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Who will win tomorrow? - Printable Version

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- John Stephens - 11-15-2004

Dear Friend,

I'm sorry that my letter was read so negatively. It was not my intention to attack you or your political affiliation. The previous discourse raised two concerns, that I was trying to address: 1] The meaning of Bin Laden's statements seem to have been unintentionally distorted. It is vital for Christians to base their position on Truth, to the best of our humble ability. 2] Disciples of the Moshiach are not subjects to the world of sin, but are servants of another Kingdom. The nature of this Kingdom is outlined in the Sermon on the Mount, but its essense is illustrated most clearly by Yeshua himself rejecting the way of the sword and taking on the vocation of the cross to redeem all mankind.

I want to answer your questions, to the best of my ability:
gbausc Wrote:"In conclusion, I tell you in truth, that your security is not in the hands of Kerry, nor Bush, nor al-Qaida. No. Your security is in your own hands. And every state that doesn't play with our security has automatically guaranteed its own security."

To what "state[s]" does "Kerry" or "Bush" have relevance ? To whom does he refer when he says "you" and "your" , if not The United States ?

All the way through, he speaks of George W. Bush. Which "state[s]" would he have in mind ? Which "state" would he fear ? Which "state" took out his government in Afghanistan ? Which state destroyed his Al Kaida network and confiscated his funds?
Are these questions rhetorical? The video transcript presents a very unified communication: UBL claims that his initiative to attack America came about due to his horror & outrage over American military involvement in aggression against Palestine & Lebanon, which he experienced as a threat to the autonomy and security of Muslim nations. In the statement you quoted, he is saying in essense that he doesn't care who we choose for our leader; he claims that nations can protect themselves best by not involving themselves in aggression against Muslim countries.
gbausc Wrote:Your post intimates that you believe we should be concerned with Bin Ladin's interests and freedoms . Your post intimates that we should love Bin Ladin and negotiate. If that is what you think, you are a fool and an apologist for the Devil.
I regret that our conversation has fallen into name-calling and ad-hominem attacks. What I said in my post is that we are our brother's keepers. A conviction that underscores this is that uplifted and secure people do not choose violence. People choose violence only when they perceive a threat to their interests and they have exhausted their invetory of options (granted, many are not aware that creative alternatives to violence exist, and exhaust their options more quickly). I think that we agree that Bin Laden's network is a threat to our interests; for this reason, it is vital for us to uplift and secure the people who support him, removing their incentive to support violent extremism; if UBL's support disappears, so will he. Therefore, I do think that it is important to understand and address the interests and freedoms of the people that Bin Laden concerns himself with.

Negotiate? If that means inviting him to the White House for a barbeque and giving him a ribbon, the answer is no. We need a wise agreement that improves the relationship of all parties in the long term, for a security without war, terror, or surrender of freedom. I strongly recommend the book Getting to Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In by Roger Fisher and William Ury (Harvard Negotiation Project); check it out. Tell me what you think. See also < <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.mediate.com/articles/currie4.cfm">http://www.mediate.com/articles/currie4.cfm</a><!-- m --> >
gbausc Wrote:The USA has never oppressed any nation.
It is not within my present power to list all of the nations eradicated on this continent by US policy through forced migration and genocide. Chattel slavery supported by US policy contributed to the forced migration and enslavement of inland Africans captured by the coastal kingdoms. Does Polk's military conquest of the Mexican empire for "manifest destiny" count? What about the numerous interventions in other nations for economic gain, placing or supporting so many ruthlessly brutal dictators.
Dr. King Wrote:They must see Americans as strange liberators. The Vietnamese people proclaimed their own independence in 1954-in 1945 rather-after a combined French and Japanese occupation and before the communist revolution in China. They were led by Ho Chi Minh. Even though they quoted the American Declaration of Independence in their own document of freedom, we refused to recognize them. Instead, we decided to support France in its reconquest of her former colony. Our government felt then that the Vietnamese people were not ready for independence, and we again fell victim to the deadly Western arrogance that has poisoned the international atmosphere for so long. With that tragic decision we rejected a revolutionary government seeking self-determination and a government that had been established not by China-for whom the Vietnamese have no great love-but by clearly indigenous forces that included some communists. For the peasants this new government meant real land reform, one of the most important needs in their lives.

For nine years following 1945 we denied the people of Vietnam the right of independence. For nine years we vigorously supported the French in their abortive effort to recolonize Vietnam. Before the end of the war we were meeting eighty percent of the French war costs. Even before the French were defeated at Dien Bien Phu, they began to despair of their reckless action, but we did not. We encouraged them with our huge financial and military supplies to continue the war even after they had lost the will. Soon we would be paying almost the full costs of this tragic attempt at recolonization.

After the French were defeated, it looked as if independence and land reform would come again through the Geneva Agreement. But instead there came the United States, determined that Ho should not unify the temporarily divided nation, and the peasants watched again as we supported one of the most vicious modern dictators, our chosen man, Premier Diem. The peasants watched and cringed as Diem ruthlessly rooted out all opposition, supported their extortionist landlords, and refused even to discuss reunification with the North. The peasants watched as all of this was presided over by United States influence and then by increasing numbers of United States troops who came to help quell the insurgency that Diem's methods had aroused. When Diem was overthrown they may have been happy, but the long line of military dictators seemed to offer no real change, especially in terms of their need for land and peace.

The only change came from America as we increased our troop commitments in support of governments which were singularly corrupt, inept, and without popular support.
If our allegiance is to God, we must insist that the history of our country be told objectively. To be certain, our country stands on revolutionary and noble principles, but we must be eternally vigilant that those pronciples are reflected in the present life of our society.

gbausc Wrote:50 million in Afghanistan and Iraq have been liberated and are establishing free governments.
I have a friend presently stationed in Iraq, and he says that the people prefer security to freedom. Saddam gave them security. Most Iraqi's are not willing to participate in the upcoming elections because they are afraid that it will make them the targets of insurgents. If it is not safe to vote, then it is not safe to call it a democracy.
gbausc Wrote:Our country and theirs were liberated by war.
And Canada was "liberated" through negotiation. India was liberated in nonviolent revolution. And South Africa. And Philipines. And others. What's the upshot here? Well, it proves that just agreements can be reached without war or violence, even in the under the threat of annihilation. That countries have been "liberated" through violence only shows that we are not being faithful to the Sermon on the Mount, and not exercising the creativity that it demands.
gbausc Wrote:Do not preach love to us. Preach it to Bin Ladin and the terrorists!
Are we not under the covenant of Love? I do not think that Bin Laden claims to be under such a covenant, but for those who have taken Yeshua for their teacher, Love is the greatest commandment.

Andr?? Trocm?? (1901-1971) is famous for his role in saving thousands of Jews from the Nazis, as pastor of the French village of Le Chambon. But his bold deeds did not spring from a void. They were rooted in his understanding of Jesus??? way of nonviolence and the social implications of Jesus??? proclamation of the Kingdom of God on earth. The following is excerpted from his book Jesus and the Nonviolent Revolution.
Andre Trocme Wrote:Jesus??? new commandment demands that we translate the rulership of God into everyday language through our bodies: Love your neighbor, serve him, heal him, even if this means breaking traditions or laws. Give in to him rather than offend him and turn him away from God. Whatever you do, don???t make yourself an obstacle on his way to God. One???s neighbor???s physical well-being is as important as his spiritual life; the healing of the body and the healing of the soul are joined in a single operation. Christ???s revolution is total, or it is nothing.

The immediacy and simplicity of this new commandment liberate us from fears, from plans, from complicated orders issued by the state, whether in peacetime or in wartime, and from all that divides people from one another. Freed from all casuistry, one can joyfully serve others as well as refuse with the same joy any attempt on humanity???s existence. We no longer need to be impressed by great principles quoted to us, or with great historical moments that call for bloodshed. It is so simple. Any endeavor to serve the needs of others, especially those that benefit children, the persecuted, prisoners, the exploited, the aged, the infirm, will advance God???s kingdom, even if only minutely.

The Christian objector to war or military service is thus not a purist who, on the day he receives orders to kill his neighbor, wakes from his dream to say no. He is a servant with experienced hands, who is so busy helping his neighbor that to interrupt his activity to undertake the task of killing is unthinkable to him.

Perhaps it is true that certain violent remedies employed against tyrants have put an end to certain forms of evil, but they have not eliminated evil. Evil itself will take root elsewhere, as we have seen through history. The fertilizer that stimulates its growth is yesterday???s violence. Even ???just wars??? and ???legitimate defense??? bring vengeance in their train. Fresh crimes invariably ensue.

But the future of the person who turns to God is not determined by the past, and therefore neither is the future of humanity. God???s forgiveness creates the possibility of an entirely new future. The cross breaks the cycle of violence. The sacrifice of Jesus opens an un-expected way to possibilities that are constantly renewed.
What I suggest is not passive surrender to the world of sin, but unwavering devotion to the covenant of Love.


- gbausc - 11-15-2004

Shlama John,

Some people talk of love and they talk of love;
Others simply lay down their lives for their friends .
Were Canada and India liberated without war ? Even if they were, which I do not grant, certainly in the case of Canada, what have they done to liberate others ? Who wants to be like India ?
Even Canada does nothing to liberate other nations.

You conveniently overlook the many millions we liberated in Europe and Japan. Apparently that means nothing to you; perhaps it was evil to you, because it was done by violence.
I would rather face a terrorist on the street with a friend at my side whose love for his friends and country would not flinch at shooting the terrorist than with a man who wanted to show his love for the terrorist.
You wrote:
Quote:I have a friend presently stationed in Iraq, and he says that the people prefer security to freedom. Saddam gave them security. Most Iraqi's are not willing to participate in the upcoming elections because they are afraid that it will make them the targets of insurgents. If it is not safe to vote, then it is not safe to call it a democracy.


I have a friend whose son is fighting in Falujah; I have a nephew who is stationed in Baghdad. As we have liberated Afghanistan, so are we liberating Iraq. Afghanistan has already had free elections. The people turned out in droves, even though it was dangerous to do. Did you not know this, or is it too much of a paradigm shift for your world view to admit that war can have such positive and liberating results, almost overnight ?

I have read from an Assyrian American pastor who
had relatives in Iraq that his prolonged visit there before the war proved to him that the people there were almost unanimous in wanting America to fight Saddam and free them from his "security".

Who ever said love precludes war ? Sometimes love demands war.Where in the sermon on the mount does Jesus say to stand by and pray while your friends are being killed ?
The sermon on the mount says to love your enemies, as God loves His enemies. God sometimes kills His enemies.
"There is a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build up, a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace."
The sermon on the mount teaches an individual how to treat other individuals who personally affront him. "Turn the other cheek", "Bless them that curse you", "Do good to them that hate you."

I have the right and prerogative to be merciful to him that hates me.I have no right to do so to him that hates my country and all that live in it.Neither have you the right to forgive and "love" those who hate and persecute me. This is a gross misapplication of the sermon on the mount.

No man has the right to forgive another nation for its crimes and hate. No group of government officials has that right. God may do so, and God alone.
A man who stands by and watches another murder his friend and does not all in his power to stop it , even to the point of killing the attacker, cannot speak of his great love for others.

Can you have love without hate for those who seek to kill those you love ?

Jesus preached love; He also preached hate. You apparently are in denial of this, as are many.
Can you have hot without cold, good without evil, light without darkness ?
Of course not !
There is no peace without war. When has peace ever been won without war ? In a world where evil exists, war is inevitable and necessary to preserve the good from attack.
Where do terrorists and dictators simply go away by human decree or negotiation ? Do you deny the effectiveness and good of defeating Adolf Hitler, Mussolini, & Hirohito by war ? Millions of people were liberated and given democratic governments in many countries as a result.

Bin Ladin addressed the USA in his video.
Quote:People of America this talk of mine is for you and concerns the ideal way to prevent another Manhattan, and deals with the war and its causes and results.

The "states" are The United States. No other nation is addressed in this video.

You wrote:
Quote:UBL claims that his initiative to attack America came about due to his horror & outrage over American military involvement in aggression against Palestine & Lebanon, which he experienced as a threat to the autonomy and security of Muslim nations.

So apparently you agree with Bin Ladin. We are the oppressors; He is the freedom fighter, liberating the nations.

20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Iraq will have free elections in a couple months, as did Afghanistan just recently. Two democracies will have been established in The Arab world by the evil oppressors -The USA ,once again imposing freedom on unwilling peoples by imperialistic force.

The "Freedom fighters of Al Kaida" will oppose those democratic governments, because they know that true freedom comes by the oppressive dictatorship and hate of Osama and Saddam.

Another word from The Christ (Whom you have not distinguished from The OT Jehovah Who commanded war on many occassions):

Now if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then doth his kingdom stand?
And Jesus called them, and said to them, by similitudes: How can Satan cast out Satan?


Satan has been cast out of two countries. The Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons by Satan's power. Jesus responded "By whom do your disciples cast them out?"
The critics of Christ's works have a lot to say; they have no power and can do nothing.

God has established the United States of America as a beacon of liberty, hope and opportunity to the world and every human spirit aspires to that liberty, hope and opportunity.

There is an enemy to liberty. He has possessed many to oppose our country. We have used our power for freedom. We never possessed Mexico nor oppressed Mexico, nor any other nation. If you want to point to the indian nations, I would say that all peoples have benefited from our presence and even our abuses against the blacks has been turned to a blessing for their descendants.

I don't see too many blacks opting for the jungles of Africa today, from whence they were taken as slaves.
We are not a perfect nation. Israel was never a perfect nation. I believe we are a chosen nation, as was Israel and still is.

We have a goodly heritage:
Psalms 144:
That our sons may be as plants grown up in their youth; that our daughters may be as corner stones, polished after the similitude of a palace:
13 That our garners may be full, affording all manner of store: that our sheep may bring forth thousands and ten thousands in our streets:
14 That our oxen may be strong to labour; that there be no breaking in, nor going out; that there be no complaining in our streets.
15 Happy is that people, that is in such a case: yea, happy is that people, whose God is the LORD.

Psalms 147:

Praise the LORD, O Jerusalem; praise thy God, O Zion.
13 For he hath strengthened the bars of thy gates; he hath blessed thy children within thee.
14 He maketh peace in thy borders, and filleth thee with the finest of the wheat.
15 He sendeth forth his commandment upon earth: his word runneth very swiftly.
16 He giveth snow like wool: he scattereth the hoarfrost like ashes.
17 He casteth forth his ice like morsels: who can stand before his cold?
18 He sendeth out his word, and melteth them: he causeth his wind to blow, and the waters flow.
19 He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel.
20 He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD.

If ever God has chosen and blessed any nation, God has chosen and blessed The United States of America. He has done so, not because we are better than other people. He has done so because our forefathers honored Him and received His truth concerning equality before God and the natural yearning of the human spirit for "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

As long as we honor those things and seek to instill these in our people and hold them out to others under oppression, helping all we can to attain to liberty, we shall prosper and prevail over
the enemy of mankind.

Yes, the day will come "when they shall learn war no more." Now, evil still exists in the world. Do not, however, confuse a Bin Ladin with a George Bush, nor the desires and motives of the two. They are worlds apart.

Do the angels follow the sermon on the mount ?

Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels.

Apparently they do not interpret it as do you.

And every war in Heaven is matched by a war on earth, do not doubt it.

And Heaven wins.

I believe in the ultimate triumph of good over evil, and am a universalist, I don't know about you.


Well, enough for now.

Blessings,

Dave


- John Stephens - 11-15-2004

It seems apparent that none of my points have been taken in the spirit that I intended, and I did not intend to initiate an open-ended debate over who is right & wrong. I assure you that my "talk and talk about Love" will be driven by direct action in my own community, and if it is God's will that I sacrifice my life for my brothers & sisters, I will be ready.

I will continue to appreciate your contributions to Aramaic bible study, and should you ever hunger, thirst, mourn, or suffer, you may count on me to help in any way I can. There is another way than war; it can work; it HAS worked; it can work again; we can make it happen. May the Lord give you peace.

loving regards,
john paul


To dear John Stephens - se7en - 11-15-2004

Dear John,

I know those posts were between you and Dave... but I wanted to thank you for posting that for I took it in the spirit that it was given.. of someone who is really listening to what Jesus was/is teaching us. It does my heart good to hear someone who does not just wear christianity as a label but follows the spirit of it... bless you.

Yes, I agree that Jesus was right as well as divine in his philosphy and teachings. He understood that hate breeds hate and without forgiveness, understanding and compassion, the viscous cycle will consume humanity... and war leaves so many wounds that the world is so wounded that the vicous cycle has led to the age of terrorism, and perhaps more war is not the answer, except as a defense... and I believe afghanistan invasion was justified and wish Bush had done a better job of getting all of alquada and getting bin ladin.. at least he did end the taliban and the evil they did not only to us, but to their own people, especially their women.

Unfortunately, it seems that the more a political leader waves his christianity, the less he takes it into consideration in his foreign policies... and I believe that the war in Iraq did far more bad for both americans and iraqis than good for either... and only helped terrorists like bin ladin and even worse ones probably in the works... and that some use christianity to enflame a religious war worries me, as a chrisitan especially. As Ghandi once said, he loved our Jesus but hated our christianity... and that is becuase the religion and people that use it to justify their feelings of superiority to exploit, opress and murder others, have not a clue what Jesus was trying to bring to the world. I believe he was not just trying to save our souls but also trying to save humanity from the greedy selfish unforgiving compassionless warmongers that humanity can't seem but help but be.

And if christianity in his name is not about his teachings of how we should forgive, understand, be compassionate, charitable, not greedy, etc. etc..then it makes one wonder what is the real value of religion... it should be to make us good and closer to God through our goodness and contributers to humanity through our compassion and charity and kindess, but instead, it seems to be used as a tool to help the human mind deny the evil and wrongs it does, by saying i am a good person of religion and of God, so I don't have to really think about my deeds and words and thoughts, so I can be selfish and greedy and brainwashed... that is why although still a follower of Jesus' divine teachings, I no longer have affliations with any hypocritical religious institutes.

I am never surprised by how those who proclaim their religion, of all faiths, including terrorists, are the ones that think they can do all kinds of evil under the fake shield of their religion. I think religion has failed humanity and in a technologically dangerous world, it might just self fullfill that crazy armeggedon stuff, unless more people listen to people like you. Bless you. I agree that if we don't start finding more enlightened ways to solve the worlds problem and stop the hate and greed and cycle of wars, that in our technological age, we are all in grave danger... as well as our souls. Jesus knew this even in his time and if people really listened as you do rather than just making a damning others, ritualistic feel good save you by believing religion, then his teachings would have saved the world.. hopefully it is not too late but maybe it is... and that is sad.

Peace.
Shushan


Gentle Jesus Meek & Mild ? - gbausc - 11-16-2004

John and Shushan,

It would seem Jesus was an abject failure, to those who believe He came to end all war.

But The Jesus I hear you preaching is a namby pamby Jesus with very low testosterone levels who would be impotent to save any red blooded young man, let alone a world of people.

This "Jesus" you speak of sounds like a hero at an old ladies club , drinking tea and eating croissants.

I know now that you don't believe He is Who He said He is (Jehovah), according to the Peshitta.

You speak of His "divine teachings", but you seem not to believe He is who He said He is. CS Lewis said very wisely: "If Jesus of Nazareth is not who He said He is , we would have to conclude that He was either a lunatic or The Devil from Hell."

He has not left open the option to us that He was a great moral teacher, merely.

He is The God of Heaven, or he was a deceiver.

I believe the former, and as such, I cannot see Jehovah as a pacifist. He never was a pacifist and never will be.

There is a great disconnect with many between the Old Testament and The New Testament; between Jehovah of the OT and Jesus in The NT.

This is not the view our Lord took. He claimed to be the God of the Old Testament. As such, He would not become a different Person by taking human nature upon Himself.

Jesus had no argument with the Old Testament; He authored it ! He was the LORD of Israel .
These things are beyond dispute to a Christian.

Any teaching contrary to this is not Christian and is anti-Christ, all Christian claims notwithstanding.

John, you speak of being your brother's keeper.
Are the citizens of Iraq your brothers, or do only the members of Al Kaida qualify.
You are commanded to love your neighbor as yourself. If you lived in Iraq, you would want to be liberated from a Saddam Hussein. If you are an honest man, you will admit this.

Surrendering to terrorists is no way to liberate a nation nor to retain our own freedoms; anything short of military action against them would be a surrender, as far as they are concerned. They would overrun us all.

Freedom would die, my brother. How they love your view of Christianity ! They do not seek freedom. They seek dominion over us and over all.

If you believe Bin Ladin, you believe lies.

And who said the following ?

"Think not I am come to send peace on the earth; I have not come to send peace, but a sword"

Certainly not "Gentle Jesus , meek and mild,look upon a little child."

No, but The Messiah "Jehovah of armies" Yahweh Sabaoth in Hebrew; [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]tw0bu 0yrm[/font]- "Marya Sabaoth" in Aramaic.

"De 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
."
Do not speak to me of a pacifist Jesus. There never was such a person.

If there had been, He could not have saved a gnat.

"He came to destroy him that had the power of death, that is the Devil." Hebrews 2:14


Dave


Re: Gentle Jesus Meek & Mild ? - Paul Younan - 11-16-2004

gbausc Wrote:If you lived in Iraq, you would want to be liberated from a Saddam Hussein. If you are an honest man, you will admit this.

Honestly, people, I have relatives in Iraq (Baghdad) who are happy beyond words over what we have done. Is it hard on them right now? You bet. But it's not the Americans who are harassing them, it's the Islamic fundamentalists who are beheading them and bombing their churches and kidnapping their children.

They were freed from Saddamned by this great nation of ours, let us pray they are delivered from Saracen oppression as well.

Khati Shushan, you know as well as I do who has been oppressing our Christian Assyrian people for the last 1,400 years with genocide, massacre, jizya taxes and dhimmitude. Your grandparents went through it last in 1915-1918, and now it's happening again.....and again, there is only one party to blame.

GOD bless America.


Re: To dear John Stephens - John Stephens - 11-17-2004

Dave,

You are welcome to come join me for dinner some time, and I will be glad to discuss this with you further. I am not interested, however, in taking part in an protracted vitriolic debate on the internet. Through no fault of your own, you seem to be getting caught up in semantic noise and missing some very critical points in my messages, and I don't have time to keep redirecting the conversation.

There are numerous people within our own era who have taken on the vocation to which the Sermon calls us, notably Lucretia Mott, Gandhi, Dr. King, and hundreds of others. These peacemakers have fearlessly engaged some of the most intense and violent situations with the tidings of the Gospel to lift their brothers and sisters ??? even their enemies ??? out of lives of injustice and despair. Many of them have given up their lives, but it is almost unbelievable the number of lives they have transformed. It is irresponsible to call such people "namby pamby;" they may have been singularly heroic, but if we devoted as much time and energy and training in learning to fulfill the Gospel as we do to its abrogation, perhaps the deeds of these would not stand out so starkly in our culture.

War itself is only a symptom of a far deeper malady ??? we must live "in the virtue of that life and power that takes away the occasion of all wars." I do not advocate a passive role for Christians. I agree with you that we must uproot evil in this world; we must uproot it in our own hearts and in our families and communities. Our Father has given us the means to uproot evil by the power of redemptive forgiveness. For those who are servants of the new covenant, God has established a way to transform mankind.
se7en Wrote:And if christianity in his name is not about his teachings of how we should forgive, understand, be compassionate, charitable, not greedy, etc. etc..then it makes one wonder what is the real value of religion... it should be to make us good and closer to God through our goodness and contributers to humanity through our compassion and charity and kindess, but instead, it seems to be used as a tool to help the human mind deny the evil and wrongs it does, by saying i am a good person of religion and of God, so I don't have to really think about my deeds and words and thoughts, so I can be selfish and greedy and brainwashed... that is why although still a follower of Jesus' divine teachings, I no longer have affliations with any hypocritical religious institutes.
Shushan,

Thank you for your loving words. I understand your difficulty. It is evident that our world will continue its inertial descent into apocalyptic nihilism until regular folks are willing to turn off their televisions and focus on healing the divisions in their own communities. This work of teaching and healing through redemptive forgiveness was the backbone of Yeshua's earthly ministry.

James 4:1-2: Yaqub/James the Apostle Wrote:From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
This culture seems to have prevailed among the early disciples of "the Way" until the time of Constantine, when Christianity was ordained into service of the Empire.

Evangelical Christians are being demeaned, debased, and exploited by the prevailing order of domination & violence in our society, an order which is being perpetuated by powers on both ends of the political spectrum - perhaps more insidiously than any other group in the US. It may be tempting to count ourselves outside of that community, but I see that as a bad turn. Our separated brethren must be embraced with patience & determination. We must do nothing to turn them away from God.

Each of us must listen deeply and intensely for our own calling in the century before us, and then work toward it with loving devotion regardless of the suffering that it entails.
Romans 12:1: Shaul the Apostle Wrote:I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
May our service be guided and blessed by Our Father.

loving regards,
john paul


... - se7en - 11-17-2004

hi Paul,

I agree.. God bless America... and all humanity.

I also agree that the hate that has bred in the middle east of the milenia in the people there are what has made the disfunction there that destroyed the lives of so many of my assyrian christian relatives in Turkey a hundred years ago. And if you read and believe the OT then it started with our ancestors invading and opressing and be brutal to their enemies... then who was next, their enemies brutally destroying their civilization and people and their old captors writing a religion around demonizing them... then the romans like the greeks before them, with their imperialist world domination and all the horrors and injustices of brutal invaders... and then later the christian crusades further injustices to both jews and muslims... perhaps those crusades and invasions are what caused the disfunction in islam of jihads and infadels... then the muslims for the past milenia and a half have been doing the invading, genocides, forced conversions, beheading etc. etc. and the way they treat their women as chattle, is what breeds this disfunction and then all the imperialists that have exploited their resources and the world wars and the promises made and not kept to our assyrian christian ancestors who then were left to the muslim wolves to be slaughter for the side they took and the common religion of who the muslims saw as their enemies and tormentors... and the viscous cycle continues... and now we have terrorists and our good country of america got a hard hit so we hit back... an eye for an eye... as ghandi said will make the whole world blind.. but i agree we have to stop terrorism and it would be nice if we also stopped exploitation and imperalism so we no longer fuel hate and give them a recruiting tool... and I do think we should have hit afghanistan, the taliban, alquada and osama even harder than bush did... but as much as the world and iraq are better off without that evil egomaniac sadam, i think it was the wrong time for the wrong reason... now, if democracy suceeds and even years down the line iraq is prosperous and terrorism is curtailed, then yes, it was right and worth it from global perspective.. but never worth it to the lives lost... but we have to secure the world and america did a lot in the world wars to secure the world from the german maniacs of that time, and then the cold war from the communist agression and expansion, and now from islamic extermist terrorists... so yes, God bless america... but we also have to understand and have compassion and not attack under false premises or pretenses... even if just the appearnce of it... cause we need to stop terrorism every way we can including wars if that is the only defense, and other operative devices, but also by stopping things that fuel terrorism.. my personal belief is that saying the way islam and the middle east treat women is a cultural thing we can do nothing about is bunk... if we want a revolution, then we need to get women justice in the middle east... for the way they grow up thinking about and treating women is in my opinion causing a mass psychosis and an unhealthy disfunctional society and it is far more connected to the problems of terrorism in my opinion than we see on the surface... for if you can degrade your mother, your wife, your sister, your daughter and think of them as having less value and allow injustices from oppressions to honor killings etc.. as acceptable, then you breed an evil mentality that can easily do the same to those who are incovenient or annoying to you... or you see as an enemy... that to me is the root of the problem, both cause and symptom... and as for my ancestors as you noted, Paul, yes I know who has oppressed and murdered them, but I also know the rest of the "civilized" world not only looked on and did nothing, but still denies what has been done and even that assyrians exist... so assyrians have far greater problems than america invading iraq... but those there are now in a far worse situation than before cause before they had an equal opportunity opressor but a stabile community, and now they are facing another genocide by these extermists nuts... and I hope america and the world takes measures to protect them but it seems to me they are ignoring them and leaving them to the wolves to fend for themselves and be punished by the extermists nuts for their support of america... so yes, god bless america... but as a patriotic america, i am not blind to our faults... and i hope that we correct our faults for as jesus said, if you live by the sword then you die by the sword.. and i am all for self defense and even extreme measures to stop terrorism, but not for initiating wars on false premises that wind up making terrorism worse.

peace and love,
shush