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use of OS by ancient Aramaic-speaking Christians
#16
Shlama Akhi Dave,

What Voobus views as "alien" elements are, in reality, bad grammar. Of course it is not found in classical "Syriac" or the Aramaic of the Peshitta. The Peshitta is used as the textbook in university-level Aramaic classes. The Old Scratch is not. For good reason.

Sometimes scholars wanting to make a footprint in academia will come up with all sorts of theories just to be different. You saw the same thing happen with Burkitt, the fool, who insisted that Rabbula MUST have been the person responsible for the Peshitta.

Like I said, Akhi, I don't care what "scholars" think. You can stick 10 of them in a room with the same exact evidence and come out with 9 different theories.

The evidence is what counts. Trimm, too, tries to play that "OS has semiticisms that the Peshitta doesn't" game. It doesn't work with me. Remember his supposed "Khad Semiticism?" If not, re-read my post on the Aramaic Primacy 101 forum to refresh, as it is the exact same topic we are discussing here.

I would hope that Voobus came up with better examples than Trimm did of the supposed "Semiticisms" the OS has, that the Peshitta supposedly doesn't.

Does he list any? Or is this a wild-goose chase that he wished to send us on like Yuri does?
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#17
Shlama Akhi Paul,

No, I don't have any big personal stake in this, because my position on this matter, just like on the matter of Aphrahat using the Diatessaron, is in fact identical to the mainstream scholarly position.

I'm not the one who's on the outside looking in, so why should I take these matters personally?

I'm only the messenger bringing you these news, so it won't do much good to shoot the messenger...

My only agenda is to try and bring more co-operation among all Aramaic researchers, so that they can work together to challenge the prevailing Egyptian Greek dogma. But I guess this is a bit more difficult than I thought.

The question of scientific methodology is very important, because this is the only way the academic mainstream can be challenged on their own ground. They will not pay much attention to any argument that is based on faith and/or tradition.

So I encourage you to clarify your position further in this area. It's quite OK to say that faith and tradition is what matters to you most, and the science is only secondary -- as long as you go on record clearly about this, so that there's no misunderstanding.

But if you see scientific research as your main goal, then some of the things you've been saying clearly seem to be in contradiction with this.

It is my belief that, in order to further the course of Aramaic and Peshitta studies, it is important to follow the standard scientific methodology as much as possible, rather than to isolate oneself from the scholarly mainstream. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is how I think.

Paul Younan Wrote:Besides, are we comparing apples and oranges. You do realize, don't you, that although Old Scratch is a Palimpset....it's the text that is erased, right?

No, I'm not comparing apples and oranges. In both cases, the text that had been erased was the biblical text.

Shlama,

Yuri.
Yuri Kuchinsky | Toronto | <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm">http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm</a><!-- m -->
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#18
judge Wrote:
yuku Wrote:I've presented the whole phrases from Aphrahat that agree with the Diatessaron and/or the Old Syriac word for word -- the phrases that are not in the Peshitta. But that was not seen as persuasive...
.

Hi again Yuri,

... I searched back through some old posts and found this...

<!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=65">viewtopic.php?t=65</a><!-- l -->

but it does not appear you have shown Aphrahat quotes the old syriac here.
Did you have something else in mind?

Shlama, Judge,

This thread,

<!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=65">viewtopic.php?t=65</a><!-- l -->

contains a discussion of Luke 1:13, where Mar Aphrahat, Mar Ephrem, and the OS Sinaitic all have the addition of "God" hearing Zacharias' prayer. But the Peshitta has a shorter version here, along with the Greek.

This thread,

Mar Aphrahat, OS Mk 10:20, and the Diatessaron (Sep 29, 2003)
<!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=204">viewtopic.php?t=204</a><!-- l -->

contains some further analysis in this area. Here are the Conclusions,

[quote]

When compared with various other versions of this passage, this citation from Mar Aphrahat seems to demonstrate a very close connection of the gospel text, as used by Mar Aphrahat, with the Old Syriac Mark, as preserved for us in the Sinaiticus palimpsest ("The Old Scratch"). On the other hand, the Peshitta reads very differently here.

Also, this study demonstrates that Mar Aphrahat probably based his Commentary on the Old Syriac Diatessaron, rather than on the separate Old Syriac gospels. This is the most economical way to explain why the Markan and the Matthean elements are combined so closely in this citation from Mar Aphrahat.

[unquote]

Also, this same episode of the "Rich Young Man", as cited by Mar Aphrahat, contains many other such readings.

Shlama,

Yuri.
Yuri Kuchinsky | Toronto | <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm">http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm</a><!-- m -->
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#19
"Old Scratch" Diatesseron?

The Arabic copy we have reads identically to the Peshitta. You don't have any "Old Syriac" Diatesseron. Nice fake name you coined in order to try and give the Old Scratch some credentials! It's pure speculation without a shred of evidence.

See, this is the type of "junk scholarship" that I'm talking about.

And you keep talking about scientific methodology and accusing ME of being a person to whom faith and tradition have a more important role than science.

Please, Akhi. Give it up. Give us evidence, or else YOUR tradition and YOUR faith in "scholarly consensus" are more important to YOU than scientific evidence.

You were thoroughly routed on the supposed Mar Aphrahat examples you gave, and you know it. That's why you appealed to a text that doesn't even physically exist anymore (the so-called "Old Syriac Diatesseron")....so there would be no way to prove you wrong. How can I prove what the "Old Syriac Diatesseron" did say? How can you prove what the "Old Syraic Diatesseron" didn't say? This is absolutely ridiculous and absolute Junk Science.

The Diatesseron was made from the 4 Peshitta gospels - and the Arabic copy we have proves it. It says RIGHT ON THE MANUSCRIPT that it was translated DIRECTLY from the original Aramaic of the Diatesseron. But again, your types directly ignore that evidence because it doesn't fit into the nice little scenario you guys have built in order to discredit the original Aramaic scriptures. Junk Science, 101.

You come here pretending to be simply searching for a way to "unite" Aramaic scholarship, when all the while you are a snake whose ultimate goal is to further Greek primacist agenda.....just a different Greek primacy than the mainstream Egyptian school.

And then you have the gall to try and diminish our work and our significance here by saying "your message will not get attention outside of Peshitta.org" - as if we need you or your scholar buddies, who can't even speak it, for anything.

Tell you what - I challenge you or any of your "scholar/professor" buddies to a debate, to be held anywhere in the world at my personal expense, on this very topic. I have only two conditions: that the entire debate will be conducted in Aramaic - any dialect you want, you pick - and two, that I am able to host the video on this website for the world to see how I thoroughly embarrass whoever you put in front of me.

You guys are slippery, I'll give you that much.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#20
Shlama Akhay,

Here is the 2004 "Resurrection of the Lord" epistle from the Patriarch of the Church of the East. It contains several scriptural targums, or paraphrases, that match nothing in existence word-for-word. Not the Peshitta, not the Old Scratch, nothing.

Oh-oh, Yuri - I think Mar Dinkha, in the year 2004, is quoting that long-lost "Old-Scratch Diatesseron" you've been talking about lately! He must be! His references to scripture don't match anything we know of word-for-word, so this MUST BE that long-lost "Old Scratch Diatesseron" that you guys so often hide behind!

It can't POSSIBLY BE that's he's paraphrasing, or "targumming", can it? Maybe the museums should contact His Holiness, since apparently he has a copy of the long-lost "Old Scratch Diatesseron" that he's stashed away all along!

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+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#21
yuku Wrote:
judge Wrote:
yuku Wrote:I've presented the whole phrases from Aphrahat that agree with the Diatessaron and/or the Old Syriac word for word -- the phrases that are not in the Peshitta. But that was not seen as persuasive...
.

Hi again Yuri,

... I searched back through some old posts and found this...

<!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=65">viewtopic.php?t=65</a><!-- l -->

but it does not appear you have shown Aphrahat quotes the old syriac here.
Did you have something else in mind?

Shlama, Judge,

This thread,

<!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=65">viewtopic.php?t=65</a><!-- l -->

contains a discussion of Luke 1:13, where Mar Aphrahat, Mar Ephrem, and the OS Sinaitic all have the addition of "God" hearing Zacharias' prayer. But the Peshitta has a shorter version here, along with the Greek.

