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Qnoma?...definition
#46
Shlama Akhi Abudar,

abudar2000 Wrote:But in the case of God the Divine nature which has three qnoma (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) all three qnoma are not individuated, but function as one, and have manifested in these three different ways of interacting with humanity.

I agree, but I should clarify what I meant by "individuated."

By "Individuated" I do not mean "Individual" - I mean only that something abstract has become something real.

"Individual" is more of a synonym for "Person", which is definitely not what a Qnoma means.

So therefore, there are not 3 "persons" or "individuals" in the Trinity, but there are three "individuated natures."
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#47
Breekh leelyo oh Paul,

So then God consists of these three qnom?? on a plain of existants which is outside of ours. The three qnom?? consist of the same "ithutho" (essence). So then the son consists of a divine "ithutho" (essence) which He shares (the son being one of the Trinity) with the Trinity (ie. The One God), and a human "ithutho" (essence) which he shares with His human mother.
Unlike regular humans which have both parents, and thus have the human "ithutho" (essence) of both parents. The Son has both human "ithutho" (essence) and Divine "ithutho" (essence), with the human "ithutho" (essence) providing the essence for His human body, as well as having two qnoma (one divine, and one human) which constitute His soul. As such together (human essence + soul) giving the final form of His person. With His Divine "ithutho" (essence) appearing in His soul only, and only manifesting in the body when He preformed miracles.

So when we say "bar ithutho davooy" (the son is of the same essence as the Father), then this essence is only found in His soul, or manifested when He preforms miracles.

Because of this we say that Jesus was Begotten and not made, since He shares the essence of the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which the three together consists of the Holy Trinity (ie. The One God). And as such the Divine essence of the Son has existsed since the beginning of time, and in His Divine essence is the One God just like the Father and the Holy Spirit are the One God, because the three are of the same essence, and as such are One, with One will.

But for humans since we haven't existed since the begining, we are created at the point that our parents engage in the act of procreation.

Does it match the definitions?

Tawdi Saggi qdom zban,
keefa-moroon

poosh bashlomo,
keefa-moroon
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#48
Akhi Paul,

george wrote:
Quote:2. From abstract divine nature to/through "individuated" divine Qnoma to concrete divine Person.
Paul wrote:
Quote:No. There is no such thing as a Divine Person. We do not speak of God as a "person", because a "person" means that you are physical

So at the most we can only deal with an "individuated" divine Qnoma, am I correct? Does a divine Qnoma have a will, feeling, mind, wisdom, anger?

Shlama, george
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#49
Shlama Akhi George,

george Wrote:So at the most we can only deal with an "individuated" divine Qnoma, am I correct?

Except for the Qnoma of the Son. That is was Incarnated and took for itself a temple of humanity, then we rightfully may call Meshikha a "Person."

You have to understand something about the word "Parsopa" - the literal meaning of this word is "face." In order to have a "face", you must physically exist.

That being said, there are some places in the Bible which refer metaphorically to the "face" of God. But this is not meant to be taken literally.

george Wrote:Does a divine Qnoma have a will, feeling, mind, wisdom, anger?

The definition of Qnoma is an individuated nature. As such, it encapsulates all of the characteristics of its nature.

All characteristics of the Divine nature are present, are encapsulated, within each Qnoma.

Likewise, all human Qnome share the same characteristics which they inherit from the human Nature.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#50
abudar2000 Wrote:Breekh leelyo oh Paul,

So then God consists of these three qnom?? on a plain of existants which is outside of ours. The three qnom?? consist of the same "ithutho" (essence). So then the son consists of a divine "ithutho" (essence) which He shares (the son being one of the Trinity) with the Trinity (ie. The One God), and a human "ithutho" (essence) which he shares with His human mother.
Unlike regular humans which have both parents, and thus have the human "ithutho" (essence) of both parents. The Son has both human "ithutho" (essence) and Divine "ithutho" (essence), with the human "ithutho" (essence) providing the essence for His human body, as well as having two qnoma (one divine, and one human) which constitute His soul. As such together (human essence + soul) giving the final form of His person. With His Divine "ithutho" (essence) appearing in His soul only, and only manifesting in the body when He preformed miracles.

So when we say "bar ithutho davooy" (the son is of the same essence as the Father), then this essence is only found in His soul, or manifested when He preforms miracles.

Because of this we say that Jesus was Begotten and not made, since He shares the essence of the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which the three together consists of the Holy Trinity (ie. The One God). And as such the Divine essence of the Son has existsed since the beginning of time, and in His Divine essence is the One God just like the Father and the Holy Spirit are the One God, because the three are of the same essence, and as such are One, with One will.

But for humans since we haven't existed since the begining, we are created at the point that our parents engage in the act of procreation.

Does it match the definitions?

Tawdi Saggi qdom zban,
keefa-moroon

poosh bashlomo,
keefa-moroon
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#51
Shlama Akhi Abudar,

That's a great explanation of the Personhood of Meshikha as understood by the universal Church.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#52
akhi paul wrote:
Quote:The definition of Qnoma is an individuated nature. As such, it encapsulates all of the characteristics of its nature.
All characteristics of the Divine nature are present, are encapsulated, within each Qnoma.
Question:
Are all of the attributes and characteristics of the Divine Nature, such as omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, present and encapsulated within each Qnoma?

Shlama Akhi Paul.

george
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#53
Shlama Akhi George,

george Wrote:Are all of the attributes and characteristics of the Divine Nature, such as omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, present and encapsulated within each Qnoma?

Yes, that is correct Akhi. See below:

Mar Bawai the Great, 6th c. Wrote:???A singular essence is called a ???qnoma???. It stands alone, one in number, that is, one as distinct from the many.

A qnoma is invariable in its natural state and is bound to a species and nature, being one (numerically) among a number of like qnome. It is distinctive among its fellow qnome only by reason of any unique property or characteristic which it possesses in its parsopa.

With rational creatures this uniqueness may consist of various external and internal accidents, such as excellent or evil character, or knowledge or ignorance, and with irrational creatures as also with the rational the combination of various contrasting features.

Through the parsopa we distinguish that Gabriel is not Michael, and Paul is not Peter. However, in each qnoma of any given nature the entire common nature is known, and intellectually one recognizes what that nature, which encompasses all its qnome, consists of. A qnoma does not encompass the nature as a whole, but exemplifies what is common to the nature, such as, in a human qnoma, body, soul, mind, etc..???

Here Mar Bawai sets forth qnoma as being a representative exemplar of a general nature. It is the essence of a given nature in concrete, realized form. It is the essential substratum upon which a parsopa is based. It is nature undifferentiated in any way from exemplary qnome of the same nature except for number, but differentiated both in number and essence from exemplary qnome of other natures.

This substratum of nature is further individualized only by the addition of accidents, phenomena which are not of the essence of a given nature, but which make it possible to distinguish one qnoma from another.

Nature is general and descriptive: qnoma is specific and exemplary. When Bawai speaks of Meshikha as ???God and man???, he insists on specificity: a divine qnoma (not the Holy Trinity) and a human qnoma (not mankind in general).

<center>[Image: qnoma.gif]</center>
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#54
Quote:abudar2000 wrote:
Qnoma -> An individual nature, which is distinct from others of the same nature.
paul replied:
Yes, but distinct only in number. It has no distinguishing characteristics that make up a "person." Other than number, it is exactly the same as other qnomas in the same Kyana. (therefore, all three Qnome of Alaha are the same

Quote:abudar wrote:Because of this we say that Jesus was Begotten and not made, since He shares the essence of the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which the three together consists of the Holy Trinity (ie. The One God). [color=darkred]And as such the Divine essence of the Son has existed since the beginning of time, and in His Divine essence is the One God just like the Father and the Holy Spirit are the One God, because the three are of the same essence, and as such are One, with One will.
paul replied:That's a great explanation of the Personhood of Meshikha as understood by the universal Church.
Quote:akhi paul wrote:
The definition of Qnoma is an individuated nature. As such, it encapsulates all of the characteristics of its nature.
All characteristics of the Divine nature are present, are encapsulated, within each Qnoma.

Quote:george's question:
Are all of the attributes and characteristics of the Divine Nature, such as omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, present and encapsulated within each Qnoma?
paul replied:
Yes, that is correct Akhi.

Akhi Paul, it seems that the Divine Essence/Kyana and the Divine Qnoma were confined during the period of Incarnation and Human life on earth of Maran Eashoa though the above questions and answers are all related with His Eternal attributes and characteristics. At least this is my limited perception so far.

Appreciate your elaborating this matter.


Shlama, george
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#55
Shlama Akhi George,

george Wrote:Akhi Paul, it seems that the Divine Essence/Kyana and the Divine Qnoma were confined during the period of Incarnation and Human life on earth of Maran Eashoa though the above questions and answers are all related with His Eternal attributes and characteristics. At least this is my limited perception so far.

Appreciate your elaborating this matter.

I would say "A Divine Qnoma", rather than "The Divine Qnoma". as there are three of them. In the personhood of Meshikha were two qnome - a divine qnoma (not all three) and a human qnoma (not all of mankind).

I'm not sure what you mean by confined in relation to the divine qnoma during the Incarnation - please explain.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#56
Shlama Akhi Paul,

A divine Qnoma in Maran Eashoa during incarnation and His life on earth had manifested its/his confinement in the aspect of omniscience such as:

1. John 2:1-11 The Miracle at Cana whereby initially Y'Shua said in verse 4 to His mother: "What is it to me and you, woman; the hour has not come yet", whilst in verse 7 He said: "Fill the waterpots with water". He did not lie in verse 4, did he? If He foreknew before hand on this miracle than He dare not to speak such a statement.

2. Matthew 26: 36-44 The Prayer at Gethsemane Y'Shua prayed in verse 39:" "My Father, if it is possible, get Me through this cup, however, not as I wish, except as You will." Verse 42:"My father, if it is not possible for this cup to pass, except that I drink it, let it be according to your will."
Here it was obvious that the will of a divine Qnoma in Maran Y'Shua is not in "oneness"/integrated with the will of the Father, and it might be that it is His human qnoma and human person that was actually expressing the three times prayer.

3. Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
Mark 13:32 "And about that day and about that hour, no human being shall know, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, except if the Father wills it.
Even His second coming is only known by the Father.

Hope this makes the term "confined" clearer.

george
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#57
Shlama Akhi George,

Oh yes, by that term you mean that there were times when the humanity of Meshikha showed, and there were other times when his Divinity showed - and that these times operated independently? Absolutely.

<center>
An Exposition of The Mysteries (Mar Narsai, 437 AD)

He was laid in a manger and wrapped in swaddling clothes, as Man;
and the watchers extolled Him with their praises, as God.
He offered sacrifices according to the Law, as Man;
and He received worship from the Persians, as God.
Simeon bore Him upon his arms, as Man;
and he named Him 'the Mercy' who showth mercy to all, as God.
He kept the Law completely, as Man;
and He gave His own new Law, as God.
[Image: bullet4.gif][Image: bullet4.gif][Image: bullet4.gif]
He was baptized in Jordan by John, as Man;
and the heaven was opened in honour of His baptism, as God.
He went in to the marriage-feast of the city of Canna, as Man;
and He changed the water that it became wine, as God.
He fasted in the wilderness forty days, as Man;
and watchers descended to minister unto Him, as God.
He slept in the boat with His disciples, as Man;
and He rebuked the wind and calmed the sea, as God.
[Image: bullet4.gif][Image: bullet4.gif][Image: bullet4.gif]
He set out and departed to a desert place, as Man;
and He multiplied the bread and satisfied thousands, as God.
He ate and drank and walked and was weary, as Man;
and He put devils to flight by the word of His mouth, as God.
He prayed and watched and gave thanks and worshipped, as Man;
and He forgave debts and pardoned sins, as God.
He asked water of the Samaritan woman, as Man;
and He revealed and declared her secrets, as God.
[Image: bullet4.gif][Image: bullet4.gif][Image: bullet4.gif]
He sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, as Man;
and He forgave the sinful woman her sins, as God.
He went up into the mountain of Tabor with His disciples, as Man;
and He revealed His glory in their sight, as God.
He shed tears and wept over Lazarus, as Man;
and He called him that he came forth by His mighty power, as God.
He rode upon a colt and entered Jerusalem, as Man;
and the boys applauded Him with their Hosannas, as God.
[Image: bullet4.gif][Image: bullet4.gif][Image: bullet4.gif]
He drew nigh to the fig-tree and shewed that He was hungered, as Man;
and His mighty power caused it to wither on a sudden, as God.
He washed the feet of His twelve, as Man;
and He called Himself Lord and Master, as God.
He ate the legal passover, as Man;
and He exposed the treachery of Iscariot, as God.
He prayed and sweated at the time of His passion, as Man;
and He scared and terrified them that took Him, as God.
[Image: bullet4.gif][Image: bullet4.gif][Image: bullet4.gif]
The attendants seized Him and bound His hands, as Man;
and He healed the ear that Simon cut off, as God.
He stood in the place of judgement and bore insult, as Man;
and He declared that He is about to come in glory, as God.
He bore His Cross upon His shoulder, as Man;
and He revealed and announced the destruction of Zion, as God.
He was hanged upon the wood and endured the passion, as Man;
and He shook the earth and darkened the sun, as God.
[Image: bullet4.gif][Image: bullet4.gif][Image: bullet4.gif]
Nails were driven into His body, as Man;
and He opened the graves and quickened the dead, as God.
He cried out upon the Cross 'My God, My God,' as Man;
and promised Paradise to the thief, as God.
His side was pierced with a spear, as Man;
and His nod rent the temple veil, as God.
They embalmed His body and He was buried in the earth, as Man;
and He raised up His temple by His mighty power, as God.
[Image: bullet4.gif][Image: bullet4.gif][Image: bullet4.gif]
He remained in the tomb three days, as Man;
and the watchers glorified Him with their praises, as God.
He said that He had received all authority, as Man;
and He promised to be with us for ever, as God.
He commanded Thomas to feel His side, as Man;
and He gave them the Spirit for an earnest, as God.
He ate and drank after His resurrection, as Man;
and He ascended to the height and sent the Spirit, as God.
[Image: bullet4.gif][Image: bullet4.gif][Image: bullet4.gif]

</center>
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#58
Shlama Akhi Paul,

Thank you for sharing with us a part of your "spiritual richness" in such a profound presentation. Everything is crystal-clear now with regard to Kyana, Qnoma, and Parsopa.

Your quoting one of the greatest poem in history (from my personal view) "An Exposition of The Mysteries" presented by Mar Narsai, 437 AD, (whom I value since the past ten months as one of the greatest artist and theologian of COE) concludes the answer I am looking for. My great respect also goes to Nestorius and Mar Bawai.

Keep the Joy!

george
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#59
Akhi George,

Thanks for listening with an open mind.

What happened to the CoE in Indonesia? I've read that before the coming of Tamerlane and the Turks (who wiped out 99% of the CoE), that it was very active in Indonesia, and especially the Jakarta area.

I guess after the Patriarch fled from Babylonia to hide in the mountains of northern Assyria for 600+ years, they just lost touch somehow?
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#60
Akhi Paul,

Most probably my last question on this subject:

Referring to the Diagram made by Mar Bawai and our belief that God is One, then is there any Godhead in the Holy Trinity? Can I say that the Father is the Godhead?

Shlama, george
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