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Variations in the Peshitta?? - Printable Version

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Variations in the Peshitta?? - Mike Kar - 08-07-2008

[b]Greetings and hello to everyone. My name is Mike and I live in Georgia. I consider myself a pretty serious Bible student. I have been studying the New Testament, with the Greek, for about a year or more now. I mean, w/o knowing all the nuances of the Greek I have been "getting into it." Peshitta Primacy is something new to me and I sense I am heading in that direction. I want to let you know that some of my experiences in studying the Greek has not been good. Oh, for a year or so now I have been using the New King James Bible. It has footnotes at the bottom of just about every single page in the New Testament. One aspect that has been a sore spot for me are the notes which say something to this nature: "The NU-Text does not contain this phrase;" or "The NU-Text omits this verse while the M-Text includes it;" or "The NU-Text omits this word," or "the NU-Text omits the rest of this sentance." Sure enough, when I would get on a computor and go online to some of these NT Greek sites this would confirm what the NKJV notes would say. This would leave me wondering if this sentance or this phrase or this word is included in the Bible at all!! Well, this as been a source of frustration for me at times. I am sick of it and hoping, but we'll see, if the Peshitta's holds true to its' claims. So, having said this I would like to ask you all if there any passages or places in the NT Peshitta that has this same dilemna as the Greek New Testament manuscripts do?? I mean are there certain places (anywhere) where some Aramaic manuscripts have word or phrase additions in certain passages while in other manuscripts where they're not included?? I mean, just one or two?? May I put forth ONE example just to start?? How about the account of the woman caught in adultery (John &;50 to John 8:1)?? We all know in the Greek texts we get that same old song and dance where certian family of texts contain this story while in another family of texts (in the Greek tradition) this story is included. Do we have the same debate in the Peshitta??

I would appreciate your input as I, being new to this field, would like to know what I should expect. I have come across some statements that the manuscripts of the Aramaic Peshitta is approximately 99.8% accurate and the only instances of variences in the Peshitta are not missing words but occasional mispellings here and there. Please tell me if where there might be some missing words or phrases in the manuscripts of the Peshitta. I believe they are minimal from what I read but I really am just throwing an arrow in the wind. Is there such a thing as 2 or 3 family of texts within the Aramaic Peshitta framework?? Thank you folks for your hard work and dilegence in reference to the Peshitta. Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

Mike G. Karoules


Re: Variations in the Peshitta?? - ograabe - 08-08-2008

THIS IS APPARENTLY A DUPLICATE POSTING.


Re: Variations in the Peshitta?? - *Albion* - 08-09-2008

Shlama Mike,

Welcome to Peshitta.org.

The story of the woman caught in adultery is NOT in the P'shitta N.T.

And I think others could answer the rest of your questions better than I.

But generally, ALL the P'shitta MSS agree with each other.

Peace, Albion


Re: Variations in the Peshitta?? - Mike Kar - 08-13-2008

Albion, Thank you. But I have heard that before from Greek primacists in that "GENERALLY" all the Greek manuscripts agree with one another. They in fact don't in alot of passages and locations. Maybe I should ask if the Aramaic manuscripts agree with one another with much greater precision that the Greek manuscripts?? But are the Western Aramaic manuscripts the same as the Eastern Aramaic manuscripts of the Pishitta (keeping in mind the 5 books that the Eastern does not accept as canon)?? From what I have heard Peshitta Primacists proclaim is that the Peshitta New Testament is just about varient free. Occasional mispellings, missing words due to damaged or aged manuscripts , occasional missing letters in some words; all these are to be expected to some degree. Other than that I am hoping and expecting a varient free (just about) Aramaic manuscript writings. I just recently noticed that Acts 15:34 is missing in the Eastern text of Aramaic manuscripts. I have run across this so many times with the Greek texts and I don't want to have the same experience with the Aramaic Peshitta New Testament. I have high hopes for this new territory I am about to embark so I would like to know to what degree I will find missing words or omitted words, different words from one Aramaic manuscript with another, omitted phrases and so on. I would love anyone's comments and I am not angry. It is just that I have read from Aramaic Primacists that the Peshitta is so-so-so much better than the Greek texts and that the degree of varients is almost nill/zero. Thanks so kindly.

Cordially,

Mike Karoules
Atlanta area


Re: Variations in the Peshitta?? - *Albion* - 08-13-2008

Dear Mike,

Here's the differences, from an older post that I wrote.

Eastern and Western (Part II)

Postby Albion on Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:56 pm
So, if I've covered every difference between the PeshittA, and the PeshittO, they boil down to THESE:


Here's the end of John's gospel (John 21: 15-17) where in the P'shitta it says:

"feed my lambs"

"feed my sheep"

"feed my ewes"



In Acts 20:28, the Western (Monophysite) PeshittO variant of this verse is:

"Watch therefore, over yourselves, and over all the flock over which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, *that you feed the church of God* (PeshittO) which he purchased with his blood."

Paul Younan has commented extensively here before that in the Nestorian COE Scriptures i.e. The PeshittA, that a Semitic person would be opposed to this use of the word "blood" in Holy Scripture.

I don't necessarily see how to "fix" this verse without the use of the word "blood" being used in the Peshitta NT.

Perhaps this takes a Semitic mind or soul to understand, or comprehend, neither of which I have, I'm afraid.

The Eastern P'shitta text has "that you feed the church of Messiah", of course.
Here's the Eastern text of the P'shitta of Hebrews 2:9:

"But we see him who was humbled lower than the angels, this same Jesus, because of the suffering of his death, both glory and honor are placed on his head. "For APART FROM God, he tasted death on behalf of everyone."

(The PeshittO has "By the Grace of God, he tasted death on behalf of everyone.").

Here's Hebrew's 2:16

"For he did not assume [his nature] from the angels, but he assumed death from the seed of Abraham."

As I said in an earlier post, there may be another small portion of Luke's gospel that has also been changed in the PeshittO, and perhaps a tiny portion of John's gospel that also has been changed from the PeshittA, to the PeshittO.

I'll leave these to others who actually read the Syriac, and have a natural understanding of it (as OPPOSED to a LEARNED standard of it) to write about.

I hope that this helps not only Yochannon, who's post I set out to answer, but anyone else who might be wondering about the differences between these two texts. i.e., The Peshitta, and The Peshitto.

Shlama, Albion

Albion


Re: Variations in the Peshitta?? - judge - 08-14-2008

Hi Mike and welcome to the forum.
The first thing I think needs to be understood (and this is just my opinion) is the difference between the peshitta and the peshitto. The peshitta is that bible used in the East by the community that became the COE. This it seems is the original.
Christians to the west who became the SOC who also spoke Syriac or Aramaic use an edited version of the peshitta called the peshitto.
The peshitto has two alterations to the text. Hebrews 2:9 and Acts 20:28. Additionally the dialect is slightly different. So many of the so called variations are in fact due to these two different textual traditions.
A critical edition of the peshitta was published IIRC but again IIRC it failed to distinguish between the two textual traditions, so it may speak of many variants but these variants may just be varaitions between the eastren versions and the western versions (if that makes sense).
As far as i am aware no critical edition of purely eastern peshittas has ever been done!

One very important point o keep in mind while researching this topic is what can be misleading wording at times.
There are fragmentary mss known as the Old Syriac gospels. You will find some excellent threads on them on this forum. The present consensus (which is ripe to be overturned) is that these precede the peshitta.
Be very careful if you see references to a an old syriac gospel as this may , in some peoples minds, mean the peshitta.