"None of these are convincing. Yes, a father is a man, but that is not a good reason to translate the word ‘man’ with the word ‘father’, not when there is a different word that very clearly means ‘father’ that is not used.
'So a father and a husband can be referred to as ‘gabra’.'
"Yes, fathers and husbands are men, but that does not mean you should translate ‘man’ as ‘father’"
Do you think 'g-b-r-h/ her g-b-r-a' should be translated as 'her husband'?
"The example referred to here is from 1999"
Yes, which is only 20 and not 2,000 years ago.
I saw 'ab'/ father in Qumran's The Genesis Apocryphon, but no g-b-r-a.
I didn't locate an 'ab' in Qumran's fragmentary Targum Job.
https://www.amazon.com/Aramaic-Texts-Qum...004044523/
"It demonstrates only that there can be a multiple words for ‘man’ and a translator may want to indicate this multiplicity in the target language. The real question is why the author of the Peshitta version of Mt 1 used two different words for Joseph"
'Fathered' worked for almost-all of the fatherings. However, one Joseph wasn't a biological father of Mary, so a different word was used: g-b-r-h.
Putting 'father' into google translate and getting the Arabic yields 'ab.' Which is what Hebrew and Aramaic have for 'father.'
Putting 'stepfather' into google translate and getting the Arabic yields "زوج الأم"/ zawj al'umi.
Putting those Arabic words on separate lines, and then getting the English, yields 'husband the mom.'
============================
"More than Delitzsch’s and the Modern Hebrew translations of the Greek?"
I'd wager 'yes,' but my copy of a 'Hebrew Matthew' hasn't arrived yet, and I haven't recently looked.
When I looked a few years ago at a Hebrew Matthew, I didn't notice any rhyming.
"Learn to read Greek"
You know Greek. Is this a correct statement?:
The Greek Matthew Lord's Prayer has rhyming.
"there is no real dispute that Jesus spoke Aramaic"
Is there any dispute about what language Jesus' students:
spoke?
wrote?
==================================
"A more literal translation would be ‘her man’, which is a common way to indicate a husband"
The context is a geneology, with a slew of people fathering other people.
Overlooking the context often yields mistranslations, e.g. with the Greek Matthew 1:16's mistranslation.
"'her man', which is a common way to indicate a husband"
2 instances where ‘her man’ in Aramaic "indicate a husband"?
How did ancient Hebrews indicate a stepfather?
"That is the more precise word for father"
Where in Aramaic Matthew 1 do you see 'ab'?
=================================
"scholarly explanations of these"
"it’s more of a database than a book. You’ll need to travel to Leuven to use it, one of the greatest exegetical libraries in the world. That’s the cost of wanting to learn from the best scholars"
I'm unaware of any good grounds for accepting the 'Marcan priority' hypothesis.
===================================
"What does 'epiousios' mean?"
"Any good commentary (e.g., Davies & Allison, Luz, Bovon, or Fitzmyer) can walk you through the four or five most common interpretations, including at least seven different proposed theories for the original Semitic word here."
=================================
"I don’t use the word ‘rhyming’"
I use it.
"in Matthew you certainly have the same sounding words in Greek: ἡμῶν four times and this same word in different cases four more times. Verbs ending in -έ/ήτω three times.
Lines ending in -α σου three times"
This sounds like rhyming to me: "Lines ending in -α σου three times"
"Extensive alliteration in the central line: τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον· True rhyming in the word endings of the next three lines: ἡμῶν, ἡμῶν, πειρασμόν"
That sounds like rhyming to me.
Is this a correct statement?:
In the Greek Matthew Lord’s Prayer, one set of 3 lines ends with the same sound, and another set of 3 lines ends with the same sound.
====================================
“If the author wanted to specify ‘father’, he would use ܐܒܐ, which the Peshitta uses for the same statement in Lk 11,11”
Do you believe that in the passages below, if Jesus had wanted to specify ‘husband,’ he would have used g-b-r-a?
John 4:16 (modified Etheridge)
http://dukhrana.com/peshitta/analyze_ver...ize=125%25
Jeshu saith to her,
Go, call l'b-ai-l-k-i [to your baal/lord/master],
and come hither.
John 4:18
for five b-ai-l-i-n hast thou had,
and this whom thou now hast is not b-ai-l-k-i;
this hast thou said truly.
≠=======================================
“I don’t use the word ‘rhyming’”
"I use it."
"Despite the fact that I’ve given you good reasons not to."
"This sounds like rhyming to me:
'Lines enn -α σου three times'"
"Usually we use ‘rhyming’ for two different words that nonetheless end the same. This, on the other hand, is repetition of the same word, similar to Hebrew’s repetition of the same suffix. The same word always sounds exactly the same as itself. No great poetic feat in that."
“Extensive alliteration in the central line:
τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον·
True rhyming in the word endings of the next three lines:
ἡμῶν, ἡμῶν, πειρασμόν”
"That sounds like rhyming to me."
"Alliteration is not ‘rhyming’ but it can be stylistic. Note I already said here that second example is true rhyming."
"Is this a correct statement?:
In the Greek Matthew Lord’s Prayer, one set of 3 lines ends with the same sound, and another set of 3 lines ends with the same sound."
"It’s minimally correct but insufficient if you want to understand how these and other aspects of the Greek results in what you call ‘rhyming’ in Hebrew, Aramaic, or Syriac."
If ‘rhyming’ involves "two different words that nonetheless end the same," while "repetition of the same word" doesn't qualify as contributing to 'rhyming,' then it appears to me that the Greek Lord's Prayer has 2 instances of rhyming:
1. σήμερον
ἡμῶν
2. ἡμῶν
πειρασμόν.
That's less rhyming than the Aramaic Luke,
which in turn has less rhyming than the Aramaic Matthew.
https://biblehub.com/texts/matthew/6-9.htm
https://translate.google.com
Westcott and Hort / {NA28 variants}
Πάτερ ἡμῶν ==
ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς· ==
Ἁγιασθήτω τὸ ὄνομά σου, ==
\ἐλθάτω / ἐλθέτω ἡ βασιλεία σου, ==
γενηθήτω τὸ θέλημά σου, ==
ὡς ἐν οὐρανῷ ==
καὶ ἐπὶ γῆς· ==
Τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον· ==
καὶ ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰ ὀφειλήματα ἡμῶν, ==
ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀφήκαμεν τοῖς ὀφειλέταις ἡμῶν· ==
καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν, ==
ἀλλὰ ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ. ==
Westcott and Hort / {NA28 variants}
Páter imón ==
o en toís ouranoís: ==
Agiasthíto tó ónomá sou, ==
\eltháto / elthéto i vasileía sou, ==
genithíto tó thélimá sou, ==
os en ouranó ==
kaí epí gís: ==
Tón árton imón tón epioúsion dós imín símeron: ==
kaí áfes imín tá ofeilímata imón, ==
os kaí imeís afíkamen toís ofeilétais imón: ==
kaí mí eisenénkis imás eis peirasmón, ==
allá rýsai imás apó toú poniroú. ==
Westcott and Hort / {NA28 variants}
Our Father ==
the one in the heavens; ==
Hallowed be thy name, ==
Your kingdom is coming, ==
let your will be done, ==
as in heaven ==
and on earth; ==
Give us this day our daily bread; ==
and forgive us our debts, ==
as we too are left to our debtors; ==
and lead us not into temptation, ==
but deliver us from evil. ==
'So a father and a husband can be referred to as ‘gabra’.'
"Yes, fathers and husbands are men, but that does not mean you should translate ‘man’ as ‘father’"
Do you think 'g-b-r-h/ her g-b-r-a' should be translated as 'her husband'?
"The example referred to here is from 1999"
Yes, which is only 20 and not 2,000 years ago.
I saw 'ab'/ father in Qumran's The Genesis Apocryphon, but no g-b-r-a.
I didn't locate an 'ab' in Qumran's fragmentary Targum Job.
https://www.amazon.com/Aramaic-Texts-Qum...004044523/
"It demonstrates only that there can be a multiple words for ‘man’ and a translator may want to indicate this multiplicity in the target language. The real question is why the author of the Peshitta version of Mt 1 used two different words for Joseph"
'Fathered' worked for almost-all of the fatherings. However, one Joseph wasn't a biological father of Mary, so a different word was used: g-b-r-h.
Putting 'father' into google translate and getting the Arabic yields 'ab.' Which is what Hebrew and Aramaic have for 'father.'
Putting 'stepfather' into google translate and getting the Arabic yields "زوج الأم"/ zawj al'umi.
Putting those Arabic words on separate lines, and then getting the English, yields 'husband the mom.'
============================
"More than Delitzsch’s and the Modern Hebrew translations of the Greek?"
I'd wager 'yes,' but my copy of a 'Hebrew Matthew' hasn't arrived yet, and I haven't recently looked.
When I looked a few years ago at a Hebrew Matthew, I didn't notice any rhyming.
"Learn to read Greek"
You know Greek. Is this a correct statement?:
The Greek Matthew Lord's Prayer has rhyming.
"there is no real dispute that Jesus spoke Aramaic"
Is there any dispute about what language Jesus' students:
spoke?
wrote?
==================================
"A more literal translation would be ‘her man’, which is a common way to indicate a husband"
The context is a geneology, with a slew of people fathering other people.
Overlooking the context often yields mistranslations, e.g. with the Greek Matthew 1:16's mistranslation.
"'her man', which is a common way to indicate a husband"
2 instances where ‘her man’ in Aramaic "indicate a husband"?
How did ancient Hebrews indicate a stepfather?
"That is the more precise word for father"
Where in Aramaic Matthew 1 do you see 'ab'?
