09-18-2008, 09:29 PM
Shlama all--
No one knows more than I the limitations of human intellect--and nowhwere is that more true than with myself. However, I will try to answer where I can:
Thankyou so much Akhi Andrew, that was very kind and generous of you to post this reply when we are all confused over these terms. Now I was just thinking here...
ahem...sorry about this question:
1) Can't I just say the Nefesh is the body? Body as in physical being (the "You"- everything you have right now). I need a word. I was thinking about latin "persona"- occurence of a nature, your persona, your "being". Yes I agree that Yeshua had a human Nefesh and was ressurected by the Ruach of YHWH, and that this is not the same as an Eyvonim outlook (which is overly simplistic and to be frank heretical). Good luck with teaching that to mainstream Christianity though, it will be very tough.
AGR:
In a word: NO! The nefesh is NOT the body. The nefesh is the life that drives the body. Akhi, I just spent a good amount of time telling you that you cannot get a one word correspondence from eastern to western paradgims, and then, you ask for that one word?? NO, use DEFINITIONS instead.
2)So the Nefesh "sleeps". So far so good. Nothing new in that (like that story of the girl "sleeping" who gets revived). Ok...so your body is placed in "cryogenic" mode by YHWH somewhere seperate to him I presume, while he evaluates your spirit (Ruach) to see if you were a "good person" a good Nefesh. If not, you don't get ressurected, if yes you do get ressurected (like in that chapter of Revelations). Ressurection=Nefesh+Ruach, No ressurection both get destroyed. So that's a summary of the afterlife. I don't know if I am correct.
AGR:
I would doubt it. A cryogenic body is still alive. I believe YHWH knows the ultimate time of our total death and the ruach does not separate prior to this. But ALL get resurrected. The question is WHICH resurrection and what happens after? As I mentioned, I know this too, but I am not going there. I think we should shoot for the first resurrection though...
3) If my preliminary definition of nefesh is correct- it's an occurence of a nature (human or otherwise), a qnoma sort of
AGR:
Stop right there. Turn around, go back, do not pass go, do not collect $200. Qnoma is NOT a nefesh nor a ruach nor a neshama. Just get that out of your mind and never return to it again. Qnoma is at a whole other level and you cannot mix these up. Qnoma, one of its meanings, is CORE SUBTANCE, therefore, ruach and nefesh and such are MADE from that stuff. Qnoma to my mind are the building blocks of spiritual matter, whereas nefesh and what not are the RESULT of that matter. To suggest equivalence between these levels is like saying amino acids and carbon are the same thing as a full human being.
(well...qnoma uses Nefesh and Ruach as building blocks, not just the Nefesh),
AGR:
No, the other way around...
then here's something I thought concerning the blood question: maybe your not eating a soul. Your just consuming the physical 3 dimensional nature of the being you ate.
AGR:
Steak qadmon??? I would doubt it. But Scripture does not say directly.
The Ruach is still around. I mean please- what if you were living in the Aztec empire and a worshipper of a pagan god came in, tore your heart out and ate it? Would your soul dissapear and you be denied an afterlife because of that person's evil?
AGR:
Of course not--where do you get these ideas Akhi? Man cannot affect the underlying structures of our being in this way. Man can kill man of course, but that's it. The disposition of the spiritual matter is for YHWH and YHWH alone to deal with. Think about what you are saying here because you know better. Even from a Christian view, you have just emptied to execution stake of its power. You have taken the ability to judge away from the Son and put it in the hands of a pagan preist!!! Think about it...
This is sounding like those middle ages arguments over anatomy, with doctors having to sneak into cemeteries to get bodies for testing because clergy thought that cutting the limbs off would anger God and the person would go to the afterlife without limbs. I know orthdox Jews believe this still (in terrorist attacks every last speck of the bodies must be obtained for burial, and terrorists often use bodies as blackmail tools because the victims are grieved and want the family member's bodies back) but it sounds so bad, so very bad.
AGR:
it doesn't matter what it sounds like. It matters where it is FROM.
I like my "interpretation" better.
AGR:
Well, sure, because if there was an interpretation you liked better...
Remember Akhi, if it's not provable directly from Scripture, AVOID IT.
Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
No one knows more than I the limitations of human intellect--and nowhwere is that more true than with myself. However, I will try to answer where I can:
Thankyou so much Akhi Andrew, that was very kind and generous of you to post this reply when we are all confused over these terms. Now I was just thinking here...
ahem...sorry about this question:
1) Can't I just say the Nefesh is the body? Body as in physical being (the "You"- everything you have right now). I need a word. I was thinking about latin "persona"- occurence of a nature, your persona, your "being". Yes I agree that Yeshua had a human Nefesh and was ressurected by the Ruach of YHWH, and that this is not the same as an Eyvonim outlook (which is overly simplistic and to be frank heretical). Good luck with teaching that to mainstream Christianity though, it will be very tough.
AGR:
In a word: NO! The nefesh is NOT the body. The nefesh is the life that drives the body. Akhi, I just spent a good amount of time telling you that you cannot get a one word correspondence from eastern to western paradgims, and then, you ask for that one word?? NO, use DEFINITIONS instead.
2)So the Nefesh "sleeps". So far so good. Nothing new in that (like that story of the girl "sleeping" who gets revived). Ok...so your body is placed in "cryogenic" mode by YHWH somewhere seperate to him I presume, while he evaluates your spirit (Ruach) to see if you were a "good person" a good Nefesh. If not, you don't get ressurected, if yes you do get ressurected (like in that chapter of Revelations). Ressurection=Nefesh+Ruach, No ressurection both get destroyed. So that's a summary of the afterlife. I don't know if I am correct.
AGR:
I would doubt it. A cryogenic body is still alive. I believe YHWH knows the ultimate time of our total death and the ruach does not separate prior to this. But ALL get resurrected. The question is WHICH resurrection and what happens after? As I mentioned, I know this too, but I am not going there. I think we should shoot for the first resurrection though...
3) If my preliminary definition of nefesh is correct- it's an occurence of a nature (human or otherwise), a qnoma sort of
AGR:
Stop right there. Turn around, go back, do not pass go, do not collect $200. Qnoma is NOT a nefesh nor a ruach nor a neshama. Just get that out of your mind and never return to it again. Qnoma is at a whole other level and you cannot mix these up. Qnoma, one of its meanings, is CORE SUBTANCE, therefore, ruach and nefesh and such are MADE from that stuff. Qnoma to my mind are the building blocks of spiritual matter, whereas nefesh and what not are the RESULT of that matter. To suggest equivalence between these levels is like saying amino acids and carbon are the same thing as a full human being.
(well...qnoma uses Nefesh and Ruach as building blocks, not just the Nefesh),
AGR:
No, the other way around...
then here's something I thought concerning the blood question: maybe your not eating a soul. Your just consuming the physical 3 dimensional nature of the being you ate.
AGR:
Steak qadmon??? I would doubt it. But Scripture does not say directly.
The Ruach is still around. I mean please- what if you were living in the Aztec empire and a worshipper of a pagan god came in, tore your heart out and ate it? Would your soul dissapear and you be denied an afterlife because of that person's evil?
AGR:
Of course not--where do you get these ideas Akhi? Man cannot affect the underlying structures of our being in this way. Man can kill man of course, but that's it. The disposition of the spiritual matter is for YHWH and YHWH alone to deal with. Think about what you are saying here because you know better. Even from a Christian view, you have just emptied to execution stake of its power. You have taken the ability to judge away from the Son and put it in the hands of a pagan preist!!! Think about it...
This is sounding like those middle ages arguments over anatomy, with doctors having to sneak into cemeteries to get bodies for testing because clergy thought that cutting the limbs off would anger God and the person would go to the afterlife without limbs. I know orthdox Jews believe this still (in terrorist attacks every last speck of the bodies must be obtained for burial, and terrorists often use bodies as blackmail tools because the victims are grieved and want the family member's bodies back) but it sounds so bad, so very bad.
AGR:
it doesn't matter what it sounds like. It matters where it is FROM.
I like my "interpretation" better.
AGR:
Well, sure, because if there was an interpretation you liked better...
Remember Akhi, if it's not provable directly from Scripture, AVOID IT.
Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth