Masoretic text altered to make NT look bad?

[Andrej]

The differences stem, in my opinion, from different views on what proper translation means. For them, paraphrasing was all fine.

[IPOstapyuk]

From my research plus having other well researched information it looks like:
1. In Masoretic text the Jews altered chronology (very heavily) and
prophecies about Christ (or what relates to Christianity) in their struggle against Christ. Other corruption about destination of Israel. When all this was done, it is possible that they altered other stuff as well.
This happened at the dawn of Christianity. The problem is that their manuscripts
match to make their idea stronger. The Masoretes were just students and faithfully copied what was told them to do.
For example, when following chronology of the Masoretic text, it looks that Babylonian captivity happened around 175 BC.
2. Origen tried to restore it all and copied verses from New Testament into
Septuagint to make them look exact alike. But we have many versions of the Septuagint that make all this unreliable.

When looking logically, it appears that both corruptions of the Masoretic text and the Septuagint were willful.

[Stephen Silver]

From my research plus having other well researched information it looks like:
1. In Masoretic text the Jews altered chronology (very heavily) and
prophecies about Christ (or what relates to Christianity) in their struggle against Christ. Other corruption about destination of Israel. When all this was done, it is possible that they altered other stuff as well.
This happened at the dawn of Christianity. The problem is that their manuscripts
match to make their idea stronger. The Masoretes were just students and faithfully copied what was told them to do.
For example, when following chronology of the Masoretic text, it looks that Babylonian captivity happened around 175 BC.
2. Origen tried to restore it all and copied verses from New Testament into
Septuagint to make them look exact alike. But we have many versions of the Septuagint that make all this unreliable.

When looking logically, it appears that both corruptions of the Masoretic text and the Septuagint were willful.

Shlama Akhi Ivan:
Can you show some documentation to verify your beliefs about the Jewish Bible (Old Testament)? Can you show where the Massoretic text is in discrepancy with the Dead Sea Scrolls portions of the Bible? Can you read Hebrew? Often times views on the Jews and the Jewish Bible are formed by an inadvertent prejudice, often coming to us via well-meaning Christian sources. Studying the Scriptures often brings us to cross-roads where we have to choose between the unbalanced teaching of "replacement theology" vis-a-vis the original text inspired by the Holy Spirit. The truth of the scriptures always rings true, so we are always looking for the source text. There are minor changes to the Massoretic text but the marginal notes show the original. There are many Hebrew texts of the Jewish Bible showing various marginal notes and no single manuscript has all of them. The Massorites were the first to analyse and thoroughly catalogue these variants and alternate readings. There is much to be said for the Massorites and the commonly used Massoretic text of the Jewish Bible. I would not dismiss it too quickly. As for Israel it rings true, and our Lord Yeshua varified this by his many quotes.
As for the chronology of the Jewish Bible it was the Christian Church that changed the chronology not the Massorites. This is an area of study that I need to look into because I'm not sure of the dates. It would be premature for me to say how or why the Chronology was changed. It is unlikely that the Dead Sea Scrolls were altered because of Christianity or any other willful reason. The Scribes were very devoted to the text of the Torah, the Prophets and Writings. The very scriptures that Yeshua read in the synagogue rang true from his lips. Yeshua never said that the scriptures were unreliable. So the Dead Sea Scrolls, which we have today were written before Christ and were most likely the same precise text that he read in the synagogues.

Shlama,
Stephen Silver
Dukhrana Biblical Research
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[IPOstapyuk]

Shlama Stephen,

Personally I know Hebrew and rarely look into dictionary.
I know my statement is sharp and am going to give you the source.
I am not an advocate neither Masoretic text, nor Septuagint.
As for me, the salvation is in 22 books Peshitta Gospel but living in
Old Testament times is a waste of time for me since I not want to mix life in
Christ with life in Adam. But it is a theological subject, so I put it aside on this forum.

Back to the credibility of Masoretic text.
My source is the book called "Two Bibles - Two Ways" that was published in Moscow (Moskva), Russia but I have it in pdf format as photocopy. It is in Russian language but anybody can use e.g. Google translator into English.
The author strongly defends Septuagint but I know that Septuagint is a corruption too.
On the other side he devoted his work on exposing the Masoretic text and I do believe that everybody should know this who is so much engaged into the Masoretic text.

