"If scholars who’ve spent their whole lives studying these issues don’t find your arguments persuasive, why do you? .... Is it arrogance?"
Maybe so.
Do you see anything erroneous here?:
_The Aramaic Origin of the Four Gospels_ by Frank Zimmermann (1979), 244pp., on ix
https://archive.org/details/aramaicorigi...p?q=Torrey
The relation between the Greek text and the underlying Aramaic is of crucial importance, if we wish to go back to the primacy and significance of the Gospel report. Jesus spoke Aramaic, and so did his disciples. The transmission of his sayings and the reports of his activities were in Aramaic. It is imperative to recover, as best one can, the original saying or episode in the Aramaic language wherein it was cast. The Greek Gospels abound in bizarre locutions and unintelligible happenings. This book presents some two hundred new readings as retroversions from Aramaic that clarify many Gospel problems.
The pioneer in this study of Aramaic and Greek relationships was Charles Cutler Torrey (1863-1956). Before and after him have been scholars who have dealt with these problems, either in an incomplete or fragmentized fashion (see the bibliography). His work however fell short of completeness; as a pioneering effort, in the nature of the case, some of his work has to be revised and supplemented. His main contention of translation, however, is undeniably correct.
on 4-5:
Another group of scholars, among whom C. C. Torrey was the most vocal and vigorous exponent, comes out flatly with the proposition that the Four Gospels (with the exception of Jn. 21,^3 Lk. 1-2,^4 and the Mk. ending 16.9-20), including Acts up to 15.35, are translated directly from Aramaic, and from a written Aramaic text. This group differs from the previous views which allow scant Aramaic influence, and only occasional evidence of Aramaic _logia_ in the background. But here there is an impressive group of scholars, among them Wellhausen, Nestle, Rendel Harris, Schlatter, A. Meyer, Burney, Montgomery, De Zwaan, Wensinck, [perhaps a loose association as they may differ from each other], who maintain that the Gospels are Aramaic documents. A further matter of importance which concerns these scholars is, in what dialect of the Aramaic were the Gospels composed. Was it Judean Aramaic, Galilean, or the so-called Christian Palestinian Aramaic, or was it Samaritan Aramaic, or perhaps the Syriac Aramaic? (There is a considerable number of Syriacisms considered valid by such scholars as Wellhausen, Burney, Torrey, and Black.) This question of the dialect will be considered in subsequent pages (pp. 22f.).
My own researches have led me to consider Torrey’s position valid and convincing that the Gospels as a whole were translated from the Aramaic into Greek. The following discussion supports and expands this thesis with new illustrations and examples. Some scholars have thrown stones at the building Torrey constructed, and have broken some windows (cf. Black, _Aramaic Approach to the Gospels and Acts_ 8-9), but the structure stands firm. Torrey’s contributions principally, together with those of Wellhausen, Burney, Montgomery and Black, and some 200 new examples of my own, should make the hypothesis of the Aramaic substrate irrefutable. There are now some 500 pieces of evidence. In this connection, by curious contrast, it is remarkable that in many other instances, as in the books of the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha, the evidence for the original language of a book may be a mere five or six examples, yet deemed sufficient for an editor to bring in a verdict.
on 7-8:
Torrey in his _Our Translated Gospels_ offered some 130 examples of evidence showing mistranslation of the Aramaic text on the part of the Greek translator, of which some 30 examples have a scribal error of some kind. He limited the number expressly, he says, for the understanding of the general reader, as the purpose was to show via repeated translation that good natural sense appeared where there was non-sense. While some scholars have cavilled at some of the examples, the main contention was brilliantly conceived, and his evidence for the most part holds. In all fairness, it cannot be cavalierly dismissed.
