09-22-2008, 06:50 PM
My Brother Ryan,
I'm going to quote from Romans 11:1-5:
1. But I say, "has God rejected his people?" Let it not be so! For I am also from Israel. I am from the seed of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2. God has not rejected his people, who previously were known by him. Or do you not know what he said in the scripture about Elijah when he was complaining to God about Israel? and he said: 3. My Lord, they have killed your prophets and have pulled down your altars and I am left alone and they seek my life. 4. And it was said to him by revelation: Behold, I have reserved for myself seven thousand men who have not kneeled on their knees and have not worshipped Baal. 5. So also in this time, a remnant is left by the calling of grace.
This is from Janet Magiera's Peshitta translation.
I think it is especially important to look at verse 1, where Paul/Sha'ul says, "has God rejected his people? Let it not be so!" As you know from our conversations, I have done a lot of thinking and a lot of reading about the modern state of Israel.
As I told you, only 20% of the people that live in modern Israel believe that there is a God. I think that this statistic says it all. But then if you look at what Paul says, "has God rejected his people," and then he affirms the verse with "Let it not be so!," this plainly says to me that God is still in covenant with His people, Israel.
The political situation in modern Israel is very, very complex. There are days I can see both sides of the issues pretty plainly, and there are other days when I wonder why the IDF doesn't wipe their enemies from the face of the earth.
You seem to think, if I understand you correctly, that the modern nation of Israel is not of God's doing. I would have to strongly disagree with you about this conclusion.
The Jewish people are back in their own land as prophesied in the Tanakh. It is my opinion that their enemies, who completely surround them, will never drive them from the land again. And I'll tell you why--because in the End of Days, Messiah Yeshua will literally come out of the clouds, and personally fight their enemies and the forces of the anti-messiah.
But it will only be then that they finally say, "Blessed is he that comes in The Name of YHWH."
In my opinion, the Remnant of Israel that is left at this time will be the fulfillment of Paul's writing, and then all of Israel will be saved. I think that there's a chance that this Remnant will be a very small number, but nevertheless, it will equate to "ALL of Israel will be saved."
Now, I would like to address a couple of the issues in your fine post.
When we used to have the Sundance Channel on our TV, I saw a program dealing with how the Palestinian people were being treated by Israeli border guards as they went back and forth from Israel. I can honestly tell you that I felt sorry for the Palestinian people in the way that they were treated, the harassment and contempt and lack of decency on behalf of those Israeli border guards.
Now I know about all the terrorist bombings that happen because of the so-called Palestinian movement, how many innocent Israelis have been murdered on buses, in discos, in restaurants, and in other places where people frequent. I find this horrific and unfathomable.
There is so much hate and frustration on both sides of this very difficult issue, that I don't ever foresee an end to it. I think that the terrorist bombings will continue along with other acts of terrorism against the Israeli people, and I think that the Israelis hating the Palestinians and treating them with utter contempt will continue, as well.
Once a month I get a mailing from Maoz Israel, from a congregation of Messianic Jews (known as Tifret Yeshua) in Tel Aviv, Israel. The thing that I have seen from this congregation is the only way out of this horrid situation is for both sides to accept Yeshua as Messiah. Then Arabs and Jews can worship together and love each other as brothers. This is the ONLY way out of this mess. Unfortunately, although there are 10,000 Messianic believers in Israel now, I think the chance of most Israelis becoming Messianic believers is VERY slim.
I honestly think that it will take the time of Jacob's Troubles to come upon them, for true spiritual understanding to arise. I think that it's likely that thousands of Israelis may die during this time. I hope that this doesn't happen, but the prophetic writings seem to indicate that this is what's going to happen. Or so I read in the Scriptures.
I honestly think that it will only be when Yeshua appears in the sky that the vast majority of the Israeli people that are left at that time will finally understand that this is He whom they pierced and come to believe in Messiah.
But until then, in spite of Israel's spiritual stubbornness, their lack of belief, and their complete secular-ness, that they are still beloved as Paul said for the sake of the patriarchs. I don't believe that God has broken covenant with the Israeli people and I think the fact that modern Israel exists at all is PROOF that God loves the Jewish people, and has a special plan for them.
I think the fact that the desert has bloomed, and the modern nation of Israel supplies most of Europe with fruit and flowers, says that a miracle occurred with this nation. No one but God can create such miracles. Yes, satan can counterfeit some miracles, but I do not believe that this is the hand of satan, but is the arm of the Most High.
I want you to understand that we can agree to disagree and still be agreeable, that you are my brother in spite of anything that we disagree on, but having said this, I think that you are very wrong about the modern state of Israel, and God's relationship with it.
Please read this and reply if you'd like. I would enjoy seeing your response to my post.
"Blessed is He who comes in The Name of YHWH".
Your Brother in Messiah, Albion
I'm going to quote from Romans 11:1-5:
1. But I say, "has God rejected his people?" Let it not be so! For I am also from Israel. I am from the seed of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2. God has not rejected his people, who previously were known by him. Or do you not know what he said in the scripture about Elijah when he was complaining to God about Israel? and he said: 3. My Lord, they have killed your prophets and have pulled down your altars and I am left alone and they seek my life. 4. And it was said to him by revelation: Behold, I have reserved for myself seven thousand men who have not kneeled on their knees and have not worshipped Baal. 5. So also in this time, a remnant is left by the calling of grace.
This is from Janet Magiera's Peshitta translation.
I think it is especially important to look at verse 1, where Paul/Sha'ul says, "has God rejected his people? Let it not be so!" As you know from our conversations, I have done a lot of thinking and a lot of reading about the modern state of Israel.
As I told you, only 20% of the people that live in modern Israel believe that there is a God. I think that this statistic says it all. But then if you look at what Paul says, "has God rejected his people," and then he affirms the verse with "Let it not be so!," this plainly says to me that God is still in covenant with His people, Israel.
The political situation in modern Israel is very, very complex. There are days I can see both sides of the issues pretty plainly, and there are other days when I wonder why the IDF doesn't wipe their enemies from the face of the earth.
You seem to think, if I understand you correctly, that the modern nation of Israel is not of God's doing. I would have to strongly disagree with you about this conclusion.
The Jewish people are back in their own land as prophesied in the Tanakh. It is my opinion that their enemies, who completely surround them, will never drive them from the land again. And I'll tell you why--because in the End of Days, Messiah Yeshua will literally come out of the clouds, and personally fight their enemies and the forces of the anti-messiah.
But it will only be then that they finally say, "Blessed is he that comes in The Name of YHWH."
In my opinion, the Remnant of Israel that is left at this time will be the fulfillment of Paul's writing, and then all of Israel will be saved. I think that there's a chance that this Remnant will be a very small number, but nevertheless, it will equate to "ALL of Israel will be saved."
Now, I would like to address a couple of the issues in your fine post.
When we used to have the Sundance Channel on our TV, I saw a program dealing with how the Palestinian people were being treated by Israeli border guards as they went back and forth from Israel. I can honestly tell you that I felt sorry for the Palestinian people in the way that they were treated, the harassment and contempt and lack of decency on behalf of those Israeli border guards.
Now I know about all the terrorist bombings that happen because of the so-called Palestinian movement, how many innocent Israelis have been murdered on buses, in discos, in restaurants, and in other places where people frequent. I find this horrific and unfathomable.
There is so much hate and frustration on both sides of this very difficult issue, that I don't ever foresee an end to it. I think that the terrorist bombings will continue along with other acts of terrorism against the Israeli people, and I think that the Israelis hating the Palestinians and treating them with utter contempt will continue, as well.
Once a month I get a mailing from Maoz Israel, from a congregation of Messianic Jews (known as Tifret Yeshua) in Tel Aviv, Israel. The thing that I have seen from this congregation is the only way out of this horrid situation is for both sides to accept Yeshua as Messiah. Then Arabs and Jews can worship together and love each other as brothers. This is the ONLY way out of this mess. Unfortunately, although there are 10,000 Messianic believers in Israel now, I think the chance of most Israelis becoming Messianic believers is VERY slim.
I honestly think that it will take the time of Jacob's Troubles to come upon them, for true spiritual understanding to arise. I think that it's likely that thousands of Israelis may die during this time. I hope that this doesn't happen, but the prophetic writings seem to indicate that this is what's going to happen. Or so I read in the Scriptures.
I honestly think that it will only be when Yeshua appears in the sky that the vast majority of the Israeli people that are left at that time will finally understand that this is He whom they pierced and come to believe in Messiah.
But until then, in spite of Israel's spiritual stubbornness, their lack of belief, and their complete secular-ness, that they are still beloved as Paul said for the sake of the patriarchs. I don't believe that God has broken covenant with the Israeli people and I think the fact that modern Israel exists at all is PROOF that God loves the Jewish people, and has a special plan for them.
I think the fact that the desert has bloomed, and the modern nation of Israel supplies most of Europe with fruit and flowers, says that a miracle occurred with this nation. No one but God can create such miracles. Yes, satan can counterfeit some miracles, but I do not believe that this is the hand of satan, but is the arm of the Most High.
I want you to understand that we can agree to disagree and still be agreeable, that you are my brother in spite of anything that we disagree on, but having said this, I think that you are very wrong about the modern state of Israel, and God's relationship with it.
Please read this and reply if you'd like. I would enjoy seeing your response to my post.
"Blessed is He who comes in The Name of YHWH".
Your Brother in Messiah, Albion
Amatsyah Wrote:I would disagree. Why? If anyone desires to consider themself an Israelite, but does not do what God expects of an Israelite to do, then they are by definition not an Israelite. In other words, what does God's Scripture require of a man to be considered a member of Israel - that is, "Israel" as in how Torah defines her: a physical and spiritual entity of people, who by keeping the commandments of their God (the God YHWH), are thereby deemed His People; His Kingdom; His Body; His Bride; His Nation - a Nation separated from all other nations of the earth unto Himself? The answer, of course, is obvious. Scripture and the same God Who inspired It requires of His Israelites obedience to His commands, which are revealed in the Written Scriptures He gave to them in lightenings and thunderings from Mt. Sinai. If and when any of Israel breaks their end of the covenantal Torah contract, and continues on in unrepentance, then they lose their inheritance, because they deny the very Promises they themselves originally promised to enter into. The way back into these Promises, through Yeshua, is ONLY BY REPENTANCE.
Thereby, if you're tracking with me here, any individual or for that matter entity of people comprising themselves by name as "Israel", who do not display the Scriptural demands for this rightful title, are by definition NOT ISRAEL. In other words, a person or people can have genetic descent from the ancient Hebrews of Palestine, and yet simultaneously through their own rebellion deny themselves their SPIRITUAL inheritance. And for that matter, if you're paying attention to what Torah Itself says, rather than what religious tradition says, then you'll notice that ever so clearly, Torah Itself makes provisions for ANY and ALL living people, regardless as to ethnicity or nationality, of joining Israel and becoming an Israelite. One does this by making the decision to wholeheartedly accept upon themselves the Law (Torah) of YHWH, and put away from themselves ANY AND ALL OTHER laws, Talmudic included (the Talmud is to only be perused for reference, as with any other non-Scriptural religious text). The Torah was given from Mt. Sinai as the Covenantal Contract between YHWH and man. Thereby in not keeping It, one does not uphold their love towards YHWH, and cannot be considered a Covenant-keeper. If one does not keep covenant with YHWH, then He does not know them, nor they Him. I do however make the room for God's Grace, wherein I've drawn plenty for myself personally, through Yeshua's perfect and atoning Sacrifice, for our inescapable sins, and also the Grace for GROWING into all knowledge, understanding, and thus application of His Law to our lives. Order + Space. That's how see it.
So if you're still tracking with me here, you should be getting the sense by now that very few people on this planet seem to be manifestly displaying these characteristics as prescribed by God Himself, for a person called His Own. Certainly, whatever nation inhabits the downsized plot of ground over in the Middle East which is accused today of being "Israel", is certainly not the "Israel" that God calls true Israel. If they would desire to become what they claim to be, then they would put away from themselves all of their sins, their political agendas, their secular government, their bribery, their murders, their unjust retaliations, their micro-managing of the Arab population, their police state, their chauvinism, and their fraudulent claims to being God's People who have a right to "their" Land. If they would like it back, then God has prescribed the proper methodology for this occurrence: Repentance. So regardless as to whether a man be a Judahite, Levite, Benjamite, Reuvenite, Danite, or any other blood descendant of Jacob, they are lawfully forbidden from their Land until they corporately repent before God for the sins by which they have been and remain exiled. Repentance has consistently been THE ONLY remedy that God has accepted from Israel for return out of exile back to her Land, all throughout the Scriptures. Nothing has changed. And the fruits of the "Israeli state" more than demonstrate this truth today. A U.N. declaration and Zionism is not the power of prophecy. YHWH's Presence is. And It only has shown up throughout Scriptural history at the beckon of a rebellious People of God breaking down and casting aside their selfishness and ways of the world, and travailing out to Him in corporate repentance for their sins against Him.
So no, what is going on over in the Holy Land is not even remotely Scriptural, as per the kind of retaliation that the "nation of Israel" regularly practices. And it does not remind me of living under the Mosaic Law.
Considerately,
Ryan