07-20-2004, 01:44 AM
Shlama Akhi Otto,
No, it's a very ancient Aramaic dialect spoken primarily in Mesopotamia and the other regions where Mesopotamians were transplanted by the Assyrian Kings (i.e., Samaria and the Galilee) - it's identical with inscriptions we have from Meshikha's time.
Greek Primacists invented the word "Syriac" in an attempt to create a false dichotomy between the language of the Aramaic NT and the language of Jesus. This tactic is downright deceitful. We don't call the language you speak "Californiac", the language we speak "Americaic" just because it differs in vocalization or form from proper British English. Neither do we insist that Shakespeare or Queen Victoria spoke anything other than English.
Why must they give a totally different name (and one based on Greek) to Christian Aramaic as preserved in the Peshitta? I'll tell you why: jealousy.
A short time ago, a professor tried the same line with me - I immediately challenged him to define exactly what "Palestinian Aramaic" was. I wanted solid examples of his imaginary "Palestinian Dialect."
When he couldn't define the grammar in certain terms, I asked him to use the examples of Meshikha's Aramaic as preserved by the Greek NT versions as his basis.....and to demonstrate to me *exactly* how was it different, if at all, from the Aramaic of the Peshitta (what he insisted was "Syriac.")
He backpeddled and said that Meshikha's Aramaic words as preserved in the Greek NT versions were lacking the forms that were different. Yeah, how very convenient for him and his position!
The fact of the matter is that "Palestinian Aramaic" is a myth. There was no one dialect of Aramaic at the time that stretched from Lebanon to Samaria to Galilee to Syria to the Jordan to Jerusalem. Tens, if not dozens, of different (yet related) Aramaic dialects existed at the time. For anyone to claim otherwise, or to suggest that they know exactly which dialect was spoken at any given moment by Meshikha shows either a deep ignorance of the topic, or a deceitful purpose.
There wasn't any one dialect that Meshikha spoke - He spoke them all - He had to. He preached to lots of different people in lots of different areas of 1st-century Israel, Jordan and Syria. These people did not all speak the same dialect of Aramaic. There were lots of different dialects of Aramaic - and I'm sure Meshikha adjusted His dialect to suit the location he was preaching in at any given moment.
My nephew would alternate from his father's dialect (the Tyari dialect) to his mother's dialect (the Tkhuma) depending on who he was talking to when he was just three years old, AND he would switch to English for my wife Donna.
It's not a hard thing for an adult to do. I can switch from any of 8 modern dialects at the drop of a hat (the Tkhuma, Tyari, Jilu, Baz, Diz, Urmia, Elkosh and Mosul) - in addition to the classical archaic Aramaic of the Peshitta. The reason I can speak so many is because I grew up with people and have friends who speak all those different dialects. There are 8 other dialects of modern Aramaic, which I am variously fluent in. I can add a dialect a week if I sit down and compare the nuances of that dialect to my own. It's a simple thing.
That's very inaccurate. According to everything I've ever read, Greek inscriptions are very rare and mostly found on tombs of soldiers, Jewish collaborators like Herod or the Roman aristocracy.
See the tombs listed on the following website by the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs - it lists some of the more famous tombs in Israel from the 2nd temple period.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/History/Early%...-%20Burial
Only one tomb - that of Jason has any Greek inscription on it - and even in this case an Aramaic inscription is there right along with the Greek.
Claiming that Greek was the language spoken in 1st-century Israel just because Rome ruled it is as absurd as claiming that English was the language spoken in India when Britain ruled it. Sure, some educated Indians who lived in the cities learned English - but you wouldn't expect to go out in the countryside and find villagers who inscribed tombstones in English. That's absurd. Maybe 1% of Indians during colonial times could speak the language of the British people. Maybe.
Perhaps you should ask your Greek Primacist friend if there are any Jews today who still speak Greek, or any synagogues that he knows of that recite prayers in 1st-century Greek, as it seems that according to him Greek was such a part of 1st-century Jewish life! <!-- s:dontgetit: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/dontgetit.gif" alt=":dontgetit:" title="Dont Get It" /><!-- s:dontgetit: -->
Take care.
ograabe Wrote:Is the Aramaic of the Peshitta relatively modern Syriac that would not be associated with the First Century Apostles?
