09-23-2008, 04:23 AM
Shlama dear akhi Albion,
Thank you incredibly much for your sincere and considerate response to what I posted. Frankly, I???ve been expecting hell to pay for what I shared. And what I have shared is by the way not agreed upon by many, if not most, Nazarenes either. Like you, I???ve given the STATE of Israel much, much thought. I never used to question the concept; not one, single, iota. I didn???t dare. It seems that anyone who even shares a wiff of a second opinion on it, is automatically deemed ???anti-semitic???. Which is a crock of you-know-what! The very Jewish Yeshua and His followers admonished us to test ALL things; not just the ones that don???t include second-guessing what we???ve been spoon-fed for years on end, about a Jewish State.
Now, my personal wonderings began as more or less profound philosophical concepts creeping up on me. The notion was too absurd for me to second-guess. I tried to open up a very small discussion on the issue with a fellow Nazarene one night, and I got the same type of treatment that you have gotten from certain Christian churches for simply being you! That is HOW sensitive this thing really is. And unfortunately, most people who seem to take alternative views on this issue, do seem to be anti-semitic, at least in the sense of anti-Jewish. See, the paradox here, is that to even say ???anti-Semitic???, is to automatically include all SEMITES, which include the Arab people! Ironic, don???t you think? I guess a better term could have been arrived at, but at least everyone knows what is being meant.
A really good question to start with might be, to ask WHY so many people would be ???anti-semitic???, all throughout history, into our day today. The answer is not always so pretty for the Semitic-side of the equation either, you know. Yes, people will be ???racist??? (hey ??? I thought we were all one race ??? the Human Race!) as well, for NO apparent good reason, as I???ve experienced personally; but I also have discovered from a socio-anthropological survey of history that often times when entire groups of people are despised by other entire groups, it does involve VALID reasons ??? though not always, so don???t take me wrong.
There is an incredible amount of prejudice to be found in the Jewish Talmud, if one reads and understands it. You, for instance, my dear brother, are included in there under the moniker ???Minim???, amongst other masking terms. Remember, it wasn???t Rome nor the Syrians who prompted the Christ to be crucified; it was His own people. I personally cannot tolerate prejudice of ANY kind, whether it???s anti-Semitic, anti-African, anti-Asian, anti-Caucasian, or for that matter, shall we try to describe Jewish chauvinism as ???Semitism??? or with some such term? Yes, I???m looking at the WHOLE picture here, and excusing NO ONE for their sinfulness. In fact, reading Scripture???s rebukes reveals a telltale pattern: God is most concerned with the behavior of HIS people; He already knows that the lawless are naturally going to behave as without law! But He has given His People HIS Law ??? the Torah ??? and they unanimously shouted ???AMEN??? towards the Mountain top at Sinai where He gave them His Law.
Truly, this earth is bleeding the way it is, because of the rebellion of the People of God, against their God! He purposely set up His People/Nation Yisrael to be a Kingdom of Priests, so that by its holiness, it would stand out amongst all the nations of the earth, and by its Light, attract the filthy and lawless goyim (Heb. for ???gentiles??? / ???nations???) about the same way that a bug zapper at night attracts all the bugs. THIS is the original and beautiful Blueprint Design as masterfully crafted by the Master Architect, and implemented through His Set-Apart (lit. for ???holy???) People: 12 Tribes, which derived from 12 sons of one man, Jacob, whom God Himself named Israel. Whoever would call themselves Israel, should look like their ancestor that they invoke. And Israel truly did know God.
Of course, as you shall soon see, once MARI is released, our scholar Andrew will have lain out clearly, this perpetual Covenant concept from Mt. Sinai, through Abraham, through Shem, through Noah, through Adam, as seen through the 1st Century Nazarene Writings of Jewish Apostles, how exactly the Culmination Himself, Yeshua, came to the Prodigal Son (the 10 divorced Tribes of Israel) to call them Home (draw to Himself), and reinstitute their ability to officially become part of the Kingdom again, by offering the Divine requirement for this Divine mutual Covenant: Himself ??? so that they could be grafted back in. See, Yeshua was raised up upon a piece of wood for a reason; remember Ezekiel???s ???two sticks??? in the one Hand of God? Well, as no longer part of the Kingdom of Israel, the divorced and earth-scattered 10 Tribes, now swallowed up by the nations and themselves becoming and looking like gentiles (all in the same word, ???goyim???), those 10 Tribes (House of Ephraim/Joseph/Israel) now needed a new representative, metaphorical, ???stick??? by which to be represented by. It is no prophetic mistake or coincidence that Yeshua was nailed to a ???tree???. He was literarily-metaphorically (symbolically) crucified upon the rebellious Northern Kingdom of Israel itself: ???Ephraim??? (used as a brief collective descriptor).
???All of Israel??? shall be saved ??? the ???Whole House???/all 12 Tribes shall be saved.
Also, as I mentioned previously, by definition, one must meet the requirements of being called an ???Israelite??? to in fact be considered an Israelite.
An unbelieving Jewish person is, technically, not an Israelite, since they are not a believer. Being born from the blood of Avraham saves no man. Yeshua rebuked the Pharisees for this chauvinistic error. Yet indeed, a Jewish person who does believe, is most certainly an Israelite, because they believe; and it is of benefit to them as Sha???ul stated, because to them ??? to the Judahite Tribes (Judah, Benjamin, Levi) ??? were entrusted the Oracles of God. What is meant by this, is this:
When the rest of the Tribes of corporate Israel befouled themselves, YHWH ???set-apart??? these filthy rebels to the North. He kept corralled to Himself in the South of the Land, near Jerusalem the place of the Temple, His faithful ones (the Judahites, Benjamites, Levites) who remained ???set-apart???/holy unto Him. This is WHY the Kingdom (singular) was divided. To separate His blemished sheep away from the rest of the Flock, without destroying them (for His Name???s sake).
Eventually, the Northern Kingdom got so bad, that He finally divorced them altogether, and expelled them from the Land. What was left, was ???the Remnant??? of Israel ??? the Southern Kingdom ??? the Levites, Benjamites, and Judahites, the Judahites under whom the others were corporately categorized, and thence later on came to be referred in short to as, the ???Jews???. Of course, what cannot be forgotten is that this whole picture is not so black-and-white, which actually is an effective remedy to such things as British Israelism, or for that matter, Jews-only-ism. Intertribal marriages, and defections of certain tribal members to others for reasons especially related to Covenant-faithfulness. You had a lot of Reuben down there with Judah, in other words. And aside from this, since YHWH???s Plan was for the Kingdom of Israel Herself to be a Light to all the world, meaning that those from the nations who wanted to attach themselves to Israel and renounce their sinful lifestyles, did so. They chose a Tribe (and therefore geographic locale) to proselyte themselves to, wherein through sojourner-ship as a ???ger??? (proselyte/sojourner), they entered the Grace of learning the Torah Covenantal terms of living the holy life that made them a set-apart People; a Kingdom of Priests to YHWH, God above all national gods. Therein, you could technically find Egyptian and Canaanite blood, but just as in Ireland, once you???re a citizen, you???re REALLY a citizen! And that???s why they were continued to be called ???Hebrews??? ??? the ones-who???ve-crossed-over ??? even though technically not every single member of the community blood-derived from Aramea.
Anyway, as I said, the Northern 10 Tribes were divorced, leaving ???the Jews??? as now the total summation of ???Israel???. They were all that was left. They were entrusted the Oracles of YHWH, the prophets of YHWH, the priests of YHWH, and the curatorship of the Temple. Everything, in other words, was now theirs. The Jews have never been divorced from YHWH, which makes being born a Jew somewhat a momentous thing. However, it is also a dangerous thing. See, soon enough after Ephraim???s divorce, Judah???s sins not only increased to high hell (not that she was perfect to begin with!), but actually superseded Ephraim???s! What a dilemma on God???s hands! Yet, for the sake of His Holy Name (alone), He did not and has not ever divorced her. So you see, dear brother Albion, I am no replacement theologian, nor a dispensationalist. And certainly not racist; the most beautiful believer I???ve had the privilege of knowing, is our very-Jewish brother Andrew, who just so happened to key me in onto what Scripture REALLY teaches about the ???church??? and Scriptural continuity, from which I derive my conclusions (but not to say that he necessarily agrees with everything I might say here).
So, in relation to the modern state of ???Israel???, I have picked up on the trail of my original philosophical suspicions, and simply followed the evidence, to wherever it decided to lead me. It isn???t pretty, brother! To clarify, by ???suspicions??? I???m talking about lining up what I see God describing in His Scripture about what Yisrael should look like, and how this current state looks like. I???ve pondered the prophecies, and inevitably found it kind of difficult ??? on a, shall we say, subjective, philosophical level ??? to believe that the same God of Scripture would fulfill His own prophecies of old, in our current day, in a method that has resulted in what we can currently see going on over in that State this very day. Not only that, but one of the biggest problems, has to do with geography. See, the BIBLICAL borders of Israel are NOT what we have today. One may think that the Gaza Strip is a big deal ???.. well, they need to confer a biblical atlas! Reread the Torah, and learn of ITS boundaries. And aside from that, how could a godless people who still has not repented (I love your 20% example!) hear the whistle of God to return? And that doesn???t even factor in the element to prophecy of THE OTHER part of Israel ??? the non-Jewish Tribes who Yeshua died on the Stake/Stick for, in order to fulfill the Divine???s Own demand (as laid out quite superbly by Christina in another thread) for remarriage to His Bride that He had already divorced (Torah forbids this)!