This thread,

Mar Aphrahat, OS Mk 10:20, and the Diatessaron (Sep 29, 2003)
<!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=204">viewtopic.php?t=204</a><!-- l -->

(snip)

Shlama,

Yuri.

Thanks Yuri.

I think that your original words may be improved upon. I don't think it is really accurate to say....."I've presented the whole phrases from Aphrahat that agree with the Diatessaron and/or the Old Syriac word for word."

What we seem to have is whole phrases that do not agree word for word but are however closer in some points than the peshitta.

It is difficult to see how this could be evidence in a scientific sense.
This evidence does not compare to quotes from Aphrahat which actually do read word for word the same as the peshitta.

What do you think?
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#22
What does he think? I think it's pretty clear what he thinks, he thinks what he wants/needs to think based on his faith in "scholarly consensus."

Why else would he not have answered this post?

http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=228

Or this one?

http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=273

How about this little cutie?

http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=400

Or this mother of all examples?

http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=231

Or this father of all examples?

http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=224

And plenty of others on the Aramaic Primacy 101 forum!

I'll tell you why he hasn't answered any of those challenges. It's because Yuri is REAL good at going on forums and pretending to be an expert at a topic which he really knows very little about. I'm not even talking about speaking, or even being able to READ, the Aramaic. No. He's already admitted that he can't even read it when I openly challenged him to.

I'm talking about Yuri going around and collecting quotes from people on the internet and, his favourite technique, quoting Greek Primacist scholars (mind you, none of them actually speak or read the language) as authoratative on the issue.

This, he calls "science." What I do, of course, is "faith" and "tradition." Heheh.

Then he comes on and diminishes Peshitta.org, and says we should not settle for such little ambitions....a tiny little forum that the "scholarly world" ignores. No. We should have higher ambitions.....we should accept his quotes from western "scholars" who supposedly know what they are talking about.

It's that simple to Yuri, and other like him (Trimm, Ring, etc.) We need them. Isn't it obvious?

How much simpler their life will be for them when all of Aramaic dies out with the last native speaker. Then the likes of them, who sound authoritative and convincing enough to people even less knowledgeable than they, will rule the internet message boards without any challenge.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#23
Akhi Paul...

Love your zeal man! <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: --> Keep that train rolling on!

I think I feel another article coming on, but I need a little help here.

Exactly when is the Arabic Diatessaron translation dated to?

I would be particularly be interested in demonstrating that when we translate the Arabic BACK into Aramaic, and then parse the Diatessaron readings back into the separated Gospel readings, that what we have is verbatim peshitta text. The closer the Arabic is in time to the Diatessaron I think the stronger the argument. I seem to recall it might have been 8th century though. Even so, a worthy exercise, which would put the Peshitta to the middle of the second century or earlier. Of course, I believe that is accomplished with GOWRA and other things in the Greek being mistranslated fromt he Peshitta, but the more the merrier I say.

What do you think?
Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
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#24
Shlama Akhi Andrew,

For all about the 11th-century CoE translation of the original Aramaic Diatesseron into Arabic, see my post titled "The Diatesseron's Peshitta Pedigree" here:

http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=401

Remember, the Aramaic Diatesseron (or harmony of the 4 Peshitta Gospels) survived in the Persian church (CoE) until at least the 11th century, when the Arabic translation was commissioned by the secretary to the Patriarch himself.

This kills two birds with one stone, to use an English idiom. First bird is the "Rabbula suppressed the Diatesseron." How could he have suppressed the Diatesseron if it survived in Persia for 600 years after his death?

The second bird is the "Diatesseron differed from the Peshitta." In fact, the Diatesseron was exactly the same as the Peshitta, from which it was drawn and from which Tatian (who called himself an "Assyrian") harmonized the Gospel accounts. This, of course, had Burkitt shaking in the knees. So much did it worry him, that he falsely charged that the Arabic translation must have been vulgarized to contain Peshitta readings. This is junk science, without a shred of evidence to support it......the likes of which Yuri likes to quote and call "scholarly."

Oh my, oh my. How their proverbial house of cards falls......
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#25
Quote:This, he calls "science." What I do, of course, is "faith" and "tradition." Heheh.

I don't wanna preach here, but Faith is also coupled with Love.

I can understand the bias, but I don't understand the confrontational aspect from you guys towards Yuri. He makes very good points in places, and remains unbiased on the subject matter. He is not arguementive nor irrational. If you show him proof, he is totally and completely receptive towards your theories, and provides input that makes you and him think together.

Do you see yourselves here guys?

Generally, I learn a lot from you Paul, and feel that you are providing input towards a greater understanding on my part and the others watching on the sidelines, but confrontations are called for when another party is being totally irrational and confrontational in nature. I don't see Yuri doing that to you or anyone here.

Yea, view it as I'm sticking up for Yuri, I would for Mister Roth if someone was unjustly pointing fingers at him for things he wasn't doing and making fun of him, and definetly would do the same for you Paul, I'm sure you know that.

If I read Yuri right, he makes some very keen observations. For instance, who really is out there to challenge ol' Trimm and his material?? Yea you guys are here and there on some message boards but that is completely immaterial. Think about it. How do you confront an unjust truth with truth? You provide material for others to compare and make reasonble judgements. As it stands, Trimm remains virtually unchallenged. His material will still be presented and read by many. In fact, his critical text of the Hebrew Matthew is very professionally done. It is made for the layperson and it shines in all respects. You could laugh, but remember your the minority in regards to the majority of people who will buy it and keep it. Remember? You and everyone else on the sidelines didn't provide anything to challenge it. Built on sand or not, it stands till something/someone blows it over.

That is one example, but it is a very valid one form Yuri.
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#26
Shlama Akhi Dave,

I don't mind if you stand up for Yuri, but I think you are being too kind.

Firstly, you should notice the general pattern of what Yuri has brought to the table here. Time and time again, he has made dogmatic declarations that have ultimately been proven wrong.

First, his dogmatic assertion that the Church of the East suppressed the Diatesseron. Proven wrong. No apology for this false accusation from Yuri. Not a peep.

Second, his dogmatic assertion that Church of the East fathers (like Aphrahat) used Old Scratch instead of the Peshitta. Proven wrong. Not a peep.

Third, his dogmatic assertion that the Peshitta, the eastern Peshitta and not the Peshitto, contained variants. Proven wrong. Not a peep.

Fourth, his dogmatic assertion that the Old Scratch was the basis for the Diatesseron. Proven wrong. Not a peep.

I could go on, but I won't.

It's obvious to those of us, perhaps with a less compassionate heart than you have, what Yuri is up to here. Maybe we're jerks - I don't know. But it sure seems to me there's a hidden agenda.

I present evidence, type the Aramaic from all sources and show it to you so that you can make up your own mind. Yuri, well, he gives quotes. And he calls this "science".....but all those examples of mine in the 101 forum that he hasn't even bothered to answer, well, those are "tradition" and "pride."

Disagree with me all you want. When someone ignores the scientific evidence I've shown, time and time again, by casually dismissing it as "tradition" and "pride" - then that person has pissed me off in a royal way.

Yuri isn't an "Aramaic Primacist" at all. Yuri is a "Yuri Primacist", unwilling to consider or acknowledge any scientific evidence that disproves his preconcieved notions.

He can prove me wrong by answering my posts. It's only been EIGHT MONTHS.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#27
Hey Paul,

Quote:It's obvious to those of us, perhaps with a less compassionate heart than you have, what Yuri is up to here. Maybe we're jerks - I don't know. But it sure seems to me there's a hidden agenda.

I know, along with many others, you have a deep reverence for the Peshitta, and that is totally understandable. Problem is that not everyone will have that sort of appreciation for it. I know what it is to find something that you love so much that you wanna show it to everyone so that they can enjoy it also, but no one is listening or cares around you. The more you try, the more confrontations you deal with in the process. It was like that when Jesus came into my life. To have a different view is not necessarily an agenda.

We are all able to form opinions, we all know this, and we will no matter what. The approach we take with our views and opinons amongst others will have a major impact in how we are outwardly viewed. How professional and mature we are with our counterparts changes more things than heated debate where both sides refuse to recognize the other.

I try to gain whatever I can from people around me. In the process, I feel I'm a better person for doing just that. I may have an open mind, but it won't be so open that my brains fall out, I'm quite careful. I don't view Yuri as the enemy here, he is no different that anyone with their views, but the thing that he has going for him is his approach, totally professional. Again, he doesn't become confrontational, he will just agree to disagree, which is fine. Maybe he should state that more.

I don't mean to undermind you by any means Paul, I like your approach to teaching and showing the little nuances that others are unaware of in the Peshitta, and when you do that, you open up my interest greatly, and I'm sure others also.

Anyways, I don't wanna wax poetic here. No matter what, the things we do are always judged. Social acceptance is a hard thing always.
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#28
Hello Dave,

You see ... what Yuri has done here is a form of racial discrimination. If Paul was an Anglo or some other nationality, Yuri would never have leveled that sort of assertion that Paul is motivated by "pride" or "tradition". Yuri would be forced to deal with Paul's arguments and evidence on a level playing field rather than resorting to a "low-blow" attempt at dismissing Paul's position.

This is a common tactic used when one realizes they are loosing an argument.

-Dean
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#29
Thank you, Akhi Dean, for being the first person to understand.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#30
Shlama all--

I can very easily see Akhan Paul's frustration here. In fact I share it. There does seem to be a general nose thumbing at his traditions, even though Paul shows how his tradition is based on history and linguistics. It's all too easy to discount the Semite foreigner in your midst. The West has done that for thousands of years, when they were not trying to wipe this tribe or that off the face of the earth that is. Sound harsh? Not if you read Constantine, Tamerlane, Genghis Khan and Hitler.

Let's be clear here: The western scholars and their ilk are saying that they do NOT trust the word of the Church of the East, that the Church of the East cannot tell the difference between the real Peshitta manuscripts and Old Syriac that they claim to have never used, that the Church of the East deliberately obscured or otherwise ripped from their annals "proof" that the Peshitta is revised from Old Syriac. This, the west says, the COE did, EVEN THOUGH THEIR OWN BYLAWS, ANNALS AND RECORDS SCREAM THE REVERSE.

And here's somethng else: As a Nazarene Jew, if someone did that to my sacred traditions, I would also be just a tad abrupt after months and months of these assertions offered without a shred of proof. Like when someone called YHWH the name of an Egpytian deity. For shame!

Also, I do not appreciate some of the things that Yuri has said and that others have backed. Mainly, to say Trimm is "virtually unchallenged" is totally wrong. He has been challenged on this forum, on his own forums, and he has lost. He could not speak 30 seconds of Aramaic to Akhi Paul when challenged to a debate, and I have forced him to admit errors when he came on my forums, such as Smyrna being "restored from the Greek" in Crawford Revealtion as he said in HRV. (I read it myself in the mss). I fought Trimm on grammar errors in his egregious reading of Ephesians 2:15, the man does not even know that a dalet proclitic can't mean "because" between two nouns, nor does he understand the full meaning of key Aramiac words like NAMUSA and SHUKHALFA.

Furthermore, my books, the seminars I have taught, the lectures that I have given all over the country and my website ALL stand against James Trimm. My only thing is that I don't want to dignify his lists and lies with my presence, and I refuse utterly to allow him voice to bring out the same tired cr*p that has already been refuted. My essays TRUTH AND TRIMM went all over the internet and exposed him--I only revised them to tone down the harsh language but made it clear to James that my positions against hm stand in every respect. Most recently, a very promiment Messianic leader asked me why I was against Trimm and I told him in graphic detail--he accepted my reasoning. And I have caused more people NOT to buy the Horribly Ruined Version NT than anyone else on the web. We're talking rabbis who did not buy dozens of copies for their congregations, and indivuals who email me privately, one just yesterday, who won't have anything to do with him. You forget I'm a Nazarene too and move in the exact same circles James does. It's not slander or libel (or as my brethren say LASHON HARA) if it is true.

Obviously these facts though are not well known, perhaps because I'm just another Semite too??? Understand then and don't make this error again. As long as Paul and I draw breath and as long as we write and maintain a presence on the web, the evidence against Trimm will be catalogued and explained completely and often. This is NOT a personal attack, but to prevent our sacred text from being defiled. It is real scholarship from genuine Aramaic speakers against those who would dabble in it and think themselves clever enough to fool the uninitiated. That's it. Nothing more and nothing less.
Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
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