The author uses Hebrew to show exact extracts. He keeps the point that during the time of rabbi Aqiba the corruptions by the Talmudists took place to discredit the Christianity and to prove that Jesus is not the Messiah. He gives a lot of heavy examples where Masoretic text contradicts Septuagint and the New Testament concerning the prophecies about the Messiah. Also, he showed chronology of the Masoretic text and proved by clear examples that it contradicts the usual history and archeology. It shifts around 400 years or so. He affirms that it is result of war between Talmudic Judaism and Christianity.

My friend who was all his life devoted to Judaism, after reading this book and collating to history facts became very disappointed to what he believed before.

If people on this forum are interested in it, I surely can give some examples from this book although I am not much interested in digging into Old Testament times.

Ivan.

PS. By the way, the DDS agree with Septuagint 88% and with Masoretic text on 12% concerning the prophecies about Christ. So, the Masoretic readers should seriously think about it.

[Stephen Silver]

Shlama Akhi Ivan:
When I ask for examples I am referring specifically to those in the Jewish Bible, taken from the Massoretic text. I'm a seeker of truth and the Massoretic text is the best record I've seen. There is no absolutely perfect and total reading of the Jewish TaNaK but the Massoretic text with it's marginal corrections is right up there as far as accuracy is concerned.
So, if you want to give a few specific examples where there is willful or negligent falsehood please this is the place and time, Akhi Ivan. Christian Ginsburg helped to collate, catalogue and clarify the Massoretic text and he was a Christian. The Jews are not ambivalent to the Word of God. Yeshua said "search the scriptures. There was no written New Testament at that time so he was referring to the TaNaK (Torah-Law, Neviim, Prophets and the Khetuvim, Writings) Also Paul wrote, :The Word (oracles) of Alaha are committed to the Jews, so one can surely trust the judgement of Alaha in His sovereign will to delegate this divine authority.

Shlama,
Stephen Silver

[IPOstapyuk]

but the Massoretic text with it's marginal corrections is right up there as far as accuracy is concerned.

This is why I left Greek New Testament in Greek, they have corrections on corrections.
I studied Greek and now I see I wasted time, who knew but I was looking for the living Word of God.

Yes, this is free discussion and as soon as I get time I am to post logic of the book.
I think, I don't offend Masoretic text advocates.
Let us see what is going on.

[IPOstapyuk]

Ok, as I see the author is a rep of Russian Orthodox Church.
The Christianity in Russia started at 988 CE and they got Bible
from Greek Orthodox Church and faithfully keep to the text until now.
He states that this OT is a copy of the LXX ( I am to refer to this OT as to LXX here), so the extracts are from this Bible plus I have to translate it into English.
Also, here I want to bring up the corruptions as he says that is result of continuing war against Christ Jesus.
We can compare it all to Masoretic, LXX versions, Greek NTs, Peshitto and Peshitta, whoever is
interested to.

1. Is. 7:14
in LXX is "virgin"
in Masoretic is "young woman".
Gen. 24:43 he gives example of "alma - girl".

2. Is. 7:16
LXX: "Before he starts understand and tell bad from evil, he will reject evil and choose good,...".
In Masoretic text this logic is absent
he goes on that
Ps. 50:7 " In inequity I was conceived and born in sins" as this goes for usual people.

3. Ex. 1:5
LXX: 75 people
Masoretic: 70 people

4. Gen. 49:9
LXX "..of lions, Judah, ...my son, went up, lied down and fall asleep (or died?)...who can raise (wake up) him?"
I think Semitic person can clarify all this.
Masoretic " ...lion Judah, ...retreated, stepped down and lied down...who can bother him?".

5. Num. 24.5,7,17
What is absent from Masoretic and present in LXX
" Israel...man will come out from his seed and conquer many nations...".
Psalms numbers are shifted between LXX and Masoretic.

6. Ps. 39:7
LXX "...prepared the body". It corresponds to the Epistle of Hebrews
and it is not paraphrasing.
Masoretic"...opened my ears".

(to be continued)

[IPOstapyuk]

Before I continue with the texts corruptions concerning the Messiah,
I want to point out that in Masoretic Tanach father Cainan is removed.
By removing him 135 years are removed from the chronology.
In Gen. 11:12 Cainan is absent in Masoretic text but present in LXX,
Vulgate, Greek, Peshitta and Peshitto.
Lamsa:
Luke 3:36 - The son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech.

