Stoning to death

[Spyridon]

I've been reading the books of Moses, and there are a great deal of sins that call for stoning a person to death. Being Torah observant, is there any sin in modern times that calls for capital punishment? And what do non-Messianic Jews believe regarding stoning, since they claim to be the only true Torah-observant Jews?

[Andrew Gabriel Roth]

Shlama Akhi Spyridon,

I am not sure what you mean by us Netzarim claiming to be the only "truly Torah observant Jews". Jews frequently and violently disagree and remain Jews, like Hillel and Shammai. Evidence is now emerging in fact that much early Talmudic evidence of high influence between Nazarenes and Rabbinics (Acts 6:7) was edited out of the official record, starting in about CE 90 and throughout the second century. I get into that in Mari and don't want to delve too deep on that now.

But since I am also a musician, let me answer this question in parody. Call it the "Gospel According to Robert Zimmerman", aka Bob Dylan:

"Ev'ry body will get stoned"

They'll stone you when you when you've taken human life
They'll stone you for sleeping with another's wife
They'll stone you when you're cursing in His Name
Or giving children up to Molech's flames

Now I would not be too upset and moan.
Ev'ry body will get stoned!

They'll stone you if you curse your Mom and Dad
They'll stone you for taking all your neighbor has
They'll stone you if you dare to lie in court
Or persecute a stranger just for sport

Now I would not be too upset and moan.
Ev'rybody will get stoned!

They'll stone you if you commune with the dead
They'll stone you for the blasphemies you've said
They'll stone you for having incest on your cot
Or bringing to shame YHWH's great Shabbat

Now I would not get too upset and moan.
Every'body will get stoned!

Now my friends you need to understand, not wail
For Scripture demands equal weights and scales
For so many things Torah says we'll die
Except that for the Grace of Yah go I

So if you never sinned then you are alone
And only then can you cast that stone!
****

In other words, the concept of death being the result of sin is eternal, but the method of that death has shifted. Israel used to execute her own but now YHWH is our executioner according to His will and YHWH has declared the soul that sins shall die (Ezekiel 18:4). This is still true now, since the Temple is no longer standing. Over teh breadth of Scripture though YHWH has employed quite a few methods to do this:

1) Expel Adam and Eve from Paradise and away from the Tree of Life.
2) Wipe out the wicked with a flood, but save Noah and family.
3) Cut back the length of human life to 120 years.
4) Warnings from the beginning of Genesis to Exodus 20 on conduct that causes life and death.
5) After Golden Calf, purify away from that wicked generation, wander in wilderness for 40 years.
6) Set up nation of Israel with Torah/blessings/warnings.
7) Set up Judges for Israel with Torah/blessings/warnings.
<!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) --> Set up Monarchy for Israel with Torah/blessings/warnings.
9) Warn divided kingdom with exhortations from prophets.
10) Destroy the Northern Kingdom, but promise to re-establish back through David.
11) Destroy the Southern Kingdom, but bring back after 70 years.
13) Send last Tanakh prophets to re-confirm message and re-constitute worship in Second Temple, but again with warnings.
14) Send Messiah (finally)!
15) Send Apostles, with warnings/blessings, etc.
16) Get their message BACK.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth

[Spyridon]

What I am asking is whether Rabbinic Jews, who consider themselves to be the true followers of the law, still stone their friends and family members for not keeping it. And, if so, what would a Messianic Jew say of this. I'm sorry for not being clear enough. I've been posting on an Orthodox Jewish forum, and they claim to follow the law in every detail. Wouldn't that include stoning?

[Amatsyah]

Shlama Spyridon,

The "law" that they are claiming to follow in every detail does not refer to the Tanakh (Old Testament) / Torah ("Law"). The "law" that they are claiming to follow in every detail, is the Talmudic law. Technically it should be rendered lower-case "torah" ("law"), but to the Orthodox and especially Ultra-Orthodox, there is an invariable reference to Talmudic law as "Torah" (or, "Law"). Once this is understood, then things start getting cleared up a whole lot. This used to be a confusion of mine, as well. This "law" is what Yeshua (Jesus) referred to in the Gospels, and often times the Apostle Paul as well, as being the "traditions of the elders" and the "learned commandments of men", etc. It was in Yeshua's day still not yet codified on paper; it was known as the "oral torah", as received along with the Written Torah, from God through Moses, at Mt. Sinai. This is what the NT also refers to as a legend/story/folklore/fable of the Jews; no such historical event is recorded in, nor even hinted at, in the Written Scriptures. "Stoning" is a question that the Written Law directly addresses, although the now-written "oral law" (a paradox, don't ya think?!) is amongst other things like a massive commentary on the Written Scriptures, and delves into many issues such as these, at length. But the short answer is, Orthodox and even Ultra-Orthodox Jews do not today practice stoning, of anyone.

Hope this helps,

Brother Ryan

[Spyridon]

The same kind of retaliation that the nation of Israel regularly practicies, even against nonviolent Palestinian Christians, reminds me of living under Mosaic law. Would you agree?

[Amatsyah]

I would disagree. Why? If anyone desires to consider themself an Israelite, but does not do what God expects of an Israelite to do, then they are by definition not an Israelite. In other words, what does God's Scripture require of a man to be considered a member of Israel - that is, "Israel" as in how Torah defines her: a physical and spiritual entity of people, who by keeping the commandments of their God (the God YHWH), are thereby deemed His People; His Kingdom; His Body; His Bride; His Nation - a Nation separated from all other nations of the earth unto Himself? The answer, of course, is obvious. Scripture and the same God Who inspired It requires of His Israelites obedience to His commands, which are revealed in the Written Scriptures He gave to them in lightenings and thunderings from Mt. Sinai. If and when any of Israel breaks their end of the covenantal Torah contract, and continues on in unrepentance, then they lose their inheritance, because they deny the very Promises they themselves originally promised to enter into. The way back into these Promises, through Yeshua, is ONLY BY REPENTANCE.