So, granting that the Jews that we consider to be Jews today, are in fact true Jews by blood (which some scholars claim to contest), that still does not give them YHWH???s right to FORCIBLY take back their Land, unless YHWH is leading them! And just about every evangelical and otherwise believing institution on planet earth would have us all immediately believe that 1948 and even 1967 are Scripture-pegged PROOFS of God???s Divine Intervention. Yet, once the evidence is thoroughly conferred, the conclusion actually begs to differ ??? both on the more theo-philosophical level, as well as on the empirical level. Without leaving you hanging out to dry here, I think I know the perfect place for consideration on this topic; one that actually manages to avoid sincere anti-semitism (which I also care to avoid):
Let???s say you were introduced to a man, a believer, a real hard worker, who???s always and still does love his Jewish brethren from the bottom of his heart, but had an unction, perhaps similar to my own, that ???something??? wasn???t right about current ???Israel???. Let???s also say that this man just so happened to be the very reason that our nation, the United States of America, now has the National Day of Prayer. Let???s say that he was even invited by the President of the United States himself to attend the inauguration of this new National Day of Prayer, for his acknowledgment to being the reason for this new institution (of which I???ve participated in college gatherings around the flag pole in years past), along with a handshake and all. A true believer, not a squib, whose devotion to Christ has been for real, and his love unbiased. Would you consider such a man trustworthy enough to hear him out, with video documentary footage and written documentation alike, covering this issue at the very risk of his life ??? and from a non-Nazarene approach to-boot?
If so, then I am more than willing to share with you this real-life man???s name, his works ???.. and if they???re thought-provoking enough for you, an entire grocery list of scholarly works and abundant documentation revealing the true story behind the formation of the current ???State of Israel???, in light of its prophetic claims. I feel a certain risk myself just bringing up the issue, but it???s for real. The evidence is real, and not something I???m pulling out of a hat. Nevertheless, the most important fundamental aspect to all of current political analysis, sociological interpretation, and ethnic as well as ethical consideration, is that the Scriptures of YHWH God of the One Bride Israel, be not abandoned at any moment when allowing [y]our own prejudices, and especially presuppositions, to be gently challenged, by dissenting voices. I know you know what I mean. Alas, how many things have you (we) come to learn already, that were not at first what they appeared to be? Something profound to think about right there!
Otherwise, dear akhi, allow me to expose some prophetic truths that you already do discern:
And remember, one has to by definition look like and actually be an Israelite, which is through faith alone, in order to be one, and thereby in order to be saved. In that sense, the Scripture is almost redundant (all of Israel [they who trust in YHWH] will be saved). That brings up Sha???ul???s point that a true Jew, is one spiritually. Being of the blood of Avraham, and in lineage from the smoking mountain top of Sinai, is not good enough. More than half of Israel alone was divorced, remember, for her flagrant disbelief! The warning is severe indeed!
Amein! Just remember your statement above this one, when I wish you to consider this next statement:
And it certainly doesn???t surprise me. Just about everyone does strongly disagree with this conclusion. But it is not really my conclusion; it is the conclusion I???ve come to share with a small populace of unpopular investigators of hard evidence, tracing the Zionist movement back to its roots, the U.N. back to its roots, the American involvement back to its roots, the British involvement back to its roots, and plumbing family lines of financiers and political movers behind these operations. If one were to contend that the 6-Day War were a miracle, I???d ask you to remember first whose toys Israel uses (ours), and what date the American public were privied to the reality of the SR-71???s existence. You remember our mutual agreement that nothing that sensitive is disclosed to the public until roughly 20-30 years or more after its operationality? And how long in development the technology was to begin with? And WHY the public is finally made awares? Because, of course, that cutting technology has become obsolete, and something magnificently more potent is in current operation. It takes years for ???lucky??? investigators to gain access to enough tidbits to even produce low-budget documentaries on, with merely speculative conclusions.
Yet, line up what evidence there is, for whatever it is being evaluated, alongside Scripture, and watch very carefully what is drawn out of Scripture concerning the issue. Perhaps something. Perhaps something obscure. But it???s never nothing. Either that, or we???re not listening long enough. If we want to know how prophecy should look when in the midst of it, then we???re going to have to comb Scripture until we can recite It. And on the side, we need to be careful students of current events and socio-political trends. Moses was lined up as vice-regent to Egypt in his day. Daniel excelled in the very courts of Babylon. Thus saith YHWH: ???My People perish for lack of knowledge/understanding.??? Remember? What history forgets, gets repeated. So I give you your space to disagree, if you wouldn???t mind giving me the space to take another look?
Probably; unfortunately. But I also see it as the time of purgation. A Bride being made spotless and without wrinkle. No other gods to cling to, including the mirages of atheism, agnosticism, gnosticism, humanism, and philosophy. A Bride, not a Whore, any longer.
Your reading may be very close, depending on who you ask. But for starters, I???d insert ???Israelites??? where you have ???Israelis???.
For the sake of His Holy Name, as He gave His Word to the patriarchs, and the Word of God never returns void. Even if in His anger He has to instigate Moses to intercede and ???sooth the Face of YHWH??? as Scripture puts it, to abate or avert His wrath. And again earlier with Avram, when He visited before destroying Sodom and Amorra. He is a faithful God, even when ALL of His People are not.
Again, YHWH of course never breaks covenant; His People have. And since He never breaks covenant, betraying His own Word, dispensationalism is meaningless. And ???Jacob???s Trouble??? is for the People Jacob (Israel) ??? NOT for any institution that has supposedly replaced her. And certainly not for an antichrist???s duped worldly people who already follow blindly after him, so he can wreak havoc on them. That is non-sensical, as you already perceive.
I???d simply suggest that you stick with ???Israelite??? as in ???Israel???, rather than ???Israeli??? as in the current secular nation. And as to this current secular nation???s existence as being ???PROOF that God loves the Jewish people, and has a special plan for them???, for now I???ll tell you that I kindly disagree that it???s existence is proof of anything other than unrepentant greed and a militarized politik ??? even potentially a prophetic fulfillment of other overlooked [negative] prophecy; but don???t quote me on that until I can further investigate the notion, which will take me time. But I do not disagree with you that God loves the Jewish people and has a special plan for them, ???for while we were yet sinners, Messiah died for us???, and most fervently I delight in the concept of having 10,000 true believers resting the soles of their feet on part of the Holy Land!
I have pictures of Almond trees blossoming from Samuel???s Mountain. I???ve been prayed over by an IDF Border Guard, and I swore the room that I and my group were standing in receiving this Messianic Jew???s blessing almost shook. The air was absolutely electric! Something certainly IS going on in the Holy Land today, and it???s not ALL satan. But I feel that most of us have swallowed a little too much misunderstanding today as well. I seek to sift the grains of Truth from a world of lies, not rift the foundations of the Bride, ???tis all.
And I want to thank you for being so cordial, warm, and level-headed about this whole issue, and especially with me. As I somewhat portended, I figured it might have gotten some fireworks flying. So far, so good. And I certainly wouldn???t myself want to create a rift in our friendship. Agreeing to disagree on things can sometimes only be the remedy, I understand. Just remember, though, I did mention I have a grocery list of some things that you and most folks seem to have not been exposed to. I for one, know that I have MUCH to learn from you, and that can only mean for myself that I have potential reformations of my current belief system to encounter. I can only humbly request the same space on your end, when we meet these divides in the midst of the road on our same journey to God. I take no offense that you think I am very wrong. I can completely understand, in fact, because I???ve been in your shoes. I wasn???t born believing this. I???ve simply been confronted with some things, and it???s honestly been some tough decision-making to do. Imagine having like half your belief system crumble underfoot in one day! I wasn???t happy, and it took me a lot more than one day! I really do think that having the proper foundation is the most essential thing of all, however. So I???m not going to be pushy on this subject at all. It???s not going to get one into, nor keep one out of, Heaven.
Personally, I don???t think even Andrew views the state of Israel the way I???m suggesting. I think it best that we both receive MARI, and get more grounded in the Brit Chadasha (NT) from a Jewish translator???s rendition of the 1st Century???s Apostolic recordings of our mutually Jewish King. We all have our expertises, and I figure that in all of Andrew???s pouring of heart into MARI to bring ???peace??? to all believing brethren, he hasn???t had the time to scour less fundamental and tricky issues as I have been able to do, while waiting for P.E.A.C.E. So the ball is in your court, really, I guess. I know you have a lot on your plate already. Perhaps this whole thing just needs to get sidelined for the time being? I personally wasn???t ready to attack it, nor to accept certain conclusions from it, until I was much more grounded in the Scriptures, namely, Israelology. Then again, all of my sources have been outside of the Nazarene fold, and not all of them have been fanatical kooks.
I hope that I???ve been as kind-natured towards you as you have been towards me, Albion. I am thankful that I didn???t piss you off, honestly. I know how passionate you are, for our Jewish brethren. You really have commanded my respect in the tone of your response. This is also why I???ve devoted so much time to responding to it, hopefully in enough detail to get my general point across, without getting too specific. I don???t want to unravel everything all at once, as this is unwise in general, and frankly, an impossible burden on both of us. I just thank you for your understanding, and couldn???t ask for more!
The Jewish Messiah, Yeshua!
Cordially yours, your Brother in Messiah Yeshua,
~Ryan
Thank you incredibly much for your sincere and considerate response to what I posted. Frankly, I???ve been expecting hell to pay for what I shared. And what I have shared is by the way not agreed upon by many, if not most, Nazarenes either. Like you, I???ve given the STATE of Israel much, much thought. I never used to question the concept; not one, single, iota. I didn???t dare. It seems that anyone who even shares a wiff of a second opinion on it, is automatically deemed ???anti-semitic???. Which is a crock of you-know-what! The very Jewish Yeshua and His followers admonished us to test ALL things; not just the ones that don???t include second-guessing what we???ve been spoon-fed for years on end, about a Jewish State.
Now, my personal wonderings began as more or less profound philosophical concepts creeping up on me. The notion was too absurd for me to second-guess. I tried to open up a very small discussion on the issue with a fellow Nazarene one night, and I got the same type of treatment that you have gotten from certain Christian churches for simply being you! That is HOW sensitive this thing really is. And unfortunately, most people who seem to take alternative views on this issue, do seem to be anti-semitic, at least in the sense of anti-Jewish. See, the paradox here, is that to even say ???anti-Semitic???, is to automatically include all SEMITES, which include the Arab people! Ironic, don???t you think? I guess a better term could have been arrived at, but at least everyone knows what is being meant.
