Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Aramaic Primacy vs. the KJV Only Movement
I don't know about you guys, but the most stubborn people I've ever encountered when discussing Aramaic primacy are those who belong to the KJV Only Movement. They refuse to even consider that their beloved Textus Receptus is not best version of the NT. Here's an article from one of them, akh Paul, I'm sure gonna love this one:

Does the Aramaic Bible,
or the Peshitta,
call the God of the Bible Allah?

There has recently developed a debate, mostly on the Web, as to the name of Allah used in the Aramaic manuscript of the Bible. It is claimed by Islamic scholars that this proves that the original name of God is Allah. There are several reasons why this is a lie:

1. The Peshitta and the Aramaic were not used in the translation of the King James Bible. Only the Greek texts were used. God allowed the Muslim armies to attack Constantinople BEFORE the Aramaic Bible was accepted by the Greek Church. The Greek monks of Constantinople fled their churches with the Greek manuscripts they had from Antioch and the Eastern churches NOT polluted by Syrian pagan notions from Mesopotamia. Thus, the King James Bible was protected by God from pollution by the Aramaic texts. There must be some reason that the Aramaic text of the Bible does not please God.

2. The Muslims and "Jews for Allah" claim that the Western Aramaic text of the Peshitta, was corrupted and changed by Reformers to come in line with the King James principles or with Erasmus. This is an old saw. Whenever things don't agree between the Koran or Islamic myth, the Muslim scholars claim someone altered all the other texts than the ones they like. The cute thing is that the Peshitta and Aramaic did not come to Europe until at least the 18th century. Here is what Jews for Allah (This is a real group of Jews) Say:

The real message of the life and teachings of Jesus, Muhammad and Nestorius can be likened to that of the Peshitta and the Qur'an. The Church of the East claims that every copy of the Peshitta ever made was certified by every Bishop to be a true and clean copy, the meaning of the word "Peshitta" itself. The Qur'an is likened unto it. The Peshitto or Peshitta of the West was changed, not so often as present day Christian Bibles but changed in ancient times. The Torah was destroyed with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and since has suffered a worse fate. There were only two such scrolls at the time. One was held by the priests, the other by the King. In those times families were charged with the memory of whole books and what was created has been re-written many times to suit the purpose of the writers as with the many versions of the Christian Bible.

So, the final authority to these people, as to the authentic Word of God, is the word of a Nestorian Patriarch who does not believe that Jesus was one person, that is, God and man from birth to death and remaining both to this hour. (More on this below) What lousy authorities these heretic bishops are, and so, what a lousy manuscript these patriarchs offer us. No wonder the Muslims love the Peshitta and the Aramaic, at least the late great model.

3. The fact is, the Aramaic and Peshitta were altered and revised over and over through the ages, and when the Aramaic was finally delivered to Europe in the 18th Century, it was not in any way close to the original Aramaic. The altering of the "original" Aramaic was done by the people in the Middle East, not Germany. Furthermore; the oldest Aramaic text is only dated to about 450 AD. This was before Constantine had taken power in a big way, so the claim is that it predates the Roman Western texts. The problem is, the Aramaic text was the text of the Nestorians, and eventually, the Eastern Catholic Church.

Nestorianism is a 5th-century Christological heresy. Nestorianism takes its name from Nestorius, bishop of Constantinople (428-31). Nestorius taught that Christ had two natures-- a divine and a separate human nature. Nestorius was condemned by the Council of Ephesus (431), which was convened specifically to settle the dispute. There the orthodox doctrine on the nature of Jesus Christ was clarified: Christ was pronounced true God and true man, as having two distinct natures in one person --a position that was reaffirmed by the Council of Chalcedon in 451 A.D. Nestorius was deposed as bishop and sent to Antioch. Today a Nestorian church survives in the East and has since taught, in opposition to the orthodox doctrine, that there are two persons in the incarnate Christ, human and divine. Copyright © Grolier Electronic Publishing, Inc.

As to the Catholic impact on the choice of the Aramaic and Peshitta texts:

"With reference to.... the originality of the Peshitta text, as the Patriarch and Head of the Holy Apostolic and Catholic Church of the East, we wish to state, that the Church of the East received the scriptures from the hands of the blessed Apostles themselves in the Aramaic original, the language spoken by our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and that the Peshitta is the text of the Church of the East which has come down from the Biblical times without any change or revision."
Mar Eshai Shimun by Grace,
Catholicos Patriarch of the East

So, we see that the Nestorians, and the Eastern Catholics, had a two person Christ. This is nothing but a modification of Gnosticism which claimed that Christ the human was born, and at his baptism the second Christ the God took habitation in the body of Christ the human.

It is only a small step to join with the Islamic notion of Christ being only one person and not God. The Eastern Syrian Church has been tolerated for centuries by the Muslims because they picked up the name Allah and used it in their Bible instead of El or Elohim.

4. Jesus settled it for us as to the name of God in Hebrew and Aramaic:

Matthew 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.

We see here two witnesses to the fact that the name of God is El.

Verse 46. Eli, Eli, etc. This language is not pure Hebrew, nor Syriac, but a mixture of both, called commonly Syro-Chaldaic. This was probably the language which he commonly spoke. The words are taken from Psalm 22:1. (Barnes notes)

Jesus was speaking a combined use of Aramaic and Syriac, which is the alleged foundation of the Aramaic from Chaldea where the present day Baith Catholic Church is located, in Syria and in Iraq. Jesus used the Hebrew name for God, El, and he added the possessive suffix, i. Thus, Eli, or "My God."

This also implies that Jesus never used the Aramaic name for God because it may have already been corrupted. In this book I have shown that the name of Allah derived from pagan forms staring at the Tower of Babel. This tower, and Sumer where the gods IL and ILAH evolved, were just up the road from Israel. So some primitive Allah form may have already been in use in Jesus' day. He rejected it and used the name EL or ELOHIM for the God of the Bible.

God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have placed a number of highly urgent wordings in the Word of God in an obvious way so that these wordings would be powerful weapons against Satanic attacks on our faith 2000 years later. In his divine omniscience, Jesus Christ spoke some very special words, in the midst of his suffering, with us in mind. Jesus wanted us to win this debate against Muslim blasphemers. Praise his holy Name.

The second proof in the Matthew text above is found in verse 47 where the people standing by thought Jesus was calling to Elias, or Elijah, whose name means, Eli-Jah, or "My God, Yaweh." If Jesus had said, "Allah, Allah, etc etc" the bystanders would not have been able to make the association with Elias in any way, shape, or form.


What is the issue with the Aramaic text?

The present Aramaic text, and probably many forms of the evolving Peshitta after Muhammed's day, DO use the name Allah for God in various ways. Here is the list of close ones anyway:

B'aALaHaA (This lets Baal into God's name. This is a polution from Babylon where the Nestorians lived.)
AaLaH (Not used of the God of the Bible in the Aramaic)
AiYL (This is a pure pagan form based on Illah of Babylon)
And, 46 more variations

You can see that the Aramaic names of God in their alleged Bible never once made any effort to use El or Elohim, as Jesus did. So, we see the post-Islamic pollution of the later era Aramaic and Peshitta were polluted by Muhahhed's god, Allah, whom Muhammed salvaged from the Kaaba when he evicted the other 365 pagan gods stored there before 650AD. The Eastern Catholic Church has bowed to Mecca in order to curry favor with Islam.


There is NO reason for any true Bible believer to apologize for the use of the name Allah in the Aramaic or the Peshitta. The versions of those texts today are a joke since the metropolitans and bishops of the Syrian Church have corrupted the Word of God, if they ever really had it immediately after the Apostolic era, as they claim.

This corrupting of the Word of God with LXX alterations and bringing in the name of Allah into their Bible, is obviously why God made sure the Aramaic arrived in the West as late as World War I. We would hope that a rational student of the Word of God would see that God intends to keep the Peshitta and Aramaic of the present editions OUT of our consideration. This is why Erasmus and Luther had ONLY the Greek to work with. God WANTED it that way.

If some Mullah or Imam wants to show us the name of God in Aramaic, find us the original manuscript. Of course, that will be a translation from the Greek which Paul wrote and Jesus spoke. And, we don't want a Bible which a filthy Nestorian Bishop has handled with his pagan hands please.

