10-31-2008, 04:12 PM
Hello Paul,
All the sacrifices in the OT pointed to Y'shua, I believe. There can almost be no doubt about this Paul because before Adam and Eve sinned there was no need for any kind of sacrifice be it a Thanksgiving offering, a peace offering, a wave offering, a sin offering or any other offering. These sacrifices came about as a result of man's sin. All the offerings were for atonement of sin to one degree or another and all pointed to Christ. If not, Paul, we are in trouble and that means we should still be practising them.
Also , Romans 10:4 tells us plainly that Messiah is the end of the Law. But,
as you know, because of man's sin there had to be some kind of death to be accomplished. And all of the OT sacrifices (wahtever kind) required a death.
If Mary is presenting a sacrifice in temple in Luke 2:24 other than some consequense of sin then why in the world did the law require the life of 2 turtledoves or 2 pigeons as a sacrifice?? It was not because she had sinned by giving birth to Y'shua. But mainly because (and think on this) I believe it goes back to the garden upon Eve's transgression when Aloha said that from now on she Eve(the mother of all living) would give birth to offspring in pain. This was a direct punishment and consequense on her and passed down on all women.
No, Mary did not sin bey giving birth and it is not a sin for any women to give birth and have babies. But the travail that is involved is an INDIRECT or a RESIDIAL outcome/consequense because of this. Think of the passage in 1 Timothy by Paul in that women "SHALL BE SAVED IN CHILD BEARING." This is why Mary had to provide and present a sacrifice at the temple in Luke 2:24 of 2 pigions or 2 turtledoves.
If there was no related sin involved or because of the consequense of sin passed down to Mary then why the killing of 2 animals?? ? All the killing of these animals spilled blood. No doubt about that. Well, no blood needed to be spilled if there was no transgression. But in the case of Luke 2:24 blood was spilled.
You said, "Neither was every animal sacrifice in the OT for sin offering either." Well, I would say that NOT all sacrifices in the OT (and here in this context - Leviticus) were called SIN OFFERINGS. But they were all related or tied into some sin being commited directly or as a consequense. I believe all the offerings in the OT and specifically in Levitics were to accomplish atonement to one degree or another. All for sure pointed to Y'shua the Messiah.
Good thing is is that we don't have to do these sacrifices any longer.
Paul, I think we may be getting into something deep here. I have not even begun to get into Hebrews (NT book) but, in my mind, it just can NOT be.
Blood was spilled and in my mind there is only one purpose for blood to be spilled in these sacrifices: to provide atonement for the one who has sinned or because of some transgression in the past carried down to humanity from generation to generation. I believe this latter reason was for Mary's sacrifice in Luke 2:24. No one will say that Mary giving birth to Y'shua was a sin. It just goes back to the garden where the women received her punishment as a result of sin(eating the forbidden fruit).
Paul, I am going to just come out and say that I am not a THEOLOGICAL EXPERT on this subject. I could be off a little and we may be getting into theological subjects that can be lengthy. But as long as the Law of Moshe was in effect this had to be done. and Mary was under the law at the time of her giving birth to Y'shua.
Well, enough on this for now. I will look more into this (Lev-Hebrews) this weekend. BTW, I took a class that was called LEVITICUS-HEBREWS years ago.
Kindly,
Mike
All the sacrifices in the OT pointed to Y'shua, I believe. There can almost be no doubt about this Paul because before Adam and Eve sinned there was no need for any kind of sacrifice be it a Thanksgiving offering, a peace offering, a wave offering, a sin offering or any other offering. These sacrifices came about as a result of man's sin. All the offerings were for atonement of sin to one degree or another and all pointed to Christ. If not, Paul, we are in trouble and that means we should still be practising them.
Also , Romans 10:4 tells us plainly that Messiah is the end of the Law. But,
as you know, because of man's sin there had to be some kind of death to be accomplished. And all of the OT sacrifices (wahtever kind) required a death.
If Mary is presenting a sacrifice in temple in Luke 2:24 other than some consequense of sin then why in the world did the law require the life of 2 turtledoves or 2 pigeons as a sacrifice?? It was not because she had sinned by giving birth to Y'shua. But mainly because (and think on this) I believe it goes back to the garden upon Eve's transgression when Aloha said that from now on she Eve(the mother of all living) would give birth to offspring in pain. This was a direct punishment and consequense on her and passed down on all women.
No, Mary did not sin bey giving birth and it is not a sin for any women to give birth and have babies. But the travail that is involved is an INDIRECT or a RESIDIAL outcome/consequense because of this. Think of the passage in 1 Timothy by Paul in that women "SHALL BE SAVED IN CHILD BEARING." This is why Mary had to provide and present a sacrifice at the temple in Luke 2:24 of 2 pigions or 2 turtledoves.
If there was no related sin involved or because of the consequense of sin passed down to Mary then why the killing of 2 animals?? ? All the killing of these animals spilled blood. No doubt about that. Well, no blood needed to be spilled if there was no transgression. But in the case of Luke 2:24 blood was spilled.
You said, "Neither was every animal sacrifice in the OT for sin offering either." Well, I would say that NOT all sacrifices in the OT (and here in this context - Leviticus) were called SIN OFFERINGS. But they were all related or tied into some sin being commited directly or as a consequense. I believe all the offerings in the OT and specifically in Levitics were to accomplish atonement to one degree or another. All for sure pointed to Y'shua the Messiah.
Good thing is is that we don't have to do these sacrifices any longer.
Paul, I think we may be getting into something deep here. I have not even begun to get into Hebrews (NT book) but, in my mind, it just can NOT be.
Blood was spilled and in my mind there is only one purpose for blood to be spilled in these sacrifices: to provide atonement for the one who has sinned or because of some transgression in the past carried down to humanity from generation to generation. I believe this latter reason was for Mary's sacrifice in Luke 2:24. No one will say that Mary giving birth to Y'shua was a sin. It just goes back to the garden where the women received her punishment as a result of sin(eating the forbidden fruit).
Paul, I am going to just come out and say that I am not a THEOLOGICAL EXPERT on this subject. I could be off a little and we may be getting into theological subjects that can be lengthy. But as long as the Law of Moshe was in effect this had to be done. and Mary was under the law at the time of her giving birth to Y'shua.
Well, enough on this for now. I will look more into this (Lev-Hebrews) this weekend. BTW, I took a class that was called LEVITICUS-HEBREWS years ago.
Kindly,
Mike