A really good question to start with might be, to ask WHY so many people would be ???anti-semitic???, all throughout history, into our day today. The answer is not always so pretty for the Semitic-side of the equation either, you know. Yes, people will be ???racist??? (hey ??? I thought we were all one race ??? the Human Race!) as well, for NO apparent good reason, as I???ve experienced personally; but I also have discovered from a socio-anthropological survey of history that often times when entire groups of people are despised by other entire groups, it does involve VALID reasons ??? though not always, so don???t take me wrong.
There is an incredible amount of prejudice to be found in the Jewish Talmud, if one reads and understands it. You, for instance, my dear brother, are included in there under the moniker ???Minim???, amongst other masking terms. Remember, it wasn???t Rome nor the Syrians who prompted the Christ to be crucified; it was His own people. I personally cannot tolerate prejudice of ANY kind, whether it???s anti-Semitic, anti-African, anti-Asian, anti-Caucasian, or for that matter, shall we try to describe Jewish chauvinism as ???Semitism??? or with some such term? Yes, I???m looking at the WHOLE picture here, and excusing NO ONE for their sinfulness. In fact, reading Scripture???s rebukes reveals a telltale pattern: God is most concerned with the behavior of HIS people; He already knows that the lawless are naturally going to behave as without law! But He has given His People HIS Law ??? the Torah ??? and they unanimously shouted ???AMEN??? towards the Mountain top at Sinai where He gave them His Law.
Truly, this earth is bleeding the way it is, because of the rebellion of the People of God, against their God! He purposely set up His People/Nation Yisrael to be a Kingdom of Priests, so that by its holiness, it would stand out amongst all the nations of the earth, and by its Light, attract the filthy and lawless goyim (Heb. for ???gentiles??? / ???nations???) about the same way that a bug zapper at night attracts all the bugs. THIS is the original and beautiful Blueprint Design as masterfully crafted by the Master Architect, and implemented through His Set-Apart (lit. for ???holy???) People: 12 Tribes, which derived from 12 sons of one man, Jacob, whom God Himself named Israel. Whoever would call themselves Israel, should look like their ancestor that they invoke. And Israel truly did know God.
Of course, as you shall soon see, once MARI is released, our scholar Andrew will have lain out clearly, this perpetual Covenant concept from Mt. Sinai, through Abraham, through Shem, through Noah, through Adam, as seen through the 1st Century Nazarene Writings of Jewish Apostles, how exactly the Culmination Himself, Yeshua, came to the Prodigal Son (the 10 divorced Tribes of Israel) to call them Home (draw to Himself), and reinstitute their ability to officially become part of the Kingdom again, by offering the Divine requirement for this Divine mutual Covenant: Himself ??? so that they could be grafted back in. See, Yeshua was raised up upon a piece of wood for a reason; remember Ezekiel???s ???two sticks??? in the one Hand of God? Well, as no longer part of the Kingdom of Israel, the divorced and earth-scattered 10 Tribes, now swallowed up by the nations and themselves becoming and looking like gentiles (all in the same word, ???goyim???), those 10 Tribes (House of Ephraim/Joseph/Israel) now needed a new representative, metaphorical, ???stick??? by which to be represented by. It is no prophetic mistake or coincidence that Yeshua was nailed to a ???tree???. He was literarily-metaphorically (symbolically) crucified upon the rebellious Northern Kingdom of Israel itself: ???Ephraim??? (used as a brief collective descriptor).
???All of Israel??? shall be saved ??? the ???Whole House???/all 12 Tribes shall be saved.
Also, as I mentioned previously, by definition, one must meet the requirements of being called an ???Israelite??? to in fact be considered an Israelite.
An unbelieving Jewish person is, technically, not an Israelite, since they are not a believer. Being born from the blood of Avraham saves no man. Yeshua rebuked the Pharisees for this chauvinistic error. Yet indeed, a Jewish person who does believe, is most certainly an Israelite, because they believe; and it is of benefit to them as Sha???ul stated, because to them ??? to the Judahite Tribes (Judah, Benjamin, Levi) ??? were entrusted the Oracles of God. What is meant by this, is this:
When the rest of the Tribes of corporate Israel befouled themselves, YHWH ???set-apart??? these filthy rebels to the North. He kept corralled to Himself in the South of the Land, near Jerusalem the place of the Temple, His faithful ones (the Judahites, Benjamites, Levites) who remained ???set-apart???/holy unto Him. This is WHY the Kingdom (singular) was divided. To separate His blemished sheep away from the rest of the Flock, without destroying them (for His Name???s sake).
Eventually, the Northern Kingdom got so bad, that He finally divorced them altogether, and expelled them from the Land. What was left, was ???the Remnant??? of Israel ??? the Southern Kingdom ??? the Levites, Benjamites, and Judahites, the Judahites under whom the others were corporately categorized, and thence later on came to be referred in short to as, the ???Jews???. Of course, what cannot be forgotten is that this whole picture is not so black-and-white, which actually is an effective remedy to such things as British Israelism, or for that matter, Jews-only-ism. Intertribal marriages, and defections of certain tribal members to others for reasons especially related to Covenant-faithfulness. You had a lot of Reuben down there with Judah, in other words. And aside from this, since YHWH???s Plan was for the Kingdom of Israel Herself to be a Light to all the world, meaning that those from the nations who wanted to attach themselves to Israel and renounce their sinful lifestyles, did so. They chose a Tribe (and therefore geographic locale) to proselyte themselves to, wherein through sojourner-ship as a ???ger??? (proselyte/sojourner), they entered the Grace of learning the Torah Covenantal terms of living the holy life that made them a set-apart People; a Kingdom of Priests to YHWH, God above all national gods. Therein, you could technically find Egyptian and Canaanite blood, but just as in Ireland, once you???re a citizen, you???re REALLY a citizen! And that???s why they were continued to be called ???Hebrews??? ??? the ones-who???ve-crossed-over ??? even though technically not every single member of the community blood-derived from Aramea.
Anyway, as I said, the Northern 10 Tribes were divorced, leaving ???the Jews??? as now the total summation of ???Israel???. They were all that was left. They were entrusted the Oracles of YHWH, the prophets of YHWH, the priests of YHWH, and the curatorship of the Temple. Everything, in other words, was now theirs. The Jews have never been divorced from YHWH, which makes being born a Jew somewhat a momentous thing. However, it is also a dangerous thing. See, soon enough after Ephraim???s divorce, Judah???s sins not only increased to high hell (not that she was perfect to begin with!), but actually superseded Ephraim???s! What a dilemma on God???s hands! Yet, for the sake of His Holy Name (alone), He did not and has not ever divorced her. So you see, dear brother Albion, I am no replacement theologian, nor a dispensationalist. And certainly not racist; the most beautiful believer I???ve had the privilege of knowing, is our very-Jewish brother Andrew, who just so happened to key me in onto what Scripture REALLY teaches about the ???church??? and Scriptural continuity, from which I derive my conclusions (but not to say that he necessarily agrees with everything I might say here).
So, in relation to the modern state of ???Israel???, I have picked up on the trail of my original philosophical suspicions, and simply followed the evidence, to wherever it decided to lead me. It isn???t pretty, brother! To clarify, by ???suspicions??? I???m talking about lining up what I see God describing in His Scripture about what Yisrael should look like, and how this current state looks like. I???ve pondered the prophecies, and inevitably found it kind of difficult ??? on a, shall we say, subjective, philosophical level ??? to believe that the same God of Scripture would fulfill His own prophecies of old, in our current day, in a method that has resulted in what we can currently see going on over in that State this very day. Not only that, but one of the biggest problems, has to do with geography. See, the BIBLICAL borders of Israel are NOT what we have today. One may think that the Gaza Strip is a big deal ???.. well, they need to confer a biblical atlas! Reread the Torah, and learn of ITS boundaries. And aside from that, how could a godless people who still has not repented (I love your 20% example!) hear the whistle of God to return? And that doesn???t even factor in the element to prophecy of THE OTHER part of Israel ??? the non-Jewish Tribes who Yeshua died on the Stake/Stick for, in order to fulfill the Divine???s Own demand (as laid out quite superbly by Christina in another thread) for remarriage to His Bride that He had already divorced (Torah forbids this)!
So, granting that the Jews that we consider to be Jews today, are in fact true Jews by blood (which some scholars claim to contest), that still does not give them YHWH???s right to FORCIBLY take back their Land, unless YHWH is leading them! And just about every evangelical and otherwise believing institution on planet earth would have us all immediately believe that 1948 and even 1967 are Scripture-pegged PROOFS of God???s Divine Intervention. Yet, once the evidence is thoroughly conferred, the conclusion actually begs to differ ??? both on the more theo-philosophical level, as well as on the empirical level. Without leaving you hanging out to dry here, I think I know the perfect place for consideration on this topic; one that actually manages to avoid sincere anti-semitism (which I also care to avoid):
Let???s say you were introduced to a man, a believer, a real hard worker, who???s always and still does love his Jewish brethren from the bottom of his heart, but had an unction, perhaps similar to my own, that ???something??? wasn???t right about current ???Israel???. Let???s also say that this man just so happened to be the very reason that our nation, the United States of America, now has the National Day of Prayer. Let???s say that he was even invited by the President of the United States himself to attend the inauguration of this new National Day of Prayer, for his acknowledgment to being the reason for this new institution (of which I???ve participated in college gatherings around the flag pole in years past), along with a handshake and all. A true believer, not a squib, whose devotion to Christ has been for real, and his love unbiased. Would you consider such a man trustworthy enough to hear him out, with video documentary footage and written documentation alike, covering this issue at the very risk of his life ??? and from a non-Nazarene approach to-boot?
