Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Alma Charts
#1
In reading the Peshitta, I've developed two charts that track every occurrence of the root word alma or more precisely EaLM (ayin-lamed-mem) in the gospels of John and Matthew:
  • Matthew: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.logicalhierarchy.com/Alma-Chart.html">http://www.logicalhierarchy.com/Alma-Chart.html</a><!-- m -->
    John: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.logicalhierarchy.com/alma-chart-for-gospel-of-john.htm">http://www.logicalhierarchy.com/alma-ch ... f-john.htm</a><!-- m -->

I see that by focusing on the article in the word (definite form ends in Aleph, whereas indefinite form has no A at the end), the word alma (or EaLM) can be translated consistently each time as "world/age" - meaning 'world and/or age'. In its definite form it is "the/this world/age". And in the indefinite form it is "a world/age". There are only very few instances where ?alma? is plural in the literal gospel: EaLMiYN (see for example Matthew 6:13).

I realize that coventional doctrine teaches the phrase "eternal life", but I just didn't find that phrase to be literal or necessary from the text. My understanding is that eternal means outside the time dimension, whereas everlasting means infinite time. Neither translation (eternal or everlasting) is required by the literal text. Moreover, where those translations (eternal or everlasting) are applied, the result is often an illogical sentence. This made me wonder whether inconsistent translation is a form of hypocrisy. (Side note: translation is a tough job and more of a process than a conclusion, so I figure it's important to be forgiving with translators).

I figure that if the gospel was going to suggest infinity, the apostle writer could have done so literally by saying ?time (zbna) that does not end? or ?time that cannot end?. Or something along those lines. But those words do not appear in the literal gospel anywhere as far as I can tell. Accordingly, I deduct from this word study that those who preach infinite time do so of their own assumptions because their assumptions are not supported by the literal text. The Messiah invited us to follow his word, not the translator?s word, right? At best, the word is written on our hearts -- I don?t think it?s possible to write a desire for infinite torment of creatures on a loving heart.

Thus, I conclude from the literal text of the Peshitta that the dogma/doctrine of 'everlasting torment in hell' comes from a false translation of the root word alma, or in Greek aion.

With that said, I gather the concept of an eternal life for the faithful and law abiding (a life outside the time dimension of this world) is not technically at odds with the literal gospel (i.e., because we cannot predict/prophecy the spacetime mechanics of the new world to come). But as far as I can tell, the literal gospel never used any sentence or phrase that was so explicit as to guarantee a life continuing for a heavenly infinity (everlasting time) such that the soul could not be destroyed later or converted/given back toward a finite world (i.e., if the soul later transgressed YHVH and was cast LEaLaM).
Reply
#2
:

Time is an illusion. It's just a clock in the sky. Once you get rid of the clock on the wall, your wrist, and in the sky...you don't have time anymore. And once you stop the decay process of the physical body, it lives forever. To be "outside of time", means that you are not governed by a clock, and where there is no distinction of day or night...just one never ending "Day". That is eternity. God set up the clock, and will dismantle it when it's no longer needed.

Both of these things will become a reality...No more clocks, and no more death...until then, we will have the time clock to structure our mortal lives with. It helps down here.

Death and Hell, will be cast into the Lake of Fire...which is The 2nd Death.

Shlama,
Chuck

..
Reply
#3
[Image: motion-wave.gif]
[Image: 3d%20clock.jpg]
[Image: spring-clock.jpg]

Imagine you see the hand of a clock rotating around and around in a circle. You calculate from your observer?s position that it can rotate infinitely in either direction and you have observed and modeled it rotating clockwise for all of recorded time. What you don?t see is the 3-d spring (wave) behind that clock ? that spring has an electromagnetic charge flowing through it, powering the clock hand you see. If you could just extend your focus/measurement to that wave behind the face of your clock, then the hidden wave function (probability) would collapse, and the clock hand would no longer be rotating infinitely in your equation. The infinity sign would disappear. I expect that our Creator conserves energy and protects energy through just laws.

Here is another example -- waves operate like ?scales of justice?, which is a fun way to think of what I?ll ultimately discuss here. If you change the balance on one side of the scale, it automatically and instantaneously changes the balance of the whole scale. Over vast distances, this can give the appearance of non-locality to an observer (or the calculation of infinite speed if you wrote an equation to model your observation) ? so for example, if an atom splits in two inside a particle accelerator, and then those parts travel 1 mile away from one another, physicists can manipulate the spin of one part and measure an instantaneous change in the spin of the other. So you can see in this example I?ve given how scientists have an opportunity for deception ? they can write an equation showing infinite speed of some mysterious particle traveling between the two halves. Notice how the equation is actually quite illogical, because it assumes the existence of an infinite speed particle they have not actually observed.

[Image: wave-scales.jpg]

[Image: balancing-scale-waves.jpg]

So what?s actually happening, if not infinite speed? Logic and experience reveal to us how waves actually operate in the universe like scales ? if we change one part of the wave/scale it automatically changes the whole (even across massive distances) because the parts remain connected. If you wish (as I do), you could say they are connected in Alha.

There are very few instances where Ealma is plural in the literal gospel: Ealmyn (see for example Matthew 6:13). In 1 Pet. 1:25, note that Peter uses the plural Ealmyn alone (i.e., without writing Ealm before it) - this further emphasizes that Ealmyn is translated ?worlds/ages?, not forevers. To say ?forevers? is to say something illogical in English that the bible does not say.

The plural expression Ealm Ealmyn translates as ?an age/world ages/worlds?. Never in regards to punishment, but only optimistically in reference to the Father and Yahshua is this phrase (Ealm Ealmyn) ever followed by the word amyn ("continuing" or "perpetual" or "amen"). The word amyn ("continuing") does not appear after the punishment period of the fallen ones, Ealm Ealmyn ("age/world ages/worlds").

As long as you live in the Father, you live like He lives - from age to age, from world to world, and beyond (amyn). Ealm Ealmyn in the positive sense can be likened to fractals that do not collapse on themselves but live in harmony. If you depart from His law/code, like many fallen angels did from previous ages/worlds, and you are not reconciled to the Father, then you receive punishment/consequence/reaction for a just amount of spacetime, whether that be instantaneous, years, an age, a world, or worlds/ages. But again, there is no amyn for the fallen ones - their punishment has an end, and indeed punishment is routinely described throughout the gospel as either a creature being refined or being destroyed. The Father is just, not some kind of sadistic torturer.

And this is the hardest part of the analysis for religious thinkers to grasp - perpetual ages/worlds refers to cycles (wheels within wheels if you prefer) that create and collapse ages/worlds (like pulsing tori/worlds that keep regenerating in different patterns). These cycles are part of the character of the Father and those who live in the Father (most prominently Yahshua). So the spacetime mechanics of Ealm Ealmyn cycles are beyond the perspective of men on earth.

If the gospel was going to suggest the meaning ?eternal? (outside the time dimension), then why does it not say something like la Eadna (?no time?). Likewise, if the gospel was going to suggest ?everlasting?, why does it not say something like zbna lyTh KhrTha[/i] (?time without end?). Even if mThum was used in that manner there might be room for argument. But quite simply, 'everlasting hell preachers' cannot find these words in the gospel to describe 'eternal life', so they mistranslate Ealm to fit their particular ideology. And the price of their mistranslation is that they are required to also preach 'eternal hell'.

Who would claim that Yahshua lacked the vocabulary to describe infinity if he wanted to? Again, would he not use words like zbna (time) and mmThum (ever) and la (not)? So, because he did not use such vocabulary ever to describe infinite time (not even once in the entire gospel), why do churches assume/translate the phrase into the text by mistranslating the word for world/age? What is to be gained by adding leavening to promises about the current world/age, or adding fear about a world/age to come? Who has benefited throughout history from promises of eternal salvation, and threats of everlasting torment unless the soul agrees to give its allegiance to their dogma and pay tithes? Answer: mystery Babylon, and her harlots go by many names - they are all over the globe yet they adhere and pay service to their mother church?s core dogma. Scholars have traced that dogma from our modern era backwards to Rome and beyond - from Greece, to Babylon, all the way back to ancient Egypt. For citations, see my article.

Given how similar ?hana? and ?ana? would sound to an Aramaic speaker, it helps emphasize that logic would be instrumental in receiving what the Messiah was saying about the world/age and his relationship to it. See for example John 6:47-48 where dEalm is immediately followed by ana (aleph-nun-aleph); see also John 9:5. And see John 6:40, where dEalm is immediately followed by uana. I think Yahshua is saying he is the resurrection, that in him one finds the new world to come. And I don?t think it is an accident that there is mystery here in the gospel. Proverbs 25:2, ?The honor of Elohim is to hide a word; and the honor of sovereigns to probe a word.? Matthew 13:52, ?And he words to them, because of this, every scribe discipled to the sovereigndom of the heavens is like a man ? a lord of the house who ejects from his treasure new and antiquated.?

Again, the bible instructs that (1) only the Father lives indefinitely, (2) if you remain in the Father you live as He lives, even from world/age to world/age, (3) if you depart from the Father's protection you die because that which remains outside the Father is eventually destroyed in its season. The promise of ?everlasting life? and ?everlasting torment? are both simplistic mistranslations favored by modern preachers -- people get especially drunk on the idea of ?everlasting life?, assuming it is correct doctrine because they hear it repeated so confidently by people speaking their worldly language.

In reality, the literal Hebrew & Aramaic is that your life continues from a world/age to a world/age as long as you remain in the Father; if you ever depart from the Father?s protection you?re dead, even if that death occurs 7 worlds/ages from this one. You may live from world to world for a while, but there is no explicit literal guarantee in the Aramaic Gospel or the Hebrew Old Testament that you will live for infinite time.

Indeed, many angels are recorded as starting off in the Father?s protection, but upon transgressing they are captured in chains of darkness and will be utterly destroyed at their appointed time. See e.g., Rev. 21:1-7; Isaiah 65:17-25; Matthew 7:13-14 (destruct); 10:42 (destruct), and 21:41-44 (pulverize); Ecclesiastes 12:7, ?Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto Eloha who gave it.? Ecclesiastes 3:20, ?All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.? Isaiah 26:14 regarding destruction of the wicked. Isaiah 28:28 regarding YHVH does not thresh in perpetuity.

John 5:39, ?Search the writings because in them you think that life dlEalm having to you. And they testify about me. And you do not desire coming toward me that life dlEalm will be to you. Praise from sons of men, I am not taking. But I know you, that His love, of Alha, not having in you.?

In Revelation, Satan too is tormented for a finite time described as a ?world/age worlds/ages?. In Rev 21:4, the text refers to the new earth when it says ?and death not will be?. Note that this same statement is conspicuously absent to describe the dragon?s punishment. Rather, the dragon?s punishment is explicitly described as ?second/dragon death? in the very next passage at Rev 21:8. After this phrase ?second/dragon death? appears in Rev 21:8, the dragon is not discussed again in the Book of Revelation, neither in Chapter 21 nor in Chapter 22. That is because the text just told us that the dragon is dead, no longer in existence.

When I read Mark 9:44 (?Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched?) I see the Messiah quoting Isaiah 66:24, which refers to the time period (age) of the millennial reign of Yahshua. During this limited time it appears there is a finite hell for evildoers that none may escape at that time, rather than a place of infinite torture. Another example of ?finite immorality? is in Revelation 9:11, where the wicked are unable to die for a finite period of time (5 months) ? they are temporarily immortal.

Ages and worlds are by definition finite in space and time. The literal text of the bible could have easily said ?tormented for time that does not end? or ?time that cannot end?, but it does not say that. I repeat - the literal text does not say that time does not end, or is somehow suspended (i.e., outside time). It is the religious commentaries that claim everlasting life and everlasting torment, whereas the literal text refers exclusively to finite planetary bodies (worlds) and finite time periods (ages).

[Image: lady_liberty_scales.jpg]

So then, what does it mean to live from world to world in the Father? Learn from the example of the torus that fluctuates in and out, birthing a new world with each emergence: Torus video. Scientific evidence supports this view of reality that our world is torus-shaped energetically, and the fractal motion of life reveals progression in time through this shape. See e.g., Infinity in the Finite, by Nassim Haramein

I think the Father chose the torus shape, and the torah law, to help reveal Himself to mankind. As we can learn from studying the imperfect history of torah-obedience, mankind adds to law and subtracts from it, and things are revealed in time through saga. As part of that saga, distortions of a perfect torah/torus by oppressive hearts cause oppression in the world. So too with science?

In making claims about ?infinity?, new-age religion and modern cosmology agree with themselves -- the former speak of being infinite beings, and the latter speak of an infinite number of universes. See e.g., Problems with Infinity

[Image: Thrive_PrintStill_120302_TorusEquation.jpg]

In the torus-context, the idea of ?infinity? is exposed as a mistranslation or simplification. It is more accurate to say that the torus expands and contracts repetitively, like a person breathing or a heart beating. So life survives from world to world by fractalization, in the fractal shapes desired by the Father (such as the Fibonnaci spiral represented by 1.618033).

Imagine and envision a hot plasma of possibility compressed into the size of a mustard seed, and when that seed expands its energy flows into the shape of a torus. And when it contracts, it flows back into the shape of a mustard seed. Repeat. This is a metaphor for our universe.

Amazingly, the focus of quantum physics is on calculating probability amplitudes (possibilities) in order to accurately predict the movement of light. Here is a quote from the famous physicist Richard Feynman:

Quote: Throughout these lectures I have delighted in showing you that the price of gaining such an accurate theory has been the erosion of our common sense. We must accept some very bizarre behavior: the amplification and suppression of probabilities, light reflecting from all parts of a mirror, light travelling in paths other than a straight line, photons going faster or slower than the conventional speed of light, electrons going backwards in time, photons suddenly disintegrating into a positron-electron pair, and so on. That we must do, in order to appreciate what Nature is really doing underneath nearly all the phenomena we see in the world. With the exception of technical details of polarization, I have described to you the framework by which we understand all these phenomena. We draw amplitudes for every way an event can happen and add them when we would have expected to add probabilities under ordinary circumstances; we multiply amplitudes when we would have expected to multiply probabilities. Thinking of everything in terms of amplitudes may cause difficulties at first because of their abstraction, but after a while, one gets used to this strange language.?

Richard Feynman, QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter, p. 119. See also, Renormalization article (?In short we have a fractal-like situation in which if we look closely at a line it breaks up into a collection of "simple" lines, each of which, if looked at closely, are in turn composed of "simple" lines, and so on ad infinitum.)

I?ll venture that these scientific matters are not only in harmony with the literal gospel, but that the gospel reveals them thousands of years ahead of the curve.

For example, because Ealma means both world and age, it is showing the interconnected relationship of space and time (what Einstein called ?spacetime?). In this, the literal bible shows another example of how it is years ahead of modern science.
According to the gospel, a rich man on earth cannot enter the kingdom of heaven just like a rope cannot fit through the eye of a needle. Hearing this, the disciples were worried that no human would be able to enter the kingdom of heaven. Then Yahshua comforted them, ?luTh bnynSha had la mShkKha luTh alha dyn klmdm mShkKha? (With men this is not possible, but with Alha, all things are possible.) The word for ?possible? in Aramaic is actually a wordplay for ?messiah?. In my worldview, the messiah is like a fractal of the Father, the Holder of all that is possible. From this Father of our universe I expect justice that is measurable - scales upon scales upon scales?

So, if we promise or measure infinities from our location here on earth, we are likely engaged in mistranslation from both a religious standpoint and a physics standpoint. To avoid mistranslation (e.g., claiming we are infinite beings, claiming we see particles traveling infinite speeds/distances), we can focus instead on possibilities. ?with Alha, all things are possible?. And we can focus on the literal definition of this Aramaic word Ealm (world/age). ?Behold, I work all new? (Rev 21:5).

[Image: torus-heart-wave.jpg]
Reply
#4
Here is the new video series I?ve prepared that focuses on the literal Aramaic [font="Estrangelo (V1.1)"]Ml9[/font] (?age/world?): Literal World Age

My hope is for these videos to have a positive impact (in further support of the already large body of bible scholarship) showing that ?everlasting hell? is a non-literal and false translation of the original Bible texts.

In the literal Bible, only the Father (and those who live in the Father, namely, the Son) live continually. As the bible emphasizes repeatedly, the wicked are tormented and then destroyed. All torment is finite, and the wage of sin is death.

Malachi 4:1, ?Behold, the day is coming, burning like a firepot; and all the proud, and every doer of wickedness shall be chaff. And the coming day will set them ablaze, says Yahweh of Hosts, which will not leave root or branches to them.?

Proverbs 12:7, ?The wicked are overthrown, and are no more, but the house of the righteous shall stand.?

Much more in the video?
Reply
#5
Thanks for the link Greg,

I found this on the other site you posted this on, with the bad filter job. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
Reply
#6
Right on, thank you for watching. I guess it was a crapshoot with that filter <!-- sWink --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /><!-- sWink -->

And yeah, I see you have some impressive Hebrew-study material over there as well, looking forward to reading more from you here Ronen. Given the unique ways that you study roots of words, you?ll naturally enjoy a lot of insights.
Reply
#7
Mark 10:30 has a famous promise, that disciples who give up good things in this world for the Messiah's sake will receive 100-times more in the world to come.  This promise helps show the character of the Father, as One who favors justice and measurement.  

Literal Mark 10:30, "There is no man who has left houses or brothers or sisters… because of me and my gospel and not will receive one hundred times the houses and brothers and sisters… ܘܒܥܠܡܐ ("and in the world/age") to come life ܕܥܠܡ ("that is to a world/age").  

Notice first that the text says 100-times more in the world to come, not infinitely more.  

But secondly (and more importantly to language scholars), Mark 10:30 is a serious reality check to preachers of infinity, because it defines the next world/age as a finite world/age like the present one. The text says so literally if you know how to read Greek or Aramaic.  As shown below, the Greek & Aramaic are in total harmony here on the grammar.

The key here is that the literal grammar is specifically saying that the world/age to come is a finite world/age, because we read the definite article ܥܠܡܐ ("the world/age") in the very same expression to expressly define the indefinite ܥܠܡ ("a world/age").  If you don't study language, this fact may not sound important, but it is enormously important.  Aramaic and Greek translators who use non-literal definitions are forced to awkwardly ignore this grammar in Mark 10:30 to fit their cherry-picked translations.  

That is why Mark 10:30 provides a reality check to preachers of man's infinite soul, and it is the elephant in the room for non-literalists.

The Greek of Mark 10:30 reveals the exact same conclusion as the Aramaic because the Greek also uses the definite article (iota) to qualify the verse "and in αιωνι (ah-ee-on-ee) ("the age/world") that is coming life αιωνιον (ah-ee-on-ee-on) ("age-during")."

By contrast, the non-literal Greek translation of Mark 10:30 is "and in αιωνι (ah-ee-on-ee) ("the age") that is coming life αιωνιον (ah-ee-on-ee-on) ("everlasting")."  The non-literal translation doesn't make sense ultimately; it tries to squeeze everlasting life into a single world or age.

Indeed, this Greek word αιωνι (ah-ee-on-ee) (just like the Aramaic ܥܠܡܐ ) is found throughout the gospel translated as "world" and "age".  So, it is hypocrisy to try to make the word infinite in Mark 10:30 when it is plainly finite everywhere else in the bible.

So Mark 10:30 is excellent evidence in the gospel to prove that the next age (or world) to come is not everlasting. Again, all ages/worlds are by definition finite or limited in space and time.  Only the Father lives indefinitely.  

Indeed, Mark 10:30 does not even attempt to limit the Father in any way, it simply provides further support for the proof that the Greek and Aramaic words for age and world are categorically finite. So if the gospel is ever going to describe something eternal or infinite or perpetual, the gospel needs to use different words or special words, rather than just describing a future age or world.  And indeed those different and special words are used in the bible but only to describe the Father living perpetually and eternally (i.e., Isaiah 43:10, Psalm 102:25-27), not to describe punishment. Punishment is described exclusively with finite words. 

In reading the bible literally, I've never found any promises of unconditional everlasting life.  Rather, I only see those statements in ancient secular sources (ie., from the Pharisees and Greek mystics who thought everything was eternal). You can read Greek literature for yourself - they used these words in reference to both 'gods' and 'men' who were killing each other and dying all the time.  Here is Philo, "Humans are immortal by reason of their heavenly nature, but just as degrees in this divine nature exist, degrees of immortality also exist."


Many Essenes also preached infinite hell.  Yahshua didn't join any of their groups.  Instead, He commanded, ܬܘ ܒܬܪܝ ("come after me").

Humans don't understand infinity, and Greek philosophers didn't know either; they were just making it up as they went along, and athanasia was one of the words they liked to throw around. 

When an English translation implies absolutes of infinite time and space and power that are not actually stated in the literal gospel text, I do not think it is fair to present those snippets as if they were clear scripture in support of infinite time and space and power.

A clear statement of infinite time would be, 'Every soul continues for time without end, regardless of worlds and ages' <-- not Yahshua's words, but quite easy to find in Greek literature.

You couldn't spin a dradle inside a library in the first century without hitting a book where the author claimed every soul was immortal, the gods were immortal (to the Greeks & Romans), etc.  - they expounded in great detail. But, key point, the bible was special because it never said that everything was immortal.  That was quite radical about the bible as a religious text.  In fact, the bible says repeatedly that all wickedness (not just some) will be destroyed by YHWH.  So YHWH was more powerful than the Greek gods.  When Matthew 10:28 refers to both "soul and body", that's an affirmation of YHWH's supreme power.  That's important to remember as Christians, that the bible was different than Greek and Jewish literature.  It is like how we remember that the Jewish temple was special because it did not have idols inside.  That fact was quite radical at the time because the temples of every other religion in the world focused on idols.  

In reading the bible literally, I see promises about life are specifically in reference to a world/age to come, such as John 10:28, which reads ܘܐܢܐ ܝܗܒ ܐܢܐ ܠܗܘܢ ܚܝܐ ܕܥܠܡ ܘܠܐ ܢܐܒܕܘܢ ܠܥܠܡ   ("And I give, I am to them life that is to a world/age, and they will not perish to a world/age")."

This language is a very specific promise about a world/age to come.  If the messiah was going to promise that someone will never perish ever, then the text should instead sayܠܐ ܢܐܒܕܘܢ ܡܬܘܡ   ("they will not perish ever"), or something similar to that. 

In Mark 10:30, why was this worker upset who labored “more”?  Was it because his 'infinite time' reward was the same as the other laborer's 'infinite time'? He wanted the other guy to get infinity minus 4 perhaps??   In this parable, why does the Messiah use measured examples, two laborers work for limited hours of the day, and each receive a limited reward of one coin (a dinar = day's wage). Same for the parable of the talents: 5 talents well invested earns that servant a large reward, but not an infinite reward.  

Realizing the Father's quality of measurement and proportionality is important.  He is a mathematician too.

If the Messiah wants to promise a disciple everlasting life, such that he will never ever fall from grace, then why not use language like this quote from Psalm 102:27, "Your years shall not be ended."  The psalmist said it about YHWH.  It's easy to say in any language... Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic.  Yet we can't find it any of these languages in the literal bible text about anyone other than YHWH.

I think we are supposed to be humble here on earth.  We are not supposed to claim, like the Pharisees did, and the Greek mystics did, and the Egyptian sorcerers did, that we are everlasting.  We don't get to labor on earth for 70-years or so in exchange for everlasting life.  Rather, the best we can do is labor, and pray to be in harmony with He who has perpetual life, and pray we'll stay in harmony as we navigate from age/world to age/world.  And know at all times whether we are rising or falling, that YHWH will do justice.  

Anything beyond the literal promises in the gospel is just people talking interpretations.  And in particular, this leavening of the words "aion" and 'olam' and 'Ealma' has produced some very drunken dogmas over the centuries, as religious men presume they drink from the Babylonian cup of 'immortality'.  

How much longer until YHWH pours out that cup?

If someone wants to believe in everlasting life for themselves, fine.  Know this though, that preaching has serious consequences.  It scared me greatly when I was a very young child (about 6) in Catholic school.  I remember sitting in church listening to sermons, and I would close my eyes and try to imagine heaven, and it was frightening to be told I will live in this one place (a white heaven) that just keeps going and going and going and never ends no matter what.  You have to realize, I wasn't scared about it in some casual sense.  I believed every single word of what the priest was saying.   It frightened me, it was bone chilling.  I have never wanted an infinite time life; that concept has never set right in my heart as a child or as a Christian adult.  Some might say that my heart at age 6 was flawed because it was not in harmony with the bible translation "forever and ever".  I don't think so.  I didn't even have the mental capacity then to agree to anything regarding infinity of any dimension; to sign up for that experience.  I don't think any human has the mental capacity to speak confidently about infinities, let alone agree to go for infinity rides with no exit door.

With that background about me, people will understand better why the literal text of the bible is so comforting to me. It shows the true character of the Father as One who continually transforms His creation through worlds and ages.  Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old.  And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall חעמד ("stand/endure").  All of them shall become old like a garment.  You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended." Only the Father lives perpetually. The Father has the power to destroy my soul if He wants.  That comforts me. 

Here is another example that proves this point.  John 11:25, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me, even if he should die he will live.  And whoever lives and believes in me to a world/age will not die."

Once again we see the promise of life is very specifically in reference to the world/age to come.  The indefinite form of the word is used ܥܠܡ ("a world/age") rather than the definite form ܥܠܡܐ ("this world/age"). 