<!-- sConfusedtupid: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/withstupid.gif" alt="Confusedtupid:" title="Stupid" /><!-- sConfusedtupid: -->
Shalom, Shlama, Salaam & Yiasou.
This short essay is the same as me saying:

"that the Peshitta was created by Aliens from the 5th dimension and that the Syrian polluted it, and that the KJV was made by aliens from the 3rd dimension who preserved it from the evil hands of those Nestorian Syrians."

The best thing you can do with such scholarship is to keep it for those days when you're down and need a good laugh to cheer yourself up.
This is hilarious! I love how the author has absolutely no understanding of Aramaic or knowledge of church history in the east. This made me literally laugh out loud at work, during my break.


-Nimrod Warda-
Shlomo okh Abudar & Nimrod Warda,

Your statement is so true, and may I add absolutely hilarious <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: --> That's why I posted that quote, for a laugh, though it does contain many of the most common misconceptions, which have been addressed numerous times on this forum.

On personal note, though I've been away for a while, I've missed all of you immensely. I promise that I'll be visiting more often from now on, now that I've finally found a job here in London (it's been a very stressful few weeks) I can concentrate on visiting all the different Aramaic churches. Okh Paul has given me the contact details for the CoE in Hanwell, which I will probably go see tomorrow. So okh Abudar, do you know where I can find the London Maronite community?

It's great to be back!
Shalom, Shlama, Salaam & Yiasou.
I like Akhan Nimrod just about fell out of my chair when reading this one!

I never entertained the thought that God allowed the Muslim armies to attack Constantinople BEFORE the Aramaic Bible was accepted by the Greek Church. Those Greek monks must've been awful close to declaring their support for Aramaic Primacy, and therefore God allowed Hagia Sophia to be turned into a mosque as punishment. That's too deep for my intellect. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

Man, have we missed your presence Christina, we can always count on you to brighten up our day with a chuckle no matter how much our 401K went down today!
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
Regrettably, I just went over to that site (aptly named "Balaams ASS") and I am now more convinced than ever that there should be a minimum age required for anyone who desires to register a domain name.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
shlom lekh khot Christina,

I've missed having you around, you always bring a fun level of energy to this forum. I'm also happy that your were able to find a job in London.

Here's the Parish that I was able to find:

6 Dobson Close,
Swiss Cottage, NW6 4RS
Tel: 020 7586 1801 Fax 020 7722 0436
<!-- e --><a href=""></a><!-- e -->

Lebanese Maronite Order (LMO)
Fr Augustine Aoun (Prior & Parish Priest);
Fr Joseph Abbaud

Services M (Maronite Rite), (Sat 7pm),
Sun 12.30, 7pm at Our Lady of Sorrows,
17 Cirencester Street, W2 5SR

Since their website is no longer coming up, I would call them ahead of time!
(Also their parish is rented out from the R.C. Church.)

push bashlomo,
Todda rabbah for the contacts okh Abudar, I will add them to my address book. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
Shalom, Shlama, Salaam & Yiasou.
What a pile of rubbish - i mean the commented article. You are laughing and this is probably a healthy approach to such but I am utterly amazed how stupid and convoluted conclusions can people draw and publish.
enarxe Wrote:What a pile of rubbish - i mean the commented article. You are laughing and this is probably a healthy approach to such but I am utterly amazed how stupid and convoluted conclusions can people draw and publish.

My wife has family in Tennessee, which is apparently where these people reside. I enjoy when the Christians there interject Old English ("this is likened unto...") in the presence of phrases like "This is an old saw....." and "The cute thing is that the Peshitta and Aramaic...." and "This is a real group of Jews", the linguist inside me cringes. (all of these phrases can be found in that article!)
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
Radical guy. <!-- sConfusedtupid: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/withstupid.gif" alt="Confusedtupid:" title="Stupid" /><!-- sConfusedtupid: --> Didn't he read the Tafsir of Saadia Gaon?

KJV is a book translated 400 yrs ago. The translators lacked resources(I mean Peshitta!) for their work.
Shlama Havah, nice to have another girl here on the forum <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

Excellent point regarding Saadia Gaon's Tafsir Tanakh btw.
Shalom, Shlama, Salaam & Yiasou.
Rafa Wrote:So what about that Akhi Paul? This guy is saying your a Greek that escaped Constantinople when Nestorius was "condemned" that fled to Persia where you made up a church that believed in "2 persons in Jesus Christ" !

