Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
book of Hebrews: better from Greek, or Aramaic?
Which Hebrews renditions below do you like better?

Heb 1:4-5 (KJV)
4 *Being made so much better than the angels,*
as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels *said he at any time,*
Thou art my Son,
this day have I begotten thee?
And again,
I will be to him a Father,
and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:4 (APNT)
4 And *this [one] is greater than the angels* in every way,
even as the name that he inherited is greater than theirs.
5 For to which of the angels *did God ever say:*
and again,

Heb 2:6 (KJV)
But *one in a certain place testified,* saying,
What is man, that thou art mindful of him?
or the son of man that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:6  (Aramaic Peshitta NT) But *as the scripture witnesses* and says:

Heb 4:4 (KJV) For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise,
And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:4 (APNT) As he said about the Sabbath:

Heb 5:7 (KJV) Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Heb 5:7 (APNT) Also, while he was clothed with flesh, he offered petition and intercession with strong crying and with tears to him who was able to make him alive from death and he was heard.

Heb 6:1 (KJV) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:1 (APNT) Because of this, we should leave the starting point of the word of Christ and we should come to maturity.  Or will you again lay another foundation for repentance from dead works and for the faith that is in God

Heb 7:3 (KJV) Without father, without mother, without descent,
having neither beginning of days, nor end of life;
but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Heb 7:3 (APNT) whose father and mother are not written in the genealogies,
nor the beginning of his days, nor the completion of his life.
But in the likeness of the Son of God, his priesthood remains forever.

Hebrews 7:19-21 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
19 (for the law perfected nothing), but a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

Heb 7:21 (KJV)  (For those priests were made without an oath;
but this with an oath by him that said unto him,
The Lord [Greek:  kurios] sware and will not repent,
Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec: )
Heb 7:21 (APNT) For they became priests without oaths,
but this [one] with oaths, as he said to him by way of David:

Heb 8:5-6 (KJV)
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as *Moses was admonished of God* when he was about to make the tabernacle:  for,

See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 But *now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry,* by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 8:5-6 (APNT) those who minister for a type and for shadows of those [things] that are in heaven, *as was said to Moses* while he was making the tabernacle:
6 And now, *Jesus Christ has received a ministry* that is more excellent than that, as also that covenant in which he was made the mediator is more excellent. So [it is] with the promises that are more excellent than what was given.

Heb 11:1 (KJV) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb 11:1 (APNT) Now faith is the persuasion concerning those [things] that are in hope, as if they had in fact happened, and the evidence of those [things] that are not seen.

*transliterations + translations:  Hebrews 7:1-2*

The bottom line is that in the original Aramaic for Hebrews 7:1-2, "Mlki-Zdq" got expounded as the partially-similar "Mlka d'Kanutha," while in contrast,
the Greek version has the transliteration "Melchisedek," which it translates as the very-dissimilar "basileus dikaiosyne."
Also, in the original Aramaic, "Mlk Shlim" was expounded as the largely similar "Mlka d'Shlma," while in contrast,
the Greek version has the part-translation, part-transliteration "basileus Salem," which it fully-translates as "basileus eirene."

We start with some Aramaic vocabulary.  
Mlki-Zdq -- King-Righteous, i.e. "Righteous King," or:  "King (of) Righteousness"  [could it be 'my righteous king'?]
(Incidentally, "zadiqa" means "righteous/ just, a righteous/ just man," and "Zaduqia" are Sadducees.)
Mlk-Shlim -- king (of) peace
d'mlka -- of the kings
Mlka-d'Kanutha -- king of righteousness
Mlk-Shlim -- king (of) peace
Mlka-d'Shlma -- king of peace

Hebrews 7:1-2 (based on Etheridge + Khabouris, from
1.  For this Mlki-Zdq is Mlk-Shlim, the priest of Allaha the Most High.  
And he met Abraham when he returned from the slaughter d'mlka [of the kings], and blessed him.
2.  And to him Abraham separated the tenth from everything that he had with him.
Now his name, being expounded, (is) the Mlka-d'Kanutha;
and again, Mlk-Shlim, which is, Mlka-d'Shlma.

Note how in the original Aramaic, there's 6 instances of "mlk"/king, and 3 instances of words having the letters "shlm"/ peace, as the author of Hebrews expresses things slightly differently (in different Aramaic dialects?).

We now take a look at the Greek transliterations and translations of the passage.