======================================================
"I have very little patience for those who are arrogant without doing any of the difficult work required to intelligently discuss scholarship"
What's your attitude toward individuals "who are arrogant" after having done "the difficult work required to intelligently discuss scholarship"?
review of
_The Hebrew Bible: A Translation with Commentary_ by Robert Alter
https://www.librarything.com/work/223633.../202749887
Alter's translation makes use of the Septuagint as well as the Masoretic text and he uses historical evidence outside of traditional Jewish sources to determine meaning.... his commentary is extremely informative regarding his choices and his reasoning, and was enlightening. He does consider himself to be *the* expert--there's a touch of arrogance--but his opinions are interesting.
"_Aramaic Sources of Mark’s Gospel_ by Maurice Casey.... Maybe you should read this book before asking me any additional questions"
LXX Isaiah 29:12
Oxford NETS - New English Translation of the Septuagint
https://archive.org/details/lxxnets/00-front-nets/
https://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/
PDF: https://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/...s-nets.pdf
And this book will be given into the hands of an unlearned man,
and one will say to him, "Read this,"
and he will say, "I am not learned."
======================================================
"the Gospels generally follow the LXX rather than the MT (e.g., Mark 7:6-7"
Mark 7:6-7 lacks the LXX Brenton's and LXX Swete's mention of 'draw near with their mouth'-- material that is distinct from the verbiage about 'honor with their lips.'
(LXX NETS lacks a mention of mouths that's in addition to 'lips.')
What elements are you looking at in saying Mark 7:6-7 "follow[s] the LXX"?
(merely the 'in vain'? LXX Swete appears to lack that. OTOH, LXX Brenton and NETS have it. Young's Literal suggests to me that the Masoretic is corrupted there. I wonder if Robert Alter has a footnote on the verse.)
Mark 7 (Berean Literal)
https://biblehub.com/blb/mark/7.htm
6 And He said to them,
“Isaiah prophesied rightly concerning you hypocrites,
as it has been written:
‘This people honors Me with the lips,
but their heart is kept far away from Me;
7 and they worship Me in vain,
teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
Mark 7 (Bauscher)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/mark/7.htm
6 But he said to them,
“Isaiah the Prophet prophesied beautifully of you impostors,
just as it is written:
'This people honors me with its lips,
but their heart is very far from Me.'
7 'And in vain they pay reverence to me
as they teach doctrines of commandments of the sons of men.'
Isaiah 29:13 (JPS Tanakh 1917)
https://biblehub.com/jps/isaiah/29.htm
And the Lord said:
Forasmuch as this people draw near,
And with their mouth and with their lips do honour Me,
But have removed their heart far from Me,
And their fear of Me is a commandment of men learned by rote;
Isaiah 29:13 (Robert Alter, searching for: lips heart
on
_The Hebrew Bible: A Translation with Commentary, Volume 3_
https://books.google.com/books?id=S75SDwAAQBAJ&
And the Master said,
Inasmuch as this people approached with its mouth
and with its lips honored Me
but kept its heart far from Me,
and their reverence for Me was a commandment of men learned by rote,
Isaiah 29:13 (Young's Literal)
https://biblehub.com/ylt/isaiah/29.htm
And the Lord saith:
Because drawn near hath this people, with its mouth,
And with its lips they have honoured Me,
And its heart it hath put far off from Me,
And their fear of Me is --
A precept of men is taught!
Isaiah 29:13 (based on interlinear)
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/isaiah/29-13.htm
Therefore said Yahweh,
Because inasmuch as draw near this people with their mouths
and with their lips honor Me
but their hearts have removed far from Me
and is their fear toward Me by the commandment of men taught
LXX Isaiah 29:13 (Brenton)
https://biblehub.com/sep/isaiah/29.htm
And the Lord has said,
This people draw nigh to me with their mouth,
and they honour me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me:
but in vain do they worship me,
teaching the commandments and doctrines of men.
LXX Isaiah 29:13
Oxford NETS - New English Translation of the Septuagint
https://archive.org/details/lxxnets/00-front-nets/
https://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/
PDF: https://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/...s-nets.pdf
The Lord said:
These people draw near me;
they honor me with their lips,
while their heart is far from me,
and in vain do they worship me,
teaching human precepts and teachings.
