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The Way International And The Downfall Of James Scott Trimm
I'm gonna say this PUBLICALLY.

I talked to 'The Way International' on both Monday, and Tuesday
of this week.

I talked to them on the phone, and took them on "a guided tour"
of Kathyrn Kern's website, and spent probably an hour and a half
doing this.

They did NOT previously know the vast majority of what James
Trimm had done in his (edited by admin: "alleged") plagiarism of their Aramaic-English New

James your DONE. Your number is UP pal, you just don't know it

I would suggest by early Spring, or Summer at the latest, that we
will see James Trimm prosecuted for his (edited by admin: "alleged") crimes.

His HRV pulled from the shelves of the ISR.......everything that
we had hoped for for YEARS, and perhaps even more!!

Let's be careful here, the last thing we want is a lawsuit for defamation, slander or libel. We can attack ideas, but keep the person (and personal details of someones life) out of the public forum. Otherwise we are opening up to a bunch of liability.

-Shamasha Paul
Paul Younan Wrote:Akhay,

Let's be careful here, the last thing we want is a lawsuit for defamation, slander or libel. We can attack ideas, but keep the person (and personal details of someones life) out of the public forum. Otherwise we are opening up to a bunch of liability.

-Shamasha Paul
I thought this was what I had been trying to do for weeks, only I argued on a religious basis (lashon hara'a) rather than a legal one (libel and defamation). What's different now?
Shlama to you Akhi Dawid,

Perhaps you do not know Trimm as I and others do, and have, for many years. I can't speak to what Akhan Albion discussed with the Way International as I was not there. And my personal feeling is that HRV was not plagiarized, but as I said, I have not had the Way International to compare it with. So this is good example of how careful I try to be, in that even now I am not buying into allegations that have not been proved to my satisfaction according to Torah. So when I tell you there are many other things that I know Trimm did that were not good, hopefully this will give my opinion some weight. I do not do these things capriciously or lightly.

However, while I will not say anything that may expose the forum to liability, I did want to comment on lashon haraa. All too often I have found Netzarim hiding behind this concept when overwhelming evidence of a person's guilt exists from multiple witnesses and can be certified through legal affidavits and hard evidence. This is the case with Trimm. Legal authorities have and will continue to investigate various offenses, both major and minor. Many of these things are not just vain allegations but facts backed up by witnesses and testimony from Trimm's own mouth. As I said, I won't give specifics for the sake of the forum.

I think though that we need to remember that lashon haraa means "false report", and the context from where this term arises, the report of the cowardly spies. Torah does though also allow mechanisms to clearly establish guilt, and these are continued in the NT. Two (or three) witnesses can and do substantiate allegations. And, as I said, in other cases Trimm has confessed in front of many witnesses, online and in public.

I encourage you then to explore these things independently and from multiple sources to satisfy yourself that those of us who have issues with Trimm do not have them from a place of whim or impulse. These problems go back almost 10 years and my concern is that the greatest asset he will have is folks thinking that no hard evidence against him exists, that we are on some kind of unjust witch hunt, or whatever.

I can assure you that I stood by Trimm for years when people were attacking him. I stayed on his fake Beit Din and I allowed myself to be associated with him when friends by the dozen were begging me to leave, trying to show me proof, and I didn't listen until it was too late. I backed him in public and online to my own shame. I tried to prop up his shoody scholarship when even at the time that I was in his corner I knew many things were wrong there. I begged folks for patience when they complained to me about, for lack of a better term, less than timely delivery of things they paid for by him. As I write this I am holding back more than you can possibly imagine, again for the sake of this forum.

My message then to you is, at the risk of repeating myself, don't assume that we are engaged in lashon haraa when we are in possession of facts that you can easily find for yourself. To assume lashon haraa where overwhelming evidence exists in itself lashon haraa. It assumes that we have not done due diligence by the rules of Torah, when I can assure you we have. I do not attack the innocent Dawid. I am slow to anger. It took 6 years before I saw what I needed to see so I didn't come to my conclusions without much prayer, pain and careful discernment. Neither has Akhan Albion, who has an equal amount of deep experience with James Trimm. If it takes you a long time to see what James has done, that is fine with me. All I ask is you keep an open mind as you explore the truth.

Matthew 7 says to not judge, for you will be judged by the standards you apply. I am HAPPY to have myself judged by the standards that I judge Trimm by. You know why? Because I would NEVER do the things he has done. And if I did the smallest thing wrong in that direction as Trimm had, people who have known me for years know that I would repent publically of all errors made publicly. Trimm has not done that for the most part, only when he has been cornered and had no choice. I speak from what I have seen.

Since I can't give specifics, all I can say is that you can see the problems for yourself elsewhere. Just google his name and keep reading. Yes there is some misinformation out there about him, but I have been the first person to defend him when that has happened. But MOST of it is totally true.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
Andrew, even if he is guilty, spreading what you think about him is still not acceptable. Lashon HaRa'a, you know as well as I do, is the evil tongue, not necessarily a false report, but gossip, whether said gossip is true or false. An evil report. You know as well as I do that you are supposed to go to the offender if you have a problem, not spread it around. R. Yehohsu'a told us this.
Trimm's guilt or innocence is irrelevant to me, since I am not sitting on a beyt din, nor was his offense against me. If I were appointed to a beyt din to decide his guilt or innocence, then it would matter. As it is, I disagree with many of his opinions, and I am willing to debate them, but I refuse to indulge in the ad hominem fallacy.
I am not assuming that you do not have evidence. It does not matter. Spreading it before a judgment has been made by either a religious court or a secular court is lashon hara'a, even if the accused party is guilty.
I am keeping my mind open, which is precisely why I have made no judgment whatsoever about Mr. Trimm. It simply doesn't matter to me. I am not on a court, I am not a judge, I am not a juror. If and when sentence is passed then I will have no problem with you and Albion saying what the court has already proven.

Shavu'a Tov,
Dawid, that's an excellent position to take.

For the record, nothing on the forum has changed for years. We have a strict prohibition on attacking a person or a group, whether it be gossip or fact. We have to remember that although is not subject to the judgments of any beit dein, it is subject to the laws of the U.S.

If we bring details of someone's personal life into a public forum, it becomes a triable offense if that person should decide to sue. If we say someone plagiarized something, and they prove they didn't, it also becomes triable. We have free speech, but not the freedom to ruin someone's reputation.
Shlama Akhi Dawid,

So are you saying that you know with 100% certainty that no Netzari religious body has publicly heard Trimm's confessions or reviewed extensive evidence against him and delivered a legitimate ruling? Is that your position? I ask because you said:

Spreading it before a judgment has been made by either a religious court or a secular court is lashon hara'a, even if the accused party is guilty.

True position and I agree with you conceptually, but that is not this situation. Those judgments you mention have already happened. If you don't know you should check into it before assuming others don't know what they are talking about. There is no one unified Netzari Sanhedrin as you know, but there are assemblies that can hear and carefully judge evidence, and I know of at least two that have, one very recently. Or is it the case that because there is no one Jersualem body you feel no group of Netzari can decide on matters of halakha? I also remind you that I have said I disagree with the plagairism charge, which was the start of this thread. It is the rebuke that Akhan Albion got that caused me to comment.

That is all I have to say on the matter, except that the dimensions are far deeper than just a scholarly argument. Nevertheless, I am done and will respect Akhan Paul's request. You can find out though off-forum what has really happened and JUDGE FOR YOURSELF. If I am asking you to weigh evidence directly, that is not lashon haraa but its opposite, and I think you know that. Way more than two or three eyewitnesses have weighed in on this. Truth is not gossip and truth is not evil either. YHWH shall judge Trimm ultimately, not any of us. I may have used "judge" language but I claim no rabbinic style authority for myself as you might understand it. I lead no congregation nor am I ordained. I do believe though it is quite easy for me not to do as he has done.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
My Dear Friends,

I come to this conclusion with a very heavy heart.

Let me lay my complete position out here.


I can't really understand why Paul allows someone KNOWN to be "a life destroyer" to be a member of

We all know exactly WHO I mean here.

Is it necessary to offer succor and a place to write, to a known evil person?

I Love you Paul, but that literally breaks my heart.

I Love like I Love my own daughters. I honestly DO.

Dawid. Your about what 25 or 26 years old, I thought that I knew everything when I was 25 and 26 years old too. But you know WHAT? I was WRONG.

And so are YOU!

Talk to me when your 56, and see how different the world is THEN!

Your sowing your stuff here about "Lashon Ha Ra" is just sickening. That's all that I can say.

Do YOU even *have a copy* of The Way International 3 Volume Aramaic-English New Testament, to compare with the HRV New Testament??

Yeah, that's exactly what I thought.

I want to tell Paul Younan and Andrew Gabriel Roth how much your work has influenced me and made my life a better place to live in.

I will miss you both more than I can say, and I type this in tears.

My Brother Paul, NO ONE is gonna sue YOU, or, I'm gonna tell you what Yeshua kept on telling His Disciples.

"Be not AFRAID!"

I would still like to make that "Pilgrimage" that we spoke of in Spring.

You have offered me a chance to write at the koolest website on the whole internet, and I'll forever be grateful for that! I really WILL.