No, it's a very ancient Aramaic dialect spoken primarily in Mesopotamia and the other regions where Mesopotamians were transplanted by the Assyrian Kings (i.e., Samaria and the Galilee) - it's identical with inscriptions we have from Meshikha's time.
ograabe Wrote:Would Paul and John have used Palestinian Aramaic rather than Syriac?
Greek Primacists invented the word "Syriac" in an attempt to create a false dichotomy between the language of the Aramaic NT and the language of Jesus. This tactic is downright deceitful. We don't call the language you speak "Californiac", the language we speak "Americaic" just because it differs in vocalization or form from proper British English. Neither do we insist that Shakespeare or Queen Victoria spoke anything other than English.
Why must they give a totally different name (and one based on Greek) to Christian Aramaic as preserved in the Peshitta? I'll tell you why: jealousy.
A short time ago, a professor tried the same line with me - I immediately challenged him to define exactly what "Palestinian Aramaic" was. I wanted solid examples of his imaginary "Palestinian Dialect."
When he couldn't define the grammar in certain terms, I asked him to use the examples of Meshikha's Aramaic as preserved by the Greek NT versions as his basis.....and to demonstrate to me *exactly* how was it different, if at all, from the Aramaic of the Peshitta (what he insisted was "Syriac.")
He backpeddled and said that Meshikha's Aramaic words as preserved in the Greek NT versions were lacking the forms that were different. Yeah, how very convenient for him and his position!
The fact of the matter is that "Palestinian Aramaic" is a myth. There was no one dialect of Aramaic at the time that stretched from Lebanon to Samaria to Galilee to Syria to the Jordan to Jerusalem. Tens, if not dozens, of different (yet related) Aramaic dialects existed at the time. For anyone to claim otherwise, or to suggest that they know exactly which dialect was spoken at any given moment by Meshikha shows either a deep ignorance of the topic, or a deceitful purpose.
There wasn't any one dialect that Meshikha spoke - He spoke them all - He had to. He preached to lots of different people in lots of different areas of 1st-century Israel, Jordan and Syria. These people did not all speak the same dialect of Aramaic. There were lots of different dialects of Aramaic - and I'm sure Meshikha adjusted His dialect to suit the location he was preaching in at any given moment.
My nephew would alternate from his father's dialect (the Tyari dialect) to his mother's dialect (the Tkhuma) depending on who he was talking to when he was just three years old, AND he would switch to English for my wife Donna.
It's not a hard thing for an adult to do. I can switch from any of 8 modern dialects at the drop of a hat (the Tkhuma, Tyari, Jilu, Baz, Diz, Urmia, Elkosh and Mosul) - in addition to the classical archaic Aramaic of the Peshitta. The reason I can speak so many is because I grew up with people and have friends who speak all those different dialects. There are 8 other dialects of modern Aramaic, which I am variously fluent in. I can add a dialect a week if I sit down and compare the nuances of that dialect to my own. It's a simple thing.
ograabe Wrote:That's what my Greek scholar friend claims. He also claims that most of the cemetery headstones in First Century Palestine were engraved in GREEK according to published archeology reports! Hence, Greek was widely used by the First Century Jews.
Otto
That's very inaccurate. According to everything I've ever read, Greek inscriptions are very rare and mostly found on tombs of soldiers, Jewish collaborators like Herod or the Roman aristocracy.
See the tombs listed on the following website by the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs - it lists some of the more famous tombs in Israel from the 2nd temple period.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/History/Early%...-%20Burial
Only one tomb - that of Jason has any Greek inscription on it - and even in this case an Aramaic inscription is there right along with the Greek.
Claiming that Greek was the language spoken in 1st-century Israel just because Rome ruled it is as absurd as claiming that English was the language spoken in India when Britain ruled it. Sure, some educated Indians who lived in the cities learned English - but you wouldn't expect to go out in the countryside and find villagers who inscribed tombstones in English. That's absurd. Maybe 1% of Indians during colonial times could speak the language of the British people. Maybe.
Perhaps you should ask your Greek Primacist friend if there are any Jews today who still speak Greek, or any synagogues that he knows of that recite prayers in 1st-century Greek, as it seems that according to him Greek was such a part of 1st-century Jewish life! <!-- s:dontgetit: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/dontgetit.gif" alt=":dontgetit:" title="Dont Get It" /><!-- s:dontgetit: -->
Take care.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan

