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A Mystery Revealed: Gospel of Mark tracks the 7 Churches in the Book of Revelation
#16
Well then, somebody isn't hearing from God on how to understand the book of Revelation rightly. And if they aren't hearing it from God, then should they hear it from Greg, Charles, or Chuck? : )

Brothers...please.

Happy Passover.

.
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#17
Greg, part of your ideas in your study says this:

"in Mark 5:18-19, Yahshua does not let the new sober man (Catholic Church) stay with him (in Protestantism) but instructs the newly sober man to go to his house (Vatican) and tell his people (Catholics) how Marya had mercy upon him."

You say these things, not in a speculative manner, but rather in a matter of fact manner, as if you know it to be true, rather than, only think it may be true. Did God reveal this to you, or is this only the ideas in your own mind? Please be honest.

Do you actually believe that Christ healed the Catholic Church, but, won't let the Catholic Church dwell where He is, in Protestantism?

Seriously?

Can you expound on that statement please.

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#18
Quote:... Yahshua does not let the new sober man (Catholic Church) stay with him (in Protestantism)
[.. and ..]
In 1328AD the Catholic Church was at the height of its decadence ...

Also, the apellation "[the] Catholic Church" means different thing to different people but there is a case for using a definition that agrees with Ignatius.

Ignatius Epistle to the Smyrnaeans VIII, 2 Wrote:Οπου αν φανη ο επισκοπος, εκει το πληθος ητω, ωσπερ οπου αν η Ιησους Χριστος, εκει η καθολικη εκκλησια.
Wherever the bishop may show up, there let the people be, like wherever Jesus Christ may be, there is the Catholic Church.

In 1328 CE, there were at least two churches that claimed to be the Catholic one. The Latin/Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Church.
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#19
(04-23-2016, 05:12 AM)Thirdwoe Wrote: Greg, part of your ideas in your study says this:

"in Mark 5:18-19, Yahshua does not let the new sober man (Catholic Church) stay with him (in Protestantism) but instructs the newly sober man to go to his house (Vatican) and tell his people (Catholics) how Marya had mercy upon him."

You say these things, not in a speculative manner, but rather in a matter of fact manner, as if you know it to be true, rather than, only think it may be true. Did God reveal this to you, or is this only the ideas in your own mind? Please be honest.

Do you actually believe that Christ healed the Catholic Church, but, won't let the Catholic Church dwell where He is, in Protestantism?

Seriously?

Can you expound on that statement please.

.

Thank you for your questions.

Well, I can’t say I know for certain what the Father has done and is doing with the Catholic Church, but I know He has been patient and loving and merciful time and again in the bible with those He loves (i.e., apostate Israel).  At some point though, we all face judgment day!
 
The real church is in Yahshua, and His path is a narrow one.  I suspect Protestantism was a type of protection/safety/place for the woman in the wilderness, rather than the woman herself.  The word 'Protestantism' doesn't even fit the bigger picture of what I'm trying to say (as I've written -- the key thing Protestantism accomplished circa 14th Century AD was a newfound religious freedom for the woman.  Her true identity is that she keeps the commands of Alha and has the testimony of Yahshua. Revelation 12:17.  That narrow identity would not define billions of Protestants, Roman Catholics, Orthodox, etc., but rather some from these groups of Christians who are chosen by Alha.  

So, the key to that 14th Century AD question (that you cited above) is that the Protestant reformation gave freedom to all of these Christian groups (including Catholics themselves) from the Roman Catholic Church.  Protestantism by itself was (and became) its own beast, so to speak.  It is a form of wilderness outside of Israel.  But a woman can find safety in the wilderness from time to time.  And she needed safety...
 
For example, I’ve written regarding the Pergamus to Thyatira transition:
 
“In this theory, the beast would represent the ‘masses’ (often self-proclaimed “Christians”) who tortured and slaughtered Jews and Messianic Jews (‘Jew sympathizers’) during the time of the black plague (especially beginning around 1346). The most infamous ‘reason’ for persecution was the claim that Jews caused the plague by poisoning wells. Notably, this was not the first time ‘Christians’ had engaged in mass-slaughtering of Jews and minorities, but scholars agree it rose to an unprecedented level of genocide/holocaust during these years of the black plague.”
 