[Stephen Silver]

Ok, as I see the author is a rep of Russian Orthodox Church.
The Christianity in Russia started at 988 CE and they got Bible
from Greek Orthodox Church and faithfully keep to the text until now.
He states that this OT is a copy of the LXX ( I am to refer to this OT as to LXX here), so the extracts are from this Bible plus I have to translate it into English.
Also, here I want to bring up the corruptions as he says that is result of continuing war against Christ Jesus.
We can compare it all to Masoretic, LXX versions, Greek NTs, Peshitto and Peshitta, whoever is
interested to.

1. Is. 7:14
in LXX is "virgin"
in Masoretic is "young woman".
Gen. 24:43 he gives example of "alma - girl".

2. Is. 7:16
LXX: "Before he starts understand and tell bad from evil, he will reject evil and choose good,...".
In Masoretic text this logic is absent
he goes on that
Ps. 50:7 " In inequity I was conceived and born in sins" as this goes for usual people.

3. Ex. 1:5
LXX: 75 people
Masoretic: 70 people

4. Gen. 49:9
LXX "..of lions, Judah, ...my son, went up, lied down and fall asleep (or died?)...who can raise (wake up) him?"
I think Semitic person can clarify all this.
Masoretic " ...lion Judah, ...retreated, stepped down and lied down...who can bother him?".

5. Num. 24.5,7,17
What is absent from Masoretic and present in LXX
" Israel...man will come out from his seed and conquer many nations...".
Psalms numbers are shifted between LXX and Masoretic.

6. Ps. 39:7
LXX "...prepared the body". It corresponds to the Epistle of Hebrews
and it is not paraphrasing.
Masoretic"...opened my ears".

(to be continued)

Shlama Akhi Ivan:
I'll answer 1) as best as I can, because I must first understand what you are really trying to say in points 2) to 6). I have checked them out by looking up the passages in the Massoretic Text, and I still don't understand what your point is. However 1) is instructive, so here is my understanding. B'tulah needs a marital disclaimer as in Genesis 24:16 "b'tulah v'ish lo yad'a", "a virgin and no man had known her". Haal'mah does not not need a marital disclaimer as in 24:43. In Isaiah 7:14 "haal'ma". So with the disclaimer they are equivalent. Both the Great Isaiah Scroll and the Massoretic text agree on "haal"mah" in 7:14. The same is true in Luke 1:27, "lot b'tulah d'makhira l'gowra". The marital disclaimer is "espoused to a man". It means "engaged" in the purest sense.
The TaNaK was written in Hebrew, not Greek. I wouldn't place too much weight on any Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures.
The same goes for the New Testament which was originally written in Aramaic, not Greek. Please excuse me while I digress for a brief moment, Ivan.There is much prejudice against the Jews. The May Laws of 1882 are a case in point. The pogroms in the Pale of Settlement is another infamous point, which must be made. One must be careful when quoting from authors that appear to have an anti-Semitic past. Even Martin Luther wrote "Concerning the Jews and their Lies". These people, though greatly esteemed as Church leaders and reformationists hated the Jews and persecuted them. One of Yeshua's titles is King of the Yehudim and He has never relinquished this title.

Shlama,
Stephen Silver
Dukhrana Biblical Research
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[IPOstapyuk]

Continue concerning texts related to the Messiah.


7. Ps. 44(45):8
LXX :"..therefore, O God, your God annointed you...".

I propose to look at Lamsa:
Hebrews 1:8 - But of the Son he said, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the scepter of thy kingdom is a right scepter.
Hebrews 1:9 - You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore, God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness more than your fellows

Masoretic "Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You".

8. Ps. 87:5
LXX "Mother Zion says: ...man is born...and he is the base and Most High".
Masoretic: "87:5 But of Zion it shall be said, "This one and that one were born in her"; And the Most High Himself will establish her.".

9. Ps. 110:1
LXX:" The Lord says to my Lord ...".
Masoretic:" The Lord says to my master ...".
or "n'um YHWHlaadoni".
I have to put my commentaries for clarifications and use Lamsa to
support the truth. This verse is mentioned in the NT but not sure where it is.

10.
LXX: "From the womb of the dawn I had given birth to you".
Masoretic: "...from the womb of the dawn, your
youth are to you as the dew.".

11. Is. 57:1,2
LXX "...he is lifted from the midst of them...".
Masoretic: "...he goes to peace".

12. Is. 3:9,11
LXX:"...let us tie up the righteous one for we not need him".
Masoretic: "..say to the righteous one that it is goo to him for he will eat (taste?)
results of his works".