Hebrews 7:1-2 (hybrid of DLNT + MOUNCE; the bracketed "his name" is the DLNT's);DLNT
For this Melchisedek [Melchizedek], basileus-Salem [king _of_ Salem], priest _of_ the Most-High God, remains _a_ priest perpetually--  
the _one_ having met Abraham returning from the defeat _of_ the basileus [kings] and having eulogeo [blessed] him;
_to_ whom also Abraham divided dekatos [_a_ tenth] from everything;
_who is_ first ([his name] hermeneuo [being translated]), basileus-dikaiosyne [king _of_ righteousness];
and then also basileus-Salem [king _of_ Salem], which is basileus-eirene [king _of_ peace];

transliterations of the Greek transliterations:
Melchisedek:  1 instance
Salem:  2 instances

transliterations of the Greek translations:
basileus (5 instances; translates the Aramaic mlk/ 'king')
dikaiosyne (translates the Aramaic d'kanutha/ 'of righteousness')
eirene (1 instance; translates the Aramaic shlma/ 'peace')

Heb 8 (KJV)
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord [Greek:  kurios], when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord [Greek:  kurios].
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord [Greek:  kurios];
I will put my laws into their mind,
and write them in their hearts:
and I will be to them a God,
and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord [Greek:  kurios]:  
for all shall know me,
from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness,
and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 8 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English),
4 And if he were on Earth, he would not be a Priest, because there have been Priests who have been offering gifts according to what is in The Law,
5 Those who serve the form and the shadow of these things that are in Heaven, as it was said to Moses when he made The Tabernacle, "See and do everything by the image that appeared to you on the mountain."
6 Now Yeshua The Messiah has received the Ministry which is better than that, as The Covenant of which he is made The Mediator is better, and it is given with better promises than that.
7 For if the first one had been without fault, then there would have been no place for this second one.
8 For he found fault with them, and he said, "Behold, the days are coming, says THE LORD JEHOVAH [Aramaic: MrYa, i.e. Master YHWH], and I will perfect a New Covenant for the family of the house of Israel and for the family of the house of Judah."
9 "Not like that Covenant that I gave to their fathers in the day when I took their hands and brought them from the land of Egypt, because they did not continue in my Covenant; I also rejected them, says THE LORD JEHOVAH."[Aramaic: MrYa, i.e. Master YHWH]
10 "But this is The Covenant that I shall give to the family of the house of Israel:  
After those days, says THE LORD JEHOVAH [Aramaic: MrYa, i.e. Master YHWH],
I shall put my law in their minds
and upon their hearts I shall write it,
and I shall be to them a God,
and they shall be to me a people."
11 "And a man will not teach a citizen of his city, neither his brother, and say,
'Know THE LORD JEHOVAH',[Aramaic: MrYa, i.e. Master YHWH]
because they shall all know me,
from their little ones and unto their Elders."
12 "And I shall purge them of their evils,
and I shall not remember their sins again."
13 In that he said, "New", he has made the first old, and that which is outdated and old is near destruction.
It's been claimed that the NT quotes the LXX. These tables give an overview of NT quotes of the OT:
The NT was originally in Aramaic, not Greek. The huge majority of printed NTs are translated from Greek, which was translated from Aramaic. The transmission of Greek mss. was far worse than the Assyrian Church of the East's careful transmission of the Aramaic NT. The Greek manuscripts have many variants. There are over 200 textual variants in the 4 Gospels located at the places mentioned below. In many instances, the Aramaic and the by-A.D. 175 Diatesseron agree as to what the original renditions of various Gospel passages were:
Aramaic Peshitta New Testament, Often Bolstered by the Diatesseron, Adjudicating Between Conflicting Greek Manuscripts
*Book of Matthew*
Matthew 1:25, 2:18, 3:16, 4:10, 5:22, 5:25, 5:44, 5:47, 6:1, 6:4, 6:6, 6:13, 6:15, 6:18, 6:33, 8:18, 11:15, 11:23, 12:22, 12:47, 13:43, 13:51, 14:24, 14:30, 14:33, 15:8, 15:14, 15:27, 16:2-4, 16:13, 18:11, 18:15, 18:19, 18:29, 18:35, 19:17, 19:20, 20:6-7, 20:16, 21:12, 21:28-32, 21:44, 22:7, 22:13, 22:44, 23:3, 23:4-5, 23:8, 23:14, 23:19, 23:25, 23:26, 24:42-43, 24:48, 25:6, 25:13-14, 25:31, 26:3, 26:28, 26:42, 27:16-17, 27:24, 27:41-42, 27:64, 28:2, 28:9, 28:17, 28:20
*Book of Mark*
Mark 3:14-16, 3:29, 6:33, 6:36, 7:2, 7:4-5, 7:8-9, 7:19, 7:24, 8:26, 9:23, 9:49, 10:21, 10:24, 12:4, 12:29-30, 12:33, 13:33, 14:19, 14:68, 15:28, 16:9-20
*Book of Luke*
Luke 1:28, 1:29, 2:14, 2:33, 2:38, 2:40, 2:43, 3:19, 3:22, 4:44, 6:10, 8:45, 8:48, 9:23, 9:54-56, 10:1, 10:21-22, 10:38, 10:39-41, 10:42, 11:11, 11:53-54, 13:2, 14:5, 15:16, 16:9, 17:3, 17:9, 17:33, 17:36, 20:13, 20:30, 21:19, 21:36, 22:31, 22:43-44, 23:6, 23:23, 23:34, 23:42, 24:17, 24:42, 24:46, 24:49, 24:51, 24:53
*Book of John*
John 1:18, 1:27, 1:34, 1:42, 3:13, 3:15, 3:25, 3:34, 4:1, 4:9, 4:42, 1:18, 5:2, 5:3-4, 5:16, 5:44, 6:22, 6:36, 6:47, 6:58, 6:64, 6:69, 6:71, 7:8, 7:26, 7:37, 7:39, 7:46, 7:50, 7:53-8:11, 8:16, 8:38, 8:54, 8:57, 8:59, 9:4, 9:9, 9:11, 9:35, 10:8, 10:26, 10:29, 10:34, 10:38, 11:25, 11:41, 11:49-50, 12:1, 12:28, 12:47, 13:10, 13:18, 13:26, 13:32, 14:4, 14:7, 14:11, 14:14, 14:15, 14:28, 15:7, 16:3, 16:4, 16:16, 16:18, 16:27, 17:21, 18:20, 19:16, 19:28, 20:31, 21:3, 21:15-17
Did God finish working on the 6th day? or the 7th day?

