11-07-2008, 12:27 AM
Jeremy and Paul,
Now Jeremy, After reading your posts I would now have to say that if we are to accept a reading in Luke 2:22 of ''THEIR'' then it would make much more sense that Joseph and Mary would be referenced in the "THEIR" and not Mary and Y'shua. The context in Luke does seem to point out that Joseph was with Mary during the cycle of "Mary's impurity" in Luke 2.
But nothing is said for this kind of situation in Leviticus 12. Only the woman(wife) is involved. Jeremy, could you site the passage in Leviticus where, where upon the physical contact of the husband on/to the wife, he becomes unclean??? I believe I read this a long time ago but do not know exactly where to go. But what about his own purification process and what kind of sacrifice or offering was he to bring according to the Torah?? Is it something other than what Mary offered in Luke 2:24?? If it is then there could be interpretive ramifications to this.
Paul, I read Leviticus 12 this past weekend. I believe I should say that the offering /sacrifice of Mary in Luke 2:24 was for some kind of atonement. Almost no question now because: Lev 12:6 says, "When the days of her purification are fulfilled, whether for a son or a daughter, she shall bring to the priest a LAMB ...(wow!!! And who is the LAMB of Aloha who takes away the sin of the world?? ?? ??) ... of the first year as a burnt offering, and a young pigeon or a turtldove as a SIN OFFERING , to the door of the tabernacle of meeting. vs. 7 Then he shall offer it before the ALOHA and make ATONEMENT for her. And she shall be clean from the flow of her blood."
But vs. 8 "And if she is not able to bring a lamb, then she may bring 2 turtledoves or 2 young pigeons - one as a burnt offering and the other as a SIN offering. SO THE PRIEST SHALL MAKE ATONEMENT FOR HER AND SHE WILL BE CLEAN."
We may really need to talk about this more. All along we have been discussing this and neither of us has gone back to really take a closer look at Lev. 12
I think the very big, big question is this: Is the purification process of Mary in Luke 2:22 tied in with this burnt offering and SIN OFFERING (wow!!) that Mary accomplishes in Luke 2:24 in which (now we know for sure) that the priest offers up for an ATONEMENT??
If this is so then the ''THEIR'' in Luke 2:22 is either for Mary and Joseph only and y'shua is excluded. Or if the "THEIR'' in Luke 2:22 is referencing Mary and Y'shua in mind then we are now in some big trouble. Ever heard of the saying we are in a creek w/o a paddle??
For Aramaic Primacy supporters we shall be in a swamp with not only no paddle but a steady leak in the boat. This would make the Greek manuscripts which read "now according to the days of HER purification. . . ." correct and we might as well close the books for Aramaic Primacy and go home and go to bed.
But what if the ''THEIR'' in Luke 2:22 is referencing Joseph and Mary?? Where in the Torah (as I asked Jeremy above) does it say that (upon Joseph coming into contact with Mary) Jospeh is unclean and must undergo a purification process?? And what offerings must he provide AND BRING BEFORE THE PRIEST??? If he has an altogether different process with different offerings to bring before the priest then Mary's offerings in Luke 2:22 just will not do; right Paul and Jeremy??
Maybe we can untangle this. Yeah??
Of course in Lev. the woman (Lev. 12) is to bring a LAMB to the priest and a turtledove (or pigeon.) In this case because she is poor (from what we can tell of the circumstances) and is NOT able to bring a lamb. She brought 2 turtldoves or 2 pigeons IN PLACE OF THE LAMB.
Yes, Paul and Jeremy. This was a sin offering (Ref. above again of John's words that Y'shua was the LAMB OF ALOHA who takes away the SIN of the world. Right??)
The burnt offering and sin offering was to MAKE ATONEMENT for her.
Anyone wish to respond?? Am I overlooking something??
Thank-you guys;
Kindly,
Mike Karoules
Now Jeremy, After reading your posts I would now have to say that if we are to accept a reading in Luke 2:22 of ''THEIR'' then it would make much more sense that Joseph and Mary would be referenced in the "THEIR" and not Mary and Y'shua. The context in Luke does seem to point out that Joseph was with Mary during the cycle of "Mary's impurity" in Luke 2.
But nothing is said for this kind of situation in Leviticus 12. Only the woman(wife) is involved. Jeremy, could you site the passage in Leviticus where, where upon the physical contact of the husband on/to the wife, he becomes unclean??? I believe I read this a long time ago but do not know exactly where to go. But what about his own purification process and what kind of sacrifice or offering was he to bring according to the Torah?? Is it something other than what Mary offered in Luke 2:24?? If it is then there could be interpretive ramifications to this.
Paul, I read Leviticus 12 this past weekend. I believe I should say that the offering /sacrifice of Mary in Luke 2:24 was for some kind of atonement. Almost no question now because: Lev 12:6 says, "When the days of her purification are fulfilled, whether for a son or a daughter, she shall bring to the priest a LAMB ...(wow!!! And who is the LAMB of Aloha who takes away the sin of the world?? ?? ??) ... of the first year as a burnt offering, and a young pigeon or a turtldove as a SIN OFFERING , to the door of the tabernacle of meeting. vs. 7 Then he shall offer it before the ALOHA and make ATONEMENT for her. And she shall be clean from the flow of her blood."
But vs. 8 "And if she is not able to bring a lamb, then she may bring 2 turtledoves or 2 young pigeons - one as a burnt offering and the other as a SIN offering. SO THE PRIEST SHALL MAKE ATONEMENT FOR HER AND SHE WILL BE CLEAN."
We may really need to talk about this more. All along we have been discussing this and neither of us has gone back to really take a closer look at Lev. 12
I think the very big, big question is this: Is the purification process of Mary in Luke 2:22 tied in with this burnt offering and SIN OFFERING (wow!!) that Mary accomplishes in Luke 2:24 in which (now we know for sure) that the priest offers up for an ATONEMENT??
If this is so then the ''THEIR'' in Luke 2:22 is either for Mary and Joseph only and y'shua is excluded. Or if the "THEIR'' in Luke 2:22 is referencing Mary and Y'shua in mind then we are now in some big trouble. Ever heard of the saying we are in a creek w/o a paddle??
For Aramaic Primacy supporters we shall be in a swamp with not only no paddle but a steady leak in the boat. This would make the Greek manuscripts which read "now according to the days of HER purification. . . ." correct and we might as well close the books for Aramaic Primacy and go home and go to bed.
But what if the ''THEIR'' in Luke 2:22 is referencing Joseph and Mary?? Where in the Torah (as I asked Jeremy above) does it say that (upon Joseph coming into contact with Mary) Jospeh is unclean and must undergo a purification process?? And what offerings must he provide AND BRING BEFORE THE PRIEST??? If he has an altogether different process with different offerings to bring before the priest then Mary's offerings in Luke 2:22 just will not do; right Paul and Jeremy??
Maybe we can untangle this. Yeah??
Of course in Lev. the woman (Lev. 12) is to bring a LAMB to the priest and a turtledove (or pigeon.) In this case because she is poor (from what we can tell of the circumstances) and is NOT able to bring a lamb. She brought 2 turtldoves or 2 pigeons IN PLACE OF THE LAMB.
Yes, Paul and Jeremy. This was a sin offering (Ref. above again of John's words that Y'shua was the LAMB OF ALOHA who takes away the SIN of the world. Right??)
The burnt offering and sin offering was to MAKE ATONEMENT for her.
Anyone wish to respond?? Am I overlooking something??
Thank-you guys;
Kindly,
Mike Karoules