Isn't that amazing? How is it that all these Constantinopilans fled into a different empire, learned a new language like Aramaic? They really left everything behind, including their language and wonderfully rich culture and traded for a new set....did they not? Wow, I don't know of another case like that in history, that was voluntary at least.

Rafa Wrote:So the COE traces itself to the council of Ephesus?

Sure, didn't you know that? The 3-4 Persian Synods held before Ephesus (like the synod held in Markabta of the Arabs, where the independence of the CoE was codified) was held by a non-existent Church. Makes a lot of sense.

Rafa Wrote:You know Akhi Paul, that business on "King Prestor John" at least one of my ancestors believed in while sailing in the caravels to the far East is probably more historical than what these guys are writing here. I mean please- God allowing Turks to attack Constantinople because "Greeks were reading Aramaic", saying a text with the scribal work of the Peshitta was written down by a Greek in his lunch break, "Alaha" being a pagan god, Yeshua/Jesus speaking Greek, .... <!-- s:crazy: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/crazy.gif" alt=":crazy:" title="Crazy" /><!-- s:crazy: -->

You know it's unfortunately a scary thing to most Western Christians (at least the American Evangelical variety) to even consider the fact that the Islamic-sounding "Alaha" is in their own Aramaic origin. Just as it is in every Muslim persons Aramaic origin. If they just were a bit more educated on the topic they could come to terms with the fact that there's nothing Islamic or Pagan about the term anymore than the Hebrew "Aleph-Lamed-Heh" or even the English "God."

Rafa Wrote:Just seeing this stuff makes me sad actually. I mean, No wonder many Jews and Muslims don't want to have anything to do with Christianity when these are the people claiming to be the "great" exponents of the faith.

I agree, and if you notice there isn't much interest in interaction with these types of Christians on the part of old, apostolic churches, either. OMG, could you imagine their faces if they were to sit and hear a typical Coptic or Maronite sermon in Arabic? "He said Allah!" OMG!!!

Rafa Wrote:At the end of the day though, Who do you think has a more refined, educated, historical approach to our religion:

But Akh, those pictures have turbans on them there. They's definitely Ay-rabs. Jeeeez-us warned us 'bout them. They aren't say-ved. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: --> (sorry couldn't resist, my Wife's from the South)

You know it's such an entrenched image here in my country, that of Evangelistic Protestantism, that I sometimes feel like an alien or something. I'm sure Roman Catholics and those of the various Greek and Orthodox Churches feel the same way here.

Imagine, we even have a different canon altogether. We really are sojourners here.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]

La, la, la! Remember that JEEZUS apparently settled it for us by calling God "Eli Eli". So God's name is actually "my God my God"??? How it doesn't occur to these self proclaimed "experts" that this makes absolutely no sense, not to mention contradicts the Tanakh (hello Elohim Himself said to Moses: "I am YHWH, that is My name") is beyond me.

LMAO <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/laugh.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laugh" /><!-- s:lol: -->
Shalom, Shlama, Salaam & Yiasou.
Rafa Wrote:"MarYah"... what is this?! This is the name of a pagan god a bunch of Hebrew pagan Arameans brought from Babylon. I mean what is "MarYah"? I never heard MarYah in my entire life. There is no MarYah in the bible. No, lets check the holy name of God in the bible, its not MarYah its...Kurios according to the "sacred" Greek. There you go you Assyrian ignoramus, no such thing as "MarYah".

I know, could you imagine if they could actually read the Hebrew of Exodus 3:16 (including the Aramaic Targum)

O MY GOSH, it's got "Alaha" in both the Hebrew and Aramaic! And what's with that YWY thing in the Aramaic Targum standing in the place of the Hebrew YHWH ?

Maybe Moses was a Muslim after all, or at least a Greek who fled to Babylon from Constantinople after being kicked out for his Nestorian sympathies.

Attached Files
.jpg   exodus316.JPG (Size: 54.97 KB / Downloads: 1,922)
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]

Forum Jump:

Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)