If so, then I am more than willing to share with you this real-life man???s name, his works ???.. and if they???re thought-provoking enough for you, an entire grocery list of scholarly works and abundant documentation revealing the true story behind the formation of the current ???State of Israel???, in light of its prophetic claims. I feel a certain risk myself just bringing up the issue, but it???s for real. The evidence is real, and not something I???m pulling out of a hat. Nevertheless, the most important fundamental aspect to all of current political analysis, sociological interpretation, and ethnic as well as ethical consideration, is that the Scriptures of YHWH God of the One Bride Israel, be not abandoned at any moment when allowing [y]our own prejudices, and especially presuppositions, to be gently challenged, by dissenting voices. I know you know what I mean. Alas, how many things have you (we) come to learn already, that were not at first what they appeared to be? Something profound to think about right there!
Otherwise, dear akhi, allow me to expose some prophetic truths that you already do discern:
Quote:The thing that I have seen from this congregation is the only way out of this horrid situation is for both sides to accept Yeshua as Messiah. Then Arabs and Jews can worship together and love each other as brothers. This is the ONLY way out of this mess.
Quote:In my opinion, the Remnant of Israel that is left at this time [Jacob???s trouble] will be the fulfillment of Paul???s writing, and then all of Israel will be saved. I think that there???s a chance that this Remnant will be a very small number, but nevertheless, it will equate to ???ALL of Israel will be saved.???
And remember, one has to by definition look like and actually be an Israelite, which is through faith alone, in order to be one, and thereby in order to be saved. In that sense, the Scripture is almost redundant (all of Israel [they who trust in YHWH] will be saved). That brings up Sha???ul???s point that a true Jew, is one spiritually. Being of the blood of Avraham, and in lineage from the smoking mountain top of Sinai, is not good enough. More than half of Israel alone was divorced, remember, for her flagrant disbelief! The warning is severe indeed!
Quote:The political situation in modern Israel is very, very complex.
Quote:But then if you look at what Paul says, ???has God rejected his people,??? and then he affirms the verse with ???Let it not be so!,??? this plainly says to me that God is still in covenant with His people, Israel.
Amein! Just remember your statement above this one, when I wish you to consider this next statement:
Quote:You seem to think, if I understand you correctly, that the modern nation of Israel is not of God???s doing. I would have to strongly disagree with you about this conclusion.
And it certainly doesn???t surprise me. Just about everyone does strongly disagree with this conclusion. But it is not really my conclusion; it is the conclusion I???ve come to share with a small populace of unpopular investigators of hard evidence, tracing the Zionist movement back to its roots, the U.N. back to its roots, the American involvement back to its roots, the British involvement back to its roots, and plumbing family lines of financiers and political movers behind these operations. If one were to contend that the 6-Day War were a miracle, I???d ask you to remember first whose toys Israel uses (ours), and what date the American public were privied to the reality of the SR-71???s existence. You remember our mutual agreement that nothing that sensitive is disclosed to the public until roughly 20-30 years or more after its operationality? And how long in development the technology was to begin with? And WHY the public is finally made awares? Because, of course, that cutting technology has become obsolete, and something magnificently more potent is in current operation. It takes years for ???lucky??? investigators to gain access to enough tidbits to even produce low-budget documentaries on, with merely speculative conclusions.
Yet, line up what evidence there is, for whatever it is being evaluated, alongside Scripture, and watch very carefully what is drawn out of Scripture concerning the issue. Perhaps something. Perhaps something obscure. But it???s never nothing. Either that, or we???re not listening long enough. If we want to know how prophecy should look when in the midst of it, then we???re going to have to comb Scripture until we can recite It. And on the side, we need to be careful students of current events and socio-political trends. Moses was lined up as vice-regent to Egypt in his day. Daniel excelled in the very courts of Babylon. Thus saith YHWH: ???My People perish for lack of knowledge/understanding.??? Remember? What history forgets, gets repeated. So I give you your space to disagree, if you wouldn???t mind giving me the space to take another look?
Quote:I honestly think that it will take the time of Jacob???s Troubles to come upon them, for true spiritual understanding to arise.
Probably; unfortunately. But I also see it as the time of purgation. A Bride being made spotless and without wrinkle. No other gods to cling to, including the mirages of atheism, agnosticism, gnosticism, humanism, and philosophy. A Bride, not a Whore, any longer.
Quote:I think that it???s likely that thousands of Israelis may die during this time. I hope that this doesn???t happen, but the prophetic writings seem to indicate that this is what???s going to happen. Or so I read in the Scriptures.
Your reading may be very close, depending on who you ask. But for starters, I???d insert ???Israelites??? where you have ???Israelis???.
Quote:But until then, in spite of Israel???s spiritual stubbornness, their lack of belief, and their complete secular-ness, that they are still beloved as Paul said for the sake of the patriarchs.
For the sake of His Holy Name, as He gave His Word to the patriarchs, and the Word of God never returns void. Even if in His anger He has to instigate Moses to intercede and ???sooth the Face of YHWH??? as Scripture puts it, to abate or avert His wrath. And again earlier with Avram, when He visited before destroying Sodom and Amorra. He is a faithful God, even when ALL of His People are not.
Quote:I don???t believe that God has broken covenant with the Israeli people and I think the fact that modern Israel exists at all is PROOF that God loves the Jewish people, and has a special plan for them.
Again, YHWH of course never breaks covenant; His People have. And since He never breaks covenant, betraying His own Word, dispensationalism is meaningless. And ???Jacob???s Trouble??? is for the People Jacob (Israel) ??? NOT for any institution that has supposedly replaced her. And certainly not for an antichrist???s duped worldly people who already follow blindly after him, so he can wreak havoc on them. That is non-sensical, as you already perceive.
I???d simply suggest that you stick with ???Israelite??? as in ???Israel???, rather than ???Israeli??? as in the current secular nation. And as to this current secular nation???s existence as being ???PROOF that God loves the Jewish people, and has a special plan for them???, for now I???ll tell you that I kindly disagree that it???s existence is proof of anything other than unrepentant greed and a militarized politik ??? even potentially a prophetic fulfillment of other overlooked [negative] prophecy; but don???t quote me on that until I can further investigate the notion, which will take me time. But I do not disagree with you that God loves the Jewish people and has a special plan for them, ???for while we were yet sinners, Messiah died for us???, and most fervently I delight in the concept of having 10,000 true believers resting the soles of their feet on part of the Holy Land!
Quote:I think the fact that the desert has bloomed, and the modern nation of Israel supplies most of Europe with fruit and flowers, says that a miracle occurred with this nation. No one but God can create such miracles. Yes, satan can counterfeit some miracles, but I do not believe that this is the hand of satan, but is the arm of the Most High.
I have pictures of Almond trees blossoming from Samuel???s Mountain. I???ve been prayed over by an IDF Border Guard, and I swore the room that I and my group were standing in receiving this Messianic Jew???s blessing almost shook. The air was absolutely electric! Something certainly IS going on in the Holy Land today, and it???s not ALL satan. But I feel that most of us have swallowed a little too much misunderstanding today as well. I seek to sift the grains of Truth from a world of lies, not rift the foundations of the Bride, ???tis all.
Quote:I want you to understand that we can agree to disagree and still be agreeable, that you are my brother in spite of anything that we disagree on, but having said this, I think that you are very wrong about the modern state of Israel, and God???s relationship with it.
And I want to thank you for being so cordial, warm, and level-headed about this whole issue, and especially with me. As I somewhat portended, I figured it might have gotten some fireworks flying. So far, so good. And I certainly wouldn???t myself want to create a rift in our friendship. Agreeing to disagree on things can sometimes only be the remedy, I understand. Just remember, though, I did mention I have a grocery list of some things that you and most folks seem to have not been exposed to. I for one, know that I have MUCH to learn from you, and that can only mean for myself that I have potential reformations of my current belief system to encounter. I can only humbly request the same space on your end, when we meet these divides in the midst of the road on our same journey to God. I take no offense that you think I am very wrong. I can completely understand, in fact, because I???ve been in your shoes. I wasn???t born believing this. I???ve simply been confronted with some things, and it???s honestly been some tough decision-making to do. Imagine having like half your belief system crumble underfoot in one day! I wasn???t happy, and it took me a lot more than one day! I really do think that having the proper foundation is the most essential thing of all, however. So I???m not going to be pushy on this subject at all. It???s not going to get one into, nor keep one out of, Heaven.
Personally, I don???t think even Andrew views the state of Israel the way I???m suggesting. I think it best that we both receive MARI, and get more grounded in the Brit Chadasha (NT) from a Jewish translator???s rendition of the 1st Century???s Apostolic recordings of our mutually Jewish King. We all have our expertises, and I figure that in all of Andrew???s pouring of heart into MARI to bring ???peace??? to all believing brethren, he hasn???t had the time to scour less fundamental and tricky issues as I have been able to do, while waiting for P.E.A.C.E. So the ball is in your court, really, I guess. I know you have a lot on your plate already. Perhaps this whole thing just needs to get sidelined for the time being? I personally wasn???t ready to attack it, nor to accept certain conclusions from it, until I was much more grounded in the Scriptures, namely, Israelology. Then again, all of my sources have been outside of the Nazarene fold, and not all of them have been fanatical kooks.
Quote:Please read this and reply if you???d like. I would enjoy seeing your response to my post.
I hope that I???ve been as kind-natured towards you as you have been towards me, Albion. I am thankful that I didn???t piss you off, honestly. I know how passionate you are, for our Jewish brethren. You really have commanded my respect in the tone of your response. This is also why I???ve devoted so much time to responding to it, hopefully in enough detail to get my general point across, without getting too specific. I don???t want to unravel everything all at once, as this is unwise in general, and frankly, an impossible burden on both of us. I just thank you for your understanding, and couldn???t ask for more!
Quote:???Blessed is He who comes in The Name of YHWH???.
The Jewish Messiah, Yeshua!
Quote:Your Brother in Messiah, Albion
Cordially yours, your Brother in Messiah Yeshua,
~Ryan