Thereby, if you're tracking with me here, any individual or for that matter entity of people comprising themselves by name as "Israel", who do not display the Scriptural demands for this rightful title, are by definition NOT ISRAEL. In other words, a person or people can have genetic descent from the ancient Hebrews of Palestine, and yet simultaneously through their own rebellion deny themselves their SPIRITUAL inheritance. And for that matter, if you're paying attention to what Torah Itself says, rather than what religious tradition says, then you'll notice that ever so clearly, Torah Itself makes provisions for ANY and ALL living people, regardless as to ethnicity or nationality, of joining Israel and becoming an Israelite. One does this by making the decision to wholeheartedly accept upon themselves the Law (Torah) of YHWH, and put away from themselves ANY AND ALL OTHER laws, Talmudic included (the Talmud is to only be perused for reference, as with any other non-Scriptural religious text). The Torah was given from Mt. Sinai as the Covenantal Contract between YHWH and man. Thereby in not keeping It, one does not uphold their love towards YHWH, and cannot be considered a Covenant-keeper. If one does not keep covenant with YHWH, then He does not know them, nor they Him. I do however make the room for God's Grace, wherein I've drawn plenty for myself personally, through Yeshua's perfect and atoning Sacrifice, for our inescapable sins, and also the Grace for GROWING into all knowledge, understanding, and thus application of His Law to our lives. Order + Space. That's how see it.

So if you're still tracking with me here, you should be getting the sense by now that very few people on this planet seem to be manifestly displaying these characteristics as prescribed by God Himself, for a person called His Own. Certainly, whatever nation inhabits the downsized plot of ground over in the Middle East which is accused today of being "Israel", is certainly not the "Israel" that God calls true Israel. If they would desire to become what they claim to be, then they would put away from themselves all of their sins, their political agendas, their secular government, their bribery, their murders, their unjust retaliations, their micro-managing of the Arab population, their police state, their chauvinism, and their fraudulent claims to being God's People who have a right to "their" Land. If they would like it back, then God has prescribed the proper methodology for this occurrence: Repentance. So regardless as to whether a man be a Judahite, Levite, Benjamite, Reuvenite, Danite, or any other blood descendant of Jacob, they are lawfully forbidden from their Land until they corporately repent before God for the sins by which they have been and remain exiled. Repentance has consistently been THE ONLY remedy that God has accepted from Israel for return out of exile back to her Land, all throughout the Scriptures. Nothing has changed. And the fruits of the "Israeli state" more than demonstrate this truth today. A U.N. declaration and Zionism is not the power of prophecy. YHWH's Presence is. And It only has shown up throughout Scriptural history at the beckon of a rebellious People of God breaking down and casting aside their selfishness and ways of the world, and travailing out to Him in corporate repentance for their sins against Him.

So no, what is going on over in the Holy Land is not even remotely Scriptural, as per the kind of retaliation that the "nation of Israel" regularly practices. And it does not remind me of living under the Mosaic Law.

Considerately,

Ryan

[Spyridon]

It reminds me of Mosaic law in the sense that it's eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. I agree with you that the nation of Israel today is not so in God's eyes.

[Christina]

The same kind of retaliation that the nation of Israel regularly practicies, even against nonviolent Palestinian Christians, reminds me of living under Mosaic law. Would you agree?

It reminds me of Mosaic law in the sense that it's eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. I agree with you that the nation of Israel today is not so in God's eyes.

Perhaps YHWH would be more merciful to the Palestinian Christians if they STOPPED yoking themselves with the Muslims:

2 Corinthians 6:14-15 And you should be not yoke-fellows to those who do not believe. For what fellowship has justification with wickedness or what communion has light with darkness? Or what agreement has Christ with Satan? Or what part has he who believes with him who does not believe?

[Spyridon]

What evidence do you have that they yoke themselves with Muslims? And how is forcing churches that have existed for centuries to shut down, where thousands of pilgrims once flocked, a just retaliation against anything Palestinian Christians have done? Your post demonstrates ignorance that you should be willing to admit. Palestinian Christians are persecuted by Israelis and Muslims alike.

[*Albion*]

My Brother Ryan,

I'm going to quote from Romans 11:1-5:

1. But I say, "has God rejected his people?" Let it not be so! For I am also from Israel. I am from the seed of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2. God has not rejected his people, who previously were known by him. Or do you not know what he said in the scripture about Elijah when he was complaining to God about Israel? and he said: 3. My Lord, they have killed your prophets and have pulled down your altars and I am left alone and they seek my life. 4. And it was said to him by revelation: Behold, I have reserved for myself seven thousand men who have not kneeled on their knees and have not worshipped Baal. 5. So also in this time, a remnant is left by the calling of grace.

This is from Janet Magiera's Peshitta translation.

I think it is especially important to look at verse 1, where Paul/Sha'ul says, "has God rejected his people? Let it not be so!" As you know from our conversations, I have done a lot of thinking and a lot of reading about the modern state of Israel.

As I told you, only 20% of the people that live in modern Israel believe that there is a God. I think that this statistic says it all. But then if you look at what Paul says, "has God rejected his people," and then he affirms the verse with "Let it not be so!," this plainly says to me that God is still in covenant with His people, Israel.

The political situation in modern Israel is very, very complex. There are days I can see both sides of the issues pretty plainly, and there are other days when I wonder why the IDF doesn't wipe their enemies from the face of the earth.

You seem to think, if I understand you correctly, that the modern nation of Israel is not of God's doing. I would have to strongly disagree with you about this conclusion.

The Jewish people are back in their own land as prophesied in the Tanakh. It is my opinion that their enemies, who completely surround them, will never drive them from the land again. And I'll tell you why--because in the End of Days, Messiah Yeshua will literally come out of the clouds, and personally fight their enemies and the forces of the anti-messiah.

