Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Romans 1:17 query
Dear Dave,

Dave Wrote:There is a problem at times when people associate death with faith. Not everyone is a true martyr and death is quite cheap anymore.

Don't be so judgmental Dave. Many people died for their faith in Jesus Christ. It is not for you to decide whether their martyrdom is acceptable to God or not. Furthermore, you have not suffered any persecution or discrimination like those Christians living in other part of the world.

Dave Wrote:There is also problems with theology and doctrine when it comes to certain sects and groups of people who call themselves Christians, or similar names, when in fact they are living within their minds. To them belief is good enough...
To be a Christian you must be born again. I didn't set the standard Jesus did. It is written down as a quote from Jesus. For those who think otherwise, He says, "Depart from me for I never knew you."

It's not my particular doctrine or theological bent, it is His. He makes the distinction on purpose for His reasons.

As far as I know, no one whom you are debating and ridiculing here are denying the standards set by Jesus. It was you who set your own standards upon others. Anyone who disagrees with your personal opinions are considered by you as unbelievers or lesser Christian than you. Many times in this forum, you attributed your own personal opinions that came from "within your own mind" to the Holy Spirit of God.

Dave Wrote:As far as the syriac text:

What's interesting lately is this theory of the aramaic new testament being original. First, there is no true aramaic print text being presented by any of the followers of this theory, it is a text in a dialect of aramaic called syriac. Second, it has no originality to it, it follows the standarized text types rather than the western text types that ruled the 1st to 3rd centuries. This particular western text is everywhere within the church fathers quotations yet this syriac text has no similarity to it. It follows the condensed Byzantine text type similar to the received and majority text types.

That second one is really the tell-tell sign that this is just a theory. If this syriac text would have given us the original western text in it's complete unadulterated form rather than a standardized form, it would have every single scholar in the community on it ears over it, but it don't.

There is no dated text earlier than the late 4th to 5th century, none. Yet, it is theorized as being original. Church leaders within the Church of The East go as far as to say it was handed down by the apostles themselves. Quite amazing to say the least when it has not a shred of history to it. Actually, no one knows where it came from because they can't locate any information on it.

All of this is fact, there is no sugar coat here.

The above statement is already answered in this forum. That is what this forum for. Many facts were presented. You refuse to believe them, because you already have your own opinions and how things should be or should be done. You can continue with your own beliefs. No one is forcing you to believe the way we believe. I do not condemn you for believing differently. But I don't think you will treat me the same way.

What originality do you expect? I have about 70 printed Bibles at home. I have read the Bible in Indonesian, Malay, major English versions, Hebrew, Septuagint Greek, Greek New Testament (many times), Aramaic NT, Latin Vulgate, and German (for the purpose of learning German language). I don't find them differ much. They are all basically the same.

Again and again you failed to see that it was not your opinions that turned people against you. It was your arrogant attitude and trolling behavior in this forum. You think you are more knowledgable than others when the truth is you don't even know or read Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek Bibles. You equate being bold with being arrogant. Being humble with being timid. No wonder you behave in such a manner.

Pride makes you look down upon other people. Pride, deceptively, makes you feel more special than other people. It gives you a sense of importance which demands that you be treated in a particular way. If your personal opinions are rejected it means people are actually rejecting God.

Dave Wrote:The people who have most recently taken a liking to it in America are those who would call themselves messianic Christians, but it is not a readily used version within the fundamentalist groups. It's as if God refuses to vear away from the greek scriptures on purpose, and certainly refuses to use something new from the syriac camps.

It could be speculated that the Greek was a translation from one language
then the syriac was a translation of the greek. Many have went about showing the aspect of this, how the syriac follows the greek too closely.

Again and again you are making baseless assumptions and wild speculations on how things should be or should be done. It was Catholic priest Desiderius Erasmus who first published the Greek New Testament in Europe so that the word of God would be available to common folks, but it is not a readily used version like the Latin Vulgate within the fundamentalist groups at that time - the Catholics. The Catholics could say the same thing like what you said - God certainly refuses to use something new from the Greek camps.

A few years ago I was surprised to discover a Modern Greek translation of the Bible (including the New Testament). I am a non-Greek speaking person took the trouble to learn New Testament Greek so that I can read the New Testament Greek in the original. What is wrong with these Greek speaking people? Don't they understand New Testament Greek? That is what I said to myself. But after I read the Modern Greek grammar I started to understand the reason why there is a need for Modern translation. So I hope you will understand that being not in used or no longer in use does not mean that it is not the original or that it is discarded by God.

Dave Wrote:In summary, all of this is complete fact, yet there are the non-scholars and entertainers who would have you believe different. One must follow The Holy Spirit completely in things and be especially careful of the pitfalls that mankind attempts to throw up at the Body of Christ.

You said this because you were humiliated earlier. You have no knowledge in Hebrew, or Aramaic, or Greek compared to the persons you are debating and yet you are acting like an expert. Your "Holy Spirit" is not Holy Spirit to others, because you have no text of the Scripture to rely on. What you uttered and blabbered are based upon what is "within your own mind." Whenever the text of the Scriptures disagree with your preconceived "ideals" you would reject it.

Anyway, it is not your lack of knowledge or scholarship that makes others disrespect your opinions. It was your pride. You considered others who disagree with your opinions as being against God. You think that you are the only one here who knows God. You think that you are the only one who is spiritual.

Dave Wrote:Everyone and their grandmother's entertainer on here promotes originality of the syriac text and how accurate the "scribes" were who wrote it. I beg to differ, particularly in this area.

You can have your own opinions. No one is forcing you to comply. But why must bring others' grandmother into this?

Dave Wrote:I should write a book about this, it is quite easy to summarize things. It would probably help many.

Empty talks and wishful thinking are cheap. Go ahead and write if you think you will benefit others. Paul Younan is doing something about his conviction. His translation of Peshitta is a great help to many. Dave Bauscher is doing something about his conviction. He is writing a book and his participation is this forum is a great help to many. Even young Chris drmlanc Lancaster is doing something about his conviction. He is compiling a book and many appreciate him.

But don't simply write a book out of hatred/envy for Paul or some members in this forum who have refuted you many times. Don't write a book because you feel the need to humiliate these people. Don't hate the Peshitta because you consider "this sect of people" are not Christians. Be fair in your approach. Don't be biased in your approach. Judge fairly. How? Look at the causes of misjudgment:

preconceived idea, prejudgment, prejudice, prenotion, preconception, presumption, presume, presentiment, presuppose, forejudge, one-sided views, partial views, narrow views, confined views, superficial views, one-sided ideas, partial ideas, narrow ideas, confined ideas, superficial ideas, one-sided conceptions, partial conceptions, narrow conceptions, confined conceptions, superficial conceptions, one-sided notions, partial notions, narrow notions, confined notions, superficial notions, narrow mind, opinionated, self-opinioned, bigotry, miscalculate, misreckon, miscompute, misjudge, misestimate, misthink, misconjecture, misconceive, rush to a conclusion, look only at one side of the shield, view with jaundiced eye, view through distorting spectacles; not see beyond one's nose, party spirit, partisanship, clannishness, unreasonable, stupid, foolish

Dave, it is very easy to criticize the works of others. It is very easy for you to sit at the comfort of your home judging other Christians who are discriminated and persecuted that they are not Christians because they do not live according to your "Azusa Street." Why?

Empty vessels make the loudest noise.

Dave Wrote:You see Paul, I won't look the other way and just accept what someone says or introduces to me, to do so would be foolish on my part. Anyone can look at the facts and educate themselves on this theory quite easily. Whenever someone does, the facts are easily noticed and it helps people to avoid the assumptions and ideals that many would have the uninitiated believe.

Truth is a wonderful thing, but it can be a troublesome thing for those who
want to avoid the light of truth so that they can promote their personal
agendas in the dark.

Dave, do you think that you are the only one who seek the truth? Others don't? You think that God only listens to your prayers not others. That is the problem with you that you failed to see.

Dave, I am like you too. I do not simply accept what someone says without looking at the facts and examining the facts. That is why about fourteen years ago I decided to learn New Testament Greek. I wanted to know whether the English and Indonesian translations that I am using are accurate or correct. A while later, I decided to learn Hebrew because I wanted to understand the word of God more. Then, I was introduced to textual criticism because I wanted to examine the ancient manuscripts of the Bible. Bought and read Latin Vulgate bibles too.

I asked God concerning the variants in the Greek New Testament manuscripts. Then I discovered the Aramaic Peshitta. Ordered it at the Bible Society. Bought three different copies. I found the answers to my prayer in the Peshitta. Many variants in Greek NT can be explained from the Peshitta.

Then, I found <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href=""></a><!-- w -->. So happy. Yes, really happy. For example, 2 days ago Dave Bauscher helped me in explaining the variant ptoma & soma in the manuscripts of the Greek Gospel of Matthew.

If you want to write a book go ahead and write it. If you want to study Hebrew, go ahead. But you must carefully examine yourself the reason for writing a book or studying Hebrew. What is your motive? What is your agenda? Is it because you love the Word of God? Or is it because you wanted to debate others? I don't know your motive and agenda in learning Hebrew but I am happy that you wanted to learn Hebrew as I do not doubt your love for God. I just hope that you have the right motive so that you can be properly motivated in learning the language.

Dave Wrote:Yes, I'm quite arrogant, I'm quite bold, and I'm happy about that since I'm also completely in tune with what God wants done.

Dave, try not to confuse being arrogant with being bold. Being timid with being humble.

The LORD detests all the proud of heart. Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished. (Proverbs 16:5)

God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble. (James 4:6)

Pride is destructive in its very nature in that it seeks to put down others to elevate self. Pride deceives us into an exalted view of ourselves in one way or another. Pride can make us look down upon other people. Pride hates correction from others. It is defensive and will always make excuses. It will often attack when threatened. It causes us to be critical of other people.