13. Hezekiel 26:29.
LXX "...and i will clean you from all your sins...".
It is absent in the Masoretix text.

14. Is. 8:14,15
LXX: " ...you will hope in him..and you will not stumble on stumbling rock or falling rock...".
Masoretic:
8:14 "Then He shall become a sanctuary; But to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike and a rock to stumble over,

15. Is. 42:1-4
LXX and Math 12:15-21:" ...and nations will hope on his name".
Masoretic:"...and islands will hope on his law".

If anybody wants to explore more, there plenty of opportunity.
-------------------------------------------
Next he says that in Masoretic it reads
YHWH and Elohim
whereas in Dead Sea Scrolls its says Laloho

[Stephen Silver]

Shlama Akhi Ivan:
I am finished with this debate. It is important not to prolong a dialogue when nothing is to be gained. Let us humbly agree to disagree and move on to sometrhing else. I would like to call it inconclusive since we have not arrived at an agreement. It's not the end of the world. It's just that you and I are not in agreement. So, let's agree to disagree. Nothing is lost or gained except good will between us. That's the precious aftermath and more important, in my eyes than pushing this thing any further.

Shlama,
Stephen Silver,
Dukhrana Biblical Research
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[IPOstapyuk]

Shlama akhi Stephen,

I was going to show chronology and
many other things. Also I thought it would be for other people too.
But if you said to close this thread, your word is final since you are
forum moderator.
The debate is closed.

Ivan.

[Stephen Silver]

Shlama akhi Stephen,

I was going to show chronology and
many other things. Also I thought it would be for other people too.
But if you said to close this thread, your word is final since you are
forum moderator.
The debate is closed.

Ivan.

Shlama Akhi Ivan:
I'm not using my power as Forum Moderator. You have done nothing to deserve any reprimand for speaking from your heart and accumulative experience, Akhi Kabiba. When I have seen that we are not going anywhere because you are a Greek Primacist of the Old Testament ( correct me if I have misunderstood you) and I am a Hebrew Primacist of the Jewish Bible/Old Testament, it seems reasonable to me to stop what is turning into a lame debate. You have consistently quoted from the LXX and I have stated that I have no real trust in translations, where the roots are not shared. The LXX is a translation from an ancient Hebrew source. I will compare the Massoretic Text with the Dead Sea Scrolls where applicable. All of us would like to be knowledgeable of the original Hebrew Source and many are put off because of variants which cause confusion as to what was originally intended. Have you not stated that you do not read the Jewish Bible/Old Testament, in that you have the New Testament (do I understand this correctly?). As I have stated, Yeshua used the Hebrew Scriptures of his day and perhaps also the Aramaic Targums (paraphrase used in the synagogue along with the Hebrew Text. His quotes line up with the Massoretic text or the Dead Sea Scrolls, and even sometimes with the LXX. You must understand that the LXX is an independent witness of the originality of the Hebrew Scriptures, but since it doesn't share any Semitic Roots, I question its credibility as a translation. It's an idependent witness but not a precise translation.
It is instructive to understand that the Aramaic of the Codex Ambrosius is interlinear and quite accurate because the roots are shared, the grammer is the same, for the most part and the alphabet is identical. The Targums, on the other hand are a paraphrase, but this was an acceptable way of reading and "giving the sense" of the Haftara portion of the service. The LXX completely misses the Hebrew idioms, so it's no wonder that discrepancies will arise between the Massoretic Text and the LXX in many places.
These are my reasons for stopping the thread, not at all because I'm a Forum Moderator. Any member has this same option, including you. If in any way you find my post offensive to you please let me know. I don't want to come across as brutal or insulting in any way to you or anyone else.

Shlama,
Stephen Silver
Dukhrana Biblical Research
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[IPOstapyuk]

Shlama akhi Stephen,

You misunderstood me. I am neither Greek OT primacist nor
Masoretic OT primacist. To be more exact
I am DSS primacist.

I agree with you that using LXX is not a clear proof since the
LXX is corrupted and has many versions.
If you permit me, I have more to say about corruption of the Masoretic
text not mentioning LXX any more but using the Masoretic text itself, chronology, historical evidence etc., otherwise this discussion here is closed and I am sorry
for any inconvenience.

Ivan.

[The Texas RAT]

Shlama akhi Stephen,

I was going to show chronology and
many other things. Also I thought it would be for other people too.

Ivan.

Ivan please continue your side of this story as I am interested in what you have to show. Stephen said he will stay away as he prefers not to listen to you, yet I am willing, awmain. So if you are still interested in sharing please continue.