Chaim Bentorah discusses Peshitta words

[DavidFord]

Do you see anything in 1 Peter 3:10-12 that came from the LXX?

1 Peter 3 (Berean Literal)
https://biblehub.com/blb/1_peter/3.htm
10 For,
“The one desiring to love life,
and to see good days,
let him keep the tongue from evil,
and lips not to speak deceit.
11 Also let him turn away from evil,
and let him do good.
Let him seek peace
and let him pursue it.
12 Because the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous,
and His ears toward their prayer.
But the face of the Lord is against those doing evil.”

Psalm 34 (JPS Tanakh)
https://biblehub.com/jps/psalms/34.htm
מ
13 Who is the man that desireth life, and loveth days,
That he may see good therein?
נ
14 Keep thy tongue from evil,
And thy lips from speaking guile.
ס
15 Depart from evil, and do good;
Seek peace, and pursue it.
ע
16 The eyes of the LORD are toward the righteous,
And His ears are open unto their cry.
פ
17 The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, ...

Psalm 34 (Brenton's Septuagint)
https://biblehub.com/sep/psalms/34.htm
12 (33:12)
What man is there that desires life,
loving to see good days?
13 (33:13)
Keep thy tongue from evil,
and thy lips from speaking guile.
14 (33:14)
Turn away from evil, and do good;
seek peace, and pursue it.
15 (33:15)
The eyes of the Lord are over the righteous,
and his ears are open to their prayer:
16 (33:16)
but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil,  ...

Psalm 34 (PHBT)
https://biblehub.com/hpbt/psalms/34.htm
12 Who is the man who desires life
and loves to see good days?
13 Keep your tongue from evil
and your lips will not speak deceit.
14 Pass from evil
and do good,
seek peace
and run after it.
15 The eyes of LORD JEHOVAH are upon the righteous ones,
and his ears to hear them.
16 The face of LORD JEHOVAH is against the evil, ...

Psalm 33(34) (NETS LXX)
https://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/
https://www.amazon.com/New-English-Trans...195289757/
specifically Psalms
PDF
https://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/24-ps-nets.pdf
13(12)
What person is he who wants life,
coveting to see good days?
14(13)
Stop your tongue from evil
and your lips from speaking deceit.
15(14)
Turn away from evil, and do good;
seek peace, and pursue it.
16(15)
The Lord's eyes are on the righteous,
and his ears are toward their petition.
17(16)
But the Lord's face is against evildoers, ...

For Ps 34, the known Dead Sea Scrolls fragments only have tiny pieces of Ps 34:20-21.
https://archive.org/details/B-001-001-93...s+bones%22
20 [He keeps all his bones, not one of them is brok]en.
21 [Evil] will sl[ay the wicked; and those who hate the righteous will be held guilty].

[DavidFord]

I looked, and didn't notice any good evidence supporting the allegation that 1 Peter quoted from the LXX.
What am I overlooking?

Bart Ehrman, _Forged: Writing in the Name of God-- Why the Bible's Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are_ (2011), 307pp., on 67
https://archive.org/details/BartD.Ehrman...septuagint
https://www.amazon.com/Forged-Writing-Go...062012622/
Page n78
... A good deal of the exhortation and encouragement to his readers is based on a sophisticated interpretation of key passages in the Old Testament, quoted, of course, in Greek, the so-called Septuagint (the legendary origins of which are described in the forged _Letter of Aristeas_ discussed in Chapter 1), as can be seen, for example, in 1:24-25; 2:3, 6-9, 22, 24-25; 3:10-12.

[DavidFord]

When Hebrews 10:5 was originally written, did it have:
"you have prepared for me a body"?
"you have clothed me with a body"?

When Hebrews 10:5-7 was originally written, did it quote from:
the LXX seen in Brenton's Septuagint?
the LXX seen in the NETS LXX?
the Peshitta Tanakh?
a textual tradition from the Dead Sea Scrolls era, now lost to the sands of time?

Hebrews 10 (EBV Dutch Peshitta)
http://dukhrana.com/peshitta/index.php
Hebrews 10:5 - Daarom zei Hij bij zijn komst in de wereld: "Slachtoffers en offergaven hebt U niet gewild, maar U hebt Mij met een lichaam bekleed.
U hebt Mij ... bekleed - dit is de lezing van de Aramese Peshitta. De lezing van de Griekse NA28, MHT en TR luidt: 'U hebt Mij een lichaam bereid'.
google translate:
Hebrews 10:5 - Therefore when he came into the world he said,
"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but you have clothed me with a body."
You have clothed me ... - this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta.
The reading of the Greek NA28, MHT and TR is:
'A body you have prepared for me'.

Hebrews 10 (PHBT)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-engli...ews/10.htm
5 Because of this, when he entered the universe, he said,
"Sacrifices and offerings you did not want,
but you have clothed me with a body,
6 "And burnt peace-offerings for sins you have not demanded.
7 And I said, 'Behold, I come',
because in the beginning of The Writings it is written of me,
'to do your will, oh God.'"

Heb 10:5 (APNT)
https://www.aramaicdb.org/index.php/sear...rfilters=0
Because of this, when he entered the world he said,
"You are not pleased with sacrifices and offerings,
but you have clothed me with a body.

Hebrews 10:5
https://dukhrana.com/peshitta/analyze_ve...ize=125%25
(Etheridge) Wherefore when he cometh into the world he saith,
Sacrifices and oblations thou hast not willed,
but with a body hast thou clothed me:
(Murdock) Therefore, when entering the world, he said:
In sacrifices and oblations, thou hast not had pleasure;
but thou hast clothed me with a body.

(KJV) Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith,
Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not,
but a body hast thou prepared me:

Hebrews 10 (Berean Literal)
https://biblehub.com/blb/hebrews/10.htm
5 Therefore coming into the world, He says:
“Sacrifice and offering You have not desired,
but a body You have prepared me.
6 In burnt offerings and _offerings_ for sin
You have not delighted.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come--
in _the_ scroll of _the_ book it is written of Me--
to do Your will, O God.’”

=====
Psalm 40 (PHBT)
https://biblehub.com/hpbt/psalms/40.htm
6 With sacrifices and with offerings you have not been pleased,
but you have pierced the ears for me;
burnt peace offerings for sin you have not requested.
7 Then I said, "Behold, I have come,
for in the first of The Writings it is written about me:"
8 To do your pleasure oh, God, I have desired,
and your Law is within my belly.

Psalm 40 (Lamsa)
https://biblehub.com/lamsa/psalms/40.htm
6 Sacrifices and offerings thou didst not desire;
but as for me, I now have understanding;
burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come;
in the beginning of the books, it is written of me,
8 I delight to do thy will, O my God;
yea, thy law is within my heart.

Psalm 40 (JPS Tanakh)
https://biblehub.com/jps/psalms/40.htm
7 Sacrifice and meal-offering Thou hast no delight in;
Mine ears hast Thou opened;
Burnt-offering and sin-offering hast Thou not required.
8 Then said I:
'Lo, I am come
With the roll of a book which is prescribed for me;
9 I delight to do Thy will, O my God;
Yea, Thy law is in my inmost parts.'

Psalm 40 (Brenton's Septuagint)
https://biblehub.com/sep/psalms/40.htm
6 (39:6) Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not;
but a body hast thou prepared me:
whole-burnt-offering and sacrifice for sin thou didst not require.
7 (39:7) Then I said, Behold, I come:
in the volume of the book it is written concerning me,
8 (39:8) I desired to do thy will, O my God,
and thy law in the midst of mine heart.