7th vs. 6th
Genesis 2:2 (JPS Tanakh 1917)
And on the seventh day God finished His work which He had made;
and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made.
Exodus 20:11 (JPS Tanakh 1917)
for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is,
and rested on the seventh day; wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

6th vs. 6th-- consistent
Genesis 2:2 (Brenton Septuagint, which was translated into Greek from Hebrew about 2,200 years ago)
And God finished on the sixth day his works which he made,
and he ceased on the seventh day from all his works which he made. 3And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it he ceased from all his works which God began to do.
Exodus 20:11 (Brenton Septuagint)
For in six days the Lord made the heaven and the earth, and the sea and all things in them,
and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it.

6th vs. 6th-- consistent
Genesis 2:2 (Lamsa Translation of Peshitta Tanakh, which was translated into Aramaic from Hebrew about 2,200 years ago)
from "Originality of Aramaic OT" file at
And on the sixth day God, finished his works which he had made;
and he rested on the seventh day from all his works which he had made.”
Peshitta Tanakh has no such contradiction.

How old was Ahaziah when he began to reign?

22 vs. 42
2 Kings 8:26 (JPS Tanakh 1917)
Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign;
and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother’s name was Athaliah the daughter of Omri king of Israel.
2 Chronicles 22:2 (JPS Tanakh 1917)
Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign;
and he reigned one year in Jerusalem; and his mother’s name was Athaliah the daughter of Omri.

22 vs. 20
2 Kings 8:26 (Brenton Septuagint)
Twenty and two years old was Ochozias when he began to reign,
and he reigned one year in Jerusalem: and the name of his mother was Gotholia, daughter of Ambri king of Israel.
2 Chronicles 22:2 (Brenton Septuagint)
Ochozias began to reign when he was twenty years old,
and he reigned one year in Jerusalem: and his mother's name was Gotholia, the daughter of Ambri.

Peshitta Tanakh: 22 vs. 22-- consistent
from "Originality of Aramaic OT" file at
Does Peshitta Tanakh ha[ve] this contradiction?
Both 2 Kings 8:26 and 2 Chronicles 22:2 (of Peshitta Tanakh) says Ahaziah was twenty-two years old when he began to reign.
Peshitta Tanakh clears the contradiction found in Hebrew Masoretic Text.

How old was Jehoiachin when he began to reign?

8 vs. 18
2 Chronicles 36:9 (JPS Tanakh 1917)
Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign;
and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem;
and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD.
2 Kings 24:8 (JPS Tanakh 1917)
Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign;
and he reigned in Jerusalem three months;
and his mother’s name was Nehushta the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.

8 vs. 18
2 Chronicles 36:9 (Brenton Septuagint)
Jechonias was eight years old when he began to reign,
and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem,
and did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord.
2 Kings 24:8 (Brenton Septuagint)
Eighteen years old was Joachim when he began to reign,
and he reigned three months in Jerusalem:
and his mother's name was Nestha, daughter of Ellanastham, of Jerusalem.

Peshitta Tanakh: 18 vs. 18-- consistent
from "Originality of Aramaic OT" file at
What does Peshitta Tanakh say about this contradiction?
Both 2 Chronicles 36:9 and 2 Kings 24:8 of Peshitta Tanakh says Jehoiachin was eighteen years old. This contradiction in Hebrew Masoretic Text is cleared by Peshitta Tanakh.
Does mention of worship of God belong, or not belong, at Deut 32:43?

Deuteronomy 32 (JPS Tanakh 1917)
42 I will make Mine arrows drunk with blood,
And My sword shall devour flesh;
With the blood of the slain and the captives,
From the long-haired heads of the enemy.’
43 *Sing aloud, O ye nations, of His people;*
For He doth avenge the blood of His servants,
And doth render vengeance to His adversaries,
And doth make expiation for the land of His people.
44 And Moses came and spoke all the words of this song in the ears of the people, he, and Hoshea the son of Nun.

Deuteronomy 32 (Brenton Septuagint)
42 I will make my weapons drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh, it shall glut itself with the blood of the wounded, and from the captivity of the heads of their enemies that rule over them.
43 *Rejoice, ye heavens, with him,*
*and let all the angels of God worship him;*
*rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people,*
and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him;
for he will avenge the blood of his sons,
and he will render vengeance,
and recompense justice to his enemies,
and will reward them that hate him;
and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.
44 And Moses wrote this song in that day, and taught it to the children of Israel; and Moses went in and spoke all the words of this law in the ears of the people, he and Joshua the son of Naue.

_Dead Sea Scrolls Bible: The Oldest Known Bible Translated for the First Time into English_, translated and with commentary by Martin Abegg Jr., Peter Flint & Eugene Ulrich (1999), 649pp., 193
43 *Rejoice, O heavens, together with him,*
*and bow down to him all you gods,* ^171
for he will avenge the blood of his sons,
and will render vengeance to his enemies,
and will recompense those who hate him,
and will atone for the land of his people.
171: 4QDeut^q LXX (..._you sons of God_). Not in MT [Masoretic Text] SP [Samaritan Pentateuch].

Hebrews 1 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
4 And This One is altogether greater than the Angels, according to how much more excellent than theirs is The Name which he possesses.
5 For to which one of the Angels did God ever say,
"You are my Son;
today I have begotten you", and again,
"I shall be to him The Father
and he shall be to me the Son."?
6 Again, when he brings The Firstborn into the universe, he says,
*"All the Angels of God shall worship him."*
7 But he spoke in this way about the Angels:
"He makes his Angels the wind
and his Ministers the burning fire."
8 But concerning The Son, he said,
"Your throne, oh God, is to the eternity of eternities.
A straight scepter is the scepter of your Kingdom."
"the Hebrew Matthew has been given serious study and found that it is full of 'word puns'"  The Aramaic has that.  "Jerusalem has the original text given them from Russia"  Does the Hebrew Matthew's Lord's Prayer have much rhyming?  (The Lord's Prayer in the Aramaic Peshitta of Matthew rhymes extremely well.)  What does it say at these places?:  1:16, 1:23, 5:18, 7:6, 19:24, 19:28, 23:5, 25:41, 27:9-10, 27:46.  Does it have the equivalent of YHWH?
What's the most rhyming you see in the Lord's Prayer in Hebrew Matthew?
Learn the Lord’s Prayer in Hebrew
Learn the "Our Father" prayer in Hebrew.  This version of the Lord's Prayer was preserved by Jewish rabbis in the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew.  Click on each word to hear it recited by Keith Johnson and see the translation.
avee-noo she-ba-sha-mai-yeem,
yeet-ka-desh sheem-cha,
ve-yeet-ba-rech mal-choot-cha,
re-tson-cha yee-h'-ye a-sui ba-sha-mai-yeem oo-va-a-rets,
ve-tee-ten lach-me-noo te-mee-deet,
oo-me-chol la-noo cha-to-tay-noo ka-a-sher a-nach-noo mo-cha-leem la-chot-teem la-noo,
ve-al te-vee-ay-noo lee-day nees-sa-yon,
ve-shom-ray-noo mee-kol rah,