I have to do this thing with James Trimm, I CAN'T effect the OTHER thing in my life (let the reader understand), but I CAN effect the out come of what eventually happens to James Scott Trimm.

I remember once upon a time when you spoke out boldly against James Trimm, Paul.

And not really all that long ago, either.

But I understand about taking care of one's business, and one's family.

Those are lofty things, and I'm on Disability, and have really NOTHING that James Trimm, or anyone else, could sue me over, or FOR.

Not so YOU. And I understand THIS.

Thank you for giving me the privilege of writing here. I have been truly honored to be able to write here at

My Brother Andrew, your right about so many things. I wish you really well with MARI/P.E.A.C.E., and I look so forward to holding it in my hands.

It's like waiting for one of my own daughters to be born again. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

MarYah Bless you my Brother Andrew. I Love you.

I apparently don't do "Goodbye" very well.

I'll miss you all very much. I'm pretty emotional right now, and that's so hard to write.

Paul if it's OK, I'll leave my membership here still. Thanks.

I Love you too My Brother Paul.

"When it's all been said and done, there's only One thing that matters........"
Robin Mark

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Fare Well & Shlama, Albion
Dear brother,


This isn't my forum, it belongs to all of us. However we have rules that have to be followed by everyone, myself included.

Quote:In an effort to make this forum as useful and as constructive as possible, any threatening, abusive, libelous, or defamatory information of any kind posted here will be removed. Personal insults or insults toward any community will not be tolerated and the entire post will be summarily removed, along with its replies.

albion Wrote:I can't really understand why Paul allows someone KNOWN to be "a life destroyer" to be a member of

We all know exactly WHO I mean here.

Is it necessary to offer succor and a place to write, to a known evil person?

I Love you Paul, but that literally breaks my heart.

I love you too, Albion.

Everyone is welcome here, everyone. I don't care what they've done in life, are doing in life, will do in their lifetime. The creed they profess doesn't matter to me, if they have no creed that's fine with me too. All I ask is that the above forum rule is adhered to.

There is no human being who is evil. Our actions may be evil at times. And there is no greater sinner alive than myself....believe me.

I try to moderate and treat everyone fairly. I know I fail at times. It's not easy.

If there's ever a reason for me to ban someone, I will. But to this point in our long history, no one has ever been banned from this forum. Certainly no one recently has done anything deserving of a revocation of their membership, that I know of.

You're asking me to be unfair, and that's something I'm not willing to do. I realize there's a lot of history between yourself and the member you are speaking of. But that hasn't happened here, and I have no intention of letting something like that happen here.

If I'm going to err, it's going to be on the side of fairness and the "Golden Rule." I'm going to pray for my enemies, love everyone (at least try), and not judge.

No reason for a goodbye, brother. <!-- sHuh --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/huh.gif" alt="Huh" title="Huh" /><!-- sHuh -->
Shlama Akhay,

Akhi Albion, I agree with Akhan Paul here. There is no need for you to say goodbye to us over this. You and I have said our piece with respect to You-Know-Who. There are other things to explore here beyond the problems with this person, and those problems are well-documented, as you also know.

We have said what we had to say, and now we should move on. The world of the holy Peshitta is bigger than all of us, and way more edifying. Your reasons for rejoicing in the return of this forum have not changed one bit. You know I speak the truth. You can share with me off-forum whatever grief you have--you know that.

Look brother Albion and hear me well. There is no need to endlessly make a point that you and I know from direct experience is well established. It's like trying to preach 2 +2 =4 100 times a day. Yes it's true but why talk of that only or feel that you can't talk about anything else just because others don't know what we know? Speaking forthright and moving from that point to another does not detract from the validity of the original speech. It simply means there are other things to talk about.

As your friend, I ask you to reconsider.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
Akhi Albion,
Please listen to what I'm saying. I've not said anything about lashon hara'a out of anger. I've not said any of it rashly, but rather because I saw an apparent violation of the Torah (will discuss this in a bit with Akhnu Andrew) and I wanted to encourage y'all to not do this. My tone has been one of pleading, not of anger.
But, as far as the accusation of lashon hara'a goes, this mitzwa may have been abused by some to try to avoid criticism. I don't know. I've not seen it personally. But we can't simply blow it off because of that. You and Akhnu Andrew both seem to say that if it's true then it isn't lashon hara'a. I don't believe that is an accurate definition of lashon hara'a. If it isn't my business, if it is gossip, then it's lashon hara'a, whether it's true or not. I once heard an excellent definition of gossip: if I'm not part of the problem, or part of the solution, it's gossip. I was not offended, I am not appointed a judge, and therefore it's not my business. So if you're telling me about it, it's gossip.
I also don't think that my age should be an issue. As Sha'ul put it, let no man despise you because of your youth.

Akhi Andrew,
If such a judgment has been made in accordance with the Torah, please send me a link to the body that made the judgment. I'd like to see it.
If this is true, I would like to point out that the proper method of telling people about these alleged crimes would be to point them to the body that made the judgment in the first place. If you had told me sooner that such a judgment had been made this would have all been cleared up much sooner.
No, I do not think that it necessarily has to be a central Sanhedrin in Yerushalam, so long as it is a legitimate court it doesn't matter.

Shalom uvrachot,
Shlama Akhi Dawid,

I have sent you a lot of documentation privately. You seem though to keep misunderstanding. Albion and I were there for these events. Paul Younan knows about a lot of the problems too. This is not new stuff for many, many folks here. The judgments were very well published. Therefore, the burden was on YOU to check these things out before assuming we had not done due process. To deny such due process is also lashon haraa. Do you understand? I don't mind that you didn't take my word for it. I mind that you refused to look into the matter and judge it for yourself. I did not ask for a particular judgement verdict from you either. I have done everything according to Torah.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
Andrew Gabriel Roth Wrote:Shlama Akhi Dawid,

I have sent you a lot of documentation privately. You seem though to keep misunderstanding. Albion and I were there for these events. Paul Younan knows about a lot of the problems too. This is not new stuff for many, many folks here. The judgments were very well published. Therefore, the burden was on YOU to check these things out before assuming we had not done due process. To deny such due process is also lashon haraa. Do you understand? I don't mind that you didn't take my word for it. I mind that you refused to look into the matter and judge it for yourself. I did not ask for a particular judgement verdict from you either. I have done everything according to Torah.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
Akhi Andrew, I still think that your understanding of lashon hara'a is incorrect. Whether you were there or not doesn't matter. I had heard these kinds of accusations before, but had not heard of an actual judgment being made. But whether you were there and saw it or not doesn't matter. It may be true, but that is not the point. The point is that unless it has been brought before a court, we have no business spreading it around. It is our duty to take it to our brother first alone, then with one or two other witnesses, and then to take it before a court. Not to spread it abroad. It doesn't matter if it is true or not.
You should have told me that due process had been followed and pointed me to the decision, not simply spread the story. That is lashon hara'a. I came directly to you and to akhnu Albion when I saw an apparent violation of the Torah. That is due process, not lashon hara'a. If I had gone around telling people that you and akhnu Albion were slandering akhnu Trimm, that would be lashon hara'a, whether it was true or not.
The judgment is not mine to make on my own. It is for a proper governing body to make. You should not ask me to judge, but you should ask a beyt din, or equivalent body. It is not mine to judge, since I was not on a beyt din, nor was I one of the involved parties.

Shlama Akhi Dawid,

Have you read what I sent or not? When you do, there is plenty more to be had, I assure you. The religious rulings have HAPPENED. The due process is CONCLUDED. The confessions have been MADE. If I am guilty of anything it is assuming that you had the common knowledge of the rest of us. How many Netzari bodies need to rule on this before you think said rulings are fair? Or is being disfellowshipped a minor matter?


What I wrote about Trimm has been ruled on in the exact way you suggest it should have been. We have individually and collectively spoken with him privately first, then taken testimony for the record in front of elders and witnesses. If you say you rely on Netzari rabbinic courts to establish these things, I agree with you and tell you they have done this. What is unclear?

He has had not just his day in court but his DAYS in COURTS, both religious and civil. I have given you names, facts, dates and lists of rabbis and other Netzari leaders that you can talk to about their official and proper Torah based deliberations. Without your understanding that, you are in honestly no position to tell me I don't know what lashon hara is or how it is applied. You don't even know or can you elucidate to me what was not done that should have been in his case. YOU MAY DISAGREE OF COURSE WITH THESE RULINGS FOR WHATEVER REASON, BUT DON'T TELL ME THEY DID NOT HAPPEN BEFORE THIS.

I am writing about this months after the most recent ruling and years after the first one. I am also writing about things I have witnessed myself and can corroborate through others, which is my right. Out of the mouths of two witnesses shall every word be established--and this has been DONE!

You just don't seem willing to look at this. I have not "spread" anything. The decisons were publicly made and rendered long ago by several boards of rabbis. Most Netzarim know these facts well. The only reason you do not seem to is because you are over-compensating from a noble place which I respect but I find your application inconsistent. How can you sit there and first say "show me link/facts" and then when I do turn back around and say "I can't judge it, he didn't hurt me, I wasn't on the beit din"???? So if you don't get proof it's not sufficient and if you do get proof it is also not sufficient? You have not even commented on what I sent privately, or told me that you would read and think about it but you will say I am guilty of lashon hara instead, so who has the open mind really? Are you willing to investigate or are all of us just liars to you?