If you depart from the Creator you will eventually die because that which is outside the Creator is destroyed in its appropriate season.  See scriptural cites below.  Indeed, there are many examples where angels choose to leave the rising and engage in the falling.  And in that falling, they do indeed die.  Jude 6, Genesis 6, Revelation 12. Ezekiel 28:16-19, brb rklThk mlu Thukd Khms uThKhta uaKhllk mhr alhym uabdk krub hskk mThuk abny aSh gbh lbk bypyk ShKhTh KhkmThk Eal ypEaThk Eal arTs hShlkThyk lpny mlkym nThThyk lrauh bk mrb Eunyk bEaul rklThk KhllTh mqdShyk uauTsa aSh mThukk hya aklThk uaThnk lapr Eal harTs lEayny kl rayk kl yudEayk bEamym Shmmu Ealyk blhuTh hyyTh uaynk Ead Eaulm ("In the abundance of your merchandise they filled the middle of you with violence and you have sinned. And I will cast you as profane from the mountain of Elohim, and destroy you, you covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.  Was lifted up your heart because of your beauty.  You have corrupted your wisdom because of your brightness.  Upon the ground I will cast you.  Before kings I will lay you, that they may look in you. By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade, you have defiled your sanctuaries.  And I will bring forth a fire from the midst.  It shall devour you. And I will bring you to ashes on the earth in the eyes of any who see.  All who know you among the peoples shall be appalled at the terror you shall be.  And you are not age-during.")

And as for man...

Proverbs 12:7, "The wicked are overthrown, and are no more, but the house of the righteous shall stand."

Matthew 10:28, "And awe not of them who slaughter the body and are not able to slaughter the soul: but awe of Him who is able to destroy soul and body in Gehanna, the Valley of Burning."

Proverbs 24:20, "The evil have no future. The lamp of the wicked will go out." 

In the psalms, King David describes the wicked "like chaff that the wind drives away… the wicked will perish" (Psalm 1:4 and 1:6).  And see how he describes the wicked as dead men that are not even remembered in Psalms 9:6 and 34:16.  David explains that the wicked "fade like the grass, and wither like an herb" (Psalm 37:2). They "shall be cut off…and…will be no more; though you look diligently for their place, they will not be there. (Psalm 37:9–10). "The wicked perish…like smoke they vanish away" (Psalm 37:20). "The transgressors shall be altogether destroyed" (Psalm 37:38).  The wicked are analogized to finite things like grass, and then the text explains that they are destroyed as finite things are destroyed. 

Nahum 1:9-10, "What are you plotting against Yahweh?  He will make an utter end; distress shall not rise up a second time…they shall be devoured like fully dried straw."

Malachi 4:1, "Behold, the day is coming, burning like a firepot; and all the proud, and every worker of wickedness shall be chaff.  And the coming day will set them ablaze, says Yahweh of Hosts, which will not leave root or branches to them."

Deuteronomy 32:4, "His work is perfect, for all his ways are justice: a God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and right is He."

Psalm 7:11, "God is a righteous judge, And He is not angry at all times."

Jeremiah 17:10, "I Yahweh search all hearts and examine secret motives. I give all people according to their ways, according to what their actions deserve." 

Who would presume they deserve everlasting life for infinite time simply because they passed one test with one life on one planet?  

I don't see how anyone can claim that they have achieved such 'oneness' with Yahshua on earth that they have a golden ticket to infinite time, and moreover that in navigating infinity permanently attached to God, that they will never fall from grace, regardless of how many angels before them fell from grace as recorded in the bible. 

Is YHWH really inviting the Messiah's disciples to become infinitely indestructible? If the Messiah did not promise infinity literally to his apostles, l-e-t-t-e-r  f-o-r  l-e-t-t-e-r, then it is speculation to put words in his mouth.  I mean, who would argue that it is perhaps what he was trying to say, but he just didn't it say it explicitly for some reason??  It would be exponentially easy to say in different ways, 'oh by the way, guys, if you believe in me, I'm going to carry you for infinite time and there is absolutely no way even my Father can destroy you ever.'  <-- That would have done the job, but no, that's not in the bible. 

Fallen angels are in the bible though, and they previously experienced grace in heaven.  A huge portion of the bible is devoted to showing their destruction and death, and then after Revelation 21:8 describes the "second death", they are no longer mentioned in the literal text, because they are dead and gone.  It would be an assumption to assume they are not gone.

The most commonly misunderstood verse for immortality of men is Revelation 21:4, ܘܗܘ ܢܠܚܐ ܟܠ ܕܡܥ ܡܢ ܥܝܢܝܗܘܢ ܘܡܘܬܐ ܠܐ ܢܗܘܐ ܡܟܝܠ ܘܠܐ ܐܒܠܐ ܘܠܐ ܪܘܒ ܐܘܠܐ ܟܐܒܐ ܬܘܒ ܢܗܘܐ ܥܠ ܐܦܝܗ

Again, I read letter for letter in the language of the apostles, so here is my hyper-literal translation,"And he will wipe away all/any tears from their eyes, and death/poison/oath will not be thereforward and not mourning/sorrow/penance/truly and not crying/uproar/clamoring/resounding/pleading/contending/rebuking and not pain/suffering/sickness/consumption/adversary again/return will be upon His/its faces."   Also note: the phrase "and not" that appears twice in this verse has the alternate translation throughout the bible, "it is proper".  

And then on top of that, the word ܡܟܝܠ ("thereforward") is a combination of the roots ܡܢ ("from") and ܟܠ ("any/all"), so the whole verse is naturally dependent on context for meaning (i.e., from who/what/where/when; all/any of who/what/where/when).   Here the context is set in terms of new Jerusalem in the new age/world; so that is the specific where  and when  that sets the context for how "death/poison/oath will not be thereforward," in new Jerusalem in the new age/world.  This verse does not say that the new Jerusalem in the new world/age continues for perpetual time or exists outside of time.  To claim perpetual time or eternal time from this verse would be an assumption outside the literal text. 

ܡܟܝܠ ("now" or "therefore") is used throughout the gospel in a limiting sense to some measurable amount of time or a measurable conclusion in a current world/age.  See e.g., Matthew 26:45 (referring to one night's sleep), Mark 11:14 (referring to the present world in comparison to a world to come), Mark 14:41 (same as Matthew 26:45), John 14:30 (messiah says he won't speak again at that time rather than ever again); John 17:11 (messiah says he won't be in the world again at that time rather than ever again).    Even the root of the word is ܡܢ ܟܘܠ ("from measurement").

Personally, I would not want to be the guy trying to limit the power of YHWH by arguing, 'well you know, Creator, you can't ever let New Jerusalem be utterly transformed or pass away because uhm my interpretation of Revelation 21:4 is that infinity of its existence was implied by the text even though it doesn't say infinity technically.'

Beware those who claim assumptions and interpretations are real.  Just ground yourself with the literal text, and then its plain to see that the promise of life is in a new world/age in the Messiah.  And that's a huge and worthwhile promise.  You live 70-years on earth, and pass your test with faith & works, and then you inherit a new world/age with all your brethren (everyone gets the same one reward just like in the parable of the servants above: a new world/age in the Messiah).  As for what happens specifically in that world/age, and who is rising and who is falling and who is transforming, that is beyond the horizon...

Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old.  And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall חעמד ("stand/endure").  All of them shall become old like a garment.  You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended."

Here is the actual literal translation of John 11:24-27, "Yeshua said to her, 'Your brother shall arise.' Martha said to him, 'I know that he shall rise in the resurrection in the last day.'  Yeshua said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life; whoever trusts in me, even if he dies, he shall live.  And any who live and believe in me ܠܥܠܡ ("to a world/age") shall not die. Do you believe this?' And she said to him, 'Yes, my Lord, I do believe that you are The Messiah, The Son of God, who has come into the world.'"

Yahshua specifically set the context -- "to a world/age" -- that is where/when a person will not die.  And further, Yahshua was responding to Martha's context, "in the resurrection in the last day".  Neither of these two contexts refer explicitly to infinite time or infinite space.   Accordingly, the translation "forever" is a non-literal assumption.  If Yahshua wanted to refer explicitly to infinite time, he could have done so easily by saying 'time without end'.  Or he could have even implied it by saying ܡܬܘܡ ('ever'), but he didn't say that either.  He said ܠܥܠܡ ("to a world/age"), which throughout the bible has a 100% consistent meaning in reference to a world or an age.  In this manner, the literal text of the bible is flawless.  

And when a person is transported "to a world/age" they do not become the entire thing.  When you are born on earth for example, you do not become the entire earth.  As students of language, we are not allowed to just insert the word "infinity" or "never" or "ever" where the text does not use it.   We are not allowed to conjugate the root word "age/world" so that the branch is divorced from the root.  

Notice John 8:51-52:  "Amen! Amen! I word to you, Whoever guards my word sees not death ܠܥܠܡ  ("to a world/age"). So the Judeans word to him, Now we know you have a demon: Abraham is dead — and the prophets: and you — you word, Whoever guards my word, he tastes not death ܠܥܠܡ  ("to a world/age")." 

Remember, the the Pharisees believed in "forever and ever", and Yahshua had previously told them in John 5:39 that they had the wrong thinking about this concept, "Examine the scriptures: for in them you presume to have life ܕܠܥܠܡ : and these are witnessing concerning me: and you will to not come to me to have life ܕܠܥܠܡ ."

The Pharisees had a habit of assuming infinities and even assuming that ܥܠܡ meant "ever", which is why John 8:51-52 makes sense.  They assumed Yahshua was lying because he said ܥܠܡ .  If you interpret it literally, then Yahshua is telling the truth.  But if you interpret it non-literally (as the Pharisees did), then Abraham will not die ever.   Indeed, even Simon Peter used the phrase like the Pharisees in John 13:8, and Yahshua immediately corrected him.  Here is the literal John 13:7-8, "Yahshua answers him saying, 'The thing I am doing you know not now: but afterwards you will know. Simon Kapa says to him,  ܠܐ ܠܥܠܡ you wash my feet."  Yahshua is explicitly advising Peter that Peter doesn't understand what's happening.  As Peter was using the term in a figurative sense (that is to mean "ever"), the messiah corrected him, and washed Peter's feet in that very moment.  If you are interested in further study here please review the old testament Hebraicism of 'foot washing' as an example of physical renewal, but let's move on... 

Notice how in John 10:27-29, Yahshua specifically qualifies that "no man" can destroy someone given to him, "My own sheep hear my voice and I know them: and they come after me and I give them life ܕܠܥܠܡ  ("that to a world/age"): and they destruct not ܠܥܠܡ ("to a world/age"), and no human seizes them from my hand. For my Father gave them to me, he is greater than all: and no human is able from the hand of my Father to seize them."

If saved men cannot be destroyed later, why would Yahshua limit his words twice to "no human". Why didn't he say "nothing ever" or "nothing in the universe" or "not even my Father", or anything along those lines to suggest infinite grace?  Shall we presume that YHWH himself lacks the power to destroy men who fall from grace?  Or if someone shall never fall from grace, then where is the explicit promise of that in the gospel?  I think the reason I can't find it in the gospel, is because the bible promises that YHWH transforms everything in its season, and only YHWH (and those who continue to live in Him, namely the Son) lives perpetually. Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old.  And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall חעמד ("stand/endure"). All of them shall become old like a garment.  You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended."

There is still more to this saga...  At the end of the fourth gospel, the beloved disciple makes a special point to challenge the rumor that had gone out among the disciples that the beloved disciple would not die.  As we read in John 21:23, "But Yahshua did not say that he [the beloved disciple] would not die, but rather, 'if I desire that this one remain until I return, what is that to you."

Matthew 11:14 regarding John the Baptist, "And if you desire to accept it, this is Elijah who was to come."

Regarding Mark 10:30, an interesting counterargument to my argument would be the text בעלמא דאתא ("in the age to come") is actually referring to the current age of Christianity on earth (i.e., 32AD through the present).  

In other words, as you believe in Yahshua the Messiah right now, then חיא דעלמ ("life of the age/world") has come to you right now.

Mark 1:15, "The time is complete. The kingdom of אלהא has arrived. Repent and believe in the gospel."

Matthew 10:7, "And as you are going, preach and say 'The kingdom of heaven has come near."

This counterargument to my Mark 10:30 theory is a logical possibility, as the text of Mark 10:30 is talking about "houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and fields" – we tend to associate these things with our terrestrial experience here on the current earth rather than a future in heaven.   

With that said, I also know from scripture that heaven & earth are mysteriously intertwined -- "...let Your kingdom come, and Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven...".  So even in this alternate theory of Mark 10:30, the current Christian church age on earth would also be reflected in heaven.  And it still emphasizes the greater point that we live from world/age to world/age.

I also want to address Luke 20:28-38…

Imagine Greg Glaser says: "I never eat anything that I don't purchase."  <-- by itself out of context in time and location, my statement sounds like I only eat food if I have purchased it myself, regardless of time or place.

But now read the larger context of my statement, "In the grocery store, I browse the bins filled with nuts and fruit.  I never eat anything that I don't purchase."

Understood?  Good.  Now you will see plainly why Luke 20:36 is commonly cited out of context for the proposition that angels cannot die.  In reality, the literal text clarifies the specific time and place that angels cannot die, which is in the resurrection or literally "the rising".  

Allow me to show this in detail... read Luke 20:36 out of context first so the time and location is beyond your horizon, "For neither can they die again, for they are like The Angels, and they are the children of God..."

Hmm, sounds like immortality out-of-context right?  But look what happens when we read the verse in the chapter literally, so we can actually see the precise time and location specified...

Luke 20:28-38, "But some of the Sadducees came, those who say that there is no resurrection, and they asked him, And they were saying to him, "Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man dies and his brother has a wife without sons, his brother shall take his wife, and he shall raise up a son to his brother. But there were seven brothers and the first took a wife and he died without sons. And the second took her for his wife, and he died without sons. And the third again took her and thus also the seven of them, and they died and left no sons. And finally the woman died also. In the resurrection therefore, whose wife will she be, for the seven of them married her?" Yeshua said to them, "The sons of this world take women and women are given to men.  But those who are worthy for [/b]that world and for the resurrection from among the dead[/b] are not taking women, neither are women taking men. For neither can they die again, for they are like The Angels, and they are the children of God because they are the children of the resurrection. But that the dead rise, Moses also declared, for he recounts at the bush, when THE LORD said, 'The God of Abraham and the God of Isaaq and the God of Jaqob.' But he was not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all of them were alive to him." 

Indeed, there are many examples where angels choose to leave the rising and engage in the falling.  And in that falling, they do indeed die.  Jude 6, Genesis 6, Revelation 12. Ezekiel 28:16-19 ("And I will cast you as profane from the mountain of Elohim, and destroy you, you covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.... And I will bring forth a fire from the midst.  It shall devour you. And I will bring you to ashes on the earth in the eyes of any who see.  All who know you among the peoples shall be appalled at the terror you shall be.  And you are not age-during.")

Secondly, the context in Luke 20:36 specifies that the reason the angels cannot die is because they are "sons of god".  There are several examples in the bible where a being can be a "son of god" and be mortal. See e.g., Hosea 1:10.

Third, reading Luke 20:36 to allow everlasting torment puts the verse directly at odds with Rev 20:14 regarding the second death.  

However, reading both verses literally creates no conflict between the verses and remains consistent with the entire bible that teaches that the wage of sin is death and that wickedness is utterly extinguished.  

So Luke 20:36 is another example emphasizing that we need to read verses in their entirety and not just snippets of verses, because ignoring even a single word can change an entire sentence.  For it is very different to say, "angels cannot die ever" compared to "angels are not able to die in the rising".  The first sentence is all encompassing, ever, whereas the second-sentence refers to a limited and defined experience, rising.   Again, compare 'falling angels' who do die, and do so repeatedly in the bible.  

The biblical principle here is the principle of exchange.  In falling to lower dimensions, or fleshly bodies, angels do not die in that one process.  But once they have become flesh after that process, they can die.  

What about nature?  Electromagnetism cannot be destroyed, but it can be converted to energy inside a plant, and that plant can be destroyed.  When the electromagnetism is converted to energy in the plant, we do not say that the electromagnetism died.  When the plant is placed inside a furnace, we do say that it is utterly extinguished.  It would defy logic and language to say the plant experiences everlasting torment in the furnace.  Incidentally, it also defies logic and language to say that the original electromagnetism that converted to plant energy is released in the furnace and trapped there as everlasting fuel for the fire.  

Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old.  And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall חעמד ("stand/endure").  All of them shall become old like a garment.  You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended."
Reply
#8
Hi Gregg,

I've done research on this too but I do not quite agree with you, if I've understood well. You are saying, that eternal, is not so eternal as we think?

You are also not very clear in statement, are you in fact saying: "Live in the age"? Because there are some translators who think it should be like that (universalists)

If you read John 3:16, there 'perish' is put in contrary to live, that is eternal.
"For so loved God the world, as his Son, the Only-begotten, he would give, that every one who believeth in him might not perish, but have the life which is eternal."

To Perish, is to end. Eternal is -not- to perish.

The same applies to john 6:27. Food, perishes. But the eternal live, does not.

Spirit, does not perish. Mattter, perishes. The world, and the material universe, perishes and will even be re-created, but spirits, are not made of atoms, obviously. Spirits, have gone out of Gods breath, since God is eternal, the spirits, that we are, are eternal.
Reply
#9
Thank you for the comment.  I think this is a fascinating topic, and a great opportunity to learn about ourselves and this gift of life ܥܠܡ from our Creator.

I would say that in the strictly literal Peshitta, the Messiah’s promise for the chosen is to receive life "to a world/age" ܠܥܠܡ in Him.  That is no small thing - to be born from the head into an entire new world/age. And then continual living is “world/age to world/age”, which you can only do if you stay in Yahshua.  Indeed, in the special case of the Father (and those who stay in the Father, namely, the Son), the literal text is ܥܠܡ ܥܠܡܝܢ ܐܡܝܢ (“world/age worlds/ages continually”). 

Nowhere does the Peshitta say 'once saved, always saved' or 'it is impossible to fall from grace'. 

Moreover, “eternal” is a different word/phrase entirely ܠܐ ܥܕܢܐ (“no time”) because it refers to living outside the time dimension or outside the existence of time.  So ܥܠܡ does not mean ‘eternal’ in literal Aramaic.  For example, eternal (outside time) is a non-literal translation because it attempts to defy the root word ܥܠܡ. If something (a root) starts off as one thing (i.e., a wheat seed, a word, a deer, a world/age ܥܠܡ), it cannot become infinite ܙܒܢܐ ܠܝܬ ܚܪܬܐ   (“time without end”), just by conjugating ܥܠܡ or rotating it or making it plural.  Words don't work that way in any language.  We have to build on what we have and a word cannot be separated from its context.  Some fun examples Wink  A potato on earth multiplied by ten or rotated does not become an indestructible potato throughout all space in the universe.  Or, can a potato or a planet be rotated into a timeless dimension?  A deer in Kansas multiplied by ten does not become infinity deer throughout multiverses.  A world/age multiplied by ten or rotated does not become an infinite universe of worlds.  However, flesh born into a world can survive death and be reborn in a new world/age.  But to say that 'flesh born into a world becomes infinitely indestructible' is to say something the bible does not say.

And the same analysis applies to eternal (outside time).  Worlds/ages are inherently time-based.  Physics also shows that time is simply perceived order among exchanges of energy.  But in any case, the fact that we experience Yahweh through time and space is quite revealing of our relationship with Him.  To seek a timeless world/age would be to live in something different than the root word ܥܠܡ. If the gospel was describing an existence outside time, then different words would be required, such as ܠܐ ܥܕܢܐ  (“no time”) or  ܠܝܬ ܥܕܢܐ   ("not having time") or ܥܕܢܐ ܠܒܪ   ("outside time").

Regarding your question about spirit being potentially immortal?  I would respectfully say ‘not literally’.  I would say Yahweh created everything, including time and spirits, and He can destroy anything He wants. 

“And Yahweh Elohim formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” Genesis 2:7. “The soul that sins, it shall die” Ezekiel 18:4; repeated again in verse 20.
  • Matthew 10:28, "And awe not of them who slaughter the body and are not able to slaughter the soul: but awe of Him who is able to destroy soul and body in Gehanna, the Valley of Burning."
  • Lev. 23:30 “The same soul will I destroy”
  • Joshua 10:35 “The souls that were therein he destroyed”
  • Psalm 22:29 “None can keep alive his own soul”
  • Psalm 78:50 “Spared not their soul from death”
  • Psalm 89:48 “Deliver his soul from the hand of the grave”
  • Ezekiel 22:27 “Destroy souls”

Nowhere in the Bible do we find the term “immortal soul”.  The soul is mortal, so it can be destroyed.
If John 3:16 was really promising unending life for all of space & time, then the text should use the same wording we see elsewhere to describe YHWH, such as Psalm 102:27, "Your years shall not be ended."  The psalmist said it about YHWH.  It's easy to say in any language... Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek.  Yet we can't find such a statement in any of these languages in the literal bible text about anyone other than YHWH.

Isaiah 65:17-20, "For behold, I am creating new heavens, and a new earth, And the former things are not remembered, Nor do they ascend on the heart…. No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred, And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred will be thought accursed."
 

“I am he. No god was formed before me, and none will outlive me." Isaiah 43:10

There are also countless verses describing the destruction of the lost, and that the spirit returns to Yahweh.  I like this one in particular, "And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to אלהימ who gave it."  Ecclesiastes 12:7.

John 3:16 was a promise in a limited context (“to a world/age”), and indeed in many respects it was an earthly & temporal context, as we read the fuller passage in John 3:12 (“If about this world I have told you and you do not believe, how if I speak to you about heaven will you believe?”) and then from John 3:14 all the way through John 3:21,  all of the examples continue to be worldly, especially the first one, “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, thus the Son of Man is prepared to be lifted up so that any man who believes in Him will not destruct but will have life that is to a world/age.  For thus, Alha loved to this world/age so likewise He gives His unique Son, that whoever is believing in Him does not destruct but will be to him life that is to a world/age.  For Alha did not send His Son into this world to condemn to this world/age but that life to this world/age through Him.”

Simply, John 3:16 is in harmony with the rest of the gospel. It does not stand alone as an implied or assumed promise that souls are eternal because YHWH somehow cannot destroy souls.  Notably, Greeks & Egyptians & Pharisees believed every soul was eternal.  They believed in both everlasting torment and everlasting life. Remember, in John 3:16, the Messiah is speaking with a Pharisee (Nicodemus) who does not understand the rebirth concept (“Are you a teacher of Israel and you do not understand these?”)

So it is quite important to acknowledge John 3:16 does not stand alone as a promise that YHWH cannot destroy souls, but rather John 3:16 is in complete harmony with the remainder of the gospel, including for example the passages above John 11:24-27, John 8:51-52, John 10:27-29.  In all of these passages, promises of life are limited "to a world/age".  And conspicuously absent from these promises is any reference to "beyond" a world/age, because "beyond" is only used in reference to YHWH. That's a key point, fundamental really.

Let’s discuss Hebrew roots too... given the seriousness of the matter at issue here, if עולמ ever meant 'everlasting' then there should be some statement in scripture defining it clearly as a time period that does not end or that cannot end.  I have never found any such statement in the bible, ܙܒܢܐ ܠܝܬ ܚܪܬܐ   (“time without end”).

Indeed,
עולמ frequently refers to a short time period, such as in Jonah 2:6.  "I went down to the moorings of the mountains; the earth with its bars closed behind me לעולמ yet You have brought up my life from the pit, YHVH, my Elohim."  

In this case of Jonah, 
עולמ  meant only three days, which shows its true meaning is finite (often simply a world/age beyond the horizon to the observer).

There are countless examples where 
עולמ refers to a definite/limited period of time that could not logically be everlasting or eternal. See e.g., Exodus 21:6 "then hath his lord brought him nigh unto Elohim, and hath brought him nigh unto the door, or unto the side-post, and his lord hath bored his ear with an awl, and he hath served him — to the age."

Indeed,
עולמ can only be understood in context.   I think the Hebrew/Aramaic language itself makes that plain, even though the Israelites often disagreed on interpretations. For example, many Pharisees preached everlasting souls just like the Greek mystics did.  

Consider this modern translation (KJV) of Psalm 45:6: "Thy throne, O God, [is] age-during and for ever
עולמ ועד, A sceptre of uprightness [Is] the sceptre of Thy kingdom."

The King James Version incorrectly translates
עולמ ועד as "for ever and ever," which would not be logical because the Bible uses this same Hebrew phrase, עולמ ועד, in Exodus 15:18 (perhaps best translated as YHVH reigns — to the age, and beyond)'.  If עולמ meant "forever" by itself, why do we find constructs (such as ועד) which tell us there is a "beyond" this "forever," as in Exodus 15:18.

As we see throughout the bible,
עד simply means 'continuing' or 'during'.  It does not mean perpetual by itself, let alone 'everlasting' or 'forever'.   Indeed,  עד is/was a finite temporal word used in normal everyday Hebrew speech.  It also means "witness" – the word is indeed grounded in reality. 

I would venture that as witnesses today, we have not experienced infinity or eternal.  Rather, at our best we only experience/witness perpetual systems.  I think the bible is teaching us that lesson when we read it literally, to be honest witnesses of our perspectives given to us, rather than perspectives outside of our horizon. 

As for the Hebrew/Aramaic word
עולמ (olam), it is inherently grounded in the humility of the observer.  That's the traditional Hebrew perspective.
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)