In the Aramaic, Mt's rendition of the Lord's Prayer has much rhyming.  The Aramaic Lk's version has less rhyming. The Greek versions lack rhyming.  Do you think that it's possible that someone translated a non-rhyming Greek Lord's Prayer into a rhyming Aramaic Lord's Prayer?
A transliteration of the Aramaic Mt 6:9-13:
Ah-woon ** our Father
d'wash-may-ya ** in heaven
nith-qad-dash shmakh ** holy be Your name
teh'-theh' ** come
mal-koo-thakh ** Your kingdom
neh-weh ** be done
tsow-ya-nakh ** Your will
ay-kan-na ** as
d'wash-may-ya ** in heaven
ap b'ar-aa ** so on earth.
11 ============================
haw lan ** give us
lakh-ma ** the bread
d'son-qa-nan ** of our need
yo-ma-na ** this day
12 ============================
ow'shwoq lan ** and forgive us
khow-beyn ** our offences
ay-kan-na d'ap kha-nan ** as also we
shwa-qan ** have forgiven
l'khay-ya-wen ** those who have offended us
13 ============================
ow'la ** and not
ta'-lan ** bring us
l'nis-you-na ** into trial
al-la pas-san ** but deliver us
min bee-sha ** from the evil one
modt-dtil d'dee-lak ** for of yours
hee mal-koo-tha ** is the Kingdom
ow'khay-la ** and the power
ow'tish-bokh-tha ** and the glory
l'al-um ail-meen. ** age to age, or:  world to world

Mt 6:10's "as" uses the letters "aikna," while Lk 11:2s "as" uses "aik."  Also, Mt 6:11 uses "yomna"-- this day, daily-- while Lk 11:3 instead uses "klium"-- every day, daily. Hence, in at least 2 places, the Luke version means the same, but has less-perfect rhyming compared with the Matthew version.  In my opinion, the prophet Jesus-- God incarnate-- gave a model prayer with superb rhyming recorded in the Aramaic Mt 6.  The Lk 11 rendition means the same, but has less rhyming and fewer of the prophet Jesus' original words, besides lacking "for of yours is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, l'ailm-ailmin."

What do you think is more poetic:  the Lord's Prayer a) in Greek, b) in the Mt 6 Aramaic, c) in Hebrew?
*Ps 22: LXX, Peshitta Tanakh, and DSS vs. the nonsensical Masoretic*

"Fourth, Psalm 22:17 "For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet.' Another corruption. The Hebrew here is 'ka-ari' and means 'like a lion.' It has nothing to do with Jesus, or pierced hands and feet"
About 2,000 years ago, did Ps 22 say the nonsensical "like a lion my hands and feet"?  or did it say "they pierced my hands and my feet"?

_The Book of Psalms:  A Translation with Commentary_ by Robert Alter (2007), 518pp., on 74
The received Hebrew text-- *literally "like a lion my hands and feet"-- makes no sense.*

Psalm 22 (JPS Tanakh 1917)
14 They open wide their mouth against me,
As a ravening and a roaring lion.
15 I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint;
My heart is become like wax;
It is melted in mine inmost parts.
16 My strength is dried up like a potsherd;
And my tongue cleaveth to my throat;
And Thou layest me in the dust of death.
17 For dogs have encompassed me;
A company of evil-doers have inclosed me;
*Like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet.*
18 I may count all my bones;
They look and gloat over me.
19 They part my garments among them,
And for my vesture do they cast lots.

Psalm 21 (Brenton Septuagint)
13 They have opened their mouth against me, as a ravening and roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are loosened: my heart in the midst of my belly is become like melting wax.
15 My strength is dried up, like a potsherd; and my tongue is glued to my throat; and thou hast brought me down to the dust of death.
16 For many dogs have compassed me: 
the assembly of the wicked doers has beset me round: 
*they pierced my hands and my feet.*
17 They counted all my bones; 
and they observed and looked upon me.
18 They parted my garments among themselves, 
and cast lots upon my raiment.

Ps 22:16 from the Peshitta Tanakh, _Holy Bible:  From the Ancient Eastern Text:  George M. Lamsa's Translation From the Aramaic of the Peshitta_ (1968), 1243pp., on 597
For the vicious have surrounded me;
the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me;
*they have pierced my hands and my feet.*

_Dead Sea Scrolls Bible: The Oldest Known Bible Translated for the First Time into English_, translated and with commentary by Martin Abegg Jr., Peter Flint & Eugene Ulrich (1999), 649pp., on 519
....whereas the Septuagint has "They have pierced my hands and feet."  Among the scrolls the reading in question is found only in the Psalms scroll found at Nahal Hever (abbreviated 5/6HevPs), which reads, *"They have pierced my hands and my feet"!*
The NT was originally in Aramaic, not Greek.  The original Aramaic was mistranslated to get in Greek "I may serve as a priest."
Romans 15:16 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
That I may be a minister to Yeshua The Messiah among the Gentiles and that I may labor* for The Gospel of God, that the offering of the Gentiles may be accepted and sanctified by The Spirit of Holiness.

*:  see Bauscher's detailed discussion of the mistranslation in his
The Original Aramaic New Testament in Plain English with Psalms & Proverbs (8th edition with notes)
around page 480.
"it was likely in Greek (that was the language of his time and place)"
What language is: "Talitha koum"? "Haqel Dama"?
Mark 5:41 (The Passion Translation)
He tenderly clasped the child’s hand in his and said to her in Aramaic, “Talitha koum,”[a] which means, “Little girl, wake up from the sleep of death.”
Footnotes: One of the many references in the New Testament proving that the language of Jesus was Aramaic.

Acts 1:19 (TPT)
Everyone in Jerusalem knows what happened to him. That’s why the field where he died is called in Aramaic[a] ‘Haqel Dama,’ that is, ‘The Bloody Field.’
Footnotes: Or “in the language of the region.” The Greek text is clear that the Jews of Jesus’ day spoke Aramaic, the language that Jesus and his apostles taught in. The Greek text transliterates the name of the field into a Greek equivalent for a Greek audience.
Perhaps some of those who rejected Jesus as being the Messiah wished this hadn't been written:
Wisdom 2 (NABRE)
12 Let us lie in wait for the righteous one,
because he is annoying to us;
he opposes our actions,
Reproaches us for transgressions of the law
and charges us with violations of our training.
13 He professes to have knowledge of God
and styles himself a child of the Lord.
14 To us he is the censure of our thoughts;
merely to see him is a hardship for us,
15 Because his life is not like that of others,
and different are his ways.
16 He judges us debased;
he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure.
He calls blest the destiny of the righteous
and boasts that God is his Father.

17 Let us see whether his words be true;
let us find out what will happen to him in the end.
18 For if the righteous one is the son of God,
God will help him
and deliver him from the hand of his foes.
19 With violence and torture let us put him to the test
that we may have proof of his gentleness
and try his patience.
20 Let us condemn him to a shameful death;
for according to his own words, God will take care of him.”

21 These were their thoughts, but they erred;
for their wickedness blinded them,
22 And they did not know the hidden counsels of God;
neither did they count on a recompense for holiness
nor discern the innocent souls’ reward.
23 For God formed us to be imperishable;
the image of his own nature he made us.
24 But by the envy of the devil, death entered the world,
and they who are allied with him experience it.

It's also at
Brenton's Septuagint (LXX) - Holy Name KJV Wisdom of Solomon
Zechariah 13:6 (NKJV)
And one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your [a]arms?’
Then he will answer, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.’
Footnotes: Or hands

Zechariah 13 (Brenton Septuagint Translation)
4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision when he prophesies; and they shall clothe themselves with a garment of hair, because they have lied. 5 And one shall say, I am not a prophet, for I am a tiller of the ground, for a man brought me up thus from my youth. 6 And I will say to him, What are these wounds between thine hands? and he shall say, Those with which I was wounded in my beloved house.
7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherds, and against the man who is my citizen, saith the Lord Almighty: smite the shepherds, and draw out the sheep: and I will bring mine hand upon the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts thereof shall be cut off and perish; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and I will try them as silver is tried, and I will prove them as gold is proved: they shall call upon my name, and I will hear them, and say, This is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Zechariah 13:6, in the Peshitta Tanakh, _Holy Bible: From the Ancient Eastern Text: George M. Lamsa's Translation From the Aramaic of the Peshitta_ (1968), 1243pp., on 944
And they shall say to him,
What are these wounds in your hands?
And he shall say,
These are wounds with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

Dead Sea Scrolls: we lack Zech 13 material for.

"he is NOT born of a virgin" So who _was_ born of a virgin?
Matthew 1, based on Paul Younan's translation of the original Aramaic,
22. And all this happened that it might be fulfilled what was said by Mr-Ya [Master YHWH] from the nabia [prophet],
23. "Behold, a virgin will conceive and give birth to a son,
and they will call his name Aimnuail,"
which is interpreted 'Aimn Allahan.'
[With-us (is) our-Allaha, i.e. our God is with us. The last part of Aimnuail is 'ail,' which is short for Elohim, which means Allaha.]

Isaiah 7 (Brenton Septuagint Translation)
10 And the Lord again spoke to Achaz, saying, 11 Ask for thyself a sign of the Lord thy God, in the depth or in the height. 12 And Achaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the Lord. 13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; is it a little thing for you to contend with men? and how do ye contend against the Lord? 14 Therefore *the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Emmanuel.* 15 Butter and honey shall he eat, before he knows either to prefer evil or choose the good. 16 For before the child shall know good or evil, he refuses evil, to choose the good; and the land shall be forsaken which thou art afraid of because of the two kings.

_A New English Translation of the Septuagint,_ PDF 33 Esaias, tr. Moisés Silva
10 And the Lord spoke further to Achaz, saying, 11 Ask for yourself a sign of the Lord your God, in depth or in height. 12 But Achaz said, I will not ask, nor will I put the Lord to the test. 13 Then hed said: “Hear now, O house of Dauid! Is it a small thing for you to provoke a fight with mortals? How then do you provoke a fight with the Lord? 14 Therefore *the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son, and you shall name him Emmanouel.* 15 He shall eat butter and honey; before he knows or prefers evil things, he shall choose what is good. 16 For before the child knows good or bad, he defies evil to choose what is good, and the land that you fear from before the two kings will be abandoned. 17 But God will bring on you and on your people and on your ancestral house such days as have not yet come since the day that he took Ephraim away from Ioudas-- the king of the Assyrians.”

Contending for The Faith 4 hours ago (edited)
The matter of fact is that words, even in Hebrew, can have multiple meanings. The context then (of course), must determine the meaning. Let's just assume for a moment hypothetically there is plenty enough evidence both in tenakh and history to evidence Yeshua to be HaMaChiach of the Hebrew scripture (and of course there is, it's in fact the inevitable conclusion). Then to be able to realize the inherent Messianic or christological nature of a passage and therefore to render it in that vein, is not necessarily deceitful. For example in the case of Tovia's example of Yeshayah 7:14 vs. Mishle 30:19 when Almah can signify both in general a young woman, and also a virgin (as evidenced by the translating of the septuagint before the 1st century by jews using the word parthenos the word for the greek virgin godesss). Since the word can have multiple meanings (obviously the case with all words in general, and especially in Hebrew) then the context must determine the meaning. Since these things are so, there is no deceit, and the possibility must be allowed for, maybe the jews are wrong for rejecting their Messiah who alone can fulfill all the prophecies. If the Jews in general didn't constantly rely on the traditions of the rabbis to come to their conclusions, and just relied on the scriptures for themselves, then they would realize the truth, as millions of jews have.

What's the identity of the person described below?
Isaiah 53 (Brenton Septuagint Translation)
1 O Lord, who has believed our report? 
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 We brought a report as of a child before him; 
he is as a root in a thirsty land: 
he has no form nor comeliness; 
and we saw him, 
but he had no form nor beauty.
3 But his form was ignoble, 
and inferior to that of the children of men; 
he was a man in suffering, 
and acquainted with the bearing of sickness, 
for his face is turned from us: 
he was dishonoured, and not esteemed.
4 *He bears our sins,* 
and is pained for us: 
yet we accounted him to be in trouble, 
and in suffering, and in affliction.
5 But *he was wounded on account of our sins,* 
and *was bruised because of our iniquities:* 
*the chastisement of our peace was upon him;* 
and *by his bruises we were healed.*
6 All we as sheep have gone astray; 
every one has gone astray in his way; 
and *the Lord gave him up for our sins.*
7 And he, because of his affliction, 
opens not his mouth: 
he was led as a sheep to the slaughter, 
and as a lamb before the shearer is dumb, 
so he opens not his mouth.
8 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: 
who shall declare his generation? 
for his life is taken away from the earth: 
*because of the iniquities of my people he was led to death.*
9 And I will give the wicked for his burial, 
and the rich for his death; 
for he practised no iniquity, 
nor craft with his mouth.
10 The Lord also is pleased to purge him from his stroke. 
If ye can give an offering for sin, 
your soul shall see a long-lived seed:
11 the Lord also is pleased to take away from the travail of his soul, 
to shew him light, 
and to form him with understanding; 
to justify the just one who serves many well; 
and *he shall bear their sins.*
12 Therefore he shall inherit many, 
and he shall divide the spoils of the mighty; 
because his soul was delivered to death: 
and he was numbered among the transgressors; 
and *he bore the sins of many,* 
and *was delivered because of their iniquities.*
"The Moshiach of the Bible is a mortal man who Gd uses as an instrument of His Will just as He used Moses, he comes at the End of Days just as Isaiah prophesied, he is NOTHING like the Fabricated Pagan christ as he DIES FOR NO ONE, he TAKES AWAY NO ONE'S SINS, he is NOT born of a virgin, he is NOT the Son of Gd, he is NOT Gd in the flesh, he is NOT a Sacrificial Resurrecting mangod who dies for the People, as all those are Pagan concepts derived from Pagan MYTH, NOT the Bible/Judaism."
"he comes at the End of Days just as Isaiah prophesied"
"he is NOT the Son of Gd"
Is he the Son of Man?

Jews translated the Old Testament into Greek while producing the LXX, and came up with "virgin." Just look at the passage-- a young woman giving birth to a child is no big deal and can't be a sign from God, unless she's below child-bearing age, or she's a virgin.

"explain Isaiah 26 which says, 'Together with my dead body they shall live.' Firstly, God is the one speaking there"
It's not clear to me that God is the one speaking there. At some point in Is 26, the one speaking (perhaps) shifts from a human speaking into God speaking, but where that point is exactly, and even if there is actually a shift, I dunno. The Peshitta Tanakh has a paragraph break starting at verse 20, per Lamsa's translation.
Isaiah 26 (NKJV)
16 Lord, in trouble they have visited You,
They poured out a prayer when Your chastening was upon them.
17 As a woman with child
Is in pain and cries out in her pangs,
When she draws near the time of her delivery,
So have we been in Your sight, O Lord.
18 We have been with child, we have been in pain;
We have, as it were, brought forth wind;
We have not accomplished any deliverance in the earth,
Nor have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with [k]my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.
k: Isaiah 26:19 So with MT, Vg.; Syr., Tg. their dead bodies; LXX those in the tombs
"King Hezekiah was the Prince of Peace"
Was Hezekiah also: Mighty God? Everlasting Father? Father of Eternity?
_Dead Sea Scrolls Bible: The Oldest Known Bible Translated for the First Time into English_, translated and with commentary by Martin Abegg Jr., Peter Flint & Eugene Ulrich (1999), 649pp., 284
....Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 9:6 (Young's Literal Translation)
For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.


"'Hezekiah' in Hebrew is 'The Mighty G-d'" Reference?
From the Hebrew name חִזְקִיָהוּ (Chizqiyahu), which means "YAHWEH strengthens", from the roots חָזַק (chazaq) meaning "to strength" and יָה (yah) referring to the Hebrew God. This name was borne by a powerful king of Judah who reigned in the 8th and 7th centuries BC. Also in the Old Testament, this is the name of an ancestor of the prophet Zephaniah.

Is King Hezekiah worthy of your worship? Is God worthy of your worship?
In looking at Isaiah 9:6, do you consider:
King David: "Mighty God"? "Everlasting Father"?
King Solomon: "Mighty God"? "Everlasting Father"?
Santa Claus: "Mighty God"? "Everlasting Father"?
"he never was a prince" Is "the Son of Man" mentioned below: a prince? a king?
Daniel 7 (NKJV)
13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.
'Third, Psalm 2:12 "Kiss his Son, lest he be angry." Again, the "son" is capitalized, which doesn't occur in Hebrew. Also, the passage doesn't even SAY "kiss the Son". The Hebrew here is "Neshku-bar" and means "Arm yourself with righteousness."'
What's your explanation for the Peshitta Tanakh having "kiss the son"?

Psalm 2:12 from the _Peshitta Tanakh, Holy Bible: From the Ancient Eastern Text: George M. Lamsa's Translation From the Aramaic of the Peshitta_ (1968), 1243pp., on 589
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry,
and you perish from his way
while his wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Dead Sea Scrolls: no data-- lost to the sands of time.

Psalm 2:12 (Brenton Septuagint Translation)
Accept correction, lest at any time the Lord be angry,
and ye should perish from the righteous way:
whensoever his wrath shall be suddenly kindled,
blessed are all they that trust in him.

Psalm 2:12 (A New English Translation of the Septuagint)
Seize upon instruction, lest the Lord be angry,
and you will perish from the righteous way,
when his anger quickly blazes out.
Happy are all who trust in him.

"Next up, Matthew 2:23 "and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets, 'that he would be called a Nazarene.' " Can you show me anywhere in the Hebrew Bible where this prophecy occurs?"
The prophet Isaiah foresaw this:
Isaiah 11:1-2 (HCSB)
1 Then a shoot [Hebrew: ntzr] will grow from the stump of Jesse,
and a branch from his roots will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him—
a Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
a Spirit of counsel and strength,
a Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.

interlinear PDF of Isaiah 11:1 has ‘ntzr’/ scion

Yeshayah 11:1 (Orthodox Jewish Bible);OJB
And there shall come forth a Khoter (Branch) out of the Geza (Stem, Stump, Stock) of Yishai,
and a Netzer [Branch [see Tzemach, Moshiach Jer 23:5; 33:15; Zech 3:8; 6:12, Ezra 3:8 which give as Moshiach’s Namesake Yehoshua/Yeshua; compare Mt.2:23 OJBC] shall bear fruit of his roots:

Mt 2:23 (based on Younan plus looking at Khabouris),
And he came (and) dwelled in the medintha [city] that is called N-tz-r-th [Natzrath],
so that might be fulfilled the thing which was spoken b'nabia [by the prophet] that,
"He will be called d’n-tz-r-i-a [of natzria]."

Forum Jump:

Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)