=================================
"scholarly explanations of these"
"it’s more of a database than a book. You’ll need to travel to Leuven to use it, one of the greatest exegetical libraries in the world. That’s the cost of wanting to learn from the best scholars"
I'm unaware of any good grounds for accepting the 'Marcan priority' hypothesis.
===================================
"What does 'epiousios' mean?"
"Any good commentary (e.g., Davies & Allison, Luz, Bovon, or Fitzmyer) can walk you through the four or five most common interpretations, including at least seven different proposed theories for the original Semitic word here."
=================================
"I don’t use the word ‘rhyming’"
I use it.
"in Matthew you certainly have the same sounding words in Greek: ἡμῶν four times and this same word in different cases four more times. Verbs ending in -έ/ήτω three times.
Lines ending in -α σου three times"
This sounds like rhyming to me: "Lines ending in -α σου three times"
"Extensive alliteration in the central line: τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον· True rhyming in the word endings of the next three lines: ἡμῶν, ἡμῶν, πειρασμόν"
That sounds like rhyming to me.
Is this a correct statement?:
In the Greek Matthew Lord’s Prayer, one set of 3 lines ends with the same sound, and another set of 3 lines ends with the same sound.
====================================
“If the author wanted to specify ‘father’, he would use ܐܒܐ, which the Peshitta uses for the same statement in Lk 11,11”
Do you believe that in the passages below, if Jesus had wanted to specify ‘husband,’ he would have used g-b-r-a?
John 4:16 (modified Etheridge)
http://dukhrana.com/peshitta/analyze_ver...ize=125%25
Jeshu saith to her,
Go, call l'b-ai-l-k-i [to your baal/lord/master],
and come hither.
John 4:18
for five b-ai-l-i-n hast thou had,
and this whom thou now hast is not b-ai-l-k-i;
this hast thou said truly.
≠=======================================
“I don’t use the word ‘rhyming’”
"I use it."
"Despite the fact that I’ve given you good reasons not to."
"This sounds like rhyming to me:
'Lines enn -α σου three times'"
"Usually we use ‘rhyming’ for two different words that nonetheless end the same. This, on the other hand, is repetition of the same word, similar to Hebrew’s repetition of the same suffix. The same word always sounds exactly the same as itself. No great poetic feat in that."
“Extensive alliteration in the central line:
τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον·
True rhyming in the word endings of the next three lines:
ἡμῶν, ἡμῶν, πειρασμόν”
"That sounds like rhyming to me."
"Alliteration is not ‘rhyming’ but it can be stylistic. Note I already said here that second example is true rhyming."
"Is this a correct statement?:
In the Greek Matthew Lord’s Prayer, one set of 3 lines ends with the same sound, and another set of 3 lines ends with the same sound."
"It’s minimally correct but insufficient if you want to understand how these and other aspects of the Greek results in what you call ‘rhyming’ in Hebrew, Aramaic, or Syriac."
If ‘rhyming’ involves "two different words that nonetheless end the same," while "repetition of the same word" doesn't qualify as contributing to 'rhyming,' then it appears to me that the Greek Lord's Prayer has 2 instances of rhyming:
1. σήμερον
ἡμῶν
2. ἡμῶν
πειρασμόν.
That's less rhyming than the Aramaic Luke,
which in turn has less rhyming than the Aramaic Matthew.
https://biblehub.com/texts/matthew/6-9.htm
https://translate.google.com
Westcott and Hort / {NA28 variants}
Πάτερ ἡμῶν ==
ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς· ==
Ἁγιασθήτω τὸ ὄνομά σου, ==
\ἐλθάτω / ἐλθέτω ἡ βασιλεία σου, ==
γενηθήτω τὸ θέλημά σου, ==
ὡς ἐν οὐρανῷ ==
καὶ ἐπὶ γῆς· ==
Τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον· ==
καὶ ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰ ὀφειλήματα ἡμῶν, ==
ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀφήκαμεν τοῖς ὀφειλέταις ἡμῶν· ==
καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν, ==
ἀλλὰ ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ. ==
Westcott and Hort / {NA28 variants}
Páter imón ==
o en toís ouranoís: ==
Agiasthíto tó ónomá sou, ==
\eltháto / elthéto i vasileía sou, ==
genithíto tó thélimá sou, ==
os en ouranó ==
kaí epí gís: ==
Tón árton imón tón epioúsion dós imín símeron: ==
kaí áfes imín tá ofeilímata imón, ==
os kaí imeís afíkamen toís ofeilétais imón: ==
kaí mí eisenénkis imás eis peirasmón, ==
allá rýsai imás apó toú poniroú. ==
Westcott and Hort / {NA28 variants}
Our Father ==
the one in the heavens; ==
Hallowed be thy name, ==
Your kingdom is coming, ==
let your will be done, ==
as in heaven ==
and on earth; ==
Give us this day our daily bread; ==
and forgive us our debts, ==
as we too are left to our debtors; ==
and lead us not into temptation, ==
but deliver us from evil. ==