But it will only be then that they finally say, "Blessed is he that comes in The Name of YHWH."

In my opinion, the Remnant of Israel that is left at this time will be the fulfillment of Paul's writing, and then all of Israel will be saved. I think that there's a chance that this Remnant will be a very small number, but nevertheless, it will equate to "ALL of Israel will be saved."

Now, I would like to address a couple of the issues in your fine post.

When we used to have the Sundance Channel on our TV, I saw a program dealing with how the Palestinian people were being treated by Israeli border guards as they went back and forth from Israel. I can honestly tell you that I felt sorry for the Palestinian people in the way that they were treated, the harassment and contempt and lack of decency on behalf of those Israeli border guards.

Now I know about all the terrorist bombings that happen because of the so-called Palestinian movement, how many innocent Israelis have been murdered on buses, in discos, in restaurants, and in other places where people frequent. I find this horrific and unfathomable.

There is so much hate and frustration on both sides of this very difficult issue, that I don't ever foresee an end to it. I think that the terrorist bombings will continue along with other acts of terrorism against the Israeli people, and I think that the Israelis hating the Palestinians and treating them with utter contempt will continue, as well.

Once a month I get a mailing from Maoz Israel, from a congregation of Messianic Jews (known as Tifret Yeshua) in Tel Aviv, Israel. The thing that I have seen from this congregation is the only way out of this horrid situation is for both sides to accept Yeshua as Messiah. Then Arabs and Jews can worship together and love each other as brothers. This is the ONLY way out of this mess. Unfortunately, although there are 10,000 Messianic believers in Israel now, I think the chance of most Israelis becoming Messianic believers is VERY slim.

I honestly think that it will take the time of Jacob's Troubles to come upon them, for true spiritual understanding to arise. I think that it's likely that thousands of Israelis may die during this time. I hope that this doesn't happen, but the prophetic writings seem to indicate that this is what's going to happen. Or so I read in the Scriptures.

I honestly think that it will only be when Yeshua appears in the sky that the vast majority of the Israeli people that are left at that time will finally understand that this is He whom they pierced and come to believe in Messiah.

But until then, in spite of Israel's spiritual stubbornness, their lack of belief, and their complete secular-ness, that they are still beloved as Paul said for the sake of the patriarchs. I don't believe that God has broken covenant with the Israeli people and I think the fact that modern Israel exists at all is PROOF that God loves the Jewish people, and has a special plan for them.

I think the fact that the desert has bloomed, and the modern nation of Israel supplies most of Europe with fruit and flowers, says that a miracle occurred with this nation. No one but God can create such miracles. Yes, satan can counterfeit some miracles, but I do not believe that this is the hand of satan, but is the arm of the Most High.

I want you to understand that we can agree to disagree and still be agreeable, that you are my brother in spite of anything that we disagree on, but having said this, I think that you are very wrong about the modern state of Israel, and God's relationship with it.

Please read this and reply if you'd like. I would enjoy seeing your response to my post.

"Blessed is He who comes in The Name of YHWH".

Your Brother in Messiah, Albion

I would disagree. Why? If anyone desires to consider themself an Israelite, but does not do what God expects of an Israelite to do, then they are by definition not an Israelite. In other words, what does God's Scripture require of a man to be considered a member of Israel - that is, "Israel" as in how Torah defines her: a physical and spiritual entity of people, who by keeping the commandments of their God (the God YHWH), are thereby deemed His People; His Kingdom; His Body; His Bride; His Nation - a Nation separated from all other nations of the earth unto Himself? The answer, of course, is obvious. Scripture and the same God Who inspired It requires of His Israelites obedience to His commands, which are revealed in the Written Scriptures He gave to them in lightenings and thunderings from Mt. Sinai. If and when any of Israel breaks their end of the covenantal Torah contract, and continues on in unrepentance, then they lose their inheritance, because they deny the very Promises they themselves originally promised to enter into. The way back into these Promises, through Yeshua, is ONLY BY REPENTANCE.

Thereby, if you're tracking with me here, any individual or for that matter entity of people comprising themselves by name as "Israel", who do not display the Scriptural demands for this rightful title, are by definition NOT ISRAEL. In other words, a person or people can have genetic descent from the ancient Hebrews of Palestine, and yet simultaneously through their own rebellion deny themselves their SPIRITUAL inheritance. And for that matter, if you're paying attention to what Torah Itself says, rather than what religious tradition says, then you'll notice that ever so clearly, Torah Itself makes provisions for ANY and ALL living people, regardless as to ethnicity or nationality, of joining Israel and becoming an Israelite. One does this by making the decision to wholeheartedly accept upon themselves the Law (Torah) of YHWH, and put away from themselves ANY AND ALL OTHER laws, Talmudic included (the Talmud is to only be perused for reference, as with any other non-Scriptural religious text). The Torah was given from Mt. Sinai as the Covenantal Contract between YHWH and man. Thereby in not keeping It, one does not uphold their love towards YHWH, and cannot be considered a Covenant-keeper. If one does not keep covenant with YHWH, then He does not know them, nor they Him. I do however make the room for God's Grace, wherein I've drawn plenty for myself personally, through Yeshua's perfect and atoning Sacrifice, for our inescapable sins, and also the Grace for GROWING into all knowledge, understanding, and thus application of His Law to our lives. Order + Space. That's how see it.

So if you're still tracking with me here, you should be getting the sense by now that very few people on this planet seem to be manifestly displaying these characteristics as prescribed by God Himself, for a person called His Own. Certainly, whatever nation inhabits the downsized plot of ground over in the Middle East which is accused today of being "Israel", is certainly not the "Israel" that God calls true Israel. If they would desire to become what they claim to be, then they would put away from themselves all of their sins, their political agendas, their secular government, their bribery, their murders, their unjust retaliations, their micro-managing of the Arab population, their police state, their chauvinism, and their fraudulent claims to being God's People who have a right to "their" Land. If they would like it back, then God has prescribed the proper methodology for this occurrence: Repentance. So regardless as to whether a man be a Judahite, Levite, Benjamite, Reuvenite, Danite, or any other blood descendant of Jacob, they are lawfully forbidden from their Land until they corporately repent before God for the sins by which they have been and remain exiled. Repentance has consistently been THE ONLY remedy that God has accepted from Israel for return out of exile back to her Land, all throughout the Scriptures. Nothing has changed. And the fruits of the "Israeli state" more than demonstrate this truth today. A U.N. declaration and Zionism is not the power of prophecy. YHWH's Presence is. And It only has shown up throughout Scriptural history at the beckon of a rebellious People of God breaking down and casting aside their selfishness and ways of the world, and travailing out to Him in corporate repentance for their sins against Him.

So no, what is going on over in the Holy Land is not even remotely Scriptural, as per the kind of retaliation that the "nation of Israel" regularly practices. And it does not remind me of living under the Mosaic Law.

Considerately,

Ryan

[Amatsyah]

Shlama dear akhi Albion,

Thank you incredibly much for your sincere and considerate response to what I posted. Frankly, I???ve been expecting hell to pay for what I shared. And what I have shared is by the way not agreed upon by many, if not most, Nazarenes either. Like you, I???ve given the STATE of Israel much, much thought. I never used to question the concept; not one, single, iota. I didn???t dare. It seems that anyone who even shares a wiff of a second opinion on it, is automatically deemed ???anti-semitic???. Which is a crock of you-know-what! The very Jewish Yeshua and His followers admonished us to test ALL things; not just the ones that don???t include second-guessing what we???ve been spoon-fed for years on end, about a Jewish State.

Now, my personal wonderings began as more or less profound philosophical concepts creeping up on me. The notion was too absurd for me to second-guess. I tried to open up a very small discussion on the issue with a fellow Nazarene one night, and I got the same type of treatment that you have gotten from certain Christian churches for simply being you! That is HOW sensitive this thing really is. And unfortunately, most people who seem to take alternative views on this issue, do seem to be anti-semitic, at least in the sense of anti-Jewish. See, the paradox here, is that to even say ???anti-Semitic???, is to automatically include all SEMITES, which include the Arab people! Ironic, don???t you think? I guess a better term could have been arrived at, but at least everyone knows what is being meant.

A really good question to start with might be, to ask WHY so many people would be ???anti-semitic???, all throughout history, into our day today. The answer is not always so pretty for the Semitic-side of the equation either, you know. Yes, people will be ???racist??? (hey ??? I thought we were all one race ??? the Human Race!) as well, for NO apparent good reason, as I???ve experienced personally; but I also have discovered from a socio-anthropological survey of history that often times when entire groups of people are despised by other entire groups, it does involve VALID reasons ??? though not always, so don???t take me wrong.

There is an incredible amount of prejudice to be found in the Jewish Talmud, if one reads and understands it. You, for instance, my dear brother, are included in there under the moniker ???Minim???, amongst other masking terms. Remember, it wasn???t Rome nor the Syrians who prompted the Christ to be crucified; it was His own people. I personally cannot tolerate prejudice of ANY kind, whether it???s anti-Semitic, anti-African, anti-Asian, anti-Caucasian, or for that matter, shall we try to describe Jewish chauvinism as ???Semitism??? or with some such term? Yes, I???m looking at the WHOLE picture here, and excusing NO ONE for their sinfulness. In fact, reading Scripture???s rebukes reveals a telltale pattern: God is most concerned with the behavior of HIS people; He already knows that the lawless are naturally going to behave as without law! But He has given His People HIS Law ??? the Torah ??? and they unanimously shouted ???AMEN??? towards the Mountain top at Sinai where He gave them His Law.

Truly, this earth is bleeding the way it is, because of the rebellion of the People of God, against their God! He purposely set up His People/Nation Yisrael to be a Kingdom of Priests, so that by its holiness, it would stand out amongst all the nations of the earth, and by its Light, attract the filthy and lawless goyim (Heb. for ???gentiles??? / ???nations???) about the same way that a bug zapper at night attracts all the bugs. THIS is the original and beautiful Blueprint Design as masterfully crafted by the Master Architect, and implemented through His Set-Apart (lit. for ???holy???) People: 12 Tribes, which derived from 12 sons of one man, Jacob, whom God Himself named Israel. Whoever would call themselves Israel, should look like their ancestor that they invoke. And Israel truly did know God.

Of course, as you shall soon see, once MARI is released, our scholar Andrew will have lain out clearly, this perpetual Covenant concept from Mt. Sinai, through Abraham, through Shem, through Noah, through Adam, as seen through the 1st Century Nazarene Writings of Jewish Apostles, how exactly the Culmination Himself, Yeshua, came to the Prodigal Son (the 10 divorced Tribes of Israel) to call them Home (draw to Himself), and reinstitute their ability to officially become part of the Kingdom again, by offering the Divine requirement for this Divine mutual Covenant: Himself ??? so that they could be grafted back in. See, Yeshua was raised up upon a piece of wood for a reason; remember Ezekiel???s ???two sticks??? in the one Hand of God? Well, as no longer part of the Kingdom of Israel, the divorced and earth-scattered 10 Tribes, now swallowed up by the nations and themselves becoming and looking like gentiles (all in the same word, ???goyim???), those 10 Tribes (House of Ephraim/Joseph/Israel) now needed a new representative, metaphorical, ???stick??? by which to be represented by. It is no prophetic mistake or coincidence that Yeshua was nailed to a ???tree???. He was literarily-metaphorically (symbolically) crucified upon the rebellious Northern Kingdom of Israel itself: ???Ephraim??? (used as a brief collective descriptor).

???All of Israel??? shall be saved ??? the ???Whole House???/all 12 Tribes shall be saved.

Also, as I mentioned previously, by definition, one must meet the requirements of being called an ???Israelite??? to in fact be considered an Israelite.

An unbelieving Jewish person is, technically, not an Israelite, since they are not a believer. Being born from the blood of Avraham saves no man. Yeshua rebuked the Pharisees for this chauvinistic error. Yet indeed, a Jewish person who does believe, is most certainly an Israelite, because they believe; and it is of benefit to them as Sha???ul stated, because to them ??? to the Judahite Tribes (Judah, Benjamin, Levi) ??? were entrusted the Oracles of God. What is meant by this, is this:

When the rest of the Tribes of corporate Israel befouled themselves, YHWH ???set-apart??? these filthy rebels to the North. He kept corralled to Himself in the South of the Land, near Jerusalem the place of the Temple, His faithful ones (the Judahites, Benjamites, Levites) who remained ???set-apart???/holy unto Him. This is WHY the Kingdom (singular) was divided. To separate His blemished sheep away from the rest of the Flock, without destroying them (for His Name???s sake).

Eventually, the Northern Kingdom got so bad, that He finally divorced them altogether, and expelled them from the Land. What was left, was ???the Remnant??? of Israel ??? the Southern Kingdom ??? the Levites, Benjamites, and Judahites, the Judahites under whom the others were corporately categorized, and thence later on came to be referred in short to as, the ???Jews???. Of course, what cannot be forgotten is that this whole picture is not so black-and-white, which actually is an effective remedy to such things as British Israelism, or for that matter, Jews-only-ism. Intertribal marriages, and defections of certain tribal members to others for reasons especially related to Covenant-faithfulness. You had a lot of Reuben down there with Judah, in other words. And aside from this, since YHWH???s Plan was for the Kingdom of Israel Herself to be a Light to all the world, meaning that those from the nations who wanted to attach themselves to Israel and renounce their sinful lifestyles, did so. They chose a Tribe (and therefore geographic locale) to proselyte themselves to, wherein through sojourner-ship as a ???ger??? (proselyte/sojourner), they entered the Grace of learning the Torah Covenantal terms of living the holy life that made them a set-apart People; a Kingdom of Priests to YHWH, God above all national gods. Therein, you could technically find Egyptian and Canaanite blood, but just as in Ireland, once you???re a citizen, you???re REALLY a citizen! And that???s why they were continued to be called ???Hebrews??? ??? the ones-who???ve-crossed-over ??? even though technically not every single member of the community blood-derived from Aramea.

Anyway, as I said, the Northern 10 Tribes were divorced, leaving ???the Jews??? as now the total summation of ???Israel???. They were all that was left. They were entrusted the Oracles of YHWH, the prophets of YHWH, the priests of YHWH, and the curatorship of the Temple. Everything, in other words, was now theirs. The Jews have never been divorced from YHWH, which makes being born a Jew somewhat a momentous thing. However, it is also a dangerous thing. See, soon enough after Ephraim???s divorce, Judah???s sins not only increased to high hell (not that she was perfect to begin with!), but actually superseded Ephraim???s! What a dilemma on God???s hands! Yet, for the sake of His Holy Name (alone), He did not and has not ever divorced her. So you see, dear brother Albion, I am no replacement theologian, nor a dispensationalist. And certainly not racist; the most beautiful believer I???ve had the privilege of knowing, is our very-Jewish brother Andrew, who just so happened to key me in onto what Scripture REALLY teaches about the ???church??? and Scriptural continuity, from which I derive my conclusions (but not to say that he necessarily agrees with everything I might say here).

So, in relation to the modern state of ???Israel???, I have picked up on the trail of my original philosophical suspicions, and simply followed the evidence, to wherever it decided to lead me. It isn???t pretty, brother! To clarify, by ???suspicions??? I???m talking about lining up what I see God describing in His Scripture about what Yisrael should look like, and how this current state looks like. I???ve pondered the prophecies, and inevitably found it kind of difficult ??? on a, shall we say, subjective, philosophical level ??? to believe that the same God of Scripture would fulfill His own prophecies of old, in our current day, in a method that has resulted in what we can currently see going on over in that State this very day. Not only that, but one of the biggest problems, has to do with geography. See, the BIBLICAL borders of Israel are NOT what we have today. One may think that the Gaza Strip is a big deal ???.. well, they need to confer a biblical atlas! Reread the Torah, and learn of ITS boundaries. And aside from that, how could a godless people who still has not repented (I love your 20% example!) hear the whistle of God to return? And that doesn???t even factor in the element to prophecy of THE OTHER part of Israel ??? the non-Jewish Tribes who Yeshua died on the Stake/Stick for, in order to fulfill the Divine???s Own demand (as laid out quite superbly by Christina in another thread) for remarriage to His Bride that He had already divorced (Torah forbids this)!

So, granting that the Jews that we consider to be Jews today, are in fact true Jews by blood (which some scholars claim to contest), that still does not give them YHWH???s right to FORCIBLY take back their Land, unless YHWH is leading them! And just about every evangelical and otherwise believing institution on planet earth would have us all immediately believe that 1948 and even 1967 are Scripture-pegged PROOFS of God???s Divine Intervention. Yet, once the evidence is thoroughly conferred, the conclusion actually begs to differ ??? both on the more theo-philosophical level, as well as on the empirical level. Without leaving you hanging out to dry here, I think I know the perfect place for consideration on this topic; one that actually manages to avoid sincere anti-semitism (which I also care to avoid):

Let???s say you were introduced to a man, a believer, a real hard worker, who???s always and still does love his Jewish brethren from the bottom of his heart, but had an unction, perhaps similar to my own, that ???something??? wasn???t right about current ???Israel???. Let???s also say that this man just so happened to be the very reason that our nation, the United States of America, now has the National Day of Prayer. Let???s say that he was even invited by the President of the United States himself to attend the inauguration of this new National Day of Prayer, for his acknowledgment to being the reason for this new institution (of which I???ve participated in college gatherings around the flag pole in years past), along with a handshake and all. A true believer, not a squib, whose devotion to Christ has been for real, and his love unbiased. Would you consider such a man trustworthy enough to hear him out, with video documentary footage and written documentation alike, covering this issue at the very risk of his life ??? and from a non-Nazarene approach to-boot?

If so, then I am more than willing to share with you this real-life man???s name, his works ???.. and if they???re thought-provoking enough for you, an entire grocery list of scholarly works and abundant documentation revealing the true story behind the formation of the current ???State of Israel???, in light of its prophetic claims. I feel a certain risk myself just bringing up the issue, but it???s for real. The evidence is real, and not something I???m pulling out of a hat. Nevertheless, the most important fundamental aspect to all of current political analysis, sociological interpretation, and ethnic as well as ethical consideration, is that the Scriptures of YHWH God of the One Bride Israel, be not abandoned at any moment when allowing [y]our own prejudices, and especially presuppositions, to be gently challenged, by dissenting voices. I know you know what I mean. Alas, how many things have you (we) come to learn already, that were not at first what they appeared to be? Something profound to think about right there!

Otherwise, dear akhi, allow me to expose some prophetic truths that you already do discern:

The thing that I have seen from this congregation is the only way out of this horrid situation is for both sides to accept Yeshua as Messiah. Then Arabs and Jews can worship together and love each other as brothers. This is the ONLY way out of this mess.

In my opinion, the Remnant of Israel that is left at this time [Jacob???s trouble] will be the fulfillment of Paul???s writing, and then all of Israel will be saved. I think that there???s a chance that this Remnant will be a very small number, but nevertheless, it will equate to ???ALL of Israel will be saved.???

And remember, one has to by definition look like and actually be an Israelite, which is through faith alone, in order to be one, and thereby in order to be saved. In that sense, the Scripture is almost redundant (all of Israel [they who trust in YHWH] will be saved). That brings up Sha???ul???s point that a true Jew, is one spiritually. Being of the blood of Avraham, and in lineage from the smoking mountain top of Sinai, is not good enough. More than half of Israel alone was divorced, remember, for her flagrant disbelief! The warning is severe indeed!

The political situation in modern Israel is very, very complex.

But then if you look at what Paul says, ???has God rejected his people,??? and then he affirms the verse with ???Let it not be so!,??? this plainly says to me that God is still in covenant with His people, Israel.

Amein! Just remember your statement above this one, when I wish you to consider this next statement:

You seem to think, if I understand you correctly, that the modern nation of Israel is not of God???s doing. I would have to strongly disagree with you about this conclusion.

And it certainly doesn???t surprise me. Just about everyone does strongly disagree with this conclusion. But it is not really my conclusion; it is the conclusion I???ve come to share with a small populace of unpopular investigators of hard evidence, tracing the Zionist movement back to its roots, the U.N. back to its roots, the American involvement back to its roots, the British involvement back to its roots, and plumbing family lines of financiers and political movers behind these operations. If one were to contend that the 6-Day War were a miracle, I???d ask you to remember first whose toys Israel uses (ours), and what date the American public were privied to the reality of the SR-71???s existence. You remember our mutual agreement that nothing that sensitive is disclosed to the public until roughly 20-30 years or more after its operationality? And how long in development the technology was to begin with? And WHY the public is finally made awares? Because, of course, that cutting technology has become obsolete, and something magnificently more potent is in current operation. It takes years for ???lucky??? investigators to gain access to enough tidbits to even produce low-budget documentaries on, with merely speculative conclusions.

Yet, line up what evidence there is, for whatever it is being evaluated, alongside Scripture, and watch very carefully what is drawn out of Scripture concerning the issue. Perhaps something. Perhaps something obscure. But it???s never nothing. Either that, or we???re not listening long enough. If we want to know how prophecy should look when in the midst of it, then we???re going to have to comb Scripture until we can recite It. And on the side, we need to be careful students of current events and socio-political trends. Moses was lined up as vice-regent to Egypt in his day. Daniel excelled in the very courts of Babylon. Thus saith YHWH: ???My People perish for lack of knowledge/understanding.??? Remember? What history forgets, gets repeated. So I give you your space to disagree, if you wouldn???t mind giving me the space to take another look?

I honestly think that it will take the time of Jacob???s Troubles to come upon them, for true spiritual understanding to arise.

Probably; unfortunately. But I also see it as the time of purgation. A Bride being made spotless and without wrinkle. No other gods to cling to, including the mirages of atheism, agnosticism, gnosticism, humanism, and philosophy. A Bride, not a Whore, any longer.

I think that it???s likely that thousands of Israelis may die during this time. I hope that this doesn???t happen, but the prophetic writings seem to indicate that this is what???s going to happen. Or so I read in the Scriptures.

Your reading may be very close, depending on who you ask. But for starters, I???d insert ???Israelites??? where you have ???Israelis???.

But until then, in spite of Israel???s spiritual stubbornness, their lack of belief, and their complete secular-ness, that they are still beloved as Paul said for the sake of the patriarchs.

For the sake of His Holy Name, as He gave His Word to the patriarchs, and the Word of God never returns void. Even if in His anger He has to instigate Moses to intercede and ???sooth the Face of YHWH??? as Scripture puts it, to abate or avert His wrath. And again earlier with Avram, when He visited before destroying Sodom and Amorra. He is a faithful God, even when ALL of His People are not.

I don???t believe that God has broken covenant with the Israeli people and I think the fact that modern Israel exists at all is PROOF that God loves the Jewish people, and has a special plan for them.

Again, YHWH of course never breaks covenant; His People have. And since He never breaks covenant, betraying His own Word, dispensationalism is meaningless. And ???Jacob???s Trouble??? is for the People Jacob (Israel) ??? NOT for any institution that has supposedly replaced her. And certainly not for an antichrist???s duped worldly people who already follow blindly after him, so he can wreak havoc on them. That is non-sensical, as you already perceive.

I???d simply suggest that you stick with ???Israelite??? as in ???Israel???, rather than ???Israeli??? as in the current secular nation. And as to this current secular nation???s existence as being ???PROOF that God loves the Jewish people, and has a special plan for them???, for now I???ll tell you that I kindly disagree that it???s existence is proof of anything other than unrepentant greed and a militarized politik ??? even potentially a prophetic fulfillment of other overlooked [negative] prophecy; but don???t quote me on that until I can further investigate the notion, which will take me time. But I do not disagree with you that God loves the Jewish people and has a special plan for them, ???for while we were yet sinners, Messiah died for us???, and most fervently I delight in the concept of having 10,000 true believers resting the soles of their feet on part of the Holy Land!

I think the fact that the desert has bloomed, and the modern nation of Israel supplies most of Europe with fruit and flowers, says that a miracle occurred with this nation. No one but God can create such miracles. Yes, satan can counterfeit some miracles, but I do not believe that this is the hand of satan, but is the arm of the Most High.

I have pictures of Almond trees blossoming from Samuel???s Mountain. I???ve been prayed over by an IDF Border Guard, and I swore the room that I and my group were standing in receiving this Messianic Jew???s blessing almost shook. The air was absolutely electric! Something certainly IS going on in the Holy Land today, and it???s not ALL satan. But I feel that most of us have swallowed a little too much misunderstanding today as well. I seek to sift the grains of Truth from a world of lies, not rift the foundations of the Bride, ???tis all.

I want you to understand that we can agree to disagree and still be agreeable, that you are my brother in spite of anything that we disagree on, but having said this, I think that you are very wrong about the modern state of Israel, and God???s relationship with it.

And I want to thank you for being so cordial, warm, and level-headed about this whole issue, and especially with me. As I somewhat portended, I figured it might have gotten some fireworks flying. So far, so good. And I certainly wouldn???t myself want to create a rift in our friendship. Agreeing to disagree on things can sometimes only be the remedy, I understand. Just remember, though, I did mention I have a grocery list of some things that you and most folks seem to have not been exposed to. I for one, know that I have MUCH to learn from you, and that can only mean for myself that I have potential reformations of my current belief system to encounter. I can only humbly request the same space on your end, when we meet these divides in the midst of the road on our same journey to God. I take no offense that you think I am very wrong. I can completely understand, in fact, because I???ve been in your shoes. I wasn???t born believing this. I???ve simply been confronted with some things, and it???s honestly been some tough decision-making to do. Imagine having like half your belief system crumble underfoot in one day! I wasn???t happy, and it took me a lot more than one day! I really do think that having the proper foundation is the most essential thing of all, however. So I???m not going to be pushy on this subject at all. It???s not going to get one into, nor keep one out of, Heaven.

Personally, I don???t think even Andrew views the state of Israel the way I???m suggesting. I think it best that we both receive MARI, and get more grounded in the Brit Chadasha (NT) from a Jewish translator???s rendition of the 1st Century???s Apostolic recordings of our mutually Jewish King. We all have our expertises, and I figure that in all of Andrew???s pouring of heart into MARI to bring ???peace??? to all believing brethren, he hasn???t had the time to scour less fundamental and tricky issues as I have been able to do, while waiting for P.E.A.C.E. So the ball is in your court, really, I guess. I know you have a lot on your plate already. Perhaps this whole thing just needs to get sidelined for the time being? I personally wasn???t ready to attack it, nor to accept certain conclusions from it, until I was much more grounded in the Scriptures, namely, Israelology. Then again, all of my sources have been outside of the Nazarene fold, and not all of them have been fanatical kooks.

Please read this and reply if you???d like. I would enjoy seeing your response to my post.

I hope that I???ve been as kind-natured towards you as you have been towards me, Albion. I am thankful that I didn???t piss you off, honestly. I know how passionate you are, for our Jewish brethren. You really have commanded my respect in the tone of your response. This is also why I???ve devoted so much time to responding to it, hopefully in enough detail to get my general point across, without getting too specific. I don???t want to unravel everything all at once, as this is unwise in general, and frankly, an impossible burden on both of us. I just thank you for your understanding, and couldn???t ask for more!

???Blessed is He who comes in The Name of YHWH???.

The Jewish Messiah, Yeshua!

Your Brother in Messiah, Albion

Cordially yours, your Brother in Messiah Yeshua,

~Ryan

[*Albion*]

My Brother Ryan,

I read your post late last night after we spoke.

I know some basic Hebrew...............Brit Chadasha'=New Covenant, for example.

'Chaver'= friend. Chaverim= friends.

So, know that I have a basic *transliterated Hebrew* vocabulary of maybe 25 to 35 words.......and maybe a few more, if I can read a sentence, and slowly pick out various words.

Now, on to your post.

I'm afraid that I have a VERY short answer for such a well written and long and scholarly post.

Back in 1999, I first came across the "Two House" teachings through a book by Batya Wooten, which I no longer remember the name of.

Brother, the 'Two House' teaching is very similar (in my opinion) to "British Israelism".

And it's just as much of a weave of various belief structures to get to WHO IS ISRAEL.

It's just one more fake Gentile teaching, trying to make Gentiles into Jews.

And like Herbert W. Armstrong's "British Israelism", whoever invented this teaching should (also) be thrown out of their respective Congregation.

Lots of twists and turns trying to make GENTILES into JEWS in the (so-called) "Two House" teachings.

I'm very sorry, but I DON'T buy it!

That DOESN'T mean that I don't still love you like my Brother in Messiah, which you ARE.

We can just lovingly agree to disagree.............OK?

Your Bro, Albion

[Christina]

The political situation in modern Israel is very, very complex. There are days I can see both sides of the issues pretty plainly, and there are other days when I wonder why the IDF doesn't wipe their enemies from the face of the earth.

Amongst them we (Allah) have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief. -Surah 5:64 (Yusuf Ali)

When in their insolence they transgressed (all) prohibitions, We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected." -Surah 7:166 (Yususf Ali)

Those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path! -Surah 5:60 (Yusuf Ali)

And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected." -Surah 2:65 (Yusuf Ali)

Did you know that Palestinian kids are still getting taught that Jews are descendants of monkeys & pigs?

[Muhammad said:] The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: "Oh Muslim, oh slave of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him." (Sahih Muslim Book 041, Number 6985)

Folks this is a spiritual war, it's not about politics, it never has been, Muslims have always hated the Jews and have always wanted to destroy them (and us too btw, millions of them pray for it every single day), and will not stop unless Yeshua Himself personally puts a stop to it. Trust me I've read their holy book & traditions, I know exactly what they really think of us and the Jews and what their real goal is - world domination, they don't want peace with Israel, they want the entire piece of Israel and EVERY other land. Do yourselves a favour & look up the words 'taqiya' and 'hudna', these people are NOT to be trusted.

Psalm 83:1 A song, a psalm of Asaph. 2 O God, do not be silent; do not hold aloof; do not be quiet, O God! 3 For Your enemies rage, Your foes assert themselves. 4 They plot craftily against Your people, take counsel against Your treasured ones. 5 They say, "Let us wipe them out as a nation; Israel's name will be mentioned no more." 6 Unanimous in their counsel they have made an alliance against You -- 7 the clans of Edom and the Ishmaelites, Moab and the Hagrites, 8 Gebal, Ammon, and Amalek, Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre; 9 Assyria too joins forces with them; they give support to the sons of Lot. Selah.

Psalm 79:4-10 4 We have become the butt of our neighbors, the scorn and derision of those around us. 5 How long, O LORD, will You be angry forever, will Your indignation blaze like fire? 6 Pour out Your fury on the nations that do not know You, upon the kingdoms that do not invoke Your name, 7 for they have devoured Jacob and desolated his home. 8 Do not hold our former iniquities against us; let Your compassion come swiftly toward us, for we have sunk very low. 9 Help us, O God, our deliverer, for the sake of the glory of Your name. Save us and forgive our sin, for the sake of Your name. 10 Let the nations not say, "Where is their God?" Before our eyes let it be known among the nations that You avenge the spilled blood of Your servants.

The day will come when YHWH will poor His wrath on those wicked Baal worshippers.

[Christina]

You know Christina, I am no fan of the Islamic theology, but there are MANY good Muslims. My Statistics teacher is a Palestinian and he is one of the kindest people I know for example. No to the theology, yes to the individual.

Of course Rafa dear, though technically these nice Muslims are actually bad Muslims - they're not obeying all the commandments of their prophet and god. I've interacted with many Muslim refugees from Iraq, both Arab & Kurdish, and they most certainly are the sweetest and most hospitable people I've ever met.

The point of my post is to demonstrate that this war the Arabs are waging on the Jews is really spiritual not political, and it didn't begin in 1948 either. The Imams teach in their Friday sermons that the land (and every other land) belongs to Allah - their allah, and that the Jews must be annihilated because it's what Muhammad said, and its not only the mosques in the Palestinian territories where you'll hear such sermons. This is nothing new at all, its same old, same old, Israel's ancient enemies, the "heathen roundabout" are still her enemies today. The hate speech against the Jews (and other infidels) that is being preached to Muslims is not new at all, it began with Muhammad himself and has been consistently preached throughout the centuries up to today.

Don't think for a second that the Muslims will be satisfied once they have their own Palestinian state - they don't only believe in reconquering Palestine for Allah, but also conquering the entire world for Allah. Once they got their Palestinian state, they'll seek to reconquer Jerusalem, the Jews KNOW this. And from there they'll set their sights on other lands that they once controlled, like Greece, Spain & the Balkans, the Turks already illegally occupy northern Cyprus, and there's a reason why military service is still compulsory in Greece - we nearly went to war with our giant Muslim neighbour as recently as 1996 because they tried to take some of our islands! And don't even get me started on the issue of our other Muslim neighbour FYRM. As for the situation in the EU itself, well put this way - the UK has already granted Muslims to establish Shariah courts and the French government threw Bridget Bardot in jail on charges of "racism" just because she remarked "the Muslims are destroying our country". If trends don't change dramatically Europe with fall to Islam within the next 10 years, and then they'll start coming after you in the Americas.

Listen I'm not advocating irrational fear or hatred for the Muslim people, most of which are not jihadists but we have to see the issue for what it really is. The reality is there are enough Muslims who are hellbent on obeying everything their religion tells them, to cause a lot of problems for us, and their numbers and influence are growing dramatically.

[Christina]

Yes the majority of Skopjics are Muslim, same with Albania (issue of Kosovo comes to mind here). These people want to call themselves Macedonia, BUT Makedonia is Greek and these people are slavs, they have nothing to do with Alexander the Great or the history of Makedonia. Here's the deal here, we have a province in Greece called Makedonia, which includes Pella (where Alex was from) and the capital Thessaloniki (Thessalonica in the NT), which is Greece's 2nd largest city and where my Greek relatives live. We told the Skopjics that they can call themselves "Northern Macedonia" but they refuse to accept this they insist to call themselves Macedonia. Why? They told us to our faces that they have plans to take our province Makedonia from us!!! <!-- s:angry: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/angry.gif" alt=":angry:" title="Angry" /><!-- s:angry: --> This is typical Islamic behaviour!