Dave, be careful with what you are opposing because you do not really know what you are opposing here. Perhaps you could learn something from the advice given by Gamaliel the Pharisee to the Jewish Sanhedrin:

Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God. (Acts 5:38-39)

Dave, you should leave the members of this forum alone because you have been playing the same broken record again and again.

Whatever grudges you have against the members of this forum, please do not hate the Bible even if it is a translation. God has been using the Peshitta to save souls and preserving it for the past 1900 years. If the Aramaic Peshitta New Testament is indeed from the Apostles, you will only find yourselves fighting against God. If it is not, just leave us alone. There are others who wanted to learn it. It helps us in solving the variants found in the Greek New Testament.

Stop hijacking the threads in this forum by changing the original topic of discussion of the thread. If you don't want to learn Aramaic Peshitta it is fine. But please do not disrupt others who wanted to learn it. Paul Younan is doing us a great service by translating the Peshitta - even to a student of Greek New Testament. His interlinear of the Peshitta helps us who does not know Syriac to be able to check the Syriac text referred to by our Nestle-Aland Novum Testamentum Graece. Your "more spiritual than thou" attitude here is only disrupting others who wanted to learn from Paul. So stop being hostile toward others Dave. We can disagree on many things. But we should not grumble against each other.

Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you???who are you to judge your neighbor? (James 4:11-12)

Peace to you Dave,

One of the first owners of the facsimile of <a href=""><b>Codex Leningrad</b></a>

Messages In This Thread
Romans 1:17 query - by son_of_lite - 01-23-2005, 04:45 AM
[No subject] - by Dan Gan - 01-25-2005, 05:34 AM
Righteousness or Justice ? - by gbausc - 01-26-2005, 08:06 PM
[No subject] - by son_of_lite - 01-27-2005, 12:47 AM
[No subject] - by gbausc - 01-28-2005, 04:46 PM
[No subject] - by Dave - 01-28-2005, 06:03 PM
[No subject] - by gbausc - 01-29-2005, 05:21 PM
[No subject] - by Dave - 01-29-2005, 06:25 PM
[No subject] - by gbausc - 01-31-2005, 01:49 PM
[No subject] - by Dave - 01-31-2005, 07:55 PM
[No subject] - by ograabe - 02-01-2005, 02:36 AM
[No subject] - by gbausc - 02-01-2005, 01:51 PM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-02-2005, 01:11 PM
[No subject] - by Paul Younan - 02-02-2005, 02:28 PM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-02-2005, 03:11 PM
[No subject] - by Paul Younan - 02-02-2005, 03:33 PM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-02-2005, 03:54 PM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-03-2005, 06:57 AM
[No subject] - by Paul Younan - 02-03-2005, 04:14 PM
[No subject] - by Paul Younan - 02-03-2005, 05:05 PM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-03-2005, 07:29 PM
[No subject] - by Paul Younan - 02-04-2005, 03:56 AM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-04-2005, 10:04 AM
[No subject] - by Paul Younan - 02-04-2005, 04:08 PM
[No subject] - by ograabe - 02-04-2005, 07:25 PM
[No subject] - by peshitta_enthusiast - 02-05-2005, 03:22 AM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-05-2005, 07:10 AM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-05-2005, 11:42 AM
[No subject] - by Paul Younan - 02-05-2005, 05:48 PM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-05-2005, 09:45 PM
[No subject] - by peshitta_enthusiast - 02-05-2005, 11:13 PM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-06-2005, 12:05 AM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-06-2005, 12:10 AM
[No subject] - by Paul Younan - 02-06-2005, 01:39 PM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-06-2005, 05:46 PM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-06-2005, 06:38 PM
[No subject] - by peshitta_enthusiast - 02-06-2005, 06:57 PM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-06-2005, 08:28 PM
[No subject] - by gbausc - 02-06-2005, 08:56 PM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-06-2005, 09:06 PM
[No subject] - by gbausc - 02-07-2005, 03:00 PM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-07-2005, 06:31 PM
[No subject] - by gbausc - 02-07-2005, 11:25 PM
[No subject] - by Paul Younan - 02-08-2005, 12:43 AM
[No subject] - by Paul Younan - 02-08-2005, 12:45 AM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-08-2005, 03:47 AM
[No subject] - by Paul Younan - 02-08-2005, 04:07 AM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-08-2005, 07:11 AM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-08-2005, 08:23 AM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-08-2005, 11:08 AM
[No subject] - by Paul Younan - 02-08-2005, 03:53 PM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-08-2005, 07:24 PM
[No subject] - by Paul Younan - 02-08-2005, 07:39 PM
[No subject] - by Dan Gan - 02-08-2005, 08:37 PM
[No subject] - by peshitta_enthusiast - 02-08-2005, 09:01 PM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-09-2005, 04:04 PM
[No subject] - by Dave - 02-09-2005, 04:55 PM

Forum Jump:

Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)