I think the beast of the sea is some kind of Roman creation supported by the macro world order (Catholicism (“The Holy See”) + Protestantism + Other + $ecular).  It is literally described in the text as a beast with different body parts, and many heads and horns.
 
Today the beast of the sea looks very much like the United Nations (whose legal authority to ‘judge the world’ literally comes from the “Rome Statute” that began in this generation around 2002AD, but Israel has withdrawn its signature).
 
Back in the apostles’ days, the beast was also a Roman creation supported by the macro world order (Mythology + Judaism + Other + Secular).   
 
My role as a student: I have unique study insights to share that often come from synchronicities and clues.  Ultimately, the Father is going to reveal what He is going to reveal.  If I’m useful to the Father (I believe this to be true), then this study is likely useful information to someone.  If I’m wrong, then Alha will reveal me to be wrong, or partially wrong perhaps.  Whatever the result, I still love Revelation and I love the Father!  I’m happy that the upright and chosen will receive rewards in Yahshua, and that Yahweh does justice.
 
I should add that the bible is filled with flawed people (who are not prophets) who sometimes misinterpret prophecies, but they are still useful and redeemed to be made upright in their due time.  Look at Simon Peter for example in Matthew 16:21-24.  That was part of Simon’s journey.
 
I’m on a journey too, and I think the Father is helping me make progress.  I do know that I'm a flawed student, but I don’t know what I don’t know.  So I don’t know how flawed.  
 
That’s a fine point that my original post was mostly written in the affirmative rather than qualified.  I suppose I could have put something in the intro along these lines “I could be wrong”.  Also for logistical reasons, I think it's a judgment call for how many times to write “perhaps” and “in my opinion”.   I actually don’t want to dwell on the doubt-side during this bible study -- too many synchronicities have lined up in this research for me to be self-protective.  And I especially do not want to be wishy-washy. 

I think the connection between Revelation and Mark is amazing!! and so this study is useful and can help people learn something right now. 

 
And indeed, if some readers also potentially agree with me that the United Nations and various Religious Hierarchies and the British Crown are not what they seem, then I think that’s also potentially productive to help people stop giving allegiance to a beast that is growing larger.  As I wrote in conclusion to my post, “I encourage other Aramaic students and scholars to share their thoughts and insights.”
 
Where my ideas and insights come from: I cannot keep track of how each one comes as I read and write and live and think and repeat (not necessarily in that order). 
 
Sometimes the synchronicities are amazing though, like when (after finding the sword & staff code) I saw the shepherd’s staff shape shining as sunlight through my dome window.  It was a totally natural phenomenon (even saw it again this morning) – when it happens it does need a lot of conjunctions though: it must be the right season and the sun shines at the correct angle at the correct time right into my house given the unique triangle shape of my window.  It only works because the sun strikes an old speaker my dad gave me and he just happened to set up for me in just that spot.  I’ve never had to do a thing, the sunlight shines right there whenever the time comes – all I have to do is see it.
 
Yahweh is kind to me, as a parent is kind to a child.  I think I find insights during research through the grace of Yahweh. 
 
It is right to read, watch, and count.  Daniel the prophet wrote mysteriously about 7s to predict the coming of the Messiah, and so the people were supposed to count those 7s.  And indeed, many did count, and messianic fever was very high when Yahshua and John the Baptist were born.  That atmosphere became part of the bible in several unique ways! 
 
In Revelation 12, the unique counting insight I found that tied all my research together here was this original finding regarding "time" (60), "times" (600), and "one-half time" (30):

 
[Image: Rev12Timeline-A-Theory.jpg]
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#20
(04-23-2016, 12:56 PM)sestir Wrote: In 1328 CE, there were at least two churches that claimed to be the Catholic one. The Latin/Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Church.

Correct, but which 'Catholic' church do you think would best match the description in Mark 5:
 
(1) a man with an "unclean spirit" a "cemetery" by the "sea" -- consider the Vatican's long history of honoring and decorating skulls and corpses, and various occult rituals.   Google "roman catholic skull worship" or "Roman Catholic occult practices" and you'll get the picture.  Also Vatican City is literally right next to the sea.

(2) "no one could bind him in chains" -- the Roman Catholic power was the undisputed world power.  No man could conquer it at the beginning of the Thyatira church (circa 1328AD).  

(3)
  Mark 5:5 ܙܒܢ  (“exchanges”) and ܟܐܦܐ (“rocks”) is synched with Revelation 2:21   ܙܒܢܐ   (“time/exchanges”) because the Catholic church claims the authority of ܟܐܦܐ (“Peter”).  Indeed, in Mark 5:5, the unclean man in the cemetery is harming himself in ܟܐܦܐ (“rocks”) in all ܙܒܢ  (“exchanges”); and in Mark 2:21, the Messiah is giving Jezebel ܙܒܢܐ  (“time/exchanges”) to repent.  
In my original post I wrote that Mark 5:5 ܡܨܠܦ  (“cut”) is ܨܠܦ (“divide”) was symbolic of the divided ܟܐܦܐ  (“rock”) Catholic/Protestant church.   But perhaps there is also symbolism of the east/west schism?   
 
(4) worships Yahshua “from afar” -- symbolic of the way (hearts afar from him) that the decadent Catholics worshiped Yahshua circa 1328AD at the beginning of the Thyatira church. 
 
(5)  described as “sober” after Yahshua heals the man – only the Catholic Church had a massive purging/intervention circa 14th Century.  After that purging, the world was never the same.
 
By contrast, the Church of the East is in a different league entirely.
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#21
I know you are sincerely sharing what you think you are seeing, Greg. The source is my concern. And it saddens me to see the Aramaic Scriptures being used for this type of thing, which has long been done with other NT language texts. To me, it is abuse and mis-interpreting what the Holy Text is all about, and forcing it into something it isn't about at all.

People have been trying to make the Bible say all kinds of things, and they have convinced some to believe they are on to something. Harold Camping comes to mind as a recent example. I spoke with him personally one day, and tried to tell him he was wrong about his timeline. Of course he didn't listen.

Speaking of timelines, Greg. You have 2024-3024 as the timeframe for the "millennial reign", then later on in your article, you have 2020-2030 as the timeframe.

This graph/chart timeline making stuff has been going on for many decades now, and there are many examples you can see posted online.

As time goes by...the dates always change. I was once involved with a group who came up with a timeline. I told them they were wrong about it, and that pretty much ended our fellowship with them. Their end date for the return of Christ was 2006.

Then they revised it to 2009, then they were looking at the Red Moons that John Hagee was blowing his horn about. Each time I was telling them it was all bogus. And they continue not to repent of this activity, as they try to find the timeframe for the end of the world, always with God not helping them.

Harold Camping wrote a number of long books pointing to 1994, then 1995, 1996, and lastly 2011. And before him it was other guys with 1988 being the time of Christ's return. You can find all kinds of this type thing in each generation, Greg, as you might know. And I don't see any value at all in any of it. A total waste of time.

Is it ego? Is it deception? Is it misguided soulish desire to know when Christ will return?

The Scriptures are clear that no man knows the time when it will be, and that it will be when we are not expecting it to be, so we are called to be ready at all times.

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#22
(04-24-2016, 04:24 PM)Thirdwoe Wrote: I know you are sincerely sharing what you think you are seeing, Greg. The source is my concern. And it saddens me to see the Aramaic Scriptures being used for this type of thing, which has long been done with other NT language texts. To me, it is abuse and mis-interpreting what the Holy Text is all about, and forcing it into something it isn't about at all.

People have been trying to make the Bible say all kinds of things, and they have convinced some to believe they are on to something. Harold Camping comes to mind as a recent example. I spoke with him personally one day, and tried to tell him he was wrong about his timeline. Of course he didn't listen.

Speaking of timelines, Greg. You have 2024-3024 as the timeframe for the "millennial reign", then later on in your article, you have 2020-2030 as the timeframe.

This graph/chart timeline making stuff has been going on for many decades now, and there are many examples you can see posted online.

As time goes by...they dates always change. I was once involved with a group who came up with a timeline. I told them they were wrong about it, and that pretty much ended our fellowship with them. Their end date for the return of Christ was 2006.

Then they revised it to 2009, then they were looking at the Red Moons that John Hagee was blowing his horn about. Each time I was telling them it was all bogus. And they continue not to repent of this activity, as they try to find the timeframe for the end of the world, always with God not helping them.

Harold Camping wrote a number of long books pointing to 1994, then 1995, 1996, and lastly 2011. And before him it was other guys with 1988 being the time of Christ's return. You can find all kinds of this type thing in each generation, Greg, as you might know. And I don't see any value at all in any of it. A total waste of time.

Is it ego? Is it deception? Is it misguided soulish desire to know when Christ will return?

The Scriptures are clear that no man knows the time when it will be, and that it will be when we are not expecting it to be, so we are called to be ready at all times.

.

Christianity has a long tradition of explaining how prophecies have already been fulfilled.  My post here explains that many of the prophecies in Revelation have already been fulfilled – that six of the seven churches/lampstands have already come and gone.   

And then based on that pattern, this methodology predicts the end of the Laodicea church in 2018AD.

At that point, theoretically, the great tribulation would begin (because the woman is no longer provided safety in the wilderness).  How long is that great tribulation? I don’t know.  When will the Messiah arrive like lightning? I don’t know.  When does the lamb appear on Mt. Zion? I don’t know.  When does the thief appear?  I don’t know. 

My insight is specifically with regard to the churches, not the Messiah’s arrival.


So my theory predicts neither the day nor the hour of the Messiah’s arrival.  It does forecast the season though (i.e., range of years), which reminds me of these verses:
  • Matthew 16:13, “And in the morning you say, 'There will be a storm today, for the sky is gloomily red.' Respecters of persons! You know how to observe the appearance of the sky; do you not know how to distinguish the signs of this time?”

  • Mark 13:28, "And learn an allegory from the fig tree: whenever its branches are tender and its leaves bud, you know that summer has arrived."
Imagine that a man lived in the time of the Messiah’s first coming and was counting 7s from Daniel 9:25-26, and this man found that the season had arrived for the Messiah’s coming -- what should he do?  Should he hide the findings within himself, or share his research?   Just because countless others around this man have made faulty interpretations, should this man be silenced because of the errors of others?  Indeed, even if this man himself had made errors in the past, does he lose the right to research and share his zeal for counting 7s toward the coming of the Messiah?

Thanks also for catching that error in the image re 2020-3020AD (that was an early draft image).   I just fixed that image to match my current theory, so it now reads 2024AD?-3024AD? 



(04-22-2016, 08:07 PM)sestir Wrote:
Quote:Consider the possibility that the oil these 5 virgins need is a witness, and that witness is the Book of Revelation...

Consider the possibility that the bridegroom was late because he was trying to sort out contradictions between Revelation and Paul's letters...  Tongue

The fuzziness of Rêvelation enables churches to bestow their own propaganda with biblical authority and an apostolic stamp of approval, by exegeting their own desires and legalism from the fertile soil that is the apocalyptic genre. There are two possible solutions that I know of:
1. omit it from layman's canon, and
2. Greg writes a commentary that is so attractive that it will mostly replace the churches' own commentaries

The bridegroom has indeed delayed His coming.  It’s been almost 2,000 years since Yahshua left earth!  And every year has since then seen Christians expecting and predicting His imminent apocalyptic return!  Personally, I think Revelation works like 'wheels within wheels', where there are multiple layers of fulfillment.  So the overthrow of the 2nd temple was a layer of fulfillment, and that example will be repeated with a 3rd temple.

Mark 13:30 “Amen, I say to you, this ܫܪܒܬܐ (“tribe”) will not pass until all of these things will occur.”

The Messiah refers to  ܫܪܒܬܐ (“tribe”)  in the same manner that the prophet Jeremiah referred to all of Israel as one “tribe/staff”.   Jer. 51:19.

Key point: the gospel of Mark only provides a prophecy up to the sixth seal, at which point (per Revelation) the ܫܪܒܬܐ (“tribe”) receives the mark of Alha between their eyes for protection in the coming plagues.

Historically, churches may not have technically “needed” the Book of Revelation because they did not need to meet the bridegroom in the middle of the night.   But today we are likely living at the end of the age.  And so it will be helpful for awake members of the body of Yahshua to navigate beyond the sixth seal when that time comes. 

In the Aramaic, the word ܐܬܐ (“sign”) is key here to understand the gospel prophecy: 

In Mark 13:4, four apostles (including Andrew, who is symbolic of the Church of the East) ask Yahshua privately what is the ܐܬܐ (“sign”) when these things are near to being fulfilled.  Notice that in Mark the apostles did not ask what date the Messiah will arrive for a second coming.   They asked for the sign of His coming.  That sign is provided in the sixth seal with the face of the lamb.  Indeed, that is why Yahshua stops providing the prophecy by Mark 13:27 as the angels gather the elect from the four winds (which is synchronized with Revelation 7 as the angels gather from the four winds the 144,000 from the ܫܪܒܬܐ (“tribe”) of Israel.  In other words, the reason Mark has the Messiah stop the prophecy there is because it answered the original question in Mark about the ܐܬܐ (“sign”).

Matthew 24 is similar to Mark 13, but in Matthew we read ܕܡܐܬܝܬܟ ܐܬܐ (“sign of your coming”), so in Matthew we learn a little more to answer the question.  We learn that the Messiah does not arrive immediately after the sixth seal, but rather the sixth seal only contains his ܐܬܐ (“sign”).  And indeed, in Matthew we learn to expect something similar to the days of Noah around that time (which I equate this with fallen angels taking women), and that we can expect great deception to continue after the sixth seal.  Knowing that, how should a church plan to find the bridegroom amidst this deception/darkness?

Sestir, you want to know why should the Book of Revelation be canonized if men are prone to misinterpreting it… well, what about the Book of Daniel?
 
Let’s go back to our example of the 10 virgins in darkness in Matthew 25.  They all had lamps (churches) with oil in them originally (synoptic gospels I think), but only 5 of the virgins had the additional oil (Book of Revelation) to successfully navigate the long night when the bridegroom called, even as all the churches slept.

I think the five virgins are symbolic for the five churches that constitute the shepherd’s staff (Pergamus, Thyatira, Smyrna, Philadelphia, and Laodicea). 

This reply is just what you were hoping for, right?, yet another commentary from me Wink
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#23
Quote:Sestir, you want to know why should the Book of Revelation be canonized if men are prone to misinterpreting it… well, what about the Book of Daniel?

This sounds like two JW elders who visited me recently and tried to explain to me that I hadn't actually gained any knowledge by means of my studies, but all I had found was a lot of questions that I needed them to answer. No, I do not want to know why the Book of Revelation should be canonized. I want there to be enough bibles in circulation that completely omit and ignore the Book of Revelation, and enough denominations that reject it, so that we can convince media, lawmakers and others that the Book of Revelation doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the Bible, if we need to.
Yes, I like to ask questions but I can state an opinion too if you insist. ;)

When it comes to the book of Daniel I thought I had found a nice parallell until I read it in Greek and Aramaic. I still think it is a parallell, but the two passages have few if any expressions in common.

Daniel 7:28 (ESV, emphasis is mine)
Here is the end of the matter. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts greatly alarmed me, and my color changed, but I kept the matter in my heart.

Mark 16:8 (ESV, emphasis is mine)
And they went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had seized them, and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

Daniel 7:28 is the last verse of the Aramaic part of the book and it explicitly says that something ends there. The apocalyptic matter is chiefly located in the following Hebrew language chapters.
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#24
Chuck, I’ve been giving a lot of thought to your comments, and I’m grateful for the cautionary advice.  I’ve decided to accept some of your advice about date-setting…

In reflection, I realized that I’ve been speculating on the duration of the great tribulation.  I re-read almost the entire Crawford codex this last week (after your comments) and it occurred to me that I don’t see anywhere in the literal text where great tribulation clearly adds up to 7-years or otherwise.  The approximately 7-year expectation must have gotten inside my head through commentaries about Revelation 12 and 13. 

So I'm no longer assuming a 7-year tribulation, and indeed my methodology has a fundamentally different interpretation of Revelation 12.  That means that logically, I'm free to ask: what if great tribulation lasts 40-years?!  Or 7-years? Or 14-years? Or 5.5 years?  Or other?

So I’ve changed my images above that projected the beginning of the Millennial Reign in “2024AD?” -- now the images have just a “?”  That should be clearer -- my methodology does not predict the timing of when the Messiah will arrive or the beginning of the Millennial Reign.

With that said, the “2018AD” date is a calculation that this methodology predicts for the end of the Laodicea church’s protection.  In other words, this methodology allows calculation that (1) circa 2018 is when a great tribulation begins because the woman is no longer safe in the wilderness, and (2) the previous six churches identified in Revelation are all fulfilled prophecies in their respective time.

So the reason I cannot back down from the 2018AD calculation is because it is a calculation: exactly 1,950 years (1,260 + 690 = 1,950) since the fall of Jerusalem (68AD).  And so the methodology says the previous six churches identified in Revelation are all fulfilled prophecies in their time.  If a methodology reveals fulfilled prophecy, then it is important to consider its merits, and its weaknesses/assumptions.

The assumptions of this methodology are: (1) 1,260 days = 1,260 years, (2) time, times and the dividing time = 690 years, and (3)  ܦܪܓܡܘܣ is actually near Mt. Hermon.  Take away any of these assumptions, and my entire methodology falls apart. 

But if those assumptions hold true, then everything else lines up with astonishing accuracy!  And in any case, Mark and Revelation would still appear to be greatly synchronized (just on the Aramaic words alone).

So, if this methodology is correct, then what can people expect circa 2018AD?  Again, the methodology does not predict when exactly the Messiah will arrive.  Rather, it only suggests that it would be wise for the Laodicea church to be cautiously aware of 2018AD and the years that follow.  Based on the precedents of the previous churches (Philadelphia, Sardis, Thyatira), I think the Laodicea church can probably expect World War 3 to begin around 2018AD, and then the world going downhill from there.  Accordingly, now (2016AD) looks like a good time to prepare for a long ‘night’ ahead.

In Matthew 25, when the 10-virgins are sleeping at night it reminds me of Yahshua sleeping in Mark 4:35 (synched with Pergamus before the great plague & earthquake & violent revolutions in my theory).  In Mark 4:35, Yahshua and his disciples are crossing to the other side of the sea, and then a great storm occurs while only Yahshua sleeps.  My theory predicts this was symbolic for the black plague & Catholic siege that began circa 1328AD (ie., while the church (in Yahshua) slept, the storm of protest and disease came).  But the disciples were not asleep in the boat!  They were frantically scared as the waves crashed around them. They literally thought they might die.  When Yahshua awoke, He calmed the sea (rebellious and diseased/dying people) and instructed the disciples to simply have faith.

Will this history repeat at the end of this age?  As the church in Yahshua sleeps, will the disciples be frantically scared when the waves rise? 

As it was in the days of Noah…
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#25
Well, if Trump becomes POTUS, then perhaps it will be the end of the world as we know it in 2018... Hasten the return of Christ by voting Trump? lol

Anyway.

What God has determined to be, will be, Greg.

.
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#26
I should also highlight that I used Gregorian calendar dates for convenience. 
 
In reality, 2018AD would be the Hebrew Year 5778, which actually begins in the autumn of 2017AD. 

And in any case, the key calculation here is 1,950 years -- but I don't know exactly when that 1,950 year clock started ticking.  I did my best to date the fall of Jerusalem in 68AD because the city was overthrown by civil war and was completely ruled by rebels.  The few Jewish priests (who held the seat of Moses) who escaped death were fleeing in secret, and records are scarce.  For example, the priest that Charles Wilson mentioned in a reply, Yohanan ben Zakkai,according to the Talmud, when he found the anger of the besieged populace to be intolerable, he arranged a secret escape from the city inside a coffin.” (Wikipedia)

This example of Yohanan ben Zakkai helps proves the point -- Jerusalem lost its priestly authority during the civil war (66AD-68AD) that occurred before the siege of Jerusalem (70AD).  

Fortunately, each of the 7 churches serves as a reference point for their own historical marker (i.e., Thyatira matches the end of WWI;  Sardis matches the end of WWII).  While those are easily confirmed dates, it is not so easy for me to place a pinpoint marker on the geographical center of Thyatira, because it potentially covers a large range where that ancient Christian church/assembly lived.  I researched the antiquities of each area though, so I think I did a pretty decent job -- some of the cities have much better antiquity records than others.

So as long as these uncertainties on the precise dates are acknowledged, the methodology makes it clear (that is, calculable) that circa 2018AD is the end of the Laodicea church's protection.  If I adjust my theory/math to catalog the fall of Jerusalem in 69AD, then it automatically adjusts the end of the Laodicea church's protection to 2019AD.  Or if I adjust the fall of Jerusalem to 66AD, then it automatically adjusts the Laodicea church's protection to 2016AD.  But the methodology does not allow adjustment of the numbers too far (i.e., several years), because then it would disrupt the other dates/locations of the other six assemblies.


So the bottom line here is that "circa 2018AD" means that you can give or take a year or two depending on the way that you precisely date these 7 world changing events in history that plagued the Jewish people:
  • (1) the fall of Jerusalem (circa 68AD)
  • (2) the construction of the dome of the rock (circa 687AD)
  • (3) establishment of Roman papal sovereignty and the founding of the Papal States (circa 727AD)
  • (4) release of the black plague (circa 1328AD)
  • (5) end of World War 1 (1917AD)
  • (6) end of World War 2 (1945AD)
  • (7) end of Arab-Israeli War (1973AD)
  • (8) ?  ?  ? (circa 2018AD)
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#27
Josephus, Wars..., 6, 5, 1:

"WHILE the holy house was on fire, every thing was plundered that came to hand, and ten thousand of those that were caught were slain; nor was there a commiseration of any age, or any reverence of gravity, but children, and old men, and profane persons, and priests were all slain in the same manner; so that this war went round all sorts of men, and brought them to destruction, and as well those that made supplication for their lives, as those that defended themselves by fighting.

W..., 6, 6, 1:

"On the fifth day afterward, the priests that were pined with the famine came down, and when they were brought to Titus by the guards, they begged for their lives; but he replied, that the time of pardon was over as to them, and that this very holy house, on whose account only they could justly hope to be preserved, was destroyed; and that it was agreeable to their office that priests should perish with the house itself to which they belonged. So he ordered them to be put to death. "

ben Zakkai makes it out.  There was a List, according to Uzi Leiber (Settlement and History...in Galilee, ISBN-13: 978-3161498718 ) which paired Settlements with the Priestly Courses.  On the assumption that not all of the Priests are in Jerusalem for the Siege, some of these Priests in Galilean Settlements also survived.  One other point is that ben Zakkai approaches Vespasian and declares that Vespasian will become Emperor.  Vespasian states that ben Zakkai should be killed twice over for what he has said.  However, if what he asserted turned out to be true, then ben Zakkai could have "one wish" - ben Zakkai asks for, and receives, permission to build a school at Yavneh.  It is the start, most probably, of Rabbinical Judaism.

ben Zakkai may become more important in future years for study of the Origin of the NT in terms of Structure, especially with the Book of Numbers.

CW
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#28
(04-28-2016, 08:10 PM)Charles Wilson Wrote: Josephus, Wars..., 6, 5, 1:

"WHILE the holy house was on fire, every thing was plundered that came to hand, and ten thousand of those that were caught were slain; nor was there a commiseration of any age, or any reverence of gravity, but children, and old men, and profane persons, and priests were all slain in the same manner; so that this war went round all sorts of men, and brought them to destruction, and as well those that made supplication for their lives, as those that defended themselves by fighting.

W..., 6, 6, 1:

"On the fifth day afterward, the priests that were pined with the famine came down, and when they were brought to Titus by the guards, they begged for their lives; but he replied, that the time of pardon was over as to them, and that this very holy house, on whose account only they could justly hope to be preserved, was destroyed; and that it was agreeable to their office that priests should perish with the house itself to which they belonged. So he ordered them to be put to death. "

ben Zakkai makes it out.  There was a List, according to Uzi Leiber (Settlement and History...in Galilee, ISBN-13: 978-3161498718 ) which paired Settlements with the Priestly Courses.  On the assumption that not all of the Priests are in Jerusalem for the Siege, some of these Priests in Galilean Settlements also survived.  One other point is that ben Zakkai approaches Vespasian and declares that Vespasian will become Emperor.  Vespasian states that ben Zakkai should be killed twice over for what he has said.  However, if what he asserted turned out to be true, then ben Zakkai could have "one wish" - ben Zakkai asks for, and receives, permission to build a school at Yavneh.  It is the start, most probably, of Rabbinical Judaism.

ben Zakkai may become more important in future years for study of the Origin of the NT in terms of Structure, especially with the Book of Numbers.

CW

The Jewish high priest was killed in 66AD.  And by 68AD, it was just rebels ‘running things’ chaotically in the city as people starved, and worse.  Anything after 68AD was not law, it was chaos.


So any ‘priests’ who remained in the city by 70AD were not lawful.  That’s a big deal actually – law. 

Indeed, after looking into this historical question deeper about ben Zakkai and company, I found this from another author, “There are many problems with the Johanan ben Zakkai story, not the least being that Vespasian was not actually present at the siege of Jerusalem, his son Titus (of the same name) was the commander. Secondly, when rabbi Johanan ben Zakkai escaped from the siege, in the summer of 70 CE, to promise the emperorship to Vespasian, Vespasian was already emperor! These and other inconsistencies can never be sorted out because of the lack of reliable material.”

From the reliable materials available, the actual and legitimate priestly authority (holding the seat of Moses) was completely absent in Jerusalem sometime between 66AD and 68AD, which was when the entire rule of law had broken down in the city.
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#29
(04-29-2016, 12:57 AM)gregglaser Wrote: The Jewish high priest was killed in 66AD.  And by 68AD, it was just rebels ‘running things’ chaotically in the city as people starved, and worse.  Anything after 68AD was not law, it was chaos.
So any ‘priests’ who remained in the city by 70AD were not lawful.  That’s a big deal actually – law. 
From the reliable materials available, the actual and legitimate priestly authority (holding the seat of Moses) was completely absent in Jerusalem sometime between 66AD and 68AD, which was when the entire rule of law had broken down in the city.

Not so, Greg!
http://www.schechter.edu/AskTheRabbi.aspx?ID=315
https://christmasdecember25.wordpress.co...sts-begin/

Jehoiarib is the first Mishmarot Group named in 1 Chronicles 24. Immer is the sixteenth and these two Groups bookend the "House of Eleazar"*. The Hasmonean Dynasty is "assigned" to Jehoiarib and the "Leading Name" of Jehoiarib may reflect the efforts of the Dynasty to be "the first in line", as there are other orderings given (Eisenman and Wise, Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered).

The very important aspect of having Jehoiarib on Duty for Mishmarot at the Destruction of the Temple is that this gives an "Anchor Date" from which ANY of the 24 Groups may be calculated for the purpose of determining which Course was on Duty for a particular week. The Qumran Group used the Mishmarot Courses to keep track of variances in the various Calendars that competed with the "Correct Calendar" as used by that Group.

The 4 BCE Passover saw the murder of 3000 worshipers and the cancellation of Passover. Which Group was on Duty for this Passover? Immer. " אמּר ". As in, "Lamb", as in "The 16th Mishmarot Service Group". I believe that this word play is strictly intentional.

There are some, shall we say "Interesting", ideas floating around about various people from this time, including Yohanan ben Zakkai, Vespasian and even Josephus. It is very possible that there are some shenanigans goin' on with the Historicity of various parts of this Tableau. The intent is, as I stated above, intentional. So, whether the Temple area was a "Lawless" Area or not, the Literature we have portrays the Mishmarot Service as continuous and in force until it ends with the Destruction of the Temple, with Jehoiarib on Duty.

CW

* You should look at the Jewish Encyclopedia for the report on the Mishmarot Group "Bilgah". There is something...ummm...interesting about the actions of Bilgah...
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