Psalm 39(40) (NETS LXX)
https://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/
specifically the Psalms
PDF
https://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/24-ps-nets.pdf
7(6) Sacrifice and offering you did not want,
but ears you fashioned for me.
Whole burnt offering and one for sin you did not request.
8(7) Then I said, "Look, I have come;
in a scroll of a book it is written of me.
9(8) To do your will, O my God, I desired--
and your law, within my belly."

DSS Psalm 40:  not had among the known DSS fragments
https://archive.org/details/B-001-001-93...salm+40%22

Robert Alter, _The Hebrew Bible: A Translation with Commentary_ (2018)
https://archive.org/details/hebrew-bible...ug+open%22
https://www.amazon.com/Hebrew-Bible-Tran...393292495/
7 Sacrifice and grain offering You do not desire.
You opened ears for me:
for burnt offering and offense offering You do not ask.
Then did I think:
Look, I come with the scroll of the book written for me.
9 To do what pleases You, my God, I desire,
and Your teaching is deep within me.
...
PSALM 40 NOTES
...
2. He bent down toward me and heard my voice.
Generically, this psalm is a hybrid.
These opening words, signaling a prayer already answered, are the gesture of a thanksgiving psalm.
Verses 13-18 are the urgent plea of a psalm of supplication.
In verses 7-11, the speaker assumes a stance resembling that of the prophets.
Indeed, the idea that God wants not sacrifices but truth and adherence to His teaching (verses 7 and 8) is reminiscent of certain famous passages in Isaiah and Micah.
...
7. You opened ears for me.
The phrase literally means, “You dug open ears for [or to]”-- that is, vouchsafed me a new acute power of listening to the divine truth.
In later Hebrew, this idiom karah ‘ozen comes to mean “listen attentively.”
It is also possible to construe this-- because “ears” is not declined in the possessive-- as God’s listening attentively to the speaker.

offense offering.
This is the “sin offering” of the traditional translations.

8. I come / with the scroll of the book written for me.
Some claim that the book is the book of the Torah, which spells out what God requires of man.
It is equally possible, however, that this scroll of the book is a kind of personal-prophetic emblem, a miniature vision of how God dictates His will to the speaker.

9. deep within me.
Literally, “within my bowels.”

=====
Targum Psalm 40
http://targum.info/pss/ps1.htm#_ftnref226
7. You do not want sacrifice and offering;
you have scooped out ears for me _to hear your redemption_;
you have not asked for holocaust and sin offering.
8. Then I said, “Behold,
I have entered _into eternal life,” whenever I occupy myself with_
the scroll of the book _of Torah that_ was written _for my sake_.
9. I desire to do your will, O God;
and your Torah is _contained_ in my deepest self.[226]
[226] _In my deepest self:_ lit., “in the midst of my bowels.”

=====
Glenn David Bauscher, _The Original Aramaic New Testament in Plain English with Psalms & Proverbs (8th edition with notes)_ (2013), 609pp., on 538
https://www.amazon.com/Original-Aramaic-...312086300/
https://www.lulu.com/shop/rev-david-baus...d6m95.html
10:5
* The Hebrew of Psalms 40:6 has... "Ears You have opened for Me".
The Peshitta OT has the same reading.
The Clementine LXX has... "ears You have prepared for Me".
Another LXX version has... "a body You have prepared for Me".
The OT text followed here certainly was not the standard Masoretic nor the Peshitta OT text.
The LXX represents another Hebrew text which was known in the first century AD.
You see it here and there in the quotes from the OT in the Peshitta NT, which quotes are certainly not conformed to any one standard OT text known.

10:7
... The Peshitta OT version is essentially the same as this quotation in the Peshitta NT, with the exception of the verb form in "Behold I come";
there the OT Peshitta has... "Behold, I have come" instead of... "Behold, I come"
and the last verb... "to do", where the OT version has... "to do".
There is also an additional verb at the very end of the OT version... "I delight".
This NT Peshitta verse does not appear to be taken from the Peshitta OT version;
neither does it agree with the Masoretic Hebrew text or the LXX version.
The Greek NT version does appear identical to the LXX of Psalms 40:7...

[DavidFord]

When it was originally written, did Acts 7:43 have:
Moloch?
Malcom/ Malkum/ Malchum?

From what OT textual tradition did Acts 7:43 quote?

Acts 7:43
https://biblehub.com/parallel/acts/7-43.htm
(Berean Literal)
And you took up the tabernacle of Moloch and the star of your god Rephan, the images that you made to worship them;
and I will remove you beyond Babylon.'

(Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
'But you carry the tabernacle of Malcom and the star of The God Rephan, images which you have made to worship.
I shall remove you farther than Babel.'

Acts 7:43
https://dukhrana.com/peshitta/analyze_ve...ize=125%25
(Etheridge) But you took up the tabernacle of Malkum, And the star of the god of Raphan, Images you have made to worship them; I will remove you beyond Babel.
(Murdock) But ye bore the tabernacle of Malchum, and the star of the god Rephon, images which ye had made, that ye might bow down to them.
I will transport you beyond Babylon.

Amos 5:26-27
https://biblehub.com/parallel/amos/5-26.htm
https://biblehub.com/parallel/amos/5-27.htm
(PHBT)
But you did take up the tent of Malkom and Kuun your image, the star that you had made a god for yourselves I shall take you captive far from Darmsuq, says LORD JEHOVAH, God of Hosts his name

(JPS Tanakh)
So shall ye take up Siccuth your king and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.
Therefore will I cause you to go into captivity beyond Damascus, saith He, whose name is the LORD God of hosts.

(Brenton Septuagint)
Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Raephan, the images of them which ye made for yourselves.
And I will carry you away beyond Damascus, saith the Lord, the Almighty God is his name.

Amos 5 (NETS LXX)
https://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/
specifically the Twelve Prophets
PDF
https://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/...e-nets.pdf
26 You even took up the tent of Moloch and the star of your god Raiphan, models of them which you made for yourselves.
27 And I will deport you beyond Damascus, says the Lord-- God the Almighty is his name.

DSS Amos 5:26: not had among the known DSS fragments
https://archive.org/details/B-001-001-93...ew=theater

Targum Jonathan on Amos 5:26-27
https://www.sefaria.org/Targum_Jonathan_...26?lang=bi
וּנְטַלְתּוּן יַת סִכּוּת פַּת כּוּמָרֵכוֹן וְיַת כִּיוּן צַלְמֵיכוֹן כּוֹכַב טַעֲוַתְכוֹן דִי עֲבַדְתּוּן לְכוֹן:
וְאַגְלֵי יַתְכוֹן מֵהָלְאָה לְדַמֶשֶׂק אֲמַר יְיָ אֱלֹהִים צְבָאוֹת שְׁמֵיהּ:

google transliteration:
untaltun yat sikut phat kumarechon veyat khiwn tzalmechon kochav ta'avatchon di avadatun lechon:
ve'agli yatchon mehal'a ledamesaek amar yeyha elohim tzva'ot shemamei:

modified google translate of the Aramaic, which erroneously treats the Aramaic as if it was Hebrew:
And the taking of the tabernacle of the house of the king of the sea
And the setting of the stars of the sky, and the worship of the stars:
And the pillars of the house of Yathchan shall be set from Halah to Damascus.
Said the Lord, whose name is God of armies

=====
Amos 5, in
_The Targum of the Minor Prophets (Aramaic Bible, Vol. 14)_ (1989), 259pp., on 87
https://www.amazon.com/Targum-Minor-Prop...0814654894
https://archive.org/details/targumofminorpro0014unse
https://ebin.pub/the-targum-of-the-minor...34898.html
26. You carried Sikkut your _statue_^41 and Kiyyun your _idol_,^42 your astral _images_^43 which you had made for yourselves.
27. So I will send you into exile beyond Damascus", says _the_ Lord; the God of hosts is his name.

41: MT "your king".
_Tg._ Aramaic _ptkr'_ occurs in Isa 8:21; Zeph 1:5.
In Zeph 1:5 it translates Milcom, the name of the Ammonite deity, but in Isa 8:21, it is a rendering for "king" as here.
For a discussion of _mlk_ as the title of a deity in these texts see now G.C. Heider, _The Cult of Molek: A Reassessment_ (JSOT Suppl. 43 Sheffield, 1985) and the review article of this work by D. Edelman, _JAOS_ 107 (1987) 727-731.
42: For MT "your image"
43: MT "gods".


=====
Pulpit Commentary
https://biblehub.com/amos/5-26.htm
Verse 26. - This verse has occasioned great perplexity to commentators.
The connection with the context, the meaning of some of the terms, and whether the reference is to past, present, or future, are questions which have roused much controversy.
We need not here recapitulate the various opinions which have been held.
It will be sufficient to state what seems to be the simplest and most probable explanation of the passage.
But we must not omit to mention first the explanation adopted by Ewald, Schrader, Farrar, Konig, and others, viz. that this verse refers to the punitive deportation which was to be the people's lot, when they should take their shrines and images with them into captivity.
"So shall ye take (into exile) Sakkuth your king," etc.
But the punishment is foretold in ver. 27; and this verse contrasts their idol worship with the neglected worship of Jehovah (ver. 25).
But ye have borne; and ye bare; καὶ ἀνελάβετε (Septuagint); et portastis (Vulgate).
Ye offered me no pure worship in the wilderness, seeing that ye took false gods with you, and joined their worship with, or substituted it for, mine.
The tabernacle of your Moloch; τὴν σκηνὴν τοῦ Μολόχ (Septuagint); tabernaculum Moloch vestro (Vulgate).
The Hebrew word rendered "tabernacle" (sikkuth), which is found nowhere else, has been variously explained.
Aquila gives συσκιασμούς: Theodotion, "vision," reading the whole sentence thus: Καὶ ἤρατε τὴν ὅρασιν τοῦ Θεοῦ ὑμῶν ὑμῶν ἄστρον τοῦ Θεοῦ ὑμῶν.
Many moderns render, "stake," "column," or "shrine."
Others suppose it to be equivalent to Sakkuth, an Assyrian name for Molech (or Adar); but this is very uncertain (see 'Studien und Kritiken.' 1874, p. 887), said [?] the parallelism requires the word to be an appellative and not a proper name.
It most probably means "shrine," a portable shrine, like those spoken of in Acts 19:24 in connection with the worship of Diana.
The Syriac and Arabic versions call it "tent," and thus the reproach stands forth emphatically that, instead of, or in conjunction with, the true tabernacle, they bore aloft, as if proud of their apostasy, the tabernacle of a false god.
Such shrines were used by the Egyptians, according to Herodotus (2:63, where see Rawlinson's note) and Diod. Sic. (1:97).
Many such may be seen in the Egyptian room of the British Museum.
Keil quotes Drumann, 'On the Rosetta Inscription,' p. 211, "These were small chapels, generally gilded and ornamented with flowers and in other ways, intended to hold a small idol when processions were made, and to be carried or driven about with it."
Hence we must look to Egypt as the source of this idolatry.
Moloch, though sanctioned by the LXX. and St. Stephen (Acts 7:43), is a mistranslation.
De Rossi, indeed, mentions that one Hebrew manuscript gives Moloch, but the received reading is Melkekem, which is confirmed by Symmachus and Theodotion, who have τοῦ βασιλέως ὑμῶν, and by the Syriac.
The translation, therefore, should run, "Ye took up the shrine of your king," i.e. of him whom ye made your king in the place of Jehovah, meaning some stellar divinity.
And Chiun your images; καὶ τὸ ἄστρον τοῦ θεοῦ ὑμῶν Ῥαμφάν, "and the star of your god Raephan "(Septuagint); et imaginem idolorum vestrorum; literally, the kiyyun of your images.
The parallelism again requires us to take this unknown word as an appellative; and according to its probable derivation, its meaning is "pedestal," or "framework," that on which the image stood.
The Greek rendering is, as Keil thinks, owing to a false reading of the unpointed text, in old Hebrew kaph and resh being easily confounded, and vau and pe.
Theodotion considered the word a common noun, translating it by ἀμαύρωσιν.
It is probably a mere coincidence that in some Assyrian inscriptions the name Kairan occurs as that of a deity, who is identified with Saturn; that the Egyptians (from whom the Israelites must have derived the notion) ever acknowledged such a deity is quite unproved.
St. Stephen merely quotes the Textus Receptus of his day, which was close enough to the original for his argument.
The star of your god.
These words are in loose apposition with the preceding, and are equivalent to "your star god," or the star whom ye worship as god.
Whether some particular star is meant, or whether the sun is the deity signified, cannot be determined, although the universal prevalence of the worship of sun gods in Egypt makes the latter supposition very probable.
St. Stephen puts the sin in a general form: "God gave them up to serve the host of heaven" (Acts 7:42; comp. Deuteronomy 4:19; Deuteronomy 17:3).
Which ye made to yourselves.
This was the crime, self-will, desertion of the appointed way for devices of their own invention.

=====
Amos 5, in
_The Book of the 12 Prophets According to the Syriac Peshitta Version with English Translation_, on 261 of the PDF (with the typed number 95 at the bottom of the page)
https://gorgiaspress.com/the-book-of-the...ranslation
https://ebin.pub/qdownload/the-syriac-pe...01777.html
PDF
https://archive.org/download/PeshittaOld...ophets.pdf
26 But you carried
the tabernacle of Malcom
and Saturn your idol,
the star which you made your god.
27 I will lead you away captive from Damascus,
says the Lord, whose name is God the mighty.

=====
Amos 5 (NABRE)
https://biblehub.com/nabre/amos/5.htm
26 Yet you will carry away Sukuth, your king,
and Kaiwan, your star-image,
your gods that you have made for yourselves,
27 As I exile you beyond Damascus,
says the Lord,
whose name is the God of hosts.

NABRE footnote on Amos
https://biblehub.com/nabre/amos/footnotes.htm
[5:26] Sukuth:  probably a hebraized form of Assyro-Babylonian Shukudu (“the Arrow”), a name of Sirius, the brightest star in the night sky.
It was associated with the god Ninurta, who was widely worshiped in Mesopotamia.
According to 2 Kgs 17:30 the cult of Sirius was introduced into Samaria by deportees from Babylonia.
Kaiwan:  a hebraized form of an Akkadian name for the planet Saturn, also worshiped as a deity in Mesopotamia.

[DavidFord]

From what textual stream did Mark 7:6-7 quote?

Mark 7 (Berean Literal)
https://biblehub.com/blb/mark/7.htm
6 And He said to them,
“Isaiah prophesied rightly concerning you hypocrites,
as it has been written:
‘This people honors Me with the lips,
but their heart is kept far away from Me;
7 and they worship Me in vain,
teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’

Mark 7 (Bauscher)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/mark/7.htm
6 But he said to them,
“Isaiah the Prophet prophesied beautifully of you impostors,
just as it is written:
'This people honors me with its lips,
but their heart is very far from Me.'
7 'And in vain they pay reverence to me
as they teach doctrines of commandments of the sons of men.'

Isaiah 29:13 (JPS Tanakh)
https://biblehub.com/jps/isaiah/29.htm
And the Lord said:
Forasmuch as this people draw near,
And with their mouth and with their lips do honour Me,
But have removed their heart far from Me,
And their fear of Me is a commandment of men learned by rote;

Isaiah 29:13 (Robert Alter, searching for:  lips heart
on
_The Hebrew Bible: A Translation with Commentary, Volume 3_
https://books.google.com/books?id=S75SDwAAQBAJ&
And the Master said,
Inasmuch as this people approached with its mouth
and with its lips honored Me
but kept its heart far from Me,
and their reverence for Me was a commandment of men learned by rote,

Isaiah 29:13 (Young's Literal)
https://biblehub.com/ylt/isaiah/29.htm
And the Lord saith:
Because drawn near hath this people, with its mouth,
And with its lips they have honoured Me,
And its heart it hath put far off from Me,
And their fear of Me is --
A precept of men is taught!

Isaiah 29:13 (based on interlinear)
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/isaiah/29-13.htm
Therefore said Yahweh,
Because inasmuch as draw near this people with their mouths
and with their lips honor Me
but their hearts have removed far from Me
and is their fear toward Me by the commandment of men taught

LXX Isaiah 29:13 (Brenton)
https://biblehub.com/sep/isaiah/29.htm
And the Lord has said,
This people draw nigh to me with their mouth,
and they honour me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me:
but in vain do they worship me,
teaching the commandments and doctrines of men.

LXX Isaiah 29:13 (NETS)
https://archive.org/details/lxxnets/00-front-nets/
https://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/
PDF:  https://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/...s-nets.pdf
The Lord said:
These people draw near me;
they honor me with their lips,
while their heart is far from me,
and in vain do they worship me,
teaching human precepts and teachings.

LXX Isaiah 29:13 (Swete)
https://biblehub.com/sepd/isaiah/29.htm
https://archive.org/details/oldtestament...8/mode/2up
καὶ εἶπεν Κύριος Ἐγγίζει μοι ὁ λαὸς οὗτος ἐν τῷ στόματι αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐν τοῖς χείλεσιν αὐτῶν τιμῶσίν με, ἡ δὲ καρδία αὐτῶν πόρρω ἀπέχει ἀπ᾽ ἐμοῦ· μάτην δὲ σέβονταί με διδάσκοντες ἐντάλματα ἀνθρώπων καὶ διδασκαλίας.

DSS Isaiah 29:13
_The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible_ (1999), 649pp., on 313
https://archive.org/stream/B-001-001-932...2_djvu.txt
And the Lord said,
Inasmuch as this people draw near to honor me with their mouth
and with their lips,
but have removed their hearts far from me,
and _fear of me_^526 has been _like a human commandment_^527 that has been taught them;
526: 1QIsa^a. _their fear of me_ MT.
527: 1QIsa^a. _a human commandment_ MT.

Isaiah 29:13 (Peshitta Tanakh)
_The Peshitta Holy Bible Translated_ (2019) by Bauscher
https://biblehub.com/hpbt/isaiah/29.htm
https://www.amazon.com/Peshitta-Holy-Bib...359404251/
And LORD JEHOVAH said:
"Because this people approaches me with its mouth
and by its lips it honors me
and its heart is far from me,
and their worship of me was by the commandment and in the teaching of man

Targum Isaiah 29:13
_The Chaldee Paraphrase on the Prophet Isaiah [by Jonathan b. Uzziel]_ tr. by C.W.H. Pauli (1871), 226pp., on 94
https://archive.org/stream/chaldeeparaph...g_djvu.txt
Wherefore the Lord hath said:
Because I am magnified by the mouth of this people,
and with their lips they do honour me,
but their heart is far from my fear,
and their fear towards me is as the commandment of men teaching _them_:

=====
Nothing about cave 4 for DSS Isaiah 29:13 is mentioned in my DSS copy.

DSS Isaiah 29:13
_The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible_ (1999), 649pp., on 313
https://archive.org/stream/B-001-001-932...2_djvu.txt
And the Lord said,
Inasmuch as this people draw near to honor me with their mouth
and with their lips,
but have removed their hearts far from me,
and _fear of me_^526 has been _like a human commandment_^527 that has been taught them;
526: 1QIsa^a. _their fear of me_ MT.
527: 1QIsa^a. _a human commandment_ MT.

_The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible_ (1999), 649pp., on 269-270
https://archive.org/stream/B-001-001-932...2_djvu.txt
Because Isaiah is a lengthy book virtually preserved in its entirety in 1QIsa^a, and since there are so many Isaiah scrolls, for the translation of this book and accompanying variants a somewhat different approach has been taken here than with other books in The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible. The translation that follows is consistently from 1QIsa^a, with the readings from the other scrolls shown in the footnotes. Some of the insignificant variants (usually involving spelling) are not noted. Moreover, in this translation the Septuagint is sometimes, but not always, collated for variant readings. The main reason for this is that Isaiah is mainly poetry,^c and the Septuagint contains a rather free Greek translation of the unvocalized Hebrew poetry; it is thus often difficult to tell exactly which Hebrew form is being translated. However, most of the more significant Septuagint variants are recorded.
c: However, text was subsequently written down in prose format in the scrolls as well as in the Hebrew text used by the Septuagint translator(s).

=====
Isaiah 29:13 (JPS Tanakh)
But have removed their heart far from Me,
And their fear of Me is a commandment of men learned by rote;’
vs
LXX Isaiah 29:13 (NETS)
while their heart is far from me,
and in vain do they worship me,
teaching human precepts and teachings.'”

“But have removed their heart far from Me” is similar to
“while their heart is far from me.”

“And their fear of Me” is similar to
“and… they worship me.”

“A commandment of men learned by rote” is similar to
“teaching human precepts and teachings.”

Cave 4 showed there was another textual stream for certain books, whose renditions were captured in the LXX but absent from the Masoretic.

=====
It seems to me a word(s) is missing where the dash is.
This doesn’t read well: “their fear of Me is —
A precept of men is taught!”

Isaiah 29:13 (Young’s Literal)
https://biblehub.com/ylt/isaiah/29.htm
And the Lord saith:
Because drawn near hath this people, with its mouth,
And with its lips they have honoured Me,
And its heart it hath put far off from Me,
And their fear of Me is —
A precept of men is taught!

=====
_The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible_ (1999), 649pp., a paragraph on 636
https://archive.org/stream/B-001-001-932...2_djvu.txt
Before the discovery of copies of the book of Tobit among the Dead Sea Scrolls, scholars debated whether the tale was originally written in Greek or perhaps a Semitic language (Hebrew or Aramaic).
As is often the case with new discoveries, the Dead Sea Scrolls answered the original question but raised another.
Of the five scrolls uncovered in Cave 4, four are written in Aramaic while one is in Hebrew.
The debate has already begun as to which represents the _original_ tongue.
Another important discussion concerns the date of the writing.
Those experts who argued before the Qumran findings for the first to third centuries CE have now been silenced, because the oldest manuscript-- 4QTobit^d-- dates to 100 BCE (though the tale was probably composed as early at the late third century BCE).