LXX Isaiah 29:13 (Swete)
https://biblehub.com/sepd/isaiah/29.htm
https://archive.org/details/oldtestament...8/mode/2up
καὶ εἶπεν Κύριος Ἐγγίζει μοι ὁ λαὸς οὗτος ἐν τῷ στόματι αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐν τοῖς χείλεσιν αὐτῶν τιμῶσίν με, ἡ δὲ καρδία αὐτῶν πόρρω ἀπέχει ἀπ᾽ ἐμοῦ· μάτην δὲ σέβονταί με διδάσκοντες ἐντάλματα ἀνθρώπων καὶ διδασκαλίας.
google translate:
And the Lord said,
This people approaches me with their mouths,
and honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me;
but they respect the commandments of men and teaching with teachers.
DSS Isaiah 29:13
_The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible_ (1999), 649pp., on 313
https://archive.org/stream/B-001-001-932...2_djvu.txt
And the Lord said,
Inasmuch as this people draw near to honor me with their mouth
and with their lips,
but have removed their hearts far from me,
and _fear of me_^526 has been _like a human commandment_^527 that has been taught them;
526: 1QIsa^a. _their fear of me_ MT.
527: 1QIsa^a. _a human commandment_ MT.
Peshitta Isaiah 29:13
_The Peshitta Holy Bible Translated_ (2019) by Bauscher
https://biblehub.com/hpbt/isaiah/29.htm
https://www.amazon.com/Peshitta-Holy-Bib...359404251/
And LORD JEHOVAH said:
"Because this people approaches me with its mouth
and by its lips it honors me
and its heart is far from me,
and their worship of me was by the commandment and in the teaching of man
Targum Isaiah 29:13
_The Chaldee Paraphrase on the Prophet Isaiah [by Jonathan b. Uzziel]_ tr. by C.W.H. Pauli (1871), 226pp., on 94
https://archive.org/stream/chaldeeparaph...g_djvu.txt
Wherefore the Lord hath said:
Because I am magnified by the mouth of this people,
and with their lips they do honour me,
but their heart is far from my fear,
and their fear towards me is as the commandment of men teaching _them_:
Maybe so.
Do you see anything erroneous here?:
_The Aramaic Origin of the Four Gospels_ by Frank Zimmermann (1979), 244pp., on ix
https://archive.org/details/aramaicorigi...p?q=Torrey
The relation between the Greek text and the underlying Aramaic is of crucial importance, if we wish to go back to the primacy and significance of the Gospel report. Jesus spoke Aramaic, and so did his disciples. The transmission of his sayings and the reports of his activities were in Aramaic. It is imperative to recover, as best one can, the original saying or episode in the Aramaic language wherein it was cast. The Greek Gospels abound in bizarre locutions and unintelligible happenings. This book presents some two hundred new readings as retroversions from Aramaic that clarify many Gospel problems.
The pioneer in this study of Aramaic and Greek relationships was Charles Cutler Torrey (1863-1956). Before and after him have been scholars who have dealt with these problems, either in an incomplete or fragmentized fashion (see the bibliography). His work however fell short of completeness; as a pioneering effort, in the nature of the case, some of his work has to be revised and supplemented. His main contention of translation, however, is undeniably correct.
on 4-5:
Another group of scholars, among whom C. C. Torrey was the most vocal and vigorous exponent, comes out flatly with the proposition that the Four Gospels (with the exception of Jn. 21,^3 Lk. 1-2,^4 and the Mk. ending 16.9-20), including Acts up to 15.35, are translated directly from Aramaic, and from a written Aramaic text. This group differs from the previous views which allow scant Aramaic influence, and only occasional evidence of Aramaic _logia_ in the background. But here there is an impressive group of scholars, among them Wellhausen, Nestle, Rendel Harris, Schlatter, A. Meyer, Burney, Montgomery, De Zwaan, Wensinck, [perhaps a loose association as they may differ from each other], who maintain that the Gospels are Aramaic documents. A further matter of importance which concerns these scholars is, in what dialect of the Aramaic were the Gospels composed. Was it Judean Aramaic, Galilean, or the so-called Christian Palestinian Aramaic, or was it Samaritan Aramaic, or perhaps the Syriac Aramaic? (There is a considerable number of Syriacisms considered valid by such scholars as Wellhausen, Burney, Torrey, and Black.) This question of the dialect will be considered in subsequent pages (pp. 22f.).
My own researches have led me to consider Torrey’s position valid and convincing that the Gospels as a whole were translated from the Aramaic into Greek. The following discussion supports and expands this thesis with new illustrations and examples. Some scholars have thrown stones at the building Torrey constructed, and have broken some windows (cf. Black, _Aramaic Approach to the Gospels and Acts_ 8-9), but the structure stands firm. Torrey’s contributions principally, together with those of Wellhausen, Burney, Montgomery and Black, and some 200 new examples of my own, should make the hypothesis of the Aramaic substrate irrefutable. There are now some 500 pieces of evidence. In this connection, by curious contrast, it is remarkable that in many other instances, as in the books of the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha, the evidence for the original language of a book may be a mere five or six examples, yet deemed sufficient for an editor to bring in a verdict.
on 7-8:
Torrey in his _Our Translated Gospels_ offered some 130 examples of evidence showing mistranslation of the Aramaic text on the part of the Greek translator, of which some 30 examples have a scribal error of some kind. He limited the number expressly, he says, for the understanding of the general reader, as the purpose was to show via repeated translation that good natural sense appeared where there was non-sense. While some scholars have cavilled at some of the examples, the main contention was brilliantly conceived, and his evidence for the most part holds. In all fairness, it cannot be cavalierly dismissed.
======================================================
"I have very little patience for those who are arrogant without doing any of the difficult work required to intelligently discuss scholarship"
What's your attitude toward individuals "who are arrogant" after having done "the difficult work required to intelligently discuss scholarship"?
review of
_The Hebrew Bible: A Translation with Commentary_ by Robert Alter
https://www.librarything.com/work/223633.../202749887
Alter's translation makes use of the Septuagint as well as the Masoretic text and he uses historical evidence outside of traditional Jewish sources to determine meaning.... his commentary is extremely informative regarding his choices and his reasoning, and was enlightening. He does consider himself to be *the* expert--there's a touch of arrogance--but his opinions are interesting.
"_Aramaic Sources of Mark’s Gospel_ by Maurice Casey.... Maybe you should read this book before asking me any additional questions"
LXX Isaiah 29:12
Oxford NETS - New English Translation of the Septuagint
https://archive.org/details/lxxnets/00-front-nets/
https://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/
PDF: https://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/...s-nets.pdf
And this book will be given into the hands of an unlearned man,
and one will say to him, "Read this,"
and he will say, "I am not learned."
======================================================
"the Gospels generally follow the LXX rather than the MT (e.g., Mark 7:6-7"
Mark 7:6-7 lacks the LXX Brenton's and LXX Swete's mention of 'draw near with their mouth'-- material that is distinct from the verbiage about 'honor with their lips.'
(LXX NETS lacks a mention of mouths that's in addition to 'lips.')
What elements are you looking at in saying Mark 7:6-7 "follow[s] the LXX"?
(merely the 'in vain'? LXX Swete appears to lack that. OTOH, LXX Brenton and NETS have it. Young's Literal suggests to me that the Masoretic is corrupted there. I wonder if Robert Alter has a footnote on the verse.)
Mark 7 (Berean Literal)
https://biblehub.com/blb/mark/7.htm
6 And He said to them,
“Isaiah prophesied rightly concerning you hypocrites,
as it has been written:
‘This people honors Me with the lips,
but their heart is kept far away from Me;
7 and they worship Me in vain,
teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
Mark 7 (Bauscher)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/mark/7.htm
6 But he said to them,
“Isaiah the Prophet prophesied beautifully of you impostors,
just as it is written:
'This people honors me with its lips,
but their heart is very far from Me.'
7 'And in vain they pay reverence to me
as they teach doctrines of commandments of the sons of men.'