When I say "judge for yourself" I am only asking you to do what you say you are trying to do, keep an open mind. I am asking you to read the testimonies of those of us who were there for part or all of the drama that has unfolded. Or do you think that I and the rabbis I privately listed for you made it up? If you think we rushed to judgment, what is that belief based on? Certainly not on what I sent you. If you, again, say that I spoke in advance of said process, you are WRONG!

I repeat again--all too often Netzarim hide behind lashon hara fears to never speak out against wrongdoing, and that is not proper. Just look at the letters of Paul and John and others. They had no qualms condemning heresies in their assemblies and told us that we could judge those who are in those assemblies and leave YHWH to judge the world outside it. If you don't believe me, I suggest you read 1 Corinthians 5.

Put simply, you don't know what you are talking about.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth

I told myself last night that I would NOT come back here and do this, but here I am.

Your NOT gonna like A LOT of what I have say.

1. Let's get REAL here.

The vast majority of Messianic Judaism (in AMERICA) IS IN A MESS.

Ditto for the Nazarenes.

There is SOME talk of convening "a Second Jerusalem Council" by some of the major players in the Messianic Jewish leadership here in North America.

The Second Jerusalem Council would be made up of PHYSICAL ISRAEL (and NOT Goyim wanna be's) and would include Messianic Jewish leaders from all over the planet.

As an interested Gentile who has friends that are Messianic Jews, I really hope that this Second Council actually takes place. But that's another story.

2. Now, let's get back to James Trimm.

I already KNEW last night that you did NOT have The Way International Aramaic-English New Testament, to even COMPARE it to Trimm's HRV New Testament.

Come on Dawid!!!! Pleaseeeeeee.

I WENT TO JAMES TRIMM on his 'Nazarene Judaism' e-list and tried to reason with him, ALONE.

You know his response to my trying to reason with HIM?

He threw me OFF THE LIST.

Then I've tried reasoning with him along side Schumel (or Steve Avery from New York City), who Owns and operates Messianic Apologetic (a Yahoo e-list) and Nana who also is on Steve's e-list.

Do you wanna know James Scott Trimm's reaction with US (3 witnesses) trying to reason with HIM?

He went to Yahoo and created a FAKE e-list called "Messianic Apologetics"!

The EXACT SAME NAME as Schmuel's e-list, but with an 's' on the end!

You NEED to go and read Kathrine Kern's website:

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So, I've DONE everything that you suggest that I should DO.


You need to STOP your incessant whining about "Lashon Ha Ra".

I used to drive a public school bus for 7 years, and your sounding more and more like some Junior High School kid that I had to write up for being in trouble on the bus!

If he (or she) had not caused trouble in the first place, they would've NOT been in trouble!

But whining is certainly NOT gonna fix anything! THEN or NOW.

Just chill. Put on a Jimmy Buffett CD, put your feet up, and kick back. Everything's gonna be OK, because this stuff about James Trimm is a MarYah thing, and MarYah is ALWAYS RIGHT ON TIME.

Do you actually THINK that I would have FINALLY gone to The Way International unless and until, I had TRIED EVERYTHING ELSE FIRST?

There are multiple witnesses to ALL of this, including Akhan Paul Younan:

Paul Younan 5. "RE: Dr. Trimm on"
Jun-08-2003 at 05:39 PM (GMT3)
Hi Akhi,

To be completely honest with you, I find it very annoying to
argue with someone who can't even speak Aramaic, about Aramaic.

James Trimm is a student. He learned whatever little he knows
from reading books. That's not a bad thing. What is bad is when
he sets himself up as some sort of authority on the topic, which
he is not.

What's worse is that he insists on arguing with me about the
meaning of words he has no clue about, about a language that is
completely foreign to him and that he can't even hold a 30-
second discussion in, face-to-face.

James Trimm is a person of Scottish lineage. His family background
is deep southern U.S. Protestant Christian, not Jewish.
Furthermore, James Trimm has absolutely NO credentials to be calling
himself a "Dr.", and you shouldn't address him as
such, either. That gives people the wrong impression, but
that's your choice.

Nobody who really knows a spit of Aramaic pays any attention
to him, as Dr. Kiraz will attest to you.

I will be here to answer any questions you need me for, but
realize that I have serious qualms about giving him any more
undeserved attention than he already gets.

Paul Younan

Fk^rwbw 0ml4



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