[DavidFord]

"Titus was a Greek. Galatians 2:3″
Actually, he was Aramean.

https://www.dukhrana.com
Galatians 2:3 – Maar zelfs Titus, die bij mij was en Arameeër is, werd niet gedwongen om zich te laten besnijden.
Arameeër – dit is de lezing van de Aramese Peshitta. De lezing van de Griekse NA28, MHT en TR luidt: ‘Griek’.

google translate:
Galatians 2:3 – But even Titus, who was with me, an Aramean, was not compelled to be circumcised.
Aramean – this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta.
The reading of the Greek NA28, MHT and TR is: ‘Greek’.

When the Aramaic NT got translated into Greek, references to Arameans got turned into references to Greeks.
Turning "pagan" into "Greek" resulted in at-least 1 internal contradiction in the Greek NT translation.

===============================
Do you think the woman mentioned below:
wasn't a Jew?  
spoke Greek?
was a Canaanite?

Mark 7 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/mark/7.htm
25 In fact, as soon as she heard about him [Jesus], a woman whose little daughter was possessed by an impure spirit came and fell at his feet.
26 The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia.
She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.

Mark 7:26 (Peshitta Holy Bible)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/mark/7.htm
But she was a pagan woman from Phoenicia of Syria,
and she was begging him to cast out the demon from her daughter.

Matthew 15 (Berean Standard)
https://biblehub.com/bsb/matthew/15.htm
21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the district of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came to Him, crying out,
“Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me!
My daughter is miserably possessed by a demon.”

===============================
"Little Liddell definition was that anyone who spoke Greek and wasn’t Jewish was considered to be Greek by other Greeks"
Did people into Judaism have that same conception of what a "Greek" was?

Do you presently think that Titus was a:
Greek?
Aramean?

Do you presently think that the Syro-Phoenician woman who came to Jesus for help about her demon-influenced daughter was:
Greek?
Aramean?

Do you think Galatians 3:28 originally had:
Greek?
Aramean?

https://www.dukhrana.com
Galatians 3:28 - Er is (daarin) geen Jood of Arameeër, geen slaaf of vrije, geen mannelijk of vrouwelijk, want jullie zijn allen één in Jezus Christus.
      Arameeër - dit is de lezing van de Aramese Peshitta. De lezing van de Griekse NA28, MHT en TR luidt: ‘Griek’. Alle 22 keren dat wij in de Aramese Peshitta het woord ‘Arameeër’ lezen, lezen wij in het Griekse NT ‘Griek’ of ‘Grieks’, behalve in Lk. 4:27 waar ‘Arameeër’, niet als ‘Griek’, maar als ‘Syriër’ wordt vertaald, wat een correcte vertaling is, want Syrië is eigenlijk ‘Aram’. In het woordenboek van Jastrow (‹Hebrew Aramaic Targum Dictionary›) wordt opgemerkt dat de naam ‘Arameeër’ soms als een schuilnaam voor een Romein werd gebruikt.
      Jezus Christus - dit is de lezing van de Aramese Peshitta. De lezing van de Griekse NA28, MHT en TR luidt: ‘Christus Jezus’.

google translate:
Galatians 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Aramean, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female; for you are all one in Jesus Christ.
Aramean - this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta.
The reading of the Greek NA28, MHT and TR is: ‘Greek’.
All 22 times that we read the word ‘Aramean’ in the Aramaic Peshitta, we read ‘Greek’ or ‘Greek’ in the Greek NT, except in Lk. 4:27 where ‘Aramean’ is translated not as ‘Greek’, but as ‘Syrian’, which is a correct translation, because Syria is actually ‘Aram’.
In the dictionary of Jastrow (‹Hebrew Aramaic Targum Dictionary›) it is noted that the name ‘Aramean’ was sometimes used as a pseudonym for a Roman.
Jesus Christ - this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta.
The reading of the Greek NA28, MHT and TR is: ‘Christ Jesus’.

"Yes, all those were possible"
If someone can convert to Judaism and thereby become a Jew, how can being a Jew be a racial thing?

"a few people like Dr Ammon Hillman who’ve had several exorcisms performed on themself. He’s big into the Ancient Greek pagan languages and then applies to the NT κοινη; which that is where the mistake occurs"
What "mistake" is that?  
Do you think demons exist?

[DavidFord]

Which if any scenes in Matthew do you consider fictional midrash?
Do you think Isaiah 7:14, Micah 5:2, Zechariah 3:8, Isaiah 11:1, and/or Isaiah 53 prophesied anything?

Isaiah 7:14 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/isaiah/7-14.htm
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign:
The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son,
and will call him Immanuel.

Micah 5:2 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/micah/5-2.htm
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”

Zechariah 3:8 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/zechariah/3-8.htm
“’Listen, High Priest Joshua, you and your associates seated before you,
who are men symbolic of things to come:
I am going to bring my servant, the Branch.

Isaiah 11:1 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/isaiah/11-1.htm
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/isaiah/11-1.htm
A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch [n-tz-r] [5342 wə·nê·ṣer וְנֵ֖צֶר and a Branch] will bear fruit.

[DavidFord]

"Ask scholars of JUDAISM if those are Messianic prophecies"

Targum Jonathan on Isaiah 11:1-10
https://www.sefaria.org/Targum_Jonathan_....1?lang=bi
And a king shall come forth from the sons of Jesse,
and from his children's children the Messiah shall be anointed.

And there shall dwell upon him the spirit of prophecy from before the Lord:
the spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the spirit of counsel and might,
the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.

He shall bring him to the fear of the Lord:
and he shall not judge according to the sight of His eyes,
neither reprove after the hearing of his ears.

But with righteousness shall he judge the poor,
and reprove with faithfulness the needy of the earth;
and he shall smite the sinners of the earth with the word of his mouth,
and with the speech of His lips he shall slay Armillus the wicked.

And the righteous shall be round about him,
and the workers of faith shall draw nigh unto him.

In the days of the Messiah of Israel
peace shall be multiplied in the earth.
The wolf shall dwell with the lamb,
and the leopard shall dwell with the kid;
and the calf, and the lion, and the fatling together;
and a little sucking child shall be leading them.

And the cow and the bear shall feed together,
their young ones shall lie down together;
and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp,
and the weaned child shall put forth his hand on the sight of the pupil of the eyes of the cockatrice.

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain,
for the earth shall be
full of the knowledge of the fear of the Lord,
as the waters cover the sea.

And there shall be at that time a son of the son of Jesse,
who shall stand for an ensign of the people;
kings shall obey him,
and the place of his dwelling shall be in glory.

=====================
Targum Micah 5
_The Aramaic Bible: The Targum of the Minor Prophets_ (1989), 259pp., on 122
https://www.amazon.com/Targum-Minor-Prop...814654894/
https://archive.org/details/targumofmino...=bethlehem
Page 122
1. And you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah,
you who were too small to be numbered among the thousands of the house of Judah,
from you shall come forth before me the anointed One,
to exercise dominion over Israel,
he whose name was mentioned
from of old,
from ancient times.
2. Then they shall be handed over in the time when she who is in labour gives birth,
and the rest of their brethren shall rely upon the children of Israel.
3. He shall arise and rule with might from the Lord,
by the greatness of the name of the Lord his God;
and they shall be gathered in from among their exiles,
for now his name shall be great to the ends of the earth.
4. Then it shall be peace for us. ...

