01-01-2009, 08:05 PM
Thanks for your response above, I'll chew on it a bit....
So, would any or all of the Messianic groups active today believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still given by God and to be a part of the believer's life and in the gatherings of believers...not just one or two, but all the gifts mentioned in the NT. I wonder how much of this is present or not present and if it is allowed or forbidden.
AGR:
Shlama Akhi Thirdwoe,
I do not think these issues have arisen to the top halachic (legal) discussion tier in terms of developing a fixed positional formula. My belief is that the majority would look at say tongues as I have translated it in Mari, sometimes referring to spiritual origins and other times man made languages, depending on context. It is not all one or the other. I think both the benefits and pitfalls of the Chrarismatic positions are laid out in Scripture, and therefore represented fairly among the Nazarenes. It is a middle ground though between those who may elevate that gift excessively and those who would deny their complete relevance post apostolic age.
The Nazarene service does not in my experience have a specified place to encourage angelic communication, but some manifesting or outpouring of the Ruach, while not anticipated officially, is not necessarily ignored if it does happen.
Next:
And speaking of Y'Shua as being more than a Man.... After reading some of Mr. Bauscher's translations, (which I don't say is of no use) I see that it shows that Y'shua is revealed as YHWH or Mar-Ya...which I have always understood as being God, The Father of Y'shua His Son.
AGR:
The Aramaic clearly reads this way. 1 Cor 12:3 reads, "MarYah haw Eshoa" or "YHWH is Y'shua"; however the route to understanding that must not stop there, for as the verse also says, this understanding can ONLY come through the Ruach haKodesh. Y'shua the Messiah has the Ruach of YHWH (aka "The Holy Spirit") in dwelling separately and side by side with his humanity, and it that aspect, not his human nefesh that Y'shua says clearly will die, that is YHWH.
If his translation is right about this, then it would seem that God, The Father has never given us His proper name and that it was The Son of God who spoke to Moses on the Mount at Sinai.
AGR:
Sorry, I must very strongly disagree with you on that. The Father has ALWAYS revealed His Proper Name and well before Moses too. Genesis 4 says men began calling on the name of YHWH very early, and the understanding as to why it seems the Torah says otherwise is beyond the scope of my answer. Suffice to say for the moment that the "revelation" of the Name is not just the syllable and sound; but the meaning and purpose behind it. That is why Abram (exalted father) later becomes Abraham (father of many nations). The same is true of YHWH's name--the purpose of it is revealed to Moses.
What the Gospels add though is that Y'shua and YHWH's name ARE ONE AND THE SAME. I suggest a detailed read of John 17, particularly verse 11. Y'shua's name is to be understood as a call to affirming YHWH's salvation (Matthew 1:21), through the separate office of His Son.
Next:
And Y'shua seems to always call Him Father and instructed us to call on Him that way as well when we prayed.
AGR:
And Y'shua isn't talking to himself when he does pray. Contrary the opinion of Bauscher, Y'shua does directly refer to His Father not just as "Father" but as YHWH, when quoting Psalm 110 for example, and in other places.
Next:
I also read once from Justin Martyr I believe, that the Father has no name, so I wonder if this is right. I know I am wandering off here from the above question, which is my main concern...but it is a biggy if this is true that the Aramaic makes this plain....
AGR:
Obviously you know I wouldn't look at Justin as a credible source. He is,in fact totally ignorant of the 300+ times when we are commanded in Tanakh to call on, shout, sing, laud, extol, play with instruments and make joyful noise on the Name of YHWH. I suggest a re-reading of Exodus 15:1-2, Psalm 68:1-4 (Yah is YHWH there), and surely the statement in Isaiah 42:9 expects us to make some attempt to call on His Name: "I am Yodh-Hey-Waw-Hey, that is My Name, and I will not give My Glory to other (gods) or My praise to idols." That verse, to my mind, means any title uses for pagan deities which is not directly also sanctioned by YHWH as general enough to apply to Him (El, Adon, etc)in the Torah, must be spurious. This would include all Greek titles to be sure, and a few others I suppose could be deemed "neutral", but that's another story.
There is some debate on the finer points of its pronunciation (I have a particular view of course) but there should be no doubt that the YAH part is valid and that MarYah means "Master Yah/YHWH". I do not want to address the whole Yahuah, Yehovah, and other positions here. I deal with them extensively elsewhere.
YHWH is not the author of confusion, and whatever the controversy we know 100% that His name wasn't to be pronounced as "LORD" and there was no "J" around either. Hope this helps!
So, would any or all of the Messianic groups active today believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still given by God and to be a part of the believer's life and in the gatherings of believers...not just one or two, but all the gifts mentioned in the NT. I wonder how much of this is present or not present and if it is allowed or forbidden.
AGR:
Shlama Akhi Thirdwoe,
I do not think these issues have arisen to the top halachic (legal) discussion tier in terms of developing a fixed positional formula. My belief is that the majority would look at say tongues as I have translated it in Mari, sometimes referring to spiritual origins and other times man made languages, depending on context. It is not all one or the other. I think both the benefits and pitfalls of the Chrarismatic positions are laid out in Scripture, and therefore represented fairly among the Nazarenes. It is a middle ground though between those who may elevate that gift excessively and those who would deny their complete relevance post apostolic age.
The Nazarene service does not in my experience have a specified place to encourage angelic communication, but some manifesting or outpouring of the Ruach, while not anticipated officially, is not necessarily ignored if it does happen.
Next:
And speaking of Y'Shua as being more than a Man.... After reading some of Mr. Bauscher's translations, (which I don't say is of no use) I see that it shows that Y'shua is revealed as YHWH or Mar-Ya...which I have always understood as being God, The Father of Y'shua His Son.
AGR:
The Aramaic clearly reads this way. 1 Cor 12:3 reads, "MarYah haw Eshoa" or "YHWH is Y'shua"; however the route to understanding that must not stop there, for as the verse also says, this understanding can ONLY come through the Ruach haKodesh. Y'shua the Messiah has the Ruach of YHWH (aka "The Holy Spirit") in dwelling separately and side by side with his humanity, and it that aspect, not his human nefesh that Y'shua says clearly will die, that is YHWH.
If his translation is right about this, then it would seem that God, The Father has never given us His proper name and that it was The Son of God who spoke to Moses on the Mount at Sinai.
AGR:
Sorry, I must very strongly disagree with you on that. The Father has ALWAYS revealed His Proper Name and well before Moses too. Genesis 4 says men began calling on the name of YHWH very early, and the understanding as to why it seems the Torah says otherwise is beyond the scope of my answer. Suffice to say for the moment that the "revelation" of the Name is not just the syllable and sound; but the meaning and purpose behind it. That is why Abram (exalted father) later becomes Abraham (father of many nations). The same is true of YHWH's name--the purpose of it is revealed to Moses.
What the Gospels add though is that Y'shua and YHWH's name ARE ONE AND THE SAME. I suggest a detailed read of John 17, particularly verse 11. Y'shua's name is to be understood as a call to affirming YHWH's salvation (Matthew 1:21), through the separate office of His Son.
Next:
And Y'shua seems to always call Him Father and instructed us to call on Him that way as well when we prayed.
AGR:
And Y'shua isn't talking to himself when he does pray. Contrary the opinion of Bauscher, Y'shua does directly refer to His Father not just as "Father" but as YHWH, when quoting Psalm 110 for example, and in other places.
Next:
I also read once from Justin Martyr I believe, that the Father has no name, so I wonder if this is right. I know I am wandering off here from the above question, which is my main concern...but it is a biggy if this is true that the Aramaic makes this plain....
AGR:
Obviously you know I wouldn't look at Justin as a credible source. He is,in fact totally ignorant of the 300+ times when we are commanded in Tanakh to call on, shout, sing, laud, extol, play with instruments and make joyful noise on the Name of YHWH. I suggest a re-reading of Exodus 15:1-2, Psalm 68:1-4 (Yah is YHWH there), and surely the statement in Isaiah 42:9 expects us to make some attempt to call on His Name: "I am Yodh-Hey-Waw-Hey, that is My Name, and I will not give My Glory to other (gods) or My praise to idols." That verse, to my mind, means any title uses for pagan deities which is not directly also sanctioned by YHWH as general enough to apply to Him (El, Adon, etc)in the Torah, must be spurious. This would include all Greek titles to be sure, and a few others I suppose could be deemed "neutral", but that's another story.
There is some debate on the finer points of its pronunciation (I have a particular view of course) but there should be no doubt that the YAH part is valid and that MarYah means "Master Yah/YHWH". I do not want to address the whole Yahuah, Yehovah, and other positions here. I deal with them extensively elsewhere.
YHWH is not the author of confusion, and whatever the controversy we know 100% that His name wasn't to be pronounced as "LORD" and there was no "J" around either. Hope this helps!
Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
Andrew Gabriel Roth