12-12-2003, 08:41 PM
Gentlemen,
I never said the Reformation still holds its original force. I also never said Martin Luther was a nice guy. For that matter, Peter was not a nice guy; he killed a man and his wife during a church service (by God's Spirit) !Shelicha Paul blinded a man for opposing him! Imagine the headlines about such revivals if they were to occur today!
Martin Luther evangelized Germany and published the Bible in the language of the people for the first time in their history. He also preached the gospel fearlessly in opposition to the Pope and nailed his 95 challenges to the church door at Wittenburg. Others did likewise in England, France, Switzerland , Italy and Sweden, until all Europe had
Bibles and the liberty to worship according to conscience.
Of course there were abuses. There were abuses in the first century church- read I & 2 Corinthians.
The Reformation gave us the Bible and the concept of the priesthood of the believer; The Bible and the liberty to worship as we choose; the Bible and the ability to read it and argue publicly about it; The Bible and the freedom to preach it; The Bible and the liberty to join one of a thousand churches or to worship in his home.
As far as a bad seed, we could argue that Pentecost was a bad seed on the same basis. The church was born at Pentecost and quickly degenerated into hundereds of sects
and a worldy bunch of lukewarm and careless "Christians".
Does that mean Pentecost was a bad seed?
If there had never been a reformation, we would still be living in the Dark Ages. We would have no Bible versions about which to disagree and no education to read one.
As far as The Church of The East and the Eastern Orthodox Church are concerned, if they had been obeying the Great commission, perhaps there would have not been "The Dark Ages". Is Apostolic succession a tradition of disobedience to God? Why hasn't the world heard of a Church of The East? I hadn't until two years ago.
I don't believe that church is any less guilty than any other church or in any less need of reformation.
If you guys can't see God's hand in the reformation, you need to open your eyes, or you will be doomed to miss seeing Him when He appears again.
At the judgment of the nations, The cry will be heard from both goats and sheep , "Lord, when did we ever see you..."? Matthew 25
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]00yg$ 0dh$ Mdq 0tb+ 0tydwt tydw0w tyrqt0 Nwhld Ml9ld 0yx Krd0w 0twnmyhd 0b+ 0nwg0b stkt0w [/font]12
13 ?? I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0tryps 0twdh$ $w+lyp-$wy+np Mdq dho0d wh 0xysm 9wsyw lk 0xmd wh 0hl0 Mdq Kl 0n0 dhom [/font]13
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0xysm 9wsy Nrmd hnylgl 0md9 0mwm 0ldw 0slw+ 0ld 0ndqwp yhwyr+td [/font]14
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0twrmd 0rmw 0klmd 0klm yhwdwxlb 0ntlyxw 0krbm 0hl0 yhwywxn hnbzb dyt9d wh [/font]15
The reformers risked their lives for Christ, some lost their lives in the cause. They gave us a great legacy. I don't need to agree with everything they said or did to see God's hand raising them up. They were men. We have a sad dearth of men today. Most of us are whiners and complainers. These men did something and they changed the world for the better. If you can improve on what they did, then do it; don't criticize great men.
By the way, name for me some men who did it right after 1400. If the Reformation was of the devil, where has God been for 2,000 years ?
Has He been confined to Persia for 20 centuries; and even there , within the walls of The Church of The East?(Oh , I forgot The Eastern Orthodox).
We should have understanding of the times and understanding of God's ways and works. I am having a hard time seeing understanding of those things in you guys, Chris and Craig.
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0twrmd 0rmw 0klmd 0klm yhwdwxlb 0ntlyxw 0krbm 0hl0 yhwywxn hnbzb dyt9d wh [/font]15
Did you know that the Lord appears more than twice?
Paul says here there are "times" yet to come.
I pray you will see those times and thus see The LORD Himself when He comes.
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]hnylgl wbx0d Nyly0l P0 0l0 yl dwxlb Nyd 0l 0n0k 0nyd wywhd wh 0mwyb yrm yl yhwy9rpnd 0twn0kd 0lylk yl ry+n 0sh Nmw[/font] 2Ti 4:8
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]hl Nyk$md Nyly0d Nwhyyxl 0zxtm Nyh+x 0ld Nynbz Nyd Nytrtd 00yg$d 0hjx xbd hmwnqbw brqt0 Nbz 0adx 0xysm P0 0nkh[/font] Heb 9:28
Grace be with you,
Dave B
I never said the Reformation still holds its original force. I also never said Martin Luther was a nice guy. For that matter, Peter was not a nice guy; he killed a man and his wife during a church service (by God's Spirit) !Shelicha Paul blinded a man for opposing him! Imagine the headlines about such revivals if they were to occur today!
Martin Luther evangelized Germany and published the Bible in the language of the people for the first time in their history. He also preached the gospel fearlessly in opposition to the Pope and nailed his 95 challenges to the church door at Wittenburg. Others did likewise in England, France, Switzerland , Italy and Sweden, until all Europe had
Bibles and the liberty to worship according to conscience.
Of course there were abuses. There were abuses in the first century church- read I & 2 Corinthians.
The Reformation gave us the Bible and the concept of the priesthood of the believer; The Bible and the liberty to worship as we choose; the Bible and the ability to read it and argue publicly about it; The Bible and the freedom to preach it; The Bible and the liberty to join one of a thousand churches or to worship in his home.
As far as a bad seed, we could argue that Pentecost was a bad seed on the same basis. The church was born at Pentecost and quickly degenerated into hundereds of sects
and a worldy bunch of lukewarm and careless "Christians".
Does that mean Pentecost was a bad seed?
If there had never been a reformation, we would still be living in the Dark Ages. We would have no Bible versions about which to disagree and no education to read one.
As far as The Church of The East and the Eastern Orthodox Church are concerned, if they had been obeying the Great commission, perhaps there would have not been "The Dark Ages". Is Apostolic succession a tradition of disobedience to God? Why hasn't the world heard of a Church of The East? I hadn't until two years ago.
I don't believe that church is any less guilty than any other church or in any less need of reformation.
If you guys can't see God's hand in the reformation, you need to open your eyes, or you will be doomed to miss seeing Him when He appears again.
At the judgment of the nations, The cry will be heard from both goats and sheep , "Lord, when did we ever see you..."? Matthew 25
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]00yg$ 0dh$ Mdq 0tb+ 0tydwt tydw0w tyrqt0 Nwhld Ml9ld 0yx Krd0w 0twnmyhd 0b+ 0nwg0b stkt0w [/font]12
13 ?? I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0tryps 0twdh$ $w+lyp-$wy+np Mdq dho0d wh 0xysm 9wsyw lk 0xmd wh 0hl0 Mdq Kl 0n0 dhom [/font]13
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0xysm 9wsy Nrmd hnylgl 0md9 0mwm 0ldw 0slw+ 0ld 0ndqwp yhwyr+td [/font]14
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0twrmd 0rmw 0klmd 0klm yhwdwxlb 0ntlyxw 0krbm 0hl0 yhwywxn hnbzb dyt9d wh [/font]15
The reformers risked their lives for Christ, some lost their lives in the cause. They gave us a great legacy. I don't need to agree with everything they said or did to see God's hand raising them up. They were men. We have a sad dearth of men today. Most of us are whiners and complainers. These men did something and they changed the world for the better. If you can improve on what they did, then do it; don't criticize great men.
By the way, name for me some men who did it right after 1400. If the Reformation was of the devil, where has God been for 2,000 years ?
Has He been confined to Persia for 20 centuries; and even there , within the walls of The Church of The East?(Oh , I forgot The Eastern Orthodox).
We should have understanding of the times and understanding of God's ways and works. I am having a hard time seeing understanding of those things in you guys, Chris and Craig.
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0twrmd 0rmw 0klmd 0klm yhwdwxlb 0ntlyxw 0krbm 0hl0 yhwywxn hnbzb dyt9d wh [/font]15
Did you know that the Lord appears more than twice?
Paul says here there are "times" yet to come.
I pray you will see those times and thus see The LORD Himself when He comes.
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]hnylgl wbx0d Nyly0l P0 0l0 yl dwxlb Nyd 0l 0n0k 0nyd wywhd wh 0mwyb yrm yl yhwy9rpnd 0twn0kd 0lylk yl ry+n 0sh Nmw[/font] 2Ti 4:8
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]hl Nyk$md Nyly0d Nwhyyxl 0zxtm Nyh+x 0ld Nynbz Nyd Nytrtd 00yg$d 0hjx xbd hmwnqbw brqt0 Nbz 0adx 0xysm P0 0nkh[/font] Heb 9:28
Grace be with you,
Dave B