Isaiah 29:13 (JPS Tanakh 1917)
https://biblehub.com/jps/isaiah/29.htm
And the Lord said:
Forasmuch as this people draw near,
And with their mouth and with their lips do honour Me,
But have removed their heart far from Me,
And their fear of Me is a commandment of men learned by rote;
Isaiah 29:13 (Robert Alter, searching for: lips heart
on
_The Hebrew Bible: A Translation with Commentary, Volume 3_
https://books.google.com/books?id=S75SDwAAQBAJ&
And the Master said,
Inasmuch as this people approached with its mouth
and with its lips honored Me
but kept its heart far from Me,
and their reverence for Me was a commandment of men learned by rote,
Isaiah 29:13 (Young's Literal)
https://biblehub.com/ylt/isaiah/29.htm
And the Lord saith:
Because drawn near hath this people, with its mouth,
And with its lips they have honoured Me,
And its heart it hath put far off from Me,
And their fear of Me is --
A precept of men is taught!
Isaiah 29:13 (based on interlinear)
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/isaiah/29-13.htm
Therefore said Yahweh,
Because inasmuch as draw near this people with their mouths
and with their lips honor Me
but their hearts have removed far from Me
and is their fear toward Me by the commandment of men taught
LXX Isaiah 29:13 (Brenton)
https://biblehub.com/sep/isaiah/29.htm
And the Lord has said,
This people draw nigh to me with their mouth,
and they honour me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me:
but in vain do they worship me,
teaching the commandments and doctrines of men.
LXX Isaiah 29:13
Oxford NETS - New English Translation of the Septuagint
https://archive.org/details/lxxnets/00-front-nets/
https://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/
PDF: https://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/...s-nets.pdf
The Lord said:
These people draw near me;
they honor me with their lips,
while their heart is far from me,
and in vain do they worship me,
teaching human precepts and teachings.
LXX Isaiah 29:13 (Swete)
https://biblehub.com/sepd/isaiah/29.htm
https://archive.org/details/oldtestament...8/mode/2up
καὶ εἶπεν Κύριος Ἐγγίζει μοι ὁ λαὸς οὗτος ἐν τῷ στόματι αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐν τοῖς χείλεσιν αὐτῶν τιμῶσίν με, ἡ δὲ καρδία αὐτῶν πόρρω ἀπέχει ἀπ᾽ ἐμοῦ· μάτην δὲ σέβονταί με διδάσκοντες ἐντάλματα ἀνθρώπων καὶ διδασκαλίας.
google translate:
And the Lord said,
This people approaches me with their mouths,
and honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me;
but they respect the commandments of men and teaching with teachers.
DSS Isaiah 29:13
_The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible_ (1999), 649pp., on 313
https://archive.org/stream/B-001-001-932...2_djvu.txt
And the Lord said,
Inasmuch as this people draw near to honor me with their mouth
and with their lips,
but have removed their hearts far from me,
and _fear of me_^526 has been _like a human commandment_^527 that has been taught them;
526: 1QIsa^a. _their fear of me_ MT.
527: 1QIsa^a. _a human commandment_ MT.
Peshitta Isaiah 29:13
_The Peshitta Holy Bible Translated_ (2019) by Bauscher
https://biblehub.com/hpbt/isaiah/29.htm
https://www.amazon.com/Peshitta-Holy-Bib...359404251/
And LORD JEHOVAH said:
"Because this people approaches me with its mouth
and by its lips it honors me
and its heart is far from me,
and their worship of me was by the commandment and in the teaching of man
Targum Isaiah 29:13
_The Chaldee Paraphrase on the Prophet Isaiah [by Jonathan b. Uzziel]_ tr. by C.W.H. Pauli (1871), 226pp., on 94
https://archive.org/stream/chaldeeparaph...g_djvu.txt
Wherefore the Lord hath said:
Because I am magnified by the mouth of this people,
and with their lips they do honour me,
but their heart is far from my fear,
and their fear towards me is as the commandment of men teaching _them_: