Isaiah 45:17, Peshitta, Mass, LXX, etc

[Dawid]

I am not anti-Christian. I am extremely anti-Christianity, if you understand the distinction. I hate Christianity. With a passion. I do not think that no Christian could create a beautiful translation. My only objection was to your post which implied "this is so beautiful, which would make sense because it was translated by a Christian" implying both that a Jew could not, and that any Christian would, both of which are ridiculous, to say the least.
I hate Christianity simply because in Christianity I was lied to and I was rejected. I hate Christianity because it has murdered countless Jews, Muslims, and others. I hate it because it is corrupt. Need I give any more reasons?

I agree that the POT should be used in textual criticism of the MT. However, I think that it should be used with utmost caution in places where the MT is unclear. Most of the time it attempts to make sense of these difficult passages by altering them, which is a huge mistake. It should, instead, delve into the text and try to find what it actually means.

As Yaaqub pointed out, many of the readings are clearly Jewish. It was, at least, translated by a N'tzari or Evioni, and was probably translated in portions like the LXX, rather than all at once. I think the Torah at least predates the Messiah.

It is coming from pain.

Shalom,
Dawid

[Thirdwoe]

While it is certainly true that there is terrible corruption to be found in many doctrines and practices of the organized religious institutions of our generation and those who have preceded it (and this is true not only of Christendom, but as well of Islam, and Judaism not to mention all the others that may exist....) it must be understood, that this has always been the case down till our time and will continue to be so until the end of the ages. And while there is ample evidence of such, to level charges against the liars, deceivers, murders, and those that falsify the truth in the name of religion for their own wicked gains. It will one day be judged to the full.

But not now, not yet..."Therefore you should judge nothing before the time, until Mar-YAH comes, who will then shine the light on the secrets of darkness and reveal the imaginations of the heart..." 1st Corinthians 4:5

Yeshua was also rejected by the church he attended (as was all his disciples) and after a number of failed attempts to murder him, the religious leaders got the help of the Roman government to do away with him...using lies to do their evil deed. This was nothing new for them. The Jewish religious leaders down through the ages had murdered God's messengers sent to them to wake them up and to call them to repentance for their idolatries and whoredoms...

Yeshua says: "Woe to you Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, who build the tombs of The Prophets and adorn the tombs of the righteous! And you say, ???If we had been in the days of our forefathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of The Prophets.??? Therefore you testify against yourselves that you are the children of those who murdered The Prophets. So fulfill the standard of your forefathers. Snakes, offspring of vipers! How will you escape from the judgment of Gehenna?

Because of this behold, I am sending to you Prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will murder and you will crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and you will persecute them from city to city So that all the blood of the righteous may come upon you that has been shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel, even unto the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered in the midst of The Temple and the altar.

Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that murdered The Prophets and stoned those who were sent to it! How many times have I desired to gather your children, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing! Behold, your house is left to you desolate! For I say to you that you will not see me from now on, until you will say, ???Blessed is he who has come in the name of Mar-YAH.???

We see here that Yeshua was exposing the religious leaders of his day and those of their forefathers for the great wickedness that they were guilty of....

God???s people where expelled from the Churches/Temple/Synagogues of their days just as it is today...It says here where Yeshua is quoted above that it was because of their murders, that there would be sent to them more Prophets and wise men and scribes (who would be followers of Yeshua) and that they would also be rejected and murdered and that in doing so they would be sealing their own fate and be bringing upon them the judgment of God.... And it was so...The religious Jews of Judaism persecuted the followers of Yeshua for 40 years...then.... their house became desolate, as it is to this day....

Did Yeshua hate them? No, he loved them and warned them time and time again to repent of their wickedness.... and he prayed to the Father for them and asked Him to forgive them, so that judgment would not come upon them.... but they would not take heed and turn from their wickedness and God's righteous judgment fell upon them.

And this will be the case again....

"But there were also lying Prophets among the people, as there shall be lying teachers also among you, those who bring destructive heresies and deny the Lord who bought them, while bringing upon themselves speedy destruction. And many will go after their abominations, because of which, the way of truth will be blasphemed. And by greed and fictitious accounts they will make profit among you, these whose judgment from the first has not been idle and their destruction does not sleep." 2 Peter 2: 1-2

As it was in the beginning, so shall it be unto the end of the age.... and then it will cease.

"The field is the world but the good seed is the children of the Kingdom and the tares are the children of The Evil One. The enemy who sowed them is Satan, but the harvest is the end of the world and the reapers are the Angels. Therefore, just as the tares are gathered and burn in the fire, so it will be in the end of this world. The Son of Man will send his Angels and they will select from his Kingdom all of those stumbling blocks and all of those evil doers." Matthew 13:38-41

What is our response to them?

"But I say to you, love your enemies and bless the one who curses you, and do what is beautiful to the one who hates you, and pray over those who take you by force and persecute you. So that you will become the children of your Father who is in Heaven, for his sun rises on the good and upon the evil and his rain descends on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what benefit is it to you? Behold, do not even the Tax Collectors the same thing? And if you pray for the peace of your brethren only, what excellent thing are you doing? Behold, are not even the Tax Collectors doing the same thing? Be therefore perfect, just as your Father who is in Heaven is perfect.???

???Blessed are you, whenever men shall hate you and shall separate you and shall insult you and shall cast out your name as evil for The Son of Man's sake. Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, for your reward is great in Heaven, for so were their fathers doing to The Prophets.???

So be it.

[Dawid]

Thirdwoe, I already said that I do not hate Christians. I do not hold it against the people who lied to me or rejected me. That would not be like the Messiah. However, I despise the organization that taught them to be that way. I hate anything that leads people astray. The people I love. The religion I hate.

I also think that your eschatology is off, when you say that we are not to judge. Hebrews tells us that if we are to judge the world, can we not judge small matters? This is all based on Yeshua's teaching to "judge not that you be not judged." You only judge in such a way that you desire to be judged, because you will be judged with the same judgment. You will condemn yourself. That is the teaching on judgment.

Shabbat Shalom,
Dawid

[Thirdwoe]

I do not say that you hate the people, nor that you may not judge what is of Truth or of lies...Indeed we can and must....

And yes, we are to love the people and pray for them that God may have mercy upon them and open their religiously blinded eyes.

As to the Scripture that speaks of not judging until Messiah returns to exact God's judgment upon these religious institutions and their leaders who blind people from the truth with their deceptions....

Yeshua said: ???The Kingdom of Heaven is likened to the man who sowed good seed in his field. And while men slept his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat. And when the grass sprouted it produced fruit; then the tares also appeared. And the servants of the lord of the house approached and said to him, ???Our lord, did you not sow good seed in your field? From where are the tares in it???? But he said to them, ???An enemy has done this???; his servants said to him, ???Do you want us to go select them out???? But he said to them, ???When you collect the tares, would you not uproot the wheat with them???? ???Let both grow together until the harvest and in the time of the harvest, I shall say to the reapers, ???Select out the tares and bind them into bundles, but gather the wheat to my grainary.??? Matthew 24:30

Blessings to you.

[Dawid]

The level of judgment and the executor of said judgment mentioned in the above parable is not the same as what is being discussed here.

[Thirdwoe]

"One day this war is going to end."

And so will the pain...

May "The God of hope fill you with all joy and peace by faith, that you will overflow in his hope by the power of The Spirit of Holiness."

Be blessed in Him.

Amen.

[gbausc]

Shlama Akhi Dawid,

You wrote:

My only objection was to your post which implied "this is so beautiful, which would make sense because it was translated by a Christian" implying both that a Jew could not, and that any Christian would, both of which are ridiculous, to say the least.

You misunderstood. The translators were most likely Jewish disciples or believers in Yeshua, first of all. A Christian translator would be much more likely to see reference to The Messiah Yeshua in some prophecies than a non-believing Jew, n'est ce pas? All I meant was that a Christian would be likely to translate with a Christian bias, thus making the translation more appealing to Christians. It is unavoidable. It also makes the translation less reliable, due to that same bias. The very thing that makes it appealing to me also makes it somewhat suspect, which is why I introduced the caveat, "but we must remember that the translator(s) was Christian..." If The Peshitta Tanakh were translated by a Jew before Christianity had arisen, the translation would probably be more objective in many places where alleged Messianic prophecy is concerned.

"And likewise, all who choose to live in the fear of God, in Yeshua the Messiah, will be persecuted." 2 Tim. 3:12 Welcome to the club. I and my wife and family have been kicked out of 5 churches (& 3 parsonages) and a Christian Mission, as well as two Christian schools for our scriptural beliefs and principles. I have seen the greatest evil I have ever known in Christian churches and in Christian leaders. This is all prophesied in Thessalonians and Timothy, as well as Revelation and elsewhere. Much, if not most of what is called Christian and Christianity is false and a counterfeit. Don't let that blind you to the core reality Satan wishes to turn us away from. All the falsehood is a decoy or camouflage to distract people. Stand for the truth, but do not give up the fight against the lie. The truth will win out. The Spirit of The One Who is in us will prevail over the world.

Heb 12:15 And be careful, lest any be found among you destitute of the grace of God, or lest some root of bitterness shoot forth germs, and trouble you, and thereby many be defiled: Murdock

"Blessed are ye, when they revile you and persecute you, and speak every evil thing against you, falsely, on my account.
At that time, rejoice and be glad: for your reward in heaven is great. For so they persecuted the prophets that were before you."

Be glad my brother! Rejoice and be glad!

Love your enemies; and bless him that curseth you; and do good to him that hateth you; and pray for them that lead you in bonds, and that persecute you:
that ye may be the children of your Father that is in heaven... Mat. 5:44,45

You are chosen.

Blessings,

Dave

[Thirdwoe]

How can we say that a Christian translator would or could not have done/do a better job of translating the Old Testament Scriptures than a Non-Christian Jew?

Just because he is a Christian????

A Jew can be just as biased in their translating than a Christian translator can be.

According to the Scriptures themselves, the Spirit born believer in Yeshua is what a real Jew should be anyway. Romans 2:28-29

I say if the Non-Christian Jew is not filled with the Spirit of God and not anointed by God for the task, then he is unfit to do so, as well as the carnal Christian for that matter....

[Dawid]

Hacham Dave,
Thank you for the empathy and encouragement, as well as the clarification. All of those help. As I'm sure you've noticed I sometimes jump to conclusions, and I am rather uptight, quick to lose my cool. I need to chill out.

Rafa,
I will not be associated with the bloody and blasphemous history that is Christianity. You know my reasons, so I need not go there. I do not hate the people, and I am not divisive. I reject the institution and I attempt to pull people together. As long as we have the Christian institutions we cannot be pulled together because church structure tends to push different denominations apart. We also develop the problem of men like akhan Dave being kicked out...how is that a recipe for unity?
Yes, we should focus on obedience. This is why I do not make a fuss over halachic issues, because I know I will disagree with you on the interpretation of various mitzwoth. That should not be a huge issue. The issue should not be whether you or I wears a mixture of polyester and cotton, but whether or not we are both following the command to not mix wool and linen to the best of our understanding. If we disagree over the definition of "work" it is alright as long as we are both refusing to work on Shabbat.
But how can we be unified with apostates? How is this possible?

[Dawid]

I think that those are only the extension of R. Yehoshu'a's teaching in Luke 18. You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, and you shall not bear false testimony, and honor your father and mother. This is clearly the other part of the first things, from the context in which the Rebbe stated them.
But what about a blasphemer?

[Christina]

I think that those are only the extension of R. Yehoshu'a's teaching in Luke 18. You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, and you shall not bear false testimony, and honor your father and mother. This is clearly the other part of the first things, from the context in which the Rebbe stated them.
But what about a blasphemer?

Me personally I always let Scripture do the talking, as I'm extremely fearful to put myself in the place of those in authority (YHWH and His Son). When I deal with such people, I simply say to them: "here's what the word of God says, you can choose to submit to it or rebel against it, if you choose to submit good, if you choose to rebel there will be consequences." Then I leave it that, I've done my bit (warn them) and from there I allow the Almighty to take over.

[abudar2000]

shlom lokh oH Dave,

Shlama Akhi Dawid,

You misunderstood. The translators were most likely Jewish disciples or believers in Yeshua, first of all. A Christian translator would be much more likely to see reference to The Messiah Yeshua in some prophecies than a non-believing Jew, n'est ce pas? All I meant was that a Christian would be likely to translate with a Christian bias, thus making the translation more appealing to Christians. It is unavoidable. It also makes the translation less reliable, due to that same bias. The very thing that makes it appealing to me also makes it somewhat suspect, which is why I introduced the caveat, "but we must remember that the translator(s) was Christian..." If The Peshitta Tanakh were translated by a Jew before Christianity had arisen, the translation would probably be more objective in many places where alleged Messianic prophecy is concerned.

Dave

My understanding of the Peshitta OT was that it was produced prior to the Christian era, and based on a proto-Masoretic Text. It seems to be the one that was most favoured by the Syriac-Aramaic speaking community (msheeHoye), and eventually ended up being the OT Text of the Peshitta.

I'm not expert on the Peshitta OT, so I can't bring you proof, but this is what I was told in the past.

push bashlomo,
keefa bar morun

[yaaqub]

My understanding of the Peshitta OT was that it was produced prior to the Christian era, and based on a proto-Masoretic Text. It seems to be the one that was most favoured by the Syriac-Aramaic speaking community (msheeHoye), and eventually ended up being the OT Text of the Peshitta.

Shlama,

True. Paul Younan attests to this fact in a comment from the archives where he said:

The LXX (and Peshitta OT) was made from a Hebrew original that differed in places from the modern Masoretic. The Masoretic is a late work, far surpassed in age by the LXX and the Peshitta OT.

The Peshitta Tanakh is a JEWISH work, not a Christian work! ...

It's a JEWISH work.

The Peshitta Tanakh is a Targum, just like any other Jewish Aramaic Targum (Onkelos, Yonathan, etc.) It was a Targum in the Aramaic dialect of the hundreds of thousands of Mesopotamian Jews in modern-day Syria, Turkey, Iraq and Iran. (who stayed behind in the Babylonian Captivity). Just because Christians later adopted it as their own, does not mean it is a "Christian work"! Christians later adopted the Peshitta NT as well, which also was a Jewish work originally!

and that the Church of the East

uses the Peshitta OT which it inherited from Babylonian Jewry.

[gbausc]

Shlama Abudar,

On the previous page of posts, I wrote:

I also am reading and translating the inscriptions of the Psalms in Codex Ambrosianus which clearly indicate that the translator(s) was Christian, stating at the head of Psalm 23 : "About the communion table and to us now, spiritually ,an introduction of the new Christian people", and the very date of the destruction of Jersusalem by "Titus, son of Vespasian, 40 years after the ascension, & they have put Jerusalem to the sword and taken away the nobles, until this day", at the head of Psalm 74. Whoever wrote those notes was a believer in The Messiah Yeshua and wrote them in the times he describes, when Christianity was a recent development and the captivity of many elders of Jerusalem was still fresh in their minds and those captives were presumed to be alive.

There are so many references to the various Psalms as references to The Messiah and to His disciples by name, that together with the above inscriptions, it is quite tenable a position that Jews who converted to Yeshua as The Messiah in the first century translated the Peshitta Psalms,at the least. As such, we would have a first century Semitic witness to the Hebrew Tanakh in or near to Israel.

Please consider the above testimony from the most important Peshitta Tanakh manuscript in existence, concerning the time and translators in which The Psalms, at least, were translated.

Blessings,

Dave

[yaaqub]

On the previous page of posts, I wrote:

I also am reading and translating the inscriptions of the Psalms in Codex Ambrosianus which clearly indicate that the translator(s) was Christian, stating at the head of Psalm 23 : "About the communion table and to us now, spiritually ,an introduction of the new Christian people", and the very date of the destruction of Jersusalem by "Titus, son of Vespasian, 40 years after the ascension, & they have put Jerusalem to the sword and taken away the nobles, until this day", at the head of Psalm 74. Whoever wrote those notes was a believer in The Messiah Yeshua and wrote them in the times he describes, when Christianity was a recent development and the captivity of many elders of Jerusalem was still fresh in their minds and those captives were presumed to be alive.

There are so many references to the various Psalms as references to The Messiah and to His disciples by name, that together with the above inscriptions, it is quite tenable a position that Jews who converted to Yeshua as The Messiah in the first century translated the Peshitta Psalms,at the least. As such, we would have a first century Semitic witness to the Hebrew Tanakh in or near to Israel.

Please consider the above testimony from the most important Peshitta Tanakh manuscript in existence, concerning the time and translators in which The Psalms, at least, were translated.

Blessings,

Dave

Shlama Dave,

This does not leave out the possibility of the Tanakh being adopted by a Christian community after it was already translated and then they added those superscriptions or subheadings to the text.

Is this particular edition available for sale by a Bible Society or other seller? I would personally like to read this for my own benefit. It would be interesting to pinpoint, if at all possible, the date in which these superscription were written, and if they were added later.

Ya'aqub