03-23-2017, 04:40 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-23-2017, 04:54 PM by gregglaser.)
Mark 10:30 has a famous promise, that disciples who give up good things in this world for the Messiah's sake will receive 100-times more in the world to come. This promise helps show the character of the Father, as One who favors justice and measurement.
Literal Mark 10:30, "There is no man who has left houses or brothers or sisters… because of me and my gospel and not will receive one hundred times the houses and brothers and sisters… ܘܒܥܠܡܐ ("and in the world/age") to come life ܕܥܠܡ ("that is to a world/age").
Notice first that the text says 100-times more in the world to come, not infinitely more.
But secondly (and more importantly to language scholars), Mark 10:30 is a serious reality check to preachers of infinity, because it defines the next world/age as a finite world/age like the present one. The text says so literally if you know how to read Greek or Aramaic. As shown below, the Greek & Aramaic are in total harmony here on the grammar.
The key here is that the literal grammar is specifically saying that the world/age to come is a finite world/age, because we read the definite article ܥܠܡܐ ("the world/age") in the very same expression to expressly define the indefinite ܥܠܡ ("a world/age"). If you don't study language, this fact may not sound important, but it is enormously important. Aramaic and Greek translators who use non-literal definitions are forced to awkwardly ignore this grammar in Mark 10:30 to fit their cherry-picked translations.
That is why Mark 10:30 provides a reality check to preachers of man's infinite soul, and it is the elephant in the room for non-literalists.
The Greek of Mark 10:30 reveals the exact same conclusion as the Aramaic because the Greek also uses the definite article (iota) to qualify the verse "and in αιωνι (ah-ee-on-ee) ("the age/world") that is coming life αιωνιον (ah-ee-on-ee-on) ("age-during")."
By contrast, the non-literal Greek translation of Mark 10:30 is "and in αιωνι (ah-ee-on-ee) ("the age") that is coming life αιωνιον (ah-ee-on-ee-on) ("everlasting")." The non-literal translation doesn't make sense ultimately; it tries to squeeze everlasting life into a single world or age.
Indeed, this Greek word αιωνι (ah-ee-on-ee) (just like the Aramaic ܥܠܡܐ ) is found throughout the gospel translated as "world" and "age". So, it is hypocrisy to try to make the word infinite in Mark 10:30 when it is plainly finite everywhere else in the bible.
So Mark 10:30 is excellent evidence in the gospel to prove that the next age (or world) to come is not everlasting. Again, all ages/worlds are by definition finite or limited in space and time. Only the Father lives indefinitely.
Indeed, Mark 10:30 does not even attempt to limit the Father in any way, it simply provides further support for the proof that the Greek and Aramaic words for age and world are categorically finite. So if the gospel is ever going to describe something eternal or infinite or perpetual, the gospel needs to use different words or special words, rather than just describing a future age or world. And indeed those different and special words are used in the bible but only to describe the Father living perpetually and eternally (i.e., Isaiah 43:10, Psalm 102:25-27), not to describe punishment. Punishment is described exclusively with finite words.
In reading the bible literally, I've never found any promises of unconditional everlasting life. Rather, I only see those statements in ancient secular sources (ie., from the Pharisees and Greek mystics who thought everything was eternal). You can read Greek literature for yourself - they used these words in reference to both 'gods' and 'men' who were killing each other and dying all the time. Here is Philo, "Humans are immortal by reason of their heavenly nature, but just as degrees in this divine nature exist, degrees of immortality also exist."
Many Essenes also preached infinite hell. Yahshua didn't join any of their groups. Instead, He commanded, ܬܘ ܒܬܪܝ ("come after me").
Humans don't understand infinity, and Greek philosophers didn't know either; they were just making it up as they went along, and athanasia was one of the words they liked to throw around.
When an English translation implies absolutes of infinite time and space and power that are not actually stated in the literal gospel text, I do not think it is fair to present those snippets as if they were clear scripture in support of infinite time and space and power.
A clear statement of infinite time would be, 'Every soul continues for time without end, regardless of worlds and ages' <-- not Yahshua's words, but quite easy to find in Greek literature.
You couldn't spin a dradle inside a library in the first century without hitting a book where the author claimed every soul was immortal, the gods were immortal (to the Greeks & Romans), etc. - they expounded in great detail. But, key point, the bible was special because it never said that everything was immortal. That was quite radical about the bible as a religious text. In fact, the bible says repeatedly that all wickedness (not just some) will be destroyed by YHWH. So YHWH was more powerful than the Greek gods. When Matthew 10:28 refers to both "soul and body", that's an affirmation of YHWH's supreme power. That's important to remember as Christians, that the bible was different than Greek and Jewish literature. It is like how we remember that the Jewish temple was special because it did not have idols inside. That fact was quite radical at the time because the temples of every other religion in the world focused on idols.
In reading the bible literally, I see promises about life are specifically in reference to a world/age to come, such as John 10:28, which reads ܘܐܢܐ ܝܗܒ ܐܢܐ ܠܗܘܢ ܚܝܐ ܕܥܠܡ ܘܠܐ ܢܐܒܕܘܢ ܠܥܠܡ ("And I give, I am to them life that is to a world/age, and they will not perish to a world/age")."
This language is a very specific promise about a world/age to come. If the messiah was going to promise that someone will never perish ever, then the text should instead sayܠܐ ܢܐܒܕܘܢ ܡܬܘܡ ("they will not perish ever"), or something similar to that.
In Mark 10:30, why was this worker upset who labored “more”? Was it because his 'infinite time' reward was the same as the other laborer's 'infinite time'? He wanted the other guy to get infinity minus 4 perhaps?? In this parable, why does the Messiah use measured examples, two laborers work for limited hours of the day, and each receive a limited reward of one coin (a dinar = day's wage). Same for the parable of the talents: 5 talents well invested earns that servant a large reward, but not an infinite reward.
Realizing the Father's quality of measurement and proportionality is important. He is a mathematician too.
If the Messiah wants to promise a disciple everlasting life, such that he will never ever fall from grace, then why not use language like this quote from Psalm 102:27, "Your years shall not be ended." The psalmist said it about YHWH. It's easy to say in any language... Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic. Yet we can't find it any of these languages in the literal bible text about anyone other than YHWH.
I think we are supposed to be humble here on earth. We are not supposed to claim, like the Pharisees did, and the Greek mystics did, and the Egyptian sorcerers did, that we are everlasting. We don't get to labor on earth for 70-years or so in exchange for everlasting life. Rather, the best we can do is labor, and pray to be in harmony with He who has perpetual life, and pray we'll stay in harmony as we navigate from age/world to age/world. And know at all times whether we are rising or falling, that YHWH will do justice.
Anything beyond the literal promises in the gospel is just people talking interpretations. And in particular, this leavening of the words "aion" and 'olam' and 'Ealma' has produced some very drunken dogmas over the centuries, as religious men presume they drink from the Babylonian cup of 'immortality'.
How much longer until YHWH pours out that cup?
If someone wants to believe in everlasting life for themselves, fine. Know this though, that preaching has serious consequences. It scared me greatly when I was a very young child (about 6) in Catholic school. I remember sitting in church listening to sermons, and I would close my eyes and try to imagine heaven, and it was frightening to be told I will live in this one place (a white heaven) that just keeps going and going and going and never ends no matter what. You have to realize, I wasn't scared about it in some casual sense. I believed every single word of what the priest was saying. It frightened me, it was bone chilling. I have never wanted an infinite time life; that concept has never set right in my heart as a child or as a Christian adult. Some might say that my heart at age 6 was flawed because it was not in harmony with the bible translation "forever and ever". I don't think so. I didn't even have the mental capacity then to agree to anything regarding infinity of any dimension; to sign up for that experience. I don't think any human has the mental capacity to speak confidently about infinities, let alone agree to go for infinity rides with no exit door.
With that background about me, people will understand better why the literal text of the bible is so comforting to me. It shows the true character of the Father as One who continually transforms His creation through worlds and ages. Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old. And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall חעמד ("stand/endure"). All of them shall become old like a garment. You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended." Only the Father lives perpetually. The Father has the power to destroy my soul if He wants. That comforts me.
Here is another example that proves this point. John 11:25, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me, even if he should die he will live. And whoever lives and believes in me to a world/age will not die."
Once again we see the promise of life is very specifically in reference to the world/age to come. The indefinite form of the word is used ܥܠܡ ("a world/age") rather than the definite form ܥܠܡܐ ("this world/age").
If you depart from the Creator you will eventually die because that which is outside the Creator is destroyed in its appropriate season. See scriptural cites below. Indeed, there are many examples where angels choose to leave the rising and engage in the falling. And in that falling, they do indeed die. Jude 6, Genesis 6, Revelation 12. Ezekiel 28:16-19, brb rklThk mlu Thukd Khms uThKhta uaKhllk mhr alhym uabdk krub hskk mThuk abny aSh gbh lbk bypyk ShKhTh KhkmThk Eal ypEaThk Eal arTs hShlkThyk lpny mlkym nThThyk lrauh bk mrb Eunyk bEaul rklThk KhllTh mqdShyk uauTsa aSh mThukk hya aklThk uaThnk lapr Eal harTs lEayny kl rayk kl yudEayk bEamym Shmmu Ealyk blhuTh hyyTh uaynk Ead Eaulm ("In the abundance of your merchandise they filled the middle of you with violence and you have sinned. And I will cast you as profane from the mountain of Elohim, and destroy you, you covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Was lifted up your heart because of your beauty. You have corrupted your wisdom because of your brightness. Upon the ground I will cast you. Before kings I will lay you, that they may look in you. By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade, you have defiled your sanctuaries. And I will bring forth a fire from the midst. It shall devour you. And I will bring you to ashes on the earth in the eyes of any who see. All who know you among the peoples shall be appalled at the terror you shall be. And you are not age-during.")
And as for man...
Proverbs 12:7, "The wicked are overthrown, and are no more, but the house of the righteous shall stand."
Matthew 10:28, "And awe not of them who slaughter the body and are not able to slaughter the soul: but awe of Him who is able to destroy soul and body in Gehanna, the Valley of Burning."
Proverbs 24:20, "The evil have no future. The lamp of the wicked will go out."
In the psalms, King David describes the wicked "like chaff that the wind drives away… the wicked will perish" (Psalm 1:4 and 1:6). And see how he describes the wicked as dead men that are not even remembered in Psalms 9:6 and 34:16. David explains that the wicked "fade like the grass, and wither like an herb" (Psalm 37:2). They "shall be cut off…and…will be no more; though you look diligently for their place, they will not be there. (Psalm 37:9–10). "The wicked perish…like smoke they vanish away" (Psalm 37:20). "The transgressors shall be altogether destroyed" (Psalm 37:38). The wicked are analogized to finite things like grass, and then the text explains that they are destroyed as finite things are destroyed.
Nahum 1:9-10, "What are you plotting against Yahweh? He will make an utter end; distress shall not rise up a second time…they shall be devoured like fully dried straw."
Malachi 4:1, "Behold, the day is coming, burning like a firepot; and all the proud, and every worker of wickedness shall be chaff. And the coming day will set them ablaze, says Yahweh of Hosts, which will not leave root or branches to them."
Deuteronomy 32:4, "His work is perfect, for all his ways are justice: a God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and right is He."
Psalm 7:11, "God is a righteous judge, And He is not angry at all times."
Jeremiah 17:10, "I Yahweh search all hearts and examine secret motives. I give all people according to their ways, according to what their actions deserve."
Who would presume they deserve everlasting life for infinite time simply because they passed one test with one life on one planet?
I don't see how anyone can claim that they have achieved such 'oneness' with Yahshua on earth that they have a golden ticket to infinite time, and moreover that in navigating infinity permanently attached to God, that they will never fall from grace, regardless of how many angels before them fell from grace as recorded in the bible.
Is YHWH really inviting the Messiah's disciples to become infinitely indestructible? If the Messiah did not promise infinity literally to his apostles, l-e-t-t-e-r f-o-r l-e-t-t-e-r, then it is speculation to put words in his mouth. I mean, who would argue that it is perhaps what he was trying to say, but he just didn't it say it explicitly for some reason?? It would be exponentially easy to say in different ways, 'oh by the way, guys, if you believe in me, I'm going to carry you for infinite time and there is absolutely no way even my Father can destroy you ever.' <-- That would have done the job, but no, that's not in the bible.
Fallen angels are in the bible though, and they previously experienced grace in heaven. A huge portion of the bible is devoted to showing their destruction and death, and then after Revelation 21:8 describes the "second death", they are no longer mentioned in the literal text, because they are dead and gone. It would be an assumption to assume they are not gone.
The most commonly misunderstood verse for immortality of men is Revelation 21:4, ܘܗܘ ܢܠܚܐ ܟܠ ܕܡܥ ܡܢ ܥܝܢܝܗܘܢ ܘܡܘܬܐ ܠܐ ܢܗܘܐ ܡܟܝܠ ܘܠܐ ܐܒܠܐ ܘܠܐ ܪܘܒ ܐܘܠܐ ܟܐܒܐ ܬܘܒ ܢܗܘܐ ܥܠ ܐܦܝܗ
Again, I read letter for letter in the language of the apostles, so here is my hyper-literal translation,"And he will wipe away all/any tears from their eyes, and death/poison/oath will not be thereforward and not mourning/sorrow/penance/truly and not crying/uproar/clamoring/resounding/pleading/contending/rebuking and not pain/suffering/sickness/consumption/adversary again/return will be upon His/its faces." Also note: the phrase "and not" that appears twice in this verse has the alternate translation throughout the bible, "it is proper".
And then on top of that, the word ܡܟܝܠ ("thereforward") is a combination of the roots ܡܢ ("from") and ܟܠ ("any/all"), so the whole verse is naturally dependent on context for meaning (i.e., from who/what/where/when; all/any of who/what/where/when). Here the context is set in terms of new Jerusalem in the new age/world; so that is the specific where and when that sets the context for how "death/poison/oath will not be thereforward," in new Jerusalem in the new age/world. This verse does not say that the new Jerusalem in the new world/age continues for perpetual time or exists outside of time. To claim perpetual time or eternal time from this verse would be an assumption outside the literal text.
ܡܟܝܠ ("now" or "therefore") is used throughout the gospel in a limiting sense to some measurable amount of time or a measurable conclusion in a current world/age. See e.g., Matthew 26:45 (referring to one night's sleep), Mark 11:14 (referring to the present world in comparison to a world to come), Mark 14:41 (same as Matthew 26:45), John 14:30 (messiah says he won't speak again at that time rather than ever again); John 17:11 (messiah says he won't be in the world again at that time rather than ever again). Even the root of the word is ܡܢ ܟܘܠ ("from measurement").
Personally, I would not want to be the guy trying to limit the power of YHWH by arguing, 'well you know, Creator, you can't ever let New Jerusalem be utterly transformed or pass away because uhm my interpretation of Revelation 21:4 is that infinity of its existence was implied by the text even though it doesn't say infinity technically.'
Beware those who claim assumptions and interpretations are real. Just ground yourself with the literal text, and then its plain to see that the promise of life is in a new world/age in the Messiah. And that's a huge and worthwhile promise. You live 70-years on earth, and pass your test with faith & works, and then you inherit a new world/age with all your brethren (everyone gets the same one reward just like in the parable of the servants above: a new world/age in the Messiah). As for what happens specifically in that world/age, and who is rising and who is falling and who is transforming, that is beyond the horizon...
Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old. And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall חעמד ("stand/endure"). All of them shall become old like a garment. You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended."
Here is the actual literal translation of John 11:24-27, "Yeshua said to her, 'Your brother shall arise.' Martha said to him, 'I know that he shall rise in the resurrection in the last day.' Yeshua said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life; whoever trusts in me, even if he dies, he shall live. And any who live and believe in me ܠܥܠܡ ("to a world/age") shall not die. Do you believe this?' And she said to him, 'Yes, my Lord, I do believe that you are The Messiah, The Son of God, who has come into the world.'"
Yahshua specifically set the context -- "to a world/age" -- that is where/when a person will not die. And further, Yahshua was responding to Martha's context, "in the resurrection in the last day". Neither of these two contexts refer explicitly to infinite time or infinite space. Accordingly, the translation "forever" is a non-literal assumption. If Yahshua wanted to refer explicitly to infinite time, he could have done so easily by saying 'time without end'. Or he could have even implied it by saying ܡܬܘܡ ('ever'), but he didn't say that either. He said ܠܥܠܡ ("to a world/age"), which throughout the bible has a 100% consistent meaning in reference to a world or an age. In this manner, the literal text of the bible is flawless.
And when a person is transported "to a world/age" they do not become the entire thing. When you are born on earth for example, you do not become the entire earth. As students of language, we are not allowed to just insert the word "infinity" or "never" or "ever" where the text does not use it. We are not allowed to conjugate the root word "age/world" so that the branch is divorced from the root.
Notice John 8:51-52: "Amen! Amen! I word to you, Whoever guards my word sees not death ܠܥܠܡ ("to a world/age"). So the Judeans word to him, Now we know you have a demon: Abraham is dead — and the prophets: and you — you word, Whoever guards my word, he tastes not death ܠܥܠܡ ("to a world/age")."
Remember, the the Pharisees believed in "forever and ever", and Yahshua had previously told them in John 5:39 that they had the wrong thinking about this concept, "Examine the scriptures: for in them you presume to have life ܕܠܥܠܡ : and these are witnessing concerning me: and you will to not come to me to have life ܕܠܥܠܡ ."
The Pharisees had a habit of assuming infinities and even assuming that ܥܠܡ meant "ever", which is why John 8:51-52 makes sense. They assumed Yahshua was lying because he said ܥܠܡ . If you interpret it literally, then Yahshua is telling the truth. But if you interpret it non-literally (as the Pharisees did), then Abraham will not die ever. Indeed, even Simon Peter used the phrase like the Pharisees in John 13:8, and Yahshua immediately corrected him. Here is the literal John 13:7-8, "Yahshua answers him saying, 'The thing I am doing you know not now: but afterwards you will know. Simon Kapa says to him, ܠܐ ܠܥܠܡ you wash my feet." Yahshua is explicitly advising Peter that Peter doesn't understand what's happening. As Peter was using the term in a figurative sense (that is to mean "ever"), the messiah corrected him, and washed Peter's feet in that very moment. If you are interested in further study here please review the old testament Hebraicism of 'foot washing' as an example of physical renewal, but let's move on...
Notice how in John 10:27-29, Yahshua specifically qualifies that "no man" can destroy someone given to him, "My own sheep hear my voice and I know them: and they come after me and I give them life ܕܠܥܠܡ ("that to a world/age"): and they destruct not ܠܥܠܡ ("to a world/age"), and no human seizes them from my hand. For my Father gave them to me, he is greater than all: and no human is able from the hand of my Father to seize them."
If saved men cannot be destroyed later, why would Yahshua limit his words twice to "no human". Why didn't he say "nothing ever" or "nothing in the universe" or "not even my Father", or anything along those lines to suggest infinite grace? Shall we presume that YHWH himself lacks the power to destroy men who fall from grace? Or if someone shall never fall from grace, then where is the explicit promise of that in the gospel? I think the reason I can't find it in the gospel, is because the bible promises that YHWH transforms everything in its season, and only YHWH (and those who continue to live in Him, namely the Son) lives perpetually. Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old. And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall חעמד ("stand/endure"). All of them shall become old like a garment. You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended."
There is still more to this saga... At the end of the fourth gospel, the beloved disciple makes a special point to challenge the rumor that had gone out among the disciples that the beloved disciple would not die. As we read in John 21:23, "But Yahshua did not say that he [the beloved disciple] would not die, but rather, 'if I desire that this one remain until I return, what is that to you."
Matthew 11:14 regarding John the Baptist, "And if you desire to accept it, this is Elijah who was to come."
Regarding Mark 10:30, an interesting counterargument to my argument would be the text בעלמא דאתא ("in the age to come") is actually referring to the current age of Christianity on earth (i.e., 32AD through the present).
In other words, as you believe in Yahshua the Messiah right now, then חיא דעלמ ("life of the age/world") has come to you right now.
Mark 1:15, "The time is complete. The kingdom of אלהא has arrived. Repent and believe in the gospel."
Matthew 10:7, "And as you are going, preach and say 'The kingdom of heaven has come near."
This counterargument to my Mark 10:30 theory is a logical possibility, as the text of Mark 10:30 is talking about "houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and fields" – we tend to associate these things with our terrestrial experience here on the current earth rather than a future in heaven.
With that said, I also know from scripture that heaven & earth are mysteriously intertwined -- "...let Your kingdom come, and Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven...". So even in this alternate theory of Mark 10:30, the current Christian church age on earth would also be reflected in heaven. And it still emphasizes the greater point that we live from world/age to world/age.
I also want to address Luke 20:28-38…
Imagine Greg Glaser says: "I never eat anything that I don't purchase." <-- by itself out of context in time and location, my statement sounds like I only eat food if I have purchased it myself, regardless of time or place.
But now read the larger context of my statement, "In the grocery store, I browse the bins filled with nuts and fruit. I never eat anything that I don't purchase."
Understood? Good. Now you will see plainly why Luke 20:36 is commonly cited out of context for the proposition that angels cannot die. In reality, the literal text clarifies the specific time and place that angels cannot die, which is in the resurrection or literally "the rising".
Allow me to show this in detail... read Luke 20:36 out of context first so the time and location is beyond your horizon, "For neither can they die again, for they are like The Angels, and they are the children of God..."
Hmm, sounds like immortality out-of-context right? But look what happens when we read the verse in the chapter literally, so we can actually see the precise time and location specified...
Luke 20:28-38, "But some of the Sadducees came, those who say that there is no resurrection, and they asked him, And they were saying to him, "Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man dies and his brother has a wife without sons, his brother shall take his wife, and he shall raise up a son to his brother. But there were seven brothers and the first took a wife and he died without sons. And the second took her for his wife, and he died without sons. And the third again took her and thus also the seven of them, and they died and left no sons. And finally the woman died also. In the resurrection therefore, whose wife will she be, for the seven of them married her?" Yeshua said to them, "The sons of this world take women and women are given to men. But those who are worthy for [/b]that world and for the resurrection from among the dead[/b] are not taking women, neither are women taking men. For neither can they die again, for they are like The Angels, and they are the children of God because they are the children of the resurrection. But that the dead rise, Moses also declared, for he recounts at the bush, when THE LORD said, 'The God of Abraham and the God of Isaaq and the God of Jaqob.' But he was not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all of them were alive to him."
Indeed, there are many examples where angels choose to leave the rising and engage in the falling. And in that falling, they do indeed die. Jude 6, Genesis 6, Revelation 12. Ezekiel 28:16-19 ("And I will cast you as profane from the mountain of Elohim, and destroy you, you covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.... And I will bring forth a fire from the midst. It shall devour you. And I will bring you to ashes on the earth in the eyes of any who see. All who know you among the peoples shall be appalled at the terror you shall be. And you are not age-during.")
Secondly, the context in Luke 20:36 specifies that the reason the angels cannot die is because they are "sons of god". There are several examples in the bible where a being can be a "son of god" and be mortal. See e.g., Hosea 1:10.
Third, reading Luke 20:36 to allow everlasting torment puts the verse directly at odds with Rev 20:14 regarding the second death.
However, reading both verses literally creates no conflict between the verses and remains consistent with the entire bible that teaches that the wage of sin is death and that wickedness is utterly extinguished.
So Luke 20:36 is another example emphasizing that we need to read verses in their entirety and not just snippets of verses, because ignoring even a single word can change an entire sentence. For it is very different to say, "angels cannot die ever" compared to "angels are not able to die in the rising". The first sentence is all encompassing, ever, whereas the second-sentence refers to a limited and defined experience, rising. Again, compare 'falling angels' who do die, and do so repeatedly in the bible.
The biblical principle here is the principle of exchange. In falling to lower dimensions, or fleshly bodies, angels do not die in that one process. But once they have become flesh after that process, they can die.
What about nature? Electromagnetism cannot be destroyed, but it can be converted to energy inside a plant, and that plant can be destroyed. When the electromagnetism is converted to energy in the plant, we do not say that the electromagnetism died. When the plant is placed inside a furnace, we do say that it is utterly extinguished. It would defy logic and language to say the plant experiences everlasting torment in the furnace. Incidentally, it also defies logic and language to say that the original electromagnetism that converted to plant energy is released in the furnace and trapped there as everlasting fuel for the fire.
Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old. And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall חעמד ("stand/endure"). All of them shall become old like a garment. You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended."
Literal Mark 10:30, "There is no man who has left houses or brothers or sisters… because of me and my gospel and not will receive one hundred times the houses and brothers and sisters… ܘܒܥܠܡܐ ("and in the world/age") to come life ܕܥܠܡ ("that is to a world/age").
Notice first that the text says 100-times more in the world to come, not infinitely more.
But secondly (and more importantly to language scholars), Mark 10:30 is a serious reality check to preachers of infinity, because it defines the next world/age as a finite world/age like the present one. The text says so literally if you know how to read Greek or Aramaic. As shown below, the Greek & Aramaic are in total harmony here on the grammar.
The key here is that the literal grammar is specifically saying that the world/age to come is a finite world/age, because we read the definite article ܥܠܡܐ ("the world/age") in the very same expression to expressly define the indefinite ܥܠܡ ("a world/age"). If you don't study language, this fact may not sound important, but it is enormously important. Aramaic and Greek translators who use non-literal definitions are forced to awkwardly ignore this grammar in Mark 10:30 to fit their cherry-picked translations.
That is why Mark 10:30 provides a reality check to preachers of man's infinite soul, and it is the elephant in the room for non-literalists.
The Greek of Mark 10:30 reveals the exact same conclusion as the Aramaic because the Greek also uses the definite article (iota) to qualify the verse "and in αιωνι (ah-ee-on-ee) ("the age/world") that is coming life αιωνιον (ah-ee-on-ee-on) ("age-during")."
By contrast, the non-literal Greek translation of Mark 10:30 is "and in αιωνι (ah-ee-on-ee) ("the age") that is coming life αιωνιον (ah-ee-on-ee-on) ("everlasting")." The non-literal translation doesn't make sense ultimately; it tries to squeeze everlasting life into a single world or age.
Indeed, this Greek word αιωνι (ah-ee-on-ee) (just like the Aramaic ܥܠܡܐ ) is found throughout the gospel translated as "world" and "age". So, it is hypocrisy to try to make the word infinite in Mark 10:30 when it is plainly finite everywhere else in the bible.
So Mark 10:30 is excellent evidence in the gospel to prove that the next age (or world) to come is not everlasting. Again, all ages/worlds are by definition finite or limited in space and time. Only the Father lives indefinitely.
Indeed, Mark 10:30 does not even attempt to limit the Father in any way, it simply provides further support for the proof that the Greek and Aramaic words for age and world are categorically finite. So if the gospel is ever going to describe something eternal or infinite or perpetual, the gospel needs to use different words or special words, rather than just describing a future age or world. And indeed those different and special words are used in the bible but only to describe the Father living perpetually and eternally (i.e., Isaiah 43:10, Psalm 102:25-27), not to describe punishment. Punishment is described exclusively with finite words.
In reading the bible literally, I've never found any promises of unconditional everlasting life. Rather, I only see those statements in ancient secular sources (ie., from the Pharisees and Greek mystics who thought everything was eternal). You can read Greek literature for yourself - they used these words in reference to both 'gods' and 'men' who were killing each other and dying all the time. Here is Philo, "Humans are immortal by reason of their heavenly nature, but just as degrees in this divine nature exist, degrees of immortality also exist."
Many Essenes also preached infinite hell. Yahshua didn't join any of their groups. Instead, He commanded, ܬܘ ܒܬܪܝ ("come after me").
Humans don't understand infinity, and Greek philosophers didn't know either; they were just making it up as they went along, and athanasia was one of the words they liked to throw around.
When an English translation implies absolutes of infinite time and space and power that are not actually stated in the literal gospel text, I do not think it is fair to present those snippets as if they were clear scripture in support of infinite time and space and power.
A clear statement of infinite time would be, 'Every soul continues for time without end, regardless of worlds and ages' <-- not Yahshua's words, but quite easy to find in Greek literature.
You couldn't spin a dradle inside a library in the first century without hitting a book where the author claimed every soul was immortal, the gods were immortal (to the Greeks & Romans), etc. - they expounded in great detail. But, key point, the bible was special because it never said that everything was immortal. That was quite radical about the bible as a religious text. In fact, the bible says repeatedly that all wickedness (not just some) will be destroyed by YHWH. So YHWH was more powerful than the Greek gods. When Matthew 10:28 refers to both "soul and body", that's an affirmation of YHWH's supreme power. That's important to remember as Christians, that the bible was different than Greek and Jewish literature. It is like how we remember that the Jewish temple was special because it did not have idols inside. That fact was quite radical at the time because the temples of every other religion in the world focused on idols.
In reading the bible literally, I see promises about life are specifically in reference to a world/age to come, such as John 10:28, which reads ܘܐܢܐ ܝܗܒ ܐܢܐ ܠܗܘܢ ܚܝܐ ܕܥܠܡ ܘܠܐ ܢܐܒܕܘܢ ܠܥܠܡ ("And I give, I am to them life that is to a world/age, and they will not perish to a world/age")."
This language is a very specific promise about a world/age to come. If the messiah was going to promise that someone will never perish ever, then the text should instead sayܠܐ ܢܐܒܕܘܢ ܡܬܘܡ ("they will not perish ever"), or something similar to that.
In Mark 10:30, why was this worker upset who labored “more”? Was it because his 'infinite time' reward was the same as the other laborer's 'infinite time'? He wanted the other guy to get infinity minus 4 perhaps?? In this parable, why does the Messiah use measured examples, two laborers work for limited hours of the day, and each receive a limited reward of one coin (a dinar = day's wage). Same for the parable of the talents: 5 talents well invested earns that servant a large reward, but not an infinite reward.
Realizing the Father's quality of measurement and proportionality is important. He is a mathematician too.
If the Messiah wants to promise a disciple everlasting life, such that he will never ever fall from grace, then why not use language like this quote from Psalm 102:27, "Your years shall not be ended." The psalmist said it about YHWH. It's easy to say in any language... Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic. Yet we can't find it any of these languages in the literal bible text about anyone other than YHWH.
I think we are supposed to be humble here on earth. We are not supposed to claim, like the Pharisees did, and the Greek mystics did, and the Egyptian sorcerers did, that we are everlasting. We don't get to labor on earth for 70-years or so in exchange for everlasting life. Rather, the best we can do is labor, and pray to be in harmony with He who has perpetual life, and pray we'll stay in harmony as we navigate from age/world to age/world. And know at all times whether we are rising or falling, that YHWH will do justice.
Anything beyond the literal promises in the gospel is just people talking interpretations. And in particular, this leavening of the words "aion" and 'olam' and 'Ealma' has produced some very drunken dogmas over the centuries, as religious men presume they drink from the Babylonian cup of 'immortality'.
How much longer until YHWH pours out that cup?
If someone wants to believe in everlasting life for themselves, fine. Know this though, that preaching has serious consequences. It scared me greatly when I was a very young child (about 6) in Catholic school. I remember sitting in church listening to sermons, and I would close my eyes and try to imagine heaven, and it was frightening to be told I will live in this one place (a white heaven) that just keeps going and going and going and never ends no matter what. You have to realize, I wasn't scared about it in some casual sense. I believed every single word of what the priest was saying. It frightened me, it was bone chilling. I have never wanted an infinite time life; that concept has never set right in my heart as a child or as a Christian adult. Some might say that my heart at age 6 was flawed because it was not in harmony with the bible translation "forever and ever". I don't think so. I didn't even have the mental capacity then to agree to anything regarding infinity of any dimension; to sign up for that experience. I don't think any human has the mental capacity to speak confidently about infinities, let alone agree to go for infinity rides with no exit door.
With that background about me, people will understand better why the literal text of the bible is so comforting to me. It shows the true character of the Father as One who continually transforms His creation through worlds and ages. Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old. And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall חעמד ("stand/endure"). All of them shall become old like a garment. You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended." Only the Father lives perpetually. The Father has the power to destroy my soul if He wants. That comforts me.
Here is another example that proves this point. John 11:25, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me, even if he should die he will live. And whoever lives and believes in me to a world/age will not die."
Once again we see the promise of life is very specifically in reference to the world/age to come. The indefinite form of the word is used ܥܠܡ ("a world/age") rather than the definite form ܥܠܡܐ ("this world/age").
If you depart from the Creator you will eventually die because that which is outside the Creator is destroyed in its appropriate season. See scriptural cites below. Indeed, there are many examples where angels choose to leave the rising and engage in the falling. And in that falling, they do indeed die. Jude 6, Genesis 6, Revelation 12. Ezekiel 28:16-19, brb rklThk mlu Thukd Khms uThKhta uaKhllk mhr alhym uabdk krub hskk mThuk abny aSh gbh lbk bypyk ShKhTh KhkmThk Eal ypEaThk Eal arTs hShlkThyk lpny mlkym nThThyk lrauh bk mrb Eunyk bEaul rklThk KhllTh mqdShyk uauTsa aSh mThukk hya aklThk uaThnk lapr Eal harTs lEayny kl rayk kl yudEayk bEamym Shmmu Ealyk blhuTh hyyTh uaynk Ead Eaulm ("In the abundance of your merchandise they filled the middle of you with violence and you have sinned. And I will cast you as profane from the mountain of Elohim, and destroy you, you covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Was lifted up your heart because of your beauty. You have corrupted your wisdom because of your brightness. Upon the ground I will cast you. Before kings I will lay you, that they may look in you. By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade, you have defiled your sanctuaries. And I will bring forth a fire from the midst. It shall devour you. And I will bring you to ashes on the earth in the eyes of any who see. All who know you among the peoples shall be appalled at the terror you shall be. And you are not age-during.")
And as for man...
Proverbs 12:7, "The wicked are overthrown, and are no more, but the house of the righteous shall stand."
Matthew 10:28, "And awe not of them who slaughter the body and are not able to slaughter the soul: but awe of Him who is able to destroy soul and body in Gehanna, the Valley of Burning."
Proverbs 24:20, "The evil have no future. The lamp of the wicked will go out."
In the psalms, King David describes the wicked "like chaff that the wind drives away… the wicked will perish" (Psalm 1:4 and 1:6). And see how he describes the wicked as dead men that are not even remembered in Psalms 9:6 and 34:16. David explains that the wicked "fade like the grass, and wither like an herb" (Psalm 37:2). They "shall be cut off…and…will be no more; though you look diligently for their place, they will not be there. (Psalm 37:9–10). "The wicked perish…like smoke they vanish away" (Psalm 37:20). "The transgressors shall be altogether destroyed" (Psalm 37:38). The wicked are analogized to finite things like grass, and then the text explains that they are destroyed as finite things are destroyed.
Nahum 1:9-10, "What are you plotting against Yahweh? He will make an utter end; distress shall not rise up a second time…they shall be devoured like fully dried straw."
Malachi 4:1, "Behold, the day is coming, burning like a firepot; and all the proud, and every worker of wickedness shall be chaff. And the coming day will set them ablaze, says Yahweh of Hosts, which will not leave root or branches to them."
Deuteronomy 32:4, "His work is perfect, for all his ways are justice: a God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and right is He."
Psalm 7:11, "God is a righteous judge, And He is not angry at all times."
Jeremiah 17:10, "I Yahweh search all hearts and examine secret motives. I give all people according to their ways, according to what their actions deserve."
Who would presume they deserve everlasting life for infinite time simply because they passed one test with one life on one planet?
I don't see how anyone can claim that they have achieved such 'oneness' with Yahshua on earth that they have a golden ticket to infinite time, and moreover that in navigating infinity permanently attached to God, that they will never fall from grace, regardless of how many angels before them fell from grace as recorded in the bible.
Is YHWH really inviting the Messiah's disciples to become infinitely indestructible? If the Messiah did not promise infinity literally to his apostles, l-e-t-t-e-r f-o-r l-e-t-t-e-r, then it is speculation to put words in his mouth. I mean, who would argue that it is perhaps what he was trying to say, but he just didn't it say it explicitly for some reason?? It would be exponentially easy to say in different ways, 'oh by the way, guys, if you believe in me, I'm going to carry you for infinite time and there is absolutely no way even my Father can destroy you ever.' <-- That would have done the job, but no, that's not in the bible.
Fallen angels are in the bible though, and they previously experienced grace in heaven. A huge portion of the bible is devoted to showing their destruction and death, and then after Revelation 21:8 describes the "second death", they are no longer mentioned in the literal text, because they are dead and gone. It would be an assumption to assume they are not gone.
The most commonly misunderstood verse for immortality of men is Revelation 21:4, ܘܗܘ ܢܠܚܐ ܟܠ ܕܡܥ ܡܢ ܥܝܢܝܗܘܢ ܘܡܘܬܐ ܠܐ ܢܗܘܐ ܡܟܝܠ ܘܠܐ ܐܒܠܐ ܘܠܐ ܪܘܒ ܐܘܠܐ ܟܐܒܐ ܬܘܒ ܢܗܘܐ ܥܠ ܐܦܝܗ
Again, I read letter for letter in the language of the apostles, so here is my hyper-literal translation,"And he will wipe away all/any tears from their eyes, and death/poison/oath will not be thereforward and not mourning/sorrow/penance/truly and not crying/uproar/clamoring/resounding/pleading/contending/rebuking and not pain/suffering/sickness/consumption/adversary again/return will be upon His/its faces." Also note: the phrase "and not" that appears twice in this verse has the alternate translation throughout the bible, "it is proper".
And then on top of that, the word ܡܟܝܠ ("thereforward") is a combination of the roots ܡܢ ("from") and ܟܠ ("any/all"), so the whole verse is naturally dependent on context for meaning (i.e., from who/what/where/when; all/any of who/what/where/when). Here the context is set in terms of new Jerusalem in the new age/world; so that is the specific where and when that sets the context for how "death/poison/oath will not be thereforward," in new Jerusalem in the new age/world. This verse does not say that the new Jerusalem in the new world/age continues for perpetual time or exists outside of time. To claim perpetual time or eternal time from this verse would be an assumption outside the literal text.
ܡܟܝܠ ("now" or "therefore") is used throughout the gospel in a limiting sense to some measurable amount of time or a measurable conclusion in a current world/age. See e.g., Matthew 26:45 (referring to one night's sleep), Mark 11:14 (referring to the present world in comparison to a world to come), Mark 14:41 (same as Matthew 26:45), John 14:30 (messiah says he won't speak again at that time rather than ever again); John 17:11 (messiah says he won't be in the world again at that time rather than ever again). Even the root of the word is ܡܢ ܟܘܠ ("from measurement").
Personally, I would not want to be the guy trying to limit the power of YHWH by arguing, 'well you know, Creator, you can't ever let New Jerusalem be utterly transformed or pass away because uhm my interpretation of Revelation 21:4 is that infinity of its existence was implied by the text even though it doesn't say infinity technically.'
Beware those who claim assumptions and interpretations are real. Just ground yourself with the literal text, and then its plain to see that the promise of life is in a new world/age in the Messiah. And that's a huge and worthwhile promise. You live 70-years on earth, and pass your test with faith & works, and then you inherit a new world/age with all your brethren (everyone gets the same one reward just like in the parable of the servants above: a new world/age in the Messiah). As for what happens specifically in that world/age, and who is rising and who is falling and who is transforming, that is beyond the horizon...
Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old. And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall חעמד ("stand/endure"). All of them shall become old like a garment. You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended."
Here is the actual literal translation of John 11:24-27, "Yeshua said to her, 'Your brother shall arise.' Martha said to him, 'I know that he shall rise in the resurrection in the last day.' Yeshua said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life; whoever trusts in me, even if he dies, he shall live. And any who live and believe in me ܠܥܠܡ ("to a world/age") shall not die. Do you believe this?' And she said to him, 'Yes, my Lord, I do believe that you are The Messiah, The Son of God, who has come into the world.'"
Yahshua specifically set the context -- "to a world/age" -- that is where/when a person will not die. And further, Yahshua was responding to Martha's context, "in the resurrection in the last day". Neither of these two contexts refer explicitly to infinite time or infinite space. Accordingly, the translation "forever" is a non-literal assumption. If Yahshua wanted to refer explicitly to infinite time, he could have done so easily by saying 'time without end'. Or he could have even implied it by saying ܡܬܘܡ ('ever'), but he didn't say that either. He said ܠܥܠܡ ("to a world/age"), which throughout the bible has a 100% consistent meaning in reference to a world or an age. In this manner, the literal text of the bible is flawless.
And when a person is transported "to a world/age" they do not become the entire thing. When you are born on earth for example, you do not become the entire earth. As students of language, we are not allowed to just insert the word "infinity" or "never" or "ever" where the text does not use it. We are not allowed to conjugate the root word "age/world" so that the branch is divorced from the root.
Notice John 8:51-52: "Amen! Amen! I word to you, Whoever guards my word sees not death ܠܥܠܡ ("to a world/age"). So the Judeans word to him, Now we know you have a demon: Abraham is dead — and the prophets: and you — you word, Whoever guards my word, he tastes not death ܠܥܠܡ ("to a world/age")."
Remember, the the Pharisees believed in "forever and ever", and Yahshua had previously told them in John 5:39 that they had the wrong thinking about this concept, "Examine the scriptures: for in them you presume to have life ܕܠܥܠܡ : and these are witnessing concerning me: and you will to not come to me to have life ܕܠܥܠܡ ."
The Pharisees had a habit of assuming infinities and even assuming that ܥܠܡ meant "ever", which is why John 8:51-52 makes sense. They assumed Yahshua was lying because he said ܥܠܡ . If you interpret it literally, then Yahshua is telling the truth. But if you interpret it non-literally (as the Pharisees did), then Abraham will not die ever. Indeed, even Simon Peter used the phrase like the Pharisees in John 13:8, and Yahshua immediately corrected him. Here is the literal John 13:7-8, "Yahshua answers him saying, 'The thing I am doing you know not now: but afterwards you will know. Simon Kapa says to him, ܠܐ ܠܥܠܡ you wash my feet." Yahshua is explicitly advising Peter that Peter doesn't understand what's happening. As Peter was using the term in a figurative sense (that is to mean "ever"), the messiah corrected him, and washed Peter's feet in that very moment. If you are interested in further study here please review the old testament Hebraicism of 'foot washing' as an example of physical renewal, but let's move on...
Notice how in John 10:27-29, Yahshua specifically qualifies that "no man" can destroy someone given to him, "My own sheep hear my voice and I know them: and they come after me and I give them life ܕܠܥܠܡ ("that to a world/age"): and they destruct not ܠܥܠܡ ("to a world/age"), and no human seizes them from my hand. For my Father gave them to me, he is greater than all: and no human is able from the hand of my Father to seize them."
If saved men cannot be destroyed later, why would Yahshua limit his words twice to "no human". Why didn't he say "nothing ever" or "nothing in the universe" or "not even my Father", or anything along those lines to suggest infinite grace? Shall we presume that YHWH himself lacks the power to destroy men who fall from grace? Or if someone shall never fall from grace, then where is the explicit promise of that in the gospel? I think the reason I can't find it in the gospel, is because the bible promises that YHWH transforms everything in its season, and only YHWH (and those who continue to live in Him, namely the Son) lives perpetually. Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old. And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall חעמד ("stand/endure"). All of them shall become old like a garment. You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended."
There is still more to this saga... At the end of the fourth gospel, the beloved disciple makes a special point to challenge the rumor that had gone out among the disciples that the beloved disciple would not die. As we read in John 21:23, "But Yahshua did not say that he [the beloved disciple] would not die, but rather, 'if I desire that this one remain until I return, what is that to you."
Matthew 11:14 regarding John the Baptist, "And if you desire to accept it, this is Elijah who was to come."
Regarding Mark 10:30, an interesting counterargument to my argument would be the text בעלמא דאתא ("in the age to come") is actually referring to the current age of Christianity on earth (i.e., 32AD through the present).
In other words, as you believe in Yahshua the Messiah right now, then חיא דעלמ ("life of the age/world") has come to you right now.
Mark 1:15, "The time is complete. The kingdom of אלהא has arrived. Repent and believe in the gospel."
Matthew 10:7, "And as you are going, preach and say 'The kingdom of heaven has come near."
This counterargument to my Mark 10:30 theory is a logical possibility, as the text of Mark 10:30 is talking about "houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and fields" – we tend to associate these things with our terrestrial experience here on the current earth rather than a future in heaven.
With that said, I also know from scripture that heaven & earth are mysteriously intertwined -- "...let Your kingdom come, and Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven...". So even in this alternate theory of Mark 10:30, the current Christian church age on earth would also be reflected in heaven. And it still emphasizes the greater point that we live from world/age to world/age.
I also want to address Luke 20:28-38…
Imagine Greg Glaser says: "I never eat anything that I don't purchase." <-- by itself out of context in time and location, my statement sounds like I only eat food if I have purchased it myself, regardless of time or place.
But now read the larger context of my statement, "In the grocery store, I browse the bins filled with nuts and fruit. I never eat anything that I don't purchase."
Understood? Good. Now you will see plainly why Luke 20:36 is commonly cited out of context for the proposition that angels cannot die. In reality, the literal text clarifies the specific time and place that angels cannot die, which is in the resurrection or literally "the rising".
Allow me to show this in detail... read Luke 20:36 out of context first so the time and location is beyond your horizon, "For neither can they die again, for they are like The Angels, and they are the children of God..."
Hmm, sounds like immortality out-of-context right? But look what happens when we read the verse in the chapter literally, so we can actually see the precise time and location specified...
Luke 20:28-38, "But some of the Sadducees came, those who say that there is no resurrection, and they asked him, And they were saying to him, "Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man dies and his brother has a wife without sons, his brother shall take his wife, and he shall raise up a son to his brother. But there were seven brothers and the first took a wife and he died without sons. And the second took her for his wife, and he died without sons. And the third again took her and thus also the seven of them, and they died and left no sons. And finally the woman died also. In the resurrection therefore, whose wife will she be, for the seven of them married her?" Yeshua said to them, "The sons of this world take women and women are given to men. But those who are worthy for [/b]that world and for the resurrection from among the dead[/b] are not taking women, neither are women taking men. For neither can they die again, for they are like The Angels, and they are the children of God because they are the children of the resurrection. But that the dead rise, Moses also declared, for he recounts at the bush, when THE LORD said, 'The God of Abraham and the God of Isaaq and the God of Jaqob.' But he was not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all of them were alive to him."
Indeed, there are many examples where angels choose to leave the rising and engage in the falling. And in that falling, they do indeed die. Jude 6, Genesis 6, Revelation 12. Ezekiel 28:16-19 ("And I will cast you as profane from the mountain of Elohim, and destroy you, you covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.... And I will bring forth a fire from the midst. It shall devour you. And I will bring you to ashes on the earth in the eyes of any who see. All who know you among the peoples shall be appalled at the terror you shall be. And you are not age-during.")
Secondly, the context in Luke 20:36 specifies that the reason the angels cannot die is because they are "sons of god". There are several examples in the bible where a being can be a "son of god" and be mortal. See e.g., Hosea 1:10.
Third, reading Luke 20:36 to allow everlasting torment puts the verse directly at odds with Rev 20:14 regarding the second death.
However, reading both verses literally creates no conflict between the verses and remains consistent with the entire bible that teaches that the wage of sin is death and that wickedness is utterly extinguished.
So Luke 20:36 is another example emphasizing that we need to read verses in their entirety and not just snippets of verses, because ignoring even a single word can change an entire sentence. For it is very different to say, "angels cannot die ever" compared to "angels are not able to die in the rising". The first sentence is all encompassing, ever, whereas the second-sentence refers to a limited and defined experience, rising. Again, compare 'falling angels' who do die, and do so repeatedly in the bible.
The biblical principle here is the principle of exchange. In falling to lower dimensions, or fleshly bodies, angels do not die in that one process. But once they have become flesh after that process, they can die.
What about nature? Electromagnetism cannot be destroyed, but it can be converted to energy inside a plant, and that plant can be destroyed. When the electromagnetism is converted to energy in the plant, we do not say that the electromagnetism died. When the plant is placed inside a furnace, we do say that it is utterly extinguished. It would defy logic and language to say the plant experiences everlasting torment in the furnace. Incidentally, it also defies logic and language to say that the original electromagnetism that converted to plant energy is released in the furnace and trapped there as everlasting fuel for the fire.
Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old. And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall חעמד ("stand/endure"). All of them shall become old like a garment. You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended."