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nashama · 12-29-2004, 03:46 PM

Sh'lama Friends:
For those studying the Khabouris Manuscript there is an interesting word difference from the 1905 Peshitta text. It's in Ephesians 1:8. The 1905 Peshitta uses the word [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Lkws[/font] which can mean discernment, intelligence or understanding. The NKJV translates the Greek as prudence.

Interestingly, one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is discernment.

"which he made to abound in us in all wisdom and with all that is spiritual."
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)].xwrd Lkbw 0mkx Lkb Nb trtyt0d Yh[/font]

Sh'lama,

Stephen Silver

Larry Kelsey · 12-30-2004, 05:44 AM

Shlama Akhi Stephen,

The Western text missed an important word here! Nice find akhi <!-- s Smile

--><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt=" Smile

" title="Smile" /><!-- s Smile

--> George Lamsa didn't miss out on this. The reason for this is on the front cover of the Lamsa Bible... "Holy Bible from the Ancient Eastern Text"... <!-- s Wink

--><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt=" Wink

" title="Wink" /><!-- s Wink

-->
Even John Gill had an Eastern rendering before him when he wrote in his "Exposition of the Entire Bible"...{QUOTE}.... and the Syriac version reads the last clause, "and in all spiritual understanding"...{END OF QUOTE}
By the way, this [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Xwrb Lkws[/font]-- (spiritual understanding / discernment) of Ephesians 1:8 (Eastern Text <!-- s Smile

--><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt=" Smile

" title="Smile" /><!-- s Smile

--> ) gibes really well with the [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Xwrb Nkrwb[/font]-- (spiritual blessings) of Ephesians 1:3, no? <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" />

Shlama w'Burkate, Larry Kelsey

Dave · 12-30-2004, 07:14 AM

Uh oh, I sense some indirect aggression from the "Pro-Peshitta crowd." Time to do something about it:

Acts Chap 1:26

"and he was numbered amongst the eleven Apostles

Hmmmm,....did we lose an apostle here besides the one we just received fellas?

All the greek translations say the same here also (uh oh, possible greek origin? <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /> ),.....all except,

Codex Bezae!!!:

"And he was numbered with the twelve apostles"

Yep, western text!

nashama · 12-30-2004, 08:38 AM

Dave Wrote:Uh oh, I sense some indirect aggression from the "Pro-Peshitta crowd." Time to do something about it:

Acts Chap 1:26

"and he was numbered amongst the eleven Apostles

Hmmmm,....did we lose an apostle here besides the one we just received fellas?

All the greek translations say the same here also (uh oh, possible greek origin? <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /> ),.....all except,

Codex Bezae!!!:

"And he was numbered with the twelve apostles"

Yep, western text!

Hi Dave:
There are hundreds of Western Greek texts, and one. Codex Bezae says twelve. Think about it. Judas hanged himself. That leaves 11 Apostles. This is a red herring, not proof of Greek primacy.

If you are going to do something about it, find some real evidence of Greek primacy. C'mon Dave, shake the world! :o)

Kind Regards,
Stephen Silver

Dave · 12-30-2004, 11:26 AM

Hehe <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" />

Hey now, I don't claim greek primacy there bud, but I don't claim aramaic primacy either, at least not this standardized text.

However, I do feel there could have been some sort of hebrew or aramaic text behind some of the writings in the new testament.

For example, Acts 10:38,

(LAMSA) Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, whom God anointed with the Holy Spirit and with power, and who, because God was with him, went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil.
(MURDOCH) concerning Jesus, who was of Nazareth, whom God anointed with the Holy Spirit and with power. And he it was, who went about and healed those that were suffering from evil, because God was with him.

Here's Paul's interlinear translation:

Concerning Jesus who was from Nazareth, whom GOD annointed with The Holy Spirit (or The Spirit of Holiness) and with power.

At first look, the parts that I've bolded look perfectly fine. But could this be better?

Let's take an example from the Hebrew Matthew texts:

Matthew 3:11

I immerse thee only in water unto repentence, but He who cometh after me is mightier than I, whose sandles I am unfit to carry, for He shall immerse thee in the fire of The Holy Spirit.

The flow of that right there, how it is combined is much better. Could that be applied in the preceding sections? Let's see, I'll use Paul's interlinear text again:

Concerning Jesus who was from Nazareth, whom GOD annointed with the power of The Holy Spirit.

Much better. I do believe there could have been a hebrew/aramaic text behind this, at least the thought patterns are there, but would I believe that the current peshitta text is the original? No, it seems to follow the greek too much. At least from what this monolinguist can tell. The Holy Spirit teaches us all things, so I gotta pay attention when He shows me something.

nashama · 12-30-2004, 03:27 PM

Quote:Much better. I do believe there could have been a hebrew/aramaic text behind this, at least the thought patterns are there, but would I believe that the current peshitta text is the original? No, it seems to follow the greek too much. At least from what this monolinguist can tell. The Holy Spirit teaches us all things, so I gotta pay attention when He shows me something.

Hi Dave:
Are you saying that you cannot read Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic? Is this what you mean by monolinguist.

So far your focus has been on English readability. I suggest that you begin to hack through Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew, or you can only guess at what is being said in the text. You are completely dependent upon another's translation/version. It's impossible to make any evaluation of the text from that vantage point.

Most of us are just scratching the surface anyway. However, it's a breakthrough to be able to read a word and look it up yourself. I use the Aramaic-English Lexicon and Concordance regularly.

There are very few people plugged into peshitta.org that can read or speak either Hebrew or Aramaic fluently. Paul 's mother tongue is Aramaic and he's a treasure to all of us here. Most, if they're honest will admit that they are just linguist hackers like me. <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" />

All the best in your studies,

Stephen Silver

Dave · 12-30-2004, 08:23 PM

/taps foot

Dave · 12-30-2004, 11:57 PM

You know statements like that, where you believe that I'm unable to grasp anything about His word unless I read a particular language is quite small minded Steve, and has kept many manuscripts within the hands of mankind instead of His church.

I felt challenged by that statement but I'm starting to realize something here, people do not really believe certain portions of the word, or at least it has not be revealed to them yet to even have the faith for it. They can't grasp it or the concepts themselves so they are quick to justify themselves against someone who does, especially against someone who only reads english.

They break it down into it's most literal form, and that happens on here at times, yet they never have the quickening aspect that The Holy Spirit provides from within, so they only understand it in it's most literal form. They have never seen the actual spiritual imprint behind those very words they read all the time. That sort of spiritual discernment is not a true experience for them, it is a thing of the mind only.

They have never felt The Spirit break through from within them and allow them to see the living word, instead of the written word, in all it's glory. They have never experience this, sad to say.

I have 2 courses ordered and on the way, one for hebrew and one for syriac. The hebrew is for the OT of course, the syriac is so I can read what Juckel and aland recently put together. I want to get as close to the 1st and 2nd century greek texts as possible.

The peshitta is nice scholarship, a fine standardized translation. I like some of it's insight.

Larry Kelsey · 12-31-2004, 03:45 AM

Shlama Akhi Dave,

Dave Wrote:I have 2 courses ordered and on the way, one for hebrew and one for syriac. The hebrew is for the OT of course, the syriac is so I can read what Juckel and aland recently put together. I want to get as close to the 1st and 2nd century greek texts as possible.

The peshitta is nice scholarship, a fine standardized translation. I like some of it's insight.

I am 100% behind your zeal in some respects.
However..... <!-- s Smile

--><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt=" Smile

" title="Smile" /><!-- s Smile

--> ..... from everything I've gathered about Juckel and Aland they'll never introduce you to nuggets like this one... <!-- s Big Grin

--><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/happy.gif" alt=" Big Grin

" title="Happy" /><!-- s Big Grin

-->

<a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=668&highlight=">viewtopic.php?t=668&highlight=</a>

Also consider the extreme diligence that was demanded at the Nestorian schools.......

<a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=623&highlight=">viewtopic.php?t=623&highlight=</a>

Also Juckel and Aland will probably never look at things from this perspective.......

<a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=668&highlight=">viewtopic.php?t=668&highlight=</a>

"...to set forth in order a declaration..." of Luke 1:1 sounds very Indo-European but get a load of this.....

<a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=973&highlight=">viewtopic.php?t=973&highlight=</a>

You can't even make it past Matthew 1:1 without running into an expression that is thoroughly Semitic......

<a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=988&highlight=">viewtopic.php?t=988&highlight=</a>

Mark 1:24 has a phrase that is also thoroughly Semitic.....

<a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=978&highlight=">viewtopic.php?t=978&highlight=</a>

What about Charismatics and Evangelicals having such a deep appreciation for the fact that salvation and regeneration enable us to become a new creation? Take a look at this.....

<a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=906&highlight=">viewtopic.php?t=906&highlight=</a>

If you don't believe that the Peshitta Text is very independent of the Greek......

<a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=736&highlight=">viewtopic.php?t=736&highlight=</a>

How about a missing sentence from the Greek Text of Matthew 28:18......

<a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=729&highlight=">viewtopic.php?t=729&highlight=</a>

Guys like Juckel and Aland (Kurt and Barbara I presume) would find guys like Norton despicable.....

<a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=533">viewtopic.php?t=533</a>
<a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=534">viewtopic.php?t=534</a>
<a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=522">viewtopic.php?t=522</a>
<a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=608">viewtopic.php?t=608</a>

Shlama w'Burkate, Larry Kelsey

Dave · 12-31-2004, 05:03 AM

Quote:I am 100% behind your zeal in some respects.

Well thanks Larry!

I had to do a little research to find out what I needed to learn Hebrew. I finally decided on a course that a lady from Israel offers online. That course would push me to not just read it but actually write and speak it, and I would be able to have access to the instructors for my questions.

I found a program over at Foundation Stone that you can use to type out words and it will help you learn Hebrew, similar to one of those typing programs. Their site also has news casts from israel that were slowed down some so that you can practive hearing hebrew spoken and you can practice speaking along with it.

I picked up a scanned copy of the original Dutillet medieval text so I can practice on that also. I have the orthegraphy for it and other different styles of it.

I'm learning Hebrew first as it was what I was pointed to initially by The Lord. Once I'm somewhat comfortable in it, I will procede into the Syriac. I purchased a program over at the site that is linked on here. We'll see where that takes me.

There is an additional aspect to working with His word that is somewhat overlooked, I feel. GOD used prophets to speak His words. Those prophets had to maintain a closeness to GOD by fasting and prayer. This had to be a daily discipline on their part throughout their lives here. I feel that this is one of the major overlooked areas for anyone who is working with His words. I cannot see how anyone can say with any sort of certainty what they have is original unless GOD has the say-so in it completely. It's His words in the first place, and only He knows what is missing and what is original. So, this has to be a daily practice for one who has this calling.

Juckel and Aland produced a critical text for the scholarly community. They gathered everything together and aligned it similar to Kiraz's work, but way more advanced. The Peshitta is right in the middle on this work.

One nice thing is that they combined every ancient quote from the early church fathers they could find along with this to help show any sort of recension. It is a costly work, but you will not find anything like it. A real advance work from that German community, of which, I'm proud to have direct roots back to from both of my families.

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