"Murdock translates this as ‘man’ here, as does Magiera"
In Mark 14:3 and Acts 8:27, both Murdock and Magiera mistranslated to get 'leper' and 'eunuch.'
Better translations of the original Aramaic is 'Simon the jar-maker/ potter' and 'Ethiopian believer.'
https://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/en/new...ord-search
Mar 14:3
(APNT)
And while he was in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper while reclining, a woman came who had near her an alabaster box of perfume of spikenard, the best, very costly, and she opened it and poured it on the head of Jesus.
(Murdock)
And when he was at Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he reclined, a woman came having an alabaster box of precious ointment of spikenard, of great price; and she opened and poured upon the head of Jesus.
Act 8:27
(APNT)
And he rose up [and] went. And he met a certain eunuch, who had come from Ethiopia, an official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians. And he was responsible for all of her treasure and had come to worship in Jerusalem.
(Murdock)
And he arose and went. And there met him a eunuch, who had come from Cush, an officer of Candace, queen of the Cushites, who had charge of all her treasure; and he had come to worship at Jerusalem.
"If the author wanted to specify ‘father’, he would use ܐܒܐ, which the Peshitta uses for the same statement in Lk 11,11"
That sounds to me like speculation. Re: Matthew 7:9 and Luke 11:11, is it your view that Matthew _didn't_ want to specify 'father,' while Luke _did_?
"The Greek NT calls the Syro-Phonecian woman a Greek, contradicting itself"
"If it were a mistake, that would more likely be a sign of originality, as mistakes tend to get corrected by later scribes and translators"
Later scribes and translators often introduce errors, e.g. the mistranslations in the Greek NT.
"Matthew deflects the impetus of the request onto the mother, away from James and John. Do you really think, Mark would have embellished Matthew’s account to make the James and John look worse?"
I don't accuse anybody there of embellishing.
"to make the James and John look worse"
Hiding behind one's mother's skirts to submit a request is worse than being manly about making one's request directly.
"their question about ‘calling down fire from heaven to destroy them’ is actually not all that bad from Luke’s perspective"
It looks bad to me. Luke says Jesus rebuked them.
"It is similar to Jesus’ own cursing of Chorazin, Bethsaida, Capernaum, or any town that did not accept his who did not accept his disciples (Lk 10,10-15)"
I don't think Jesus cursed those places.
"How do you interpret Lk 10,10-15"
A curse involves desiring that harm come to another.
Jesus didn't wish for harm to come to anyone.
Luke 10 (Bauscher)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/luke/10.htm
9 And heal those who are sick in it and say to them,
“The Kingdom of God has come near to you.”
10 “But whichever city you enter
and they will not receive you,
go out to the street and say”:
11 'Even the sand that cleaves to our feet
from your city we wipe off unto you,
yet know this,
The Kingdom of God has come near to you.'
12 “I say to you that
it shall be pleasant for Sadom in that day,
compared to that city.”
13 “Woe to you Korazin,
woe to you Bethsaida,
because if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Tsidon
that have occurred in you,
they doubtless would have repented in sackcloth and in ashes.
14 “Yet for Tyre and for Tsidon
it shall be pleasant in the day of judgment
compared to you.”
15 “And you Kapernahum, she that was exalted unto Heaven,
you shall be debased unto Sheol.”
Matthew 23 (Bauscher)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-engli...hew/23.htm
36 Amen, I say to you,
all these things will come upon this generation.
37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that murdered The Prophets
and stoned those who were sent to it!
How many times have I desired to gather your children,
as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings,
and you were not willing!
38 Behold, your house is left to you desolate!
/////////////////////////////////////////////////
"In the context of Mt 7,9, it can make more sense, but it is still rather unusual for ܓܒܪܐ to be translated as ‘father’. Do you know of anywhere else in the Peshitta that ܓܒܪܐ is translated as ‘father’?"
I don't consider interpreting the g-b-r-a here as 'father/s' a "forced reading on the text":
Matthew 7:9 (modified Younan)
https://www.dukhrana.com
Or whom among you g-b-r-a,
that of him his son asks bread,
why would hold out to him a rock?
Matthew 17:14-15 (modified Younan)
And when they came towards the crowds, a
g-b-r-a approached him and bowed down on his knees, and said to him, "Mari [my lord], have mercy upon me, for my son-- who has a demon of lunacy and is badly afflicted-- many times he has fallen in the fire, and many times in water.
Matthew 21:28
But what do you think?:
A certain g-b-r-a had two sons.
And he drew near to the first one and said to him,
'My son, go (and) work today in the vineyard.'
Matthew 22:2
"The Kingdom of Heaven is like a
g-b-r-a-- a malka [king]--
who prepared a wedding-feast for his son.
Luke 8
41 And a certain g-b-r-a whose name was Yorash, a chief of the assembly, fell before the feet of Yeshua and was beseeching from him that he might enter his house,
42. for he had an only daughter about twelve years old, and she was about to die. ….
Luke 9:38
And a certain g-b-r-a from the crowd cried out and he said, "Malpana [teacher], I beseech you, take notice of me! He is my only son to me,
Luke 15
11. And Yeshua would say to them again,
"A certain g-b-r-a had two sons.
12. And his younger son said to him,
'Abbi [my father], give to me the portion that is coming to me from your estate.'
And he divided to them his possessions.
John 4
49. That servant of the malka [king] said to him, "Mari [my lord], come down before the boy dies."
50. Yeshua said to him, "Go. Your son is alive."
And that g-b-r-a believed in the word that Yeshua spoke to him, and he departed.
Matthew 1
16. Yaqub fathered Yosip, the g-b-r-h
[i.e. "the Possessive Pronominal form of" g-b-r-a, meaning 'her g-b-r-a']
of Maryam, from whom was born Yeshua, who is called the Meshikha.
17. Therefore, all the generations from Awraham until Dawid (were) fourteen generations,
and from Dawid until the captivity of Babel (were) fourteen generations,
and from the captivity of Babel until the Meshikha (were) fourteen generations.
==================================
what you’re calling rhyming is based on rather inconsequential aspects of Semitic language suffixes”
“If you were to translate the prayer from Greek into Hebrew, how much rhyming could you come up with?”
“Exactly the same amount. It would be difficult to avoid. When you use the same suffixes repeatedly, they sound the same.”
I see rhyming in this Arabic version of the Lord’s Prayer in verse 12: r, a, r, a.
Where if anywhere else in the Arabic do you see rhyming?
Mt 6 (Ketab El Hayat (NAV))
https://www.biblegateway.com/p…..ersion=NAV
9b
أَبَانَا الَّذِي فِي السَّمَاوَ
اتِ، لِيَتَقَدَّسِ اسْمُكَ!
10
لِيَأْتِ مَلَكُوتُكَ!
لِتَكُنْ مَشِيئَتُكَ عَلَى الأَرْضِ
كَمَا هِيَ فِي السَّمَاءِ!
11
خُبْزَنَا كَفَافَنَا أَعْطِنَا الْيَوْمَ!
12
وَاغْفِرْ لَنَا ذُنُوبَنَا،
كَمَا نَغْفِرُ نَحْنُ لِلْمُذْنِبِينَ إِلَيْنَا!
13
وَلا تُدْخِلْنَا فِي تَجْرِبَةٍ،
لَكِنْ نَجِّنَا مِنَ الشِّرِّيرِ،
لأَنَّ لَكَ الْمُلْكَ وَالْقُوَّةَ وَالْمَجْدَ إِلَى الأَبَدِ.
آمِين.
Inserted ;s and =====s
9b
أَبَانَا ;
الَّذِي فِي السَّمَاوَ ;
============================
اتِ، لِيَتَقَدَّسِ اسْمُكَ! ;
10
لِيَأْتِ ;
مَلَكُوتُكَ! ;
لِتَكُنْ ;
مَشِيئَتُكَ ;
============================
عَلَى الأَرْضِ ;
كَمَا هِيَ فِي السَّمَاءِ! ;
============================
11
خُبْزَ ;
نَا كَفَافَنَا ;
أَعْطِنَا ;
الْيَوْمَ! ;
============================
12
وَاغْفِرْ ;
لَنَا ذُنُوبَنَا، ;
كَمَا نَغْفِرُ ;
نَحْنُ لِلْمُذْنِبِينَ إِلَيْنَا! ;
============================
13
وَلا ;
تُدْخِلْنَا ;
فِي تَجْرِبَةٍ، ;
لَكِنْ نَجِّنَا ;
مِنَ الشِّرِّيرِ، ;
لأَنَّ لَكَ الْمُلْكَ وَالْقُوَّةَ وَالْمَجْدَ إِلَى الأَبَدِ. ;
آمِين ;
Google translate of that
9b
our father;
who is in the heavens;
============================
Come, hallowed be thy name! ;
10
let him come;
Your kingdom! ;
let it be ;
your will ;
============================
On the ground ;
As it is in heaven! ;
============================
11
bread ;
our subsistence;
give us ;
today! ;
============================
12
and forgive;
We have our sins, ;
as we forgive;
We are for those who sin against us! ;
============================
13
no ;
enter us ;
in an experiment, ;
But we survived;
from the evil one, ;
because you have the power, glory and the kingdom for ever. ;
Amen ;
Google translate from before I segmented the Arabic further:
9b
Our Father in heaven
Come, hallowed be thy name!
10
May your kingdom come!
Thy will be done on earth
As it is in heaven!
11
Give us our daily bread!
12
and forgive us our sins,
As we forgive those who trespass against us!
13
lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil,
because you have the power, glory and the kingdom for ever.
Amen.
Google translate transliteration
9b
‘abana ;
aladhi fi alsamaw ;
============================
ati, liataqadas asmuka! ;
10
liat ;
malakutuka! ;
litakun ;
mashiyatuk ;
============================
ealaa al’ard ;
kama hi fi alsama’i! ;
============================
11 khubz ;
na kafafana ;
‘aetina ;
alyawma! ;
============================
12 waghfir ;
lana dhunubana, ;
kama naghfir ;
nahn lilmudhnibin ‘iilayna! ;
============================
13 wala ;
tudkhilna ;
fi tajribatin, ;
lakin najina ;
min alshiriyri, ;
l’ana lak almulk walquat walmajd ‘iilaa al’abadi. ;
amin
Peshitta’s Matthew
Ah-woon ** our Father
d’wash-may-ya ** in heaven
============================
nith-qad-dash shmakh ** holy be Your name
teh’-theh’ ** come
mal-koo-thakh ** Your kingdom
neh-weh ** be done
tsow-ya-nakh ** Your will
============================
ay-kan-na ** as
d’wash-may-ya ** in heaven
ap b’ar-aa ** so on earth.
11 ============================
haw lan ** give us
lakh-ma ** the bread
d’son-qa-nan ** of our need
yo-ma-na ** this day
12 ============================
ow’shwoq lan ** and forgive us
khow-beyn ** our offences
ay-kan-na d’ap kha-nan ** as also we
shwa-qan ** have forgiven
l’khay-ya-wen ** those who have offended us
13 ============================
ow’la ** and not
ta’-lan ** bring us
l’nis-you-na ** into trial
al-la pas-san ** but deliver us
min bee-sha ** from the evil one
============================
modt-dtil d’dee-lak ** for of yours
hee mal-koo-tha ** is the Kingdom
ow’khay-la ** and the power
ow’tish-bokh-tha ** and the glory
l’al-um ail-meen. ** to the age (of) ages, or: to the world (of) worlds
==========================================
“I don’t speak Arabic”
Nor I.
“when you translate the Greek Our Father into Aramaic or Hebrew (or any Semitic language)”
Arabic is a “Semitic language.” Besides the Arabic verse 12’s r, a, r, a, do you see any rhyming?
“you are going to end up with a lot of what you call ‘rhyming’ because the suffixes will sound the same”
====================================
“I’m just talking about the most common translation of these words”
The “most common translation” yields
1. ‘Simon the leper’– when lepers were prohibited from congregating with non-lepers–
2. ‘the Ethiopian eunuch’ planning to worship in Jerusalem– when those castrated were prohibited by Mosaic law from entering the temple–
and
3. ‘Joseph the husband of Mary’– when the context is people being fathers of other people, with 14 x 3 sets of generations, and a ‘thought switcher’ after the presentation of the geneology.
In short, 3 of the Greek NT’s mistranslations. Besides several additional mistranslations.
“See the translations of Murdock, Magiera, Younan”
Native Aramaic speaker Younan thinks Mt 1:16 has ‘Joseph the guardian/father of Mary.’
“Were they all wrong here?”
Younan is correct.
“Do you know of anywhere else in the Peshitta where ܓܒܪܐ is translated as ‘father’ (or ‘step-father’ or ‘guardian’)?”
In a couple places it seems to me to refer to ‘people’ generally, as in ‘have the men (i.e. the people: men, women, and children) sit down in groups’; I recall 1 such instance in Matthew, and 1 such instance in Luke.
In most places it refers to males, without indicating any familial relationship.
In a few places it refers to men who are obviously husbands.
In a few places it refers to men who are obviously fathers.
“If so, by whom, and what percentage of the total number of usages are translated in this way?”
From counting g-b-r-a in Magiera’s concordance:
Mt: 44 instances.
Given the context, I’d say 5 are best rendered with father/s: Mt 1:16, 7:9, 17:14, 21:28, and 22:2.
Given the context, 1 is best rendered with ‘husband’: Mt 19:10.
Everything else: man or men.
Mk: 18 instances.
husband – Mk 10:2
Everything else: man or men.
Lk: 62 instances.
3 are best rendered with father: Lk 8:41, 9:38, 15:11
husband – 0
Everything else: man or men.
Jn: 28 instances.
1 is best rendered with father: Jn 4:50.
husband – 0
Everything else: man or men.
Acts: I didn’t look these up, but Magiera’s concordance lists ~113 instances of g-b-r-a. None of them she translated as ‘husband.’ Everything is man or men, with the exception of Acts 3:14, where her concordance mentions ‘murderer.’
/////////////////////////////////////////
Glenn David Bauscher has translated the Peshitta NT and OT, except for its OT deuterocanonical books.
The Aramaic 'd-i-n,' a 'thought switcher,' is the second word in Peshitta 1:18 and 1:19.
Matthew 1 (Bauscher)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-engli...thew/1.htm
16 Yaqob begot Yoseph the guardian of Maryam, her from whom was begotten Yeshua, who is called The Messiah.
17 Therefore all generations from Abraham until David were fourteen generations, and from David until the captivity of Babel, fourteen generations, and from the captivity of Babel until The Messiah, fourteen generations.
18 The birth of Yeshua The Messiah was thus: when Maryam his mother was engaged to Yoseph before they would have a conjugal relation she was found pregnant from The Spirit of Holiness.
19 But Yoseph her lord was righteous and did not want to expose her, and he was considering divorcing her secretly.
"The Number of Generations in Matthew 1: A Proposition Based on the Peshitta" (2017), 61pp., on 54
PDF: https://baylor-ir.tdl.org/bitstream/hand...%25201.pdf
Conclusion
Due to the semantic ranges of ... [g-b-r-h, i.e. 'her g-b-r-a'] and ... [b-ai-l-h, i.e. 'her baal'/ lord] in Matthew 1.16 and 1.19, respectively, Matthew 1 may speak of two people named ‘Joseph.’ This would make the third section have 14 generations. It would also harmonize the genealogies in Matthew 1 and Luke 3, albeit with Joseph as Mary’s guardian instead of either tradition of Joachim or Zadoq as her father.
This proposition may be unconvincing, perhaps depending on one’s regard for _P_ [i.e. the Peshitta]. It may disregard the midrashic nature of the genealogy in Matthew 1. Nevertheless, it is less strained than the other explanations, and the most likely.
///////////////////////////////////
"for Mt 1,16, Younan says, 'It is unclear whether the text refers to Maryam’s father or to her husband.'"
Younan wrote
Feature 3 – Mistranslating the Genealogies of Yeshua, pp. 228-241.
On 241:
So this example makes a very clear case for translating 0rbg as "father", if it is drawn from the proper context.
in
'Raphael Lataster,' _Was the New Testament Really Written in Greek?: A Concise Compendium of the Many Internal and External Evidences of Aramaic Peshitta Primacy_ (2008), 298pp.
PDF: http://ia902200.us.archive.org/16/items/...reek1e.pdf
///////////////////////////////////////////////
“what I said still holds for… Aramaic”
For Old Syriac Curetonian, I see lack of the Khabouris Peshitta’s rhyming in Mt 6:10 (see the -s around the rhyme-breaking word), and in 6:11.
Because OS Sinaitic has merely 6:9 completely, 6:10 fragmentarily, and lacks any more text until Mt 8:3, it’s too incomplete to check its rhyming.
OS Curetonian is missing 6:13’s ‘and the power,’ and has an added-later ‘amen.’
using Peshitta tool of
http://dukhrana.com
Matthew 6:9 – ܗܟܢܐ ܗܟܝܠ ܨܠܘ ܐܢܬܘܢ ܐܒܘܢ ܕܒܫܡܝܐ
ܢܬܩܕܫ ܫܡܟ ܀ (Khabouris)
Matthew 6:9 – ܗܟܢܐ ܕܝܢ ܗܘܝܬܘܢ ܡܨܠܝܢ ܐܒܘܢ ܕܒܫܡܝܐ
ܢܬܩܕܫ ܫܡܟ ܀ (OS Curetonian)
Matthew 6:9 – Thus pray: Our Father who art in the heavens!
be sanctified thy Name. (Etheridge)
Matthew 6:10 – ܬܐܬܐ ܡܠܟܘܬܟ ܢܗܘܐ ܨܒܝܢܟ ܐܝܟܢܐ ܕܒܫܡܝܐ ܐܦ ܒܐܪܥܐ ܀ (Khabouris)
Matthew 6:10 – ܬܐܬܐ ܡܠܟܘܬܟ -ܘܢܗܘܘܢ- ܨܒ̈ܝܢܝܟ ܒܐܪܥܐ ܐܝܟ ܕܒܫܡܝܐ ܀ (OS Curetonian)
Matthew 6:10 – Come thy kingdom. Be done thy will, as in heaven, also in earth. (Etheridge)
Matthew 6:11 – ܗܒܠܢ ܠܚܡܐ ܕܣܘܢܩܢܢ ܝܘܡܢܐ ܀ (Khabouris) n a, n a
Matthew 6:11 – ܘܠܚܡܢ ܐܡܝܢܐ ܕܝܘܡܐ ܗܒ ܠܢ ܀ (OS Curetonian) n a, a n
Matthew 6:11 – Give to us the bread of our need to-day; (Etheridge)
Matthew 6:12 – ܘܫܒܘܩ ܠܢ ܚܘܒܝܢ ܐܝܟܢܐ ܕܐܦ ܚܢܢ ܫܒܩܢ ܠܚܝܒܝܢ ܀ (Khabouris)
Matthew 6:12 – ܘܫܒܘܩ ܠܢ ܚܘ̈ܒܝܢ ܐܝܟܢܐ ܕܐܦ ܐܢܚܢܢ ܢܫܒܘܩ ܠܚܝ̈ܒܝܢ ܀ (OS Curetonian)
Matthew 6:12 – and forgive us our debts, as also we forgive our debtors; (Etheridge)
Matthew 6:13 – ܘܠܐ ܬܥܠܢ ܠܢܣܝܘܢܐ ܐܠܐ ܦܨܢ ܡܢ ܒܝܫܐ ܡܛܠ ܕܕܝܠܟ ܗܝ ܡܠܟܘܬܐ ܘܚܝܠܐ ܘܬܫܒܘܚܬܐ ܠܥܠܡ ܥܠܡܝܢ ܀ (Khabouris)
Matthew 6:13 – ܘܠܐ ܬܝܬܝܢ ܠܢܣܝܘܢܐ ܐܠܐ ܦܨܢ ܡܢ ܒܝܫܐ ܡܛܠ ܕܕܝܠܟ ܗܝ ܡܠܟܘܬܐ ܘܬܫܒܘܚܬܐ ܠܥܠܡ ܥܠܡܝܢ ܐܡܝܢ ܀ (OS Curetonian)
Matthew 6:13 – and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil. For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory to the age of ages. (Etheridge)
///////////////////////////
https://www.britannica.com/bio…..er-Torrey#
Charles Cutler Torrey, (born Dec. 20, 1863, East Hardwick, Vt., U.S.—died Nov. 12, 1956, Chicago), U.S. Semitic scholar who held independent and stimulating views on certain biblical problems.
Born: December 20, 1863 Vermont
Died: November 12, 1956 (aged 92) Chicago Illinois
Subjects Of Study: Bible Islam Semitic languages
Torrey studied at Bowdoin (Maine) College and Andover (Mass.) Theological Seminary and in Europe. He taught Semitic languages at Andover (1892–1900) and Yale (1900–32), and was founder and first director (1900–01) of the American School of Archaeology (later renamed the American School of Oriental Research) at Jerusalem.
…. In The Translations Made from the Original Aramaic Gospels (1912), The Four Gospels: A New Translation (1933), and Our Translated Gospels (1936), Torrey held that the four Gospels were Greek translations from Aramaic originals. The posthumous Apocalypse of John (1958) argues that Revelation was a translation of an Aramaic original written in AD 68.
/////////////////////////////////////////////
“Is this the same Raphael Lataster, the self-proclaimed ‘ahistoricist scholar’ who now ‘argues that agnosticism over Jesus’ historical existence is more than reasonable, that outright denying Jesus’ historicity is quite fair’ and the logical impossibility of the monotheistic concept?”
Yes– the one and the same.
“That does not seem likely”
Christopher Lancaster aka ‘Raphael Lataster,’ Michael Shermer, and Bart Ehrman were Christians at one point, but presently aren’t Christians.
“Did Younan change his mind about ܓܒܪܐ in Mt 1,16?”
I’m sure his views on the word have changed through the years.
This is from 2016:
peshitta.org, the forum
Paul Younan
Administrator
*******
Posts: 2,812
Threads: 271
Joined: Sep 2003
Reputation: 2
#203-01-2016, 11:05 PM
“Gabra” in all Aramaic dialects just means the generic “man”, in contrast to “Talia” which means “boy.”
So a father and a husband can be referred to as “gabra”.
Hence, it was Mary’s father who shared the same common name as her future husband, and both were properly referred to as her “gabra.”
+Shamasha
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de’Beth-Younan
////////////////////////////////
“Does he still believe in Peshitta primacy?”
Probably not, judging by this:
_Jesus Did Not Exist: A Debate Among Atheists_, Raphael Lataster with Richard Carrier (2015)
https://vdoc.pub/documents/jesus-did-not...q9tkatvja0
2. THE CASE FOR HISTORICITY: CASEY
….
In a section on dating the synoptic Gospels, Casey continues to rail against the likes of amateurs like ‘Blogger Godfrey’ and Acharya S, and notes his own reliance on a ‘special’ type of source.[327]
“Our earliest source, the Gospel of Mark, is also full of peculiarities which are due to his use of sources which were written in Aramaic, the language of Jesus and all of his earliest followers… This is one of many pieces of evidence that parts of Mark’s Gospel were translated from Aramaic sources.”[328]
That didn’t take long. Just like Ehrman, Casey places great importance on hypothetical sources, and partly argues for them on the basis of mistakes caused by the supposedly poor translating skills of the Gospel authors.[329] That is worth repeating. Casey relies on sources that _do not exist_, and apparently, that is perfectly acceptable to New Testament historians.
////////////////////////////////
someone:
From Raphael Lataster’s Facebook page (January 9, 2016):
"Steve Caruso: Caruso and McGrath have brought up the oddity that I used to be a ‘Peshitta primacist’; I used to believe that the NT was originally written in Aramaic, rather than Greek. This is true. I was wrong. I have been wrong before. Such as when I was a Christian and I thought God existed. *ba-dum-tss* I was a Christian then. I was an untrained and unqualified teenager, desperate to hold onto my fundamentalist Christian beliefs. I am no longer Christian, fundamentalist, untrained, or a teenager, so obviously my methods and outlook have changed."
////////////////////////////////
“the more difficult reading, as long as it is not impossible, is most likely the original reading”
Would this be an “impossible” reading?:
from Lataster’s book on Jesus:
[483] Ronald F. Hock, _The Infancy Gospels of James and Thomas: With Introduction, Notes, and Original Text Featuring the New Scholars Version Translation_ (Santa Rosa, CA: Polebridge Press, 1995), p. 109. The surrounding pages portray Jesus’ _Carrie_-style rampage, killing, cursing, and blinding, left and right.
///////////////////////////////
It would be neat to see an interlinear of the Arabic.
Syriac Gospels, British Library, Add. 14467
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_Gos...Add._14467
British Library, Add MS 14467, is a Syriac manuscript of the New Testament, according to the Peshitta version, on parchment. Palaeographic analysis has dated the manuscript to the 10th century.[1]
Description
The manuscript contains the fragments of Gospel of Matthew (folios 1-8) and Gospel of John (folios 9-15), according to the Peshitta version, with Arabic translation, on 15 leaves (10 by 6¾ inches). The writing is in two columns per page, 26-37 lines per page. The Syriac column is written in Nestorian character, with occasional vowel-points and signs of punctuation, the Arabic column has a few diacritical points.[1]
Contents
Matthew 7:22-11:1; 11:22-12:10; 16:21-17:13;
John 8:59-10:18; 16:13-18:3; 19:27-20:25.
The larger sections are marked both in the Syriac and Arabic texts.[1]
The manuscript was brought from the covenant of St. Mary Deipara, in the Nitrian Desert.[1]
The manuscript is housed at the British Library (Add MS 14467) in London.[1]
/////////////////////////////////////
“the more difficult reading, as long as it is not impossible, is most likely the original reading”
Would this be an “impossible” reading?:
Wilson, vol. 1, on 6, for Matthew 1:16
"Jacob begat Joseph, the Joseph to whom was betrothed Mary the Virgin, he begat Jesus, who is called the Messiah." -- Codex Palimpsestus Sinaiticus
/////////////////////////////////////
'Old Syriac' Codex Palimpsestus Sinaiticus has the mistranslation 'Simon the leper' in Matthew 26:6 and again in Mark 14:3. See pages 246 and 328 of Wilson.
We lack Codex Nitriensis Curetonianus for those verses.
In Mark 14:3 and Acts 8:27, both Murdock and Magiera mistranslated to get 'leper' and 'eunuch.'
Better translations of the original Aramaic is 'Simon the jar-maker/ potter' and 'Ethiopian believer.'
https://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/en/new...ord-search
Mar 14:3
(APNT)
And while he was in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper while reclining, a woman came who had near her an alabaster box of perfume of spikenard, the best, very costly, and she opened it and poured it on the head of Jesus.
(Murdock)
And when he was at Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he reclined, a woman came having an alabaster box of precious ointment of spikenard, of great price; and she opened and poured upon the head of Jesus.
Act 8:27
(APNT)
And he rose up [and] went. And he met a certain eunuch, who had come from Ethiopia, an official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians. And he was responsible for all of her treasure and had come to worship in Jerusalem.
(Murdock)
And he arose and went. And there met him a eunuch, who had come from Cush, an officer of Candace, queen of the Cushites, who had charge of all her treasure; and he had come to worship at Jerusalem.
"If the author wanted to specify ‘father’, he would use ܐܒܐ, which the Peshitta uses for the same statement in Lk 11,11"
That sounds to me like speculation. Re: Matthew 7:9 and Luke 11:11, is it your view that Matthew _didn't_ want to specify 'father,' while Luke _did_?
"The Greek NT calls the Syro-Phonecian woman a Greek, contradicting itself"
"If it were a mistake, that would more likely be a sign of originality, as mistakes tend to get corrected by later scribes and translators"
Later scribes and translators often introduce errors, e.g. the mistranslations in the Greek NT.
"Matthew deflects the impetus of the request onto the mother, away from James and John. Do you really think, Mark would have embellished Matthew’s account to make the James and John look worse?"
I don't accuse anybody there of embellishing.
"to make the James and John look worse"
Hiding behind one's mother's skirts to submit a request is worse than being manly about making one's request directly.
"their question about ‘calling down fire from heaven to destroy them’ is actually not all that bad from Luke’s perspective"
It looks bad to me. Luke says Jesus rebuked them.
"It is similar to Jesus’ own cursing of Chorazin, Bethsaida, Capernaum, or any town that did not accept his who did not accept his disciples (Lk 10,10-15)"
I don't think Jesus cursed those places.
"How do you interpret Lk 10,10-15"
A curse involves desiring that harm come to another.
Jesus didn't wish for harm to come to anyone.
Luke 10 (Bauscher)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/luke/10.htm
9 And heal those who are sick in it and say to them,
“The Kingdom of God has come near to you.”
10 “But whichever city you enter
and they will not receive you,
go out to the street and say”:
11 'Even the sand that cleaves to our feet
from your city we wipe off unto you,
yet know this,
The Kingdom of God has come near to you.'
12 “I say to you that
it shall be pleasant for Sadom in that day,
compared to that city.”
13 “Woe to you Korazin,
woe to you Bethsaida,
because if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Tsidon
that have occurred in you,
they doubtless would have repented in sackcloth and in ashes.
14 “Yet for Tyre and for Tsidon
it shall be pleasant in the day of judgment
compared to you.”
15 “And you Kapernahum, she that was exalted unto Heaven,
you shall be debased unto Sheol.”
Matthew 23 (Bauscher)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-engli...hew/23.htm
36 Amen, I say to you,
all these things will come upon this generation.
37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that murdered The Prophets
and stoned those who were sent to it!
How many times have I desired to gather your children,
as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings,
and you were not willing!
38 Behold, your house is left to you desolate!
/////////////////////////////////////////////////
"In the context of Mt 7,9, it can make more sense, but it is still rather unusual for ܓܒܪܐ to be translated as ‘father’. Do you know of anywhere else in the Peshitta that ܓܒܪܐ is translated as ‘father’?"
I don't consider interpreting the g-b-r-a here as 'father/s' a "forced reading on the text":
Matthew 7:9 (modified Younan)
https://www.dukhrana.com
Or whom among you g-b-r-a,
that of him his son asks bread,
why would hold out to him a rock?
Matthew 17:14-15 (modified Younan)
And when they came towards the crowds, a
g-b-r-a approached him and bowed down on his knees, and said to him, "Mari [my lord], have mercy upon me, for my son-- who has a demon of lunacy and is badly afflicted-- many times he has fallen in the fire, and many times in water.
Matthew 21:28
But what do you think?:
A certain g-b-r-a had two sons.
And he drew near to the first one and said to him,
'My son, go (and) work today in the vineyard.'
Matthew 22:2
"The Kingdom of Heaven is like a
g-b-r-a-- a malka [king]--
who prepared a wedding-feast for his son.
Luke 8
41 And a certain g-b-r-a whose name was Yorash, a chief of the assembly, fell before the feet of Yeshua and was beseeching from him that he might enter his house,
42. for he had an only daughter about twelve years old, and she was about to die. ….
Luke 9:38
And a certain g-b-r-a from the crowd cried out and he said, "Malpana [teacher], I beseech you, take notice of me! He is my only son to me,
Luke 15
11. And Yeshua would say to them again,
"A certain g-b-r-a had two sons.
12. And his younger son said to him,
'Abbi [my father], give to me the portion that is coming to me from your estate.'
And he divided to them his possessions.
John 4
49. That servant of the malka [king] said to him, "Mari [my lord], come down before the boy dies."
50. Yeshua said to him, "Go. Your son is alive."
And that g-b-r-a believed in the word that Yeshua spoke to him, and he departed.
Matthew 1
16. Yaqub fathered Yosip, the g-b-r-h
[i.e. "the Possessive Pronominal form of" g-b-r-a, meaning 'her g-b-r-a']
of Maryam, from whom was born Yeshua, who is called the Meshikha.
17. Therefore, all the generations from Awraham until Dawid (were) fourteen generations,
and from Dawid until the captivity of Babel (were) fourteen generations,
and from the captivity of Babel until the Meshikha (were) fourteen generations.
==================================
what you’re calling rhyming is based on rather inconsequential aspects of Semitic language suffixes”
“If you were to translate the prayer from Greek into Hebrew, how much rhyming could you come up with?”
“Exactly the same amount. It would be difficult to avoid. When you use the same suffixes repeatedly, they sound the same.”
I see rhyming in this Arabic version of the Lord’s Prayer in verse 12: r, a, r, a.
Where if anywhere else in the Arabic do you see rhyming?
Mt 6 (Ketab El Hayat (NAV))
https://www.biblegateway.com/p…..ersion=NAV
9b
أَبَانَا الَّذِي فِي السَّمَاوَ
اتِ، لِيَتَقَدَّسِ اسْمُكَ!
10
لِيَأْتِ مَلَكُوتُكَ!
لِتَكُنْ مَشِيئَتُكَ عَلَى الأَرْضِ
كَمَا هِيَ فِي السَّمَاءِ!
11
خُبْزَنَا كَفَافَنَا أَعْطِنَا الْيَوْمَ!
12
وَاغْفِرْ لَنَا ذُنُوبَنَا،
كَمَا نَغْفِرُ نَحْنُ لِلْمُذْنِبِينَ إِلَيْنَا!
13
وَلا تُدْخِلْنَا فِي تَجْرِبَةٍ،
لَكِنْ نَجِّنَا مِنَ الشِّرِّيرِ،
لأَنَّ لَكَ الْمُلْكَ وَالْقُوَّةَ وَالْمَجْدَ إِلَى الأَبَدِ.
آمِين.
Inserted ;s and =====s
9b
أَبَانَا ;
الَّذِي فِي السَّمَاوَ ;
============================
اتِ، لِيَتَقَدَّسِ اسْمُكَ! ;
10
لِيَأْتِ ;
مَلَكُوتُكَ! ;
لِتَكُنْ ;
مَشِيئَتُكَ ;
============================
عَلَى الأَرْضِ ;
كَمَا هِيَ فِي السَّمَاءِ! ;
============================
11
خُبْزَ ;
نَا كَفَافَنَا ;
أَعْطِنَا ;
الْيَوْمَ! ;
============================
12
وَاغْفِرْ ;
لَنَا ذُنُوبَنَا، ;
كَمَا نَغْفِرُ ;
نَحْنُ لِلْمُذْنِبِينَ إِلَيْنَا! ;
============================
13
وَلا ;
تُدْخِلْنَا ;
فِي تَجْرِبَةٍ، ;
لَكِنْ نَجِّنَا ;
مِنَ الشِّرِّيرِ، ;
لأَنَّ لَكَ الْمُلْكَ وَالْقُوَّةَ وَالْمَجْدَ إِلَى الأَبَدِ. ;
آمِين ;
Google translate of that
9b
our father;
who is in the heavens;
============================
Come, hallowed be thy name! ;
10
let him come;
Your kingdom! ;
let it be ;
your will ;
============================
On the ground ;
As it is in heaven! ;
============================
11
bread ;
our subsistence;
give us ;
today! ;
============================
12
and forgive;
We have our sins, ;
as we forgive;
We are for those who sin against us! ;
============================
13
no ;
enter us ;
in an experiment, ;
But we survived;
from the evil one, ;
because you have the power, glory and the kingdom for ever. ;
Amen ;
Google translate from before I segmented the Arabic further:
9b
Our Father in heaven
Come, hallowed be thy name!
10
May your kingdom come!
Thy will be done on earth
As it is in heaven!
11
Give us our daily bread!
12
and forgive us our sins,
As we forgive those who trespass against us!
13
lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil,
because you have the power, glory and the kingdom for ever.
Amen.
Google translate transliteration
9b
‘abana ;
aladhi fi alsamaw ;
============================
ati, liataqadas asmuka! ;
10
liat ;
malakutuka! ;
litakun ;
mashiyatuk ;
============================
ealaa al’ard ;
kama hi fi alsama’i! ;
============================
11 khubz ;
na kafafana ;
‘aetina ;
alyawma! ;
============================
12 waghfir ;
lana dhunubana, ;
kama naghfir ;
nahn lilmudhnibin ‘iilayna! ;
============================
13 wala ;
tudkhilna ;
fi tajribatin, ;
lakin najina ;
min alshiriyri, ;
l’ana lak almulk walquat walmajd ‘iilaa al’abadi. ;
amin
Peshitta’s Matthew
Ah-woon ** our Father
d’wash-may-ya ** in heaven
============================
nith-qad-dash shmakh ** holy be Your name
teh’-theh’ ** come
mal-koo-thakh ** Your kingdom
neh-weh ** be done
tsow-ya-nakh ** Your will
============================
ay-kan-na ** as
d’wash-may-ya ** in heaven
ap b’ar-aa ** so on earth.
11 ============================
haw lan ** give us
lakh-ma ** the bread
d’son-qa-nan ** of our need
yo-ma-na ** this day
12 ============================
ow’shwoq lan ** and forgive us
khow-beyn ** our offences
ay-kan-na d’ap kha-nan ** as also we
shwa-qan ** have forgiven
l’khay-ya-wen ** those who have offended us
13 ============================
ow’la ** and not
ta’-lan ** bring us
l’nis-you-na ** into trial
al-la pas-san ** but deliver us
min bee-sha ** from the evil one
============================
modt-dtil d’dee-lak ** for of yours
hee mal-koo-tha ** is the Kingdom
ow’khay-la ** and the power
ow’tish-bokh-tha ** and the glory
l’al-um ail-meen. ** to the age (of) ages, or: to the world (of) worlds
==========================================
“I don’t speak Arabic”
Nor I.
“when you translate the Greek Our Father into Aramaic or Hebrew (or any Semitic language)”
Arabic is a “Semitic language.” Besides the Arabic verse 12’s r, a, r, a, do you see any rhyming?
“you are going to end up with a lot of what you call ‘rhyming’ because the suffixes will sound the same”
====================================
“I’m just talking about the most common translation of these words”
The “most common translation” yields
1. ‘Simon the leper’– when lepers were prohibited from congregating with non-lepers–
2. ‘the Ethiopian eunuch’ planning to worship in Jerusalem– when those castrated were prohibited by Mosaic law from entering the temple–
and
3. ‘Joseph the husband of Mary’– when the context is people being fathers of other people, with 14 x 3 sets of generations, and a ‘thought switcher’ after the presentation of the geneology.
In short, 3 of the Greek NT’s mistranslations. Besides several additional mistranslations.
“See the translations of Murdock, Magiera, Younan”
Native Aramaic speaker Younan thinks Mt 1:16 has ‘Joseph the guardian/father of Mary.’
“Were they all wrong here?”
Younan is correct.
“Do you know of anywhere else in the Peshitta where ܓܒܪܐ is translated as ‘father’ (or ‘step-father’ or ‘guardian’)?”
In a couple places it seems to me to refer to ‘people’ generally, as in ‘have the men (i.e. the people: men, women, and children) sit down in groups’; I recall 1 such instance in Matthew, and 1 such instance in Luke.
In most places it refers to males, without indicating any familial relationship.
In a few places it refers to men who are obviously husbands.
In a few places it refers to men who are obviously fathers.
“If so, by whom, and what percentage of the total number of usages are translated in this way?”
From counting g-b-r-a in Magiera’s concordance:
Mt: 44 instances.
Given the context, I’d say 5 are best rendered with father/s: Mt 1:16, 7:9, 17:14, 21:28, and 22:2.
Given the context, 1 is best rendered with ‘husband’: Mt 19:10.
Everything else: man or men.
Mk: 18 instances.
husband – Mk 10:2
Everything else: man or men.
Lk: 62 instances.
3 are best rendered with father: Lk 8:41, 9:38, 15:11
husband – 0
Everything else: man or men.
Jn: 28 instances.
1 is best rendered with father: Jn 4:50.
husband – 0
Everything else: man or men.
Acts: I didn’t look these up, but Magiera’s concordance lists ~113 instances of g-b-r-a. None of them she translated as ‘husband.’ Everything is man or men, with the exception of Acts 3:14, where her concordance mentions ‘murderer.’
/////////////////////////////////////////
Glenn David Bauscher has translated the Peshitta NT and OT, except for its OT deuterocanonical books.
The Aramaic 'd-i-n,' a 'thought switcher,' is the second word in Peshitta 1:18 and 1:19.
Matthew 1 (Bauscher)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-engli...thew/1.htm
16 Yaqob begot Yoseph the guardian of Maryam, her from whom was begotten Yeshua, who is called The Messiah.
17 Therefore all generations from Abraham until David were fourteen generations, and from David until the captivity of Babel, fourteen generations, and from the captivity of Babel until The Messiah, fourteen generations.
18 The birth of Yeshua The Messiah was thus: when Maryam his mother was engaged to Yoseph before they would have a conjugal relation she was found pregnant from The Spirit of Holiness.
19 But Yoseph her lord was righteous and did not want to expose her, and he was considering divorcing her secretly.
"The Number of Generations in Matthew 1: A Proposition Based on the Peshitta" (2017), 61pp., on 54
PDF: https://baylor-ir.tdl.org/bitstream/hand...%25201.pdf
Conclusion
Due to the semantic ranges of ... [g-b-r-h, i.e. 'her g-b-r-a'] and ... [b-ai-l-h, i.e. 'her baal'/ lord] in Matthew 1.16 and 1.19, respectively, Matthew 1 may speak of two people named ‘Joseph.’ This would make the third section have 14 generations. It would also harmonize the genealogies in Matthew 1 and Luke 3, albeit with Joseph as Mary’s guardian instead of either tradition of Joachim or Zadoq as her father.
This proposition may be unconvincing, perhaps depending on one’s regard for _P_ [i.e. the Peshitta]. It may disregard the midrashic nature of the genealogy in Matthew 1. Nevertheless, it is less strained than the other explanations, and the most likely.
///////////////////////////////////
"for Mt 1,16, Younan says, 'It is unclear whether the text refers to Maryam’s father or to her husband.'"
Younan wrote
Feature 3 – Mistranslating the Genealogies of Yeshua, pp. 228-241.
On 241:
So this example makes a very clear case for translating 0rbg as "father", if it is drawn from the proper context.
in
'Raphael Lataster,' _Was the New Testament Really Written in Greek?: A Concise Compendium of the Many Internal and External Evidences of Aramaic Peshitta Primacy_ (2008), 298pp.
PDF: http://ia902200.us.archive.org/16/items/...reek1e.pdf
///////////////////////////////////////////////
“what I said still holds for… Aramaic”
For Old Syriac Curetonian, I see lack of the Khabouris Peshitta’s rhyming in Mt 6:10 (see the -s around the rhyme-breaking word), and in 6:11.
Because OS Sinaitic has merely 6:9 completely, 6:10 fragmentarily, and lacks any more text until Mt 8:3, it’s too incomplete to check its rhyming.
OS Curetonian is missing 6:13’s ‘and the power,’ and has an added-later ‘amen.’
using Peshitta tool of
http://dukhrana.com
Matthew 6:9 – ܗܟܢܐ ܗܟܝܠ ܨܠܘ ܐܢܬܘܢ ܐܒܘܢ ܕܒܫܡܝܐ
ܢܬܩܕܫ ܫܡܟ ܀ (Khabouris)
Matthew 6:9 – ܗܟܢܐ ܕܝܢ ܗܘܝܬܘܢ ܡܨܠܝܢ ܐܒܘܢ ܕܒܫܡܝܐ
ܢܬܩܕܫ ܫܡܟ ܀ (OS Curetonian)
Matthew 6:9 – Thus pray: Our Father who art in the heavens!
be sanctified thy Name. (Etheridge)
Matthew 6:10 – ܬܐܬܐ ܡܠܟܘܬܟ ܢܗܘܐ ܨܒܝܢܟ ܐܝܟܢܐ ܕܒܫܡܝܐ ܐܦ ܒܐܪܥܐ ܀ (Khabouris)
Matthew 6:10 – ܬܐܬܐ ܡܠܟܘܬܟ -ܘܢܗܘܘܢ- ܨܒ̈ܝܢܝܟ ܒܐܪܥܐ ܐܝܟ ܕܒܫܡܝܐ ܀ (OS Curetonian)
Matthew 6:10 – Come thy kingdom. Be done thy will, as in heaven, also in earth. (Etheridge)
Matthew 6:11 – ܗܒܠܢ ܠܚܡܐ ܕܣܘܢܩܢܢ ܝܘܡܢܐ ܀ (Khabouris) n a, n a
Matthew 6:11 – ܘܠܚܡܢ ܐܡܝܢܐ ܕܝܘܡܐ ܗܒ ܠܢ ܀ (OS Curetonian) n a, a n
Matthew 6:11 – Give to us the bread of our need to-day; (Etheridge)
Matthew 6:12 – ܘܫܒܘܩ ܠܢ ܚܘܒܝܢ ܐܝܟܢܐ ܕܐܦ ܚܢܢ ܫܒܩܢ ܠܚܝܒܝܢ ܀ (Khabouris)
Matthew 6:12 – ܘܫܒܘܩ ܠܢ ܚܘ̈ܒܝܢ ܐܝܟܢܐ ܕܐܦ ܐܢܚܢܢ ܢܫܒܘܩ ܠܚܝ̈ܒܝܢ ܀ (OS Curetonian)
Matthew 6:12 – and forgive us our debts, as also we forgive our debtors; (Etheridge)
Matthew 6:13 – ܘܠܐ ܬܥܠܢ ܠܢܣܝܘܢܐ ܐܠܐ ܦܨܢ ܡܢ ܒܝܫܐ ܡܛܠ ܕܕܝܠܟ ܗܝ ܡܠܟܘܬܐ ܘܚܝܠܐ ܘܬܫܒܘܚܬܐ ܠܥܠܡ ܥܠܡܝܢ ܀ (Khabouris)
Matthew 6:13 – ܘܠܐ ܬܝܬܝܢ ܠܢܣܝܘܢܐ ܐܠܐ ܦܨܢ ܡܢ ܒܝܫܐ ܡܛܠ ܕܕܝܠܟ ܗܝ ܡܠܟܘܬܐ ܘܬܫܒܘܚܬܐ ܠܥܠܡ ܥܠܡܝܢ ܐܡܝܢ ܀ (OS Curetonian)
Matthew 6:13 – and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil. For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory to the age of ages. (Etheridge)
///////////////////////////
https://www.britannica.com/bio…..er-Torrey#
Charles Cutler Torrey, (born Dec. 20, 1863, East Hardwick, Vt., U.S.—died Nov. 12, 1956, Chicago), U.S. Semitic scholar who held independent and stimulating views on certain biblical problems.
Born: December 20, 1863 Vermont
Died: November 12, 1956 (aged 92) Chicago Illinois
Subjects Of Study: Bible Islam Semitic languages
Torrey studied at Bowdoin (Maine) College and Andover (Mass.) Theological Seminary and in Europe. He taught Semitic languages at Andover (1892–1900) and Yale (1900–32), and was founder and first director (1900–01) of the American School of Archaeology (later renamed the American School of Oriental Research) at Jerusalem.
…. In The Translations Made from the Original Aramaic Gospels (1912), The Four Gospels: A New Translation (1933), and Our Translated Gospels (1936), Torrey held that the four Gospels were Greek translations from Aramaic originals. The posthumous Apocalypse of John (1958) argues that Revelation was a translation of an Aramaic original written in AD 68.
/////////////////////////////////////////////
“Is this the same Raphael Lataster, the self-proclaimed ‘ahistoricist scholar’ who now ‘argues that agnosticism over Jesus’ historical existence is more than reasonable, that outright denying Jesus’ historicity is quite fair’ and the logical impossibility of the monotheistic concept?”
Yes– the one and the same.
“That does not seem likely”
Christopher Lancaster aka ‘Raphael Lataster,’ Michael Shermer, and Bart Ehrman were Christians at one point, but presently aren’t Christians.
“Did Younan change his mind about ܓܒܪܐ in Mt 1,16?”
I’m sure his views on the word have changed through the years.
This is from 2016:
peshitta.org, the forum
Paul Younan
Administrator
*******
Posts: 2,812
Threads: 271
Joined: Sep 2003
Reputation: 2
#203-01-2016, 11:05 PM
“Gabra” in all Aramaic dialects just means the generic “man”, in contrast to “Talia” which means “boy.”
So a father and a husband can be referred to as “gabra”.
Hence, it was Mary’s father who shared the same common name as her future husband, and both were properly referred to as her “gabra.”
+Shamasha
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de’Beth-Younan
////////////////////////////////
“Does he still believe in Peshitta primacy?”
Probably not, judging by this:
_Jesus Did Not Exist: A Debate Among Atheists_, Raphael Lataster with Richard Carrier (2015)
https://vdoc.pub/documents/jesus-did-not...q9tkatvja0
2. THE CASE FOR HISTORICITY: CASEY
….
In a section on dating the synoptic Gospels, Casey continues to rail against the likes of amateurs like ‘Blogger Godfrey’ and Acharya S, and notes his own reliance on a ‘special’ type of source.[327]
“Our earliest source, the Gospel of Mark, is also full of peculiarities which are due to his use of sources which were written in Aramaic, the language of Jesus and all of his earliest followers… This is one of many pieces of evidence that parts of Mark’s Gospel were translated from Aramaic sources.”[328]
That didn’t take long. Just like Ehrman, Casey places great importance on hypothetical sources, and partly argues for them on the basis of mistakes caused by the supposedly poor translating skills of the Gospel authors.[329] That is worth repeating. Casey relies on sources that _do not exist_, and apparently, that is perfectly acceptable to New Testament historians.
////////////////////////////////
someone:
From Raphael Lataster’s Facebook page (January 9, 2016):
"Steve Caruso: Caruso and McGrath have brought up the oddity that I used to be a ‘Peshitta primacist’; I used to believe that the NT was originally written in Aramaic, rather than Greek. This is true. I was wrong. I have been wrong before. Such as when I was a Christian and I thought God existed. *ba-dum-tss* I was a Christian then. I was an untrained and unqualified teenager, desperate to hold onto my fundamentalist Christian beliefs. I am no longer Christian, fundamentalist, untrained, or a teenager, so obviously my methods and outlook have changed."
////////////////////////////////
“the more difficult reading, as long as it is not impossible, is most likely the original reading”
Would this be an “impossible” reading?:
from Lataster’s book on Jesus:
[483] Ronald F. Hock, _The Infancy Gospels of James and Thomas: With Introduction, Notes, and Original Text Featuring the New Scholars Version Translation_ (Santa Rosa, CA: Polebridge Press, 1995), p. 109. The surrounding pages portray Jesus’ _Carrie_-style rampage, killing, cursing, and blinding, left and right.
///////////////////////////////
It would be neat to see an interlinear of the Arabic.
Syriac Gospels, British Library, Add. 14467
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_Gos...Add._14467
British Library, Add MS 14467, is a Syriac manuscript of the New Testament, according to the Peshitta version, on parchment. Palaeographic analysis has dated the manuscript to the 10th century.[1]
Description
The manuscript contains the fragments of Gospel of Matthew (folios 1-8) and Gospel of John (folios 9-15), according to the Peshitta version, with Arabic translation, on 15 leaves (10 by 6¾ inches). The writing is in two columns per page, 26-37 lines per page. The Syriac column is written in Nestorian character, with occasional vowel-points and signs of punctuation, the Arabic column has a few diacritical points.[1]
Contents
Matthew 7:22-11:1; 11:22-12:10; 16:21-17:13;
John 8:59-10:18; 16:13-18:3; 19:27-20:25.
The larger sections are marked both in the Syriac and Arabic texts.[1]
The manuscript was brought from the covenant of St. Mary Deipara, in the Nitrian Desert.[1]
The manuscript is housed at the British Library (Add MS 14467) in London.[1]
/////////////////////////////////////
“the more difficult reading, as long as it is not impossible, is most likely the original reading”
Would this be an “impossible” reading?:
Wilson, vol. 1, on 6, for Matthew 1:16
"Jacob begat Joseph, the Joseph to whom was betrothed Mary the Virgin, he begat Jesus, who is called the Messiah." -- Codex Palimpsestus Sinaiticus
/////////////////////////////////////
'Old Syriac' Codex Palimpsestus Sinaiticus has the mistranslation 'Simon the leper' in Matthew 26:6 and again in Mark 14:3. See pages 246 and 328 of Wilson.
We lack Codex Nitriensis Curetonianus for those verses.