama,
S. P. Silver,
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[sean]

Hi S.P, why would jesus bring back old temple sacrifices,when according to hebrews, we are sanitified once and for all time,hebrews 10-14-'For by one offering he( jesus) has perfected forever those who are sanctified'. That's my opinion.
In the new covenant we are priests, and one of the sacrifices is our own bodies, romans 12-1, and with our mouths we can worship, and praise God and intercede for others. We are the temple of god, and his spirit lives in us.
Anyway want I was trying to say in my last post was that there are many things in the old testament that I don't know. For example have certain chapters been fulfilled or not, that's why I want to study revelation more, because I believe that we are living in the last days, and that book is especially important for us.

[SP Silver]

Hi S.P, why would jesus bring back old temple sacrifices,when according to hebrews, we are sanitified once and for all time,hebrews 10-14-'For by one offering he( jesus) has perfected forever those who are sanctified'. That's my opinion.
In the new covenant we are priests, and one of the sacrifices is our own bodies, romans 12-1, and with our mouths we can worship, and praise God and intercede for others. We are the temple of god, and his spirit lives in us.
Anyway want I was trying to say in my last post was that there are many things in the old testament that I don't know. For example have certain chapters been fulfilled or not, that's why I want to study revelation more, because I believe that we are living in the last days, and that book is especially important for us.

Shlama Sean:
It is incorrect to read into the sacrifices that they ever took away sin eternally, right? In other words, the so-called "Old Testament Saints" were eternally saved by faith, the very same faith that was revealed by the event of Yeshua's death and resurrection. Animal sacrifices never can take away sin. However, as a shadow illustration they have helped us visualize eternal salvation, do they not? The writer of the book of Hebrews seems to point this out quite plainly. In Hebrews chapter 5 Meshikha is compared with Melkhizedek and in Hebrews chapter 8 Meshikha is compared with the Levitical High Priest. This comparison is used to help us understand salvation. Enter Ezekiel's as yet unfulfilled prophesy. In the Millennial reign of our Meshikha Yeshua the nations will observe the sacrifices and from them will be born generation after generation of new believers. Salvation will be common-place, not just a remnant as it is this day. Today very few, proportionally to the poulation of humanity, come to a saving knowledge of salvation. However in the millennium this ratio will change dramatically. How are we to understand Isaiah 65:20? I understand that this means that it will be rare to find a sinner that lives to be 100 years old and does not turn to Mashikha. Not only are people going to naturally live longer after the return of our Meshikha but a longer time will also be given to come to a knowledge of salvation. As you, I am only trying to understand what is written without adding or subtracting from the intrinsic meaning.

Shlama,
S. P. Silver
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[*Albion*]

Dear Yochanan,

Don't let Bauscher pull you into meaningless debates.

He WILL do this with joy, because he loves to argue, I honestly feel that he THINKS that this will show him as the great P'shitta scholar, that he THINKS he is.

"A legend in his own mind......".

Keep the Faith Yochanan.

Shlama, Albion

ya know....

i am withdrawing from any debate on this subject. i did not join this forum for debates on anything, i joined in order to extend my learning of the Aramaic/Syriac language and the history of peshitta/peshitto. i have been reading through many threads here and learning so much, i am truly blessed by this forum and experience. i apologize for any uproar or upset i may have caused...

much love in Yeshua, our Mashi'ach Nagid!
Z'ev Yochanan