=====================
Targum Zechariah 3
_The Aramaic Bible: The Targum of the Minor Prophets_ (1989), 259pp., on 192-193
https://archive.org/details/targumofmino...surrection
Page 192
6. And the angel of the Lord charged Joshua, saying,
7. "Thus says the Lord of hosts,
'If you walk in paths which are good before me,
and if you keep the charge of my Memra,
then you shall judge those who serve in my Sanctuary
and you shall have charge of my courts,
and at the resurrection of the dead I will raise you to life
and will give you feet to walk among these seraphim.
8. Hear now, Joshua the high priest, you
and your companions who sit before you,
for they are men who are worthy that a sign be performed for them,
for behold, I will bring my servant the anointed One,
and he shall be revealed.
9. For behold, the stone which I have set before Joshua--
upon one stone are seven facets;
behold, I will reveal its facets,'
says the Lord of hosts,
'and I will remove the sin of that land in one day.'

[DavidFord]

"Were 'Paul’s churches' in Greek speaking areas?"
I dunno.
Even if "Paul’s churches" were "in Greek speaking areas," that doesn't necessarily mean that letters were sent in Greek to those churches.
Also, even if the letters were sent in Greek to those churches, that doesn't necessarily mean that Greek was the original language of composition for those letters.

"Was there an Aramaic Tanakh at that time?"
Maybe.

https://britannica.com/topic/Peshitta
Of the vernacular versions of the Bible, the Old Testament Peshitta is second only to the Greek Septuagint in antiquity, dating from probably the 1st and 2nd centuries ce.
The earliest parts in Old Syriac are thought to have been translated from Hebrew or Aramaic texts by Jewish Christians at Edessa, although the Old Testament Peshitta was later revised according to Greek textual principles.

https://search.brave.com/search?q=When+d...a2d0b3f82b
The Peshitta Old Testament is believed to have been translated into Aramaic from Biblical Hebrew, probably in the 2nd century CE.
The earliest dated Biblical manuscript of the Peshitta Old Testament is from A.D. 464, which includes parts of the Pentateuch (Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) written in the city of Amid, Assyria.^4
4: http://peshitta.org/initial/peshitta.html

========================================
"his native tongue was Aramaic"
I agree.
If you were to write a composition, in which language do you think you'd be most likely to write it?  (your native tongue?)

Acts 26 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=NIV
12 “On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests.
13 About noon, King Agrippa, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions.
14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,[a]
‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?
It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’
a: Or _Hebrew_

"As a Pharisee, he was likely bilingual"
In what languages?

Acts 21 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=NIV
37-38 As the soldiers were about to take Paul into the barracks, he asked the commander,
“May I say something to you?”
“Do you speak Greek?” he replied. “Aren’t you the Egyptian who started a revolt and led four thousand terrorists out into the wilderness some time ago?”
39 Paul answered,
“I am a Jew, from Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no ordinary city.
Please let me speak to the people.”
40 After receiving the commander’s permission, Paul stood on the steps and motioned to the crowd.
When they were all silent, he said to them in Aramaic[a]:
a: Or possibly _Hebrew_; also in 22:2

Acts 22
1 “Brothers and fathers, listen now to my defense.”
2 When they heard him speak to them in Aramaic, they became very quiet.

[DavidFord]

The footnotes to The Passion translation of the New Testament contain many references to the Aramaic.

[DavidFord]

At which point, if ever, did practitioners of Judaism first believe that Isaiah 53 was Messianic?

Targum Isaiah 53
_The Chaldee Paraphrase on the Prophet Isaiah [by Jonathan b. Uzziel]_ tr. by C.W.H. Pauli (1871), 226pp., on 182-185
https://archive.org/stream/chaldeeparaph...g_djvu.txt
Chapter LIII.
1 Who hath believed this our report?
and to whom is now the power of the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 The righteous shall be great before Him,
behold, like branches that bud;
and like a tree which sends forth its roots by the streams of water,
thus shall the generation of the just multiply in the land,
which hath need of Him.
3 His visage shall not be the visage of a common person,
neither His fear the fear of a plebeian;
but a holy brightness shall be His brightness,
that every one who seeth Him shall contemplate Him.

4 Although He shall be in contempt;
yet He shall cut off the glory of all the wicked,
they shall be weak and wretched.
Lo, we are in contempt and not esteemed,
as a man of pain and appointed to sickness,
and as if He had removed the face of His Shekinah from us.
5 Therefore He shall pray for our sins,
and our iniquities for His sake shall be forgiven us;
for we are considered crushed, smitten of the Lord, and afflicted.
6 He shall build the house of the sanctuary,
which has been profaned on account of our sins;
He was delivered over on account of our iniquities,
and through His doctrine peace shall be multiplied upon us,
and through the teaching of His words our sins shall be forgiven us.

7 All we like sheep have been scattered,
every one of us has turned to his own way;
it pleased the Lord to forgive the sins of all of us for His sake.
8 He shall pray and He shall be answered,
yea, before He shall open His mouth.
He shall be heard;
He shall deliver over the mighty of the nations as a lamb to the slaughter,
and like a sheep before her shearers is dumb,
none shall in His presence open his mouth, or speak a word.

9 He shall gather our captives from affliction and pain,
and who shall be able to narrate the wonderful works
which shall be done for us in His days?
He shall remove the rule of the nations from the land of Israel,
the sins which my people have committed have come upon them.
10 And He shall deliver the wicked into hell,
and the riches of treasures which they got by violence unto the death of Abaddon,
that they who commit sin shall not remain,
and that they should not speak folly with their mouth.
11 And it was the pleasure of the Lord to refine
and to purify the remnant of His people,
in order to cleanse their souls from sin,
that they might see the kingdom of their Messiah,
that their sons and daughters might multiply,
and prolong their days,
and those that keep the law of the Lord shall prosper through His pleasure.

12 He shall deliver their souls from the servitude of the nations,
they shall see the vengeance upon their enemies;
they shall be satisfied with the spoil of their kings.
By His wisdom He shall justify the righteous,
in order to make many to keep the law,
and He shall pray for their sins.
13 Therefore I will divide to Him the spoil of many people,
and the treasures of strong fortifications;
He shall divide the spoil;
because He has delivered His life unto death,
and He shall make the rebellious to keep the law;
He shall pray for the sins of many,
and as for the transgressors,
each shall be pardoned for His sake.

Cf.

Bart Ehrman, _Jesus:  Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium_ (1999), 274pp., on 252
amazon.com/Jesus-Apocalyptic-Prophet-New-Millennium/dp/019512474X/
https://archive.org/details/jesusapocaly...+occurs%22
Page 252
6 As we'll see in ch.13, Christians later interpreted texts like Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 in reference to the Messiah.
But it should be noted that the term “messiah” never occurs in these texts, and that no Jew prior to Christianity, so far as we know, ever understood them to refer to the future Messiah.

==================================
https://www.sots.ac.uk/wiki/targums/
The word targum (plural targumim or, in English, targums), meaning “translation,” can be applied to any translation, but is used specifically to designate the Aramaic version of the Bible.

Origins
The Targumim have their origin at about the turn of the eras BCE-CE, a time when Hebrew was becoming less widely understood than Aramaic among Jewish congregations.
In synagogue worship the practice arose of giving an oral translation into Aramaic, following the reading of each verse of the Torah and also the Haphtarah, the set reading from the Prophets, though it is possible that the activity of translation began at an earlier stage in the school and academy to meet an educational need.
These translations were not always literal, but at times brought in aggada (traditional stories based on the biblical text) and midrashic material, and might have more of the character of paraphrase than translation.

Written Targums
Targum was at first a purely oral activity, but it was not long before written targumim began to emerge.
Targum Onqelos soon became widely accepted as the most authoritative Targum to the Pentateuch, and enjoyed an official status.
It is likely that Targum Onqelos originated in Palestine in the 1st or 2nd century CE, and was then taken to Babylon, where it underwent a thorough revision in about the 4th-5th centuries CE, before returning to Palestine at a later stage.
...
To the Prophets
The Targum to the Former Prophets (Joshua to Kings) and Latter Prophets (Isaiah to Malachi) is known as Targum Jonathan.
It probably originated in Palestine at about the same time as Onqelos, and then underwent revision in Babylonia, where it was regarded as authoritative and became official.

[DavidFord]

Samson Levey, _The Messiah: An Aramaic Interpretation: The Messianic Exegesis of the Targum_ (1974), 180pp., on XVII
https://www.amazon.com/Messiah-Aramaic-I...878204024/
https://archive.org/details/messiaharama...q=sporadic
Page n20
There are sporadic references to the Messianic hope in the Hebrew Scriptures, the earliest of any significance being those of Isaiah 9:6 ff. and 11:1 ff., born of the Assyrian crisis, 721-701 B.C.E.
Subsequent crises in the history of Israel such as the Exile, and the persecutions under Antiochus and Rome, gave impetus to the Messiah idea, to the point where it became a vital part of Jewish doctrine, with a prayer for the advent of the Messiah included in the daily liturgy as one of the Eighteen Benedictions, whose origins go back to the third century, B.C.E., and which was redacted during the end of the first century, C.E.

======================
Richard Carrier, _On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt_ (2014)
https://www.amazon.com/Historicity-Jesus...909697494/
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/24714
We might have evidence of a strand of that prior tradition in the early-first-century Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziel on Isaiah 53 (a kind of paraphrastic commentary in Aramaic; Jonathan ben Uzziel was traditionally a student of Hillel, who died c. 10 CE, and a contemporary of Shammai, who died c. 30 CE), which explicitly identifies the suffering servant there as the Christ-but otherwise transforms the narrative to suppress or downplay the element of his dying.
But anyone who read this Targum, and then the original Hebrew (or Greek), could put two and two together:
'this servant is the messiah'
plus
'this servant dies and is buried and then exalted'
=
'the messiah dies and is buried and then exalted',
the very doctrine we see in the Talmud, which just happens to be the same doctrine adopted by Christians.
This Targum was multiply tampered with over the years, however (see Bruce Chilton, _The Glory of Israel: The Theology and Provenience of the Isaiah Targum_ [Sheffield: JSOT Press, 1982], e.g., p. 94), so nothing conclusive can be decided by it (even though, again, it is unlikely Jews would change the Targum to make Isaiah 53 messianic after Christianity started using Isaiah 53 to support their cause), although Jintae Kim makes a case for the reading being early in 'Targum Isaiah 53 and the New Testament Concept of Atonement', _Journal of Greco-Roman Christianity and Judaism_ 5 (2008), pp. 81-98.
_OHJ_, p. 75

[DavidFord]

"The OT apocalypse prophecies don’t fit into the NT and history after the birth of Jesus"
Does that "don’t fit into" include this?:

Daniel 9 (Brenton's Septuagint)
https://biblehub.com/sep/daniel/9.htm
24 Seventy weeks have been determined upon thy people, and upon the holy city,
for sin to be ended,
and to seal up transgressions,
and to blot out the iniquities,
and to make atonement for iniquities,
and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
and to seal the vision and the prophet,
and to anoint the Most Holy.
25 And thou shalt know and understand, that
from the going forth of the command for the answer
and for the building of Jerusalem until Christ the prince
there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks;
and then the time shall return,
and the street shall be built, and the wall,
and the times shall be exhausted.

26 And after the sixty-two weeks,
the anointed one shall be destroyed,
and there is no judgment in him:
and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
with the prince that is coming:
they shall be cut off with a flood,
and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed
he shall appoint the city to desolations.
27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many:
and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away:
and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations;
and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

"Son of Man = a gentile king"
Including here?:

Daniel 7:13 (Brenton's Septuagint)
https://biblehub.com/sep/daniel/7.htm
13 I beheld in the night vision,
and, lo, one coming with the clouds of heaven as the Son of man,
and he came on to the Ancient of days,
and was brought near to him.
14 And to him was given the dominion, and the honour, and the kingdom;
and all nations, tribes, and languages, shall serve him:
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom shall not be destroyed.

[DavidFord]

Samson Levey, _The Messiah:  An Aramaic Interpretation:  The Messianic Exegesis of the Targum_ (1974), 180pp., on 31, 102, 141
https://archive.org/details/messiaharama...?q=sparing
https://archive.org/details/messiaharama...assages%22
Page 31
Targum Onkelos is most sparing in its Messianic exegesis, and has Messianic references only to
Gen. 49:10-12 and
Num. 24:17-20, 23-24.

Page 102
Targum Jonathan presents Messianic interpretations in the following passages:
I Samuel 2:7-10, 35;
II Samuel 22:28-32; 23:1-5;
I Kings 5:13;
Isaiah 4:1-6; 9:5-6; 10:24-27; 11:1-16; 14:29-30; 16:1-5; 28:5-6; 42:1-9; 43:10; 52:13-53:12;

Jeremiah 23:1-8; 30:8-11; 33:13-22, 25-26;
Ezekiel 17:22-24; 34:20-31; 37:21-28;
Hosea 2:2; 3:3-5; 14:5-8;
Micah 4:8; 5:1-4;
Habakkuk 3:17-18;
Zechariah 3:8; 4:7; 6:12-13; 10:4.

Page 141
Messianic interpretations are found in the following passages:
Psalms 18:28-32; 21:1-8; 45:1-18; 61:7-9; 72:1-20; 80:15-18; 89:51-52; 132:11-18;
Song of Songs 1:8, 17; 4:5; 7:4; 7:12-8:4;
Ruth 1:1; 3:15;
Lamentations 2:22; 4:22;
Ecclesiastes 1:11; 7:24;
Esther II 1:1;
I Chronicles 3:24.

[DavidFord]

Targum Isaiah 52
_The Chaldee Paraphrase on the Prophet Isaiah [by Jonathan b. Uzziel]_ tr. by C.W.H. Pauli (1871), 226pp., on 181-182
https://archive.org/details/chaldeeparap...q=extolled
Chapter LII.  …
13 Behold, my servant the Messiah shall prosper.
He shall be exalted and extolled,
and He shall be very strong.
14 As the house of Israel
_anxiously_ hoped for Him many days,
(which was poor among the nations ;
their appearance and their brightness
being worse than that of the sons of men : )
15 Thus shall He scatter many nations;
before Him kings shall keep silence :
they shall put their hands upon their mouths,
for that which had not been told them
shall they see:
and _that_ which they had not heard
shall they consider.

Jintae Kim, "Targum Isaiah 53 and the New Testament Concept of Atonement" (2008)
https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/v...s_fac_pubs
Before examining these passages, a brief statement concerning the antiquity of the tradition in Targum Isaiah is in order.
Targum Isaiah is usually considered part of the Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziel, who lived in the first century BCE, but the dating of the Targum cannot be exactly determined, since the Talmud assigns some portions of it to Joseph ben Chija (c. 300 CE).^6
The text now extant is presumably the result of an editorial process.

It is primarily Chilton’s contribution that identified the two-tier editorial process of Targum Isaiah.^7
Chilton compared the exegesis incorporated in Targum Isaiah with departures from the Hebrew text evidenced in the LXX, the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha, the scrolls of Qumran, the New Testament, and the rabbinic literature, and concluded that targumic traditions were incorporated within an exegetical framework, a version of Isaiah in Aramaic composed by a meturgeman who flourished between 70 and 135 CE.
That work, according to Chilton, was completed by another meturgeman, associated with Joseph ben Chija.

Chilton makes an important point:
‘Within that early framework, materials were incorporated which appear to reflect the interpretations of earlier periods, including the period of Jesus.’^8
There is much evidence that the translation tradition preserved in _Targum Isaiah_ is very old.
Jeremias provides examples that point to the antiquity of _Targ. Isa_. 53:

"Isa. 6:10.  the HT reads: ...
The Tg. transl. very differently: ..., ‘and they shall be forgiven’;
... (‘to heal’) is confused with ... (‘to remit’), Schl. Mk. on 4:12.
This version of the text is very old, for it appears in sy^p :  ...
and Mk. 4:12: ... 
(cf. T.W. Manson, _The Teaching of Jesus_ [1948], 77…).
As concerns Is. 53 in particular, it is easy with the help of LXX, Peshitta, 'A, Σ, Θ, to give many instances of the antiquity of the text preserved in the Tg.
A few examples may be offered:  ..."

...
There are also evidences from Qumran that indicate the antiquity of _Targum Isaiah_.
Of particular importance are two witnesses that are directly related to _Targum Isaiah_ and four others that are indirectly related:

(1) the messianic interpretation of Targ. Isa. 52.13 and 53.10 is paralleled by an interpretive alteration of the Hebrew text in 1QIsa^a 52.14.^10
(2) In place of the Hebrew ... in Isa. 53.10, the targumist seems to have read a similar verb form ... as attested in an Isaiah scroll from Qumran (1QIsa^a 53.10).

(3) Minute remains of both Targum Leviticus (4QtgLev) and Targum Job (4QtgJob; 11QtgJob) were discovered in Qumran caves 4 and 11.
J.H. Charlesworth argues on the basis of this that
‘it is now clear that the earliest traditions in the other, but much later, targums must be included in an assessment of early Judaism’.^11

(4) The Tannaitic authorities (_b. Šab_. 115a) state the antiquity of written Targum.
According to Churgin,
‘the official Targumim were in a definite shape in the time of R. Akiba’ (second century CE), and
‘Certain traces in the Targum carry unmistakable evidence of a Babylonian re-cast, which was, however, of a very limited scope’, and ‘the substance was left untouched’.^12

(5) The author of the Habakkuk Scroll seems to have borrowed his interpretation of Hab. 1.6 directly from the Targum to the Prophets.^13
(6) There is evidence for Targum Jonathan at the time of Josephus.^14
...
_Targum Isaiah_ agrees with the LXX in its handling of illnesses as transgressions.
The LXX renders the Hebrew word ... with the Greek ... and interprets the whole verse in terms of the Servant bearing the sins of the unnamed ‘we’.
Furthermore, this understanding of illness as sin is also found in Mk 4.12, which follows Targ. Isa. 6.10, and this implies the antiquity of the tradition.^19
...
10. W.H. Brownlee, ‘The Servant of the Lord in the Qumran Scrolls’, _BASOR_ 132 (1953), pp. 8-15 (11).
The variant is found in 1QIsa^a 52.14, which may be translated
‘As many were astonished at you—
I so anointed (...) his appearance beyond anyone (else),
and his form beyond that of (other) sons of men.’
The difference between ... in 1QIsa^a 52.14 and ... in the MT is only one consonant.
As suggested by Brownlee, the variant reading cannot be correct since it is not suited to the context; rather, it is a pun upon the word ... (‘marred’), which was made for the purpose of interpretation by adding a single Hebrew letter yod (y).
This is the clearest case of alteration for the purpose of giving the Servant a messianic interpretation.

11. J.H. Charlesworth, _The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha_ (2 vols.; New York: Doubleday, 1983), I and II, p. xxvii.
...
19. Seidelin, ‘Ebed Jahwe’, p. 212 n. 55;
Manson, _Teaching of Jesus_, p. 78;
Black, _Aramaic Approach_, pp. 213-14;
B. Chilton, ‘Four Types of Comparison between the Targumim and the New Testament,’ _Journal for the Aramaic Bible_ 2 (2000), pp. 163-88 (166-67).

=======================
Pinkhos Churgin (1894-1957), _Targum Jonathan to the Prophets_ (1927), on 19-21, 42
https://archive.org/details/targumjonath...8/mode/2up
But this does not imply that no change was introduced in the existing official Targumim.
Certain traces in the Targum carry unmistakable evidence of a Babylonian recast, which was, however, of a very limited scope.
This will be discussed later.
The substance was left untouched.
Consequently, we may rest assured there was no unified authorship even to the extent of a thoroughgoing redaction.
But before advancing other views with regard to the authorship, we might well direct our attention to evidence preserved in the Targum.

It should be noticed at the outset that tradition assigns an early origin to the official Targumim.
The same tradition which vaguely ascribed the Targum to late authorities is sponsor of the statement that they originated far back of the age of these authorities.
Of Jonathan the tradition makes clear that he “said” the Targum from the mouths of the Prophets Haggai, Zachariah and Malachi.
With regard to Onkelos the tradition explains that Onkelos only restored the Targum, which originated with Ezra.
The latter was inferred, in the name of Rab, from the interpretation of Nehemiah 8:8, according to which ... carries the meaning of ... (R. Judan, Nedarim 37a; Gen. r. 36, end).

Making all allowance, the Targum Jonathan contains evidence pointing to a comparatively early date.
Evidence of a general character consists, first, of the textual deviations which abound in Jonathan as well as in Onkelos.
The same may be said with reference to the unacceptable Halaka, found in Onkelos.
This fact points to a date when these matters were still in the balance.
Why, however, they were permitted at a later age to remain in the Targum can easily be explained.
There was first of all the tradition referring the Targumim to the last Prophets and Ezra, which cast a halo over them, and none would venture either to question the propriety of the rendering or attempt to emend them, just because they appeared amazingly striking.

There was no cause for general alarm.
The Targum was read verse for verse with the Hebrew Text, which would bring home to the reflection of the hearer the established reading.
Still, precaution was sought to exclude a possible impression that the Targum represents the right reading.
I am persuaded to interpret the causes for the limitations placed upon the reading of the Targum in the light of this supposition.

The elimination of anthropomorphisms, so persistently carried through in the official Targumim, goes back to an early period.
...
Although the official Targumim were in a definite shape in the time of R. Akiba, the process of transformation had been still going on to a comparatively late date.
It affected both the literal and exegetical rendering.
Some older exegetical renderings were rejected and replaced by others.
Of the rejected, some have been preserved in the Ps. Jonathan, which in itself is an Aramaic Jalqut comprising also later Agadic material.