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Questions for Abudar
#2
shlom lokh oh John,

For the first four lessons I'm keep it extremly simple, by avoiding any of the complex sound changes, and using the original sounds of the letters in accordance with Aramaic, by that I mean, Maronites usually pronounce the "p" as "ph" all the time, but I stuck with "p", because using the "ph" all the time is due to bad habits. As for changing the "k" to "kh" when appropriate, and the other consonants of "bgdkpt" that will be presented in Lesson 5. So the first four lessons are a simplistic apporach, but lesson 5 will introduce assimilation, mhaghyono, qushoyo & rukokho (just the sounds, and not the rules), etc...
The Maronites don't pronounce the "p", "v", "dh", and "th" (except in some rare instances) <- Due to bad habits, but originally they did pronounce them. And if you go back far enough they use to pronounce the zqoPHo as "a", and not "o".

AramaicScribe Wrote:Shlomo akh Keefo,

I was looking over the Syriac lessons on your website, and have a few questions about Maronite pronunciation which may be of interest to other peshitta.org forum users too.

1. Vowels.
Could you be more precise on how you actually pronounce the vowels? For example, the English letter ???A??? can represent the sound of ???a??? in ???father,??? or the ???a??? in ???about,??? or the ???a??? in ???at,??? or the ???a??? in ???cake,??? as well a several other distinct sounds. While I realize that English equivalents can only be approximate, something like the following would be very helpful:

??? zqopo = the ???oa??? in ???coal.???
??? ???soso = the ???oo??? in ???moon.???
??? Hvoso = the ???i??? in ???machine.???

I am especially interested in how you pronounce pthoHo and rvoSo.

Also, how do you pronounce the unwritten schwa sound? Is it a single sound like in most grammar books, or multiple semi-vowels like in Hebrew?

Before I give the way that I pronounce the vowels, there are people who pronounce their vowels half way, and as such have no long or short, and others will pronounce the vowels with long, short, and half way. Some of the vowels can be pronounced in different ways depending on where they show up in the word, and that is only picked up when it's learnt from someone who speaks the language. (I was thinking of changing the transliteration to reflect some of these special pronunciations.)

pTHoHo (or as the Maronite call it PHtoHo):
malko <- I would pronounce the "a" as in "father".

zqoPHo (originally this was pronounced as "a" in "about"):
malko <- I would pronounce the "o" as in "oscar".

rVoSo (or as the Maronite call it rboSo):
m??n <- I would pronounce the "??" here as in "ken". In reality I should have written it as "m??n" if I was following french conventions. | This is the normal sound through out the word, expect at termination.
malk?? <- I would pronounce the "??" here as in "effort". Only at emphatic termination of the word.
b??th <- I would pronounce the "??" here as in "train" -> the "??" would pronounced as "ai". | This sound occurs when you have a consonant with a rvoso vowel followed by a yudh.
qoy??m <- I would pronounce the "??" here as "ken". Here the word is "q,a,m", by tradition if an Olaph is in the word, and not the first Olaph of the word, then the Olaph becomes a Yudh.

HVoSo (or as the Maronite call it HboSo):
-shleeho <- I would pronounce the "ee" as in "feet" | HVoSo + Yudh is pronounced as "ee" in "feet".
-qadeesho <- Some would pronounce the "ee" as "i" in "bring".
-ee'o <- If you have a "yudh" + HVoSo, then you get "ee" as in feet, but not "yee".

'SoSo:
-shoobho <- I would pronounce "oo" as "u" in "put".
-phoomo <- I would pronounce "oo" as "oo" in "doom".

Here's the trditional Maronite way of learning vowels:
PHtoHo <- as in abrohom
zqoPHo <- as in odom
rboSo <- as in ??SHa'yo
HboSo <- as in eeleeyo
'SoSo <- as in ooreeya

We don't pronounce the SHwa, but there are rules for it which indicate where it should be located in a word, and as such cause clustering. It has no Syriac symbol, but some people who transliterate it will write it out as a superscripted reversed "e". And it is called the little vowell or half-vowel.

Ex: SHmayo -> SH-ma-yo (The SHwa is located in front of the "SH")
If we apply geminiation -> SH-may-yo
Maronites don't use gemination (but they did in the past), but the rules are still taught. One distinctive feature of how the Maronites teach it is, in words like aKHi the "KH" is not geminated, where as in Eastern Aramaic they will geminate it, like the word aKH-KHeel.

AramaicScribe Wrote:2. Vocalized Consonants.
On page 6 of lesson 2 you transliterate the sounds of gomal + rvoSo as ???gue??? and gomal + HvoSo as ???guee.??? Does the ???u??? represent a glide sound, or something else?

I was attempting to cause people to pronounce "gee" as the first "g" in "garbage", instead of "g" as in "George".
Since in the word "guest" the "gu" gave that sound, I thought it would be a way of forcing people to pronounce the "g" as in "got".

AramaicScribe Wrote:3. What About Diphthongs?
For example, in lesson 4 page 1 you transliterate ???heavens as??? shma-yo. Isn???t pthoHo + yud pronounced something like ???eye,??? making ???heavens??? shmeye-yo? Most grammars list a number of diphthongs for western Syriac. What diphthongs does the Maronite Tradition use?

Here are the basic rules of Diphtongues:
When at the end of a syllable and you have a "w" or "y", then you get a diphtongue, with the exception of 'SoSo and HvoSo.

Consonant + pTHoHo + waw -> aw | ex: talmiDaw
Consonant + rvoSo + yudh + waw -> ??w | ex: ??vn??w
Consonant + HvoSo + yudh + waw -> eew | ex: armeew
Consonant + pTHoHo + yudh -> ay | ex: ??THayt
Consonant + zqoPHo + yudh -> oy | ex: hoy
Consonant + 'SoSo + waw + yudh -> ooy | ex: avuy

AramaicScribe Wrote:4. Consonant Doubling.
In eastern Syriac, the vowels pthaHa and zlama psheeqa borrow the following consonant, and always form closed syllables. Do any of the Maronite vowels act like this, or can all of them stand in an open syllable?

I partially covered it before in regards to gemination.

if you have two consonant, each having a vowel, then you'll cause the doubling on the second consonant assuming the first consonant has one of the following vowells: pTHoHo, or short 'SoSo, or rvoSo.
With the following exceptions:
-You can't double a spirintized letter of "bgdkpt"

And there are other rules, if you want I can try to go further in the grammar book and give you the complete rules.

AramaicScribe Wrote:5. Stress.
Many Assyrians say there are no fixed rules for determining the stressed syllable in multi-syllable words. Some grammars say that the stress should be on the next to the last syllable, except for some two syllable words. What about in the Maronite pronunciation?

Stress the last syllable when it's closed, before last when the last is openned.

AramaicScribe Wrote:6. Cluster Mutations.
In addition to the sound changes in the six ???soft??? or aspirated consonants, some eastern Aramaic grammars give letter clusters which cause pronunciation changes in the leading consonant. For example, here are some of the sound clusters Alan Aldawood gives on his Assyrian Aramaic Language website:

??? zayn + vowel + kof or quwf + vowel makes zayn sound like semkath,
??? semkath + vowel + beyth or gomal + vowel makes semkath sound like zayn,
??? semkath + vowel + pe makes semkath sound like Sode.

Does Maronite Syriac have similar sound changes?

-Olaph auxiliaire (used to simplify pronounciation in some cases):
You add a Olaph + pTHoHo in front of a word that has one or two initial non-vowelled consonant.
(Altough I've never used this rule, I think that I might start to use if I find it is helpfull).

-Yudh + HvoSo or Olaph + yudh + Hvoso -> give the "ee" sound as in "feet".

-if you have a non-vowelled consonant followed by an olaph with a vowell, then that olaph will give its vowel to the consonant, and olaph becomes quiet.
ex: sono -> original: s,zqoPHo,nun,olaph,zqoPHo,olaph -> becomes: s,zqoPHo,nun,zqoPHo,olaph,olaph

-if you have non-vowelled consonant followed by a yudh, then that consonant gets the HvoSo vowel.
Ex: yl??D -> eel??D

-Same thing as above applys if you have a waw.
Ex: Hadwto -> HadooTHo

-If you have an olaph + a vowel, and there's a consonant + a vowel before it, then the olaph becomes a yudh.
Ex: yo?? -> yoy??

-If you have an olaph + a vowel, and a waw without a vowel before it, then the vowel of the olaph goes to the waw. This is only used by the Maronites.
Ex: SHuolo -> SHoowolo

-If you have a h?? which has a 'ayn before it, then the 'ayn is pronounced as ??.
Ex: '??had -> ??had

-if you have an initial h??, then it becomes ??.
Ex: h??nun -> ??nun

-The following consonant d,z,s,S,t assimilate. That's if you have any of these consonsnt next to each other, and the first one is vowelless, then the first consonant is assimilated by the second.
Ex: ??tdKHar -> ??dKHar

-If you have d, t, T followed by a t of the feminine or the pronoun of the second personne, then they're not pronounced.
Ex: 'vad -> 'vat | ',b,d,t <- consonant of that word.

-If you have "z" followed by a "KH" or "TH", then the "z" is pronounced as "s". (Not in common use)
Ex: dazKHaryo -> dasKHaryo

-If you have "s" followed by "d", then the "d" is pronounced as "z". (Not in common use)
Ex: H??sdo -> H??zdo

-If you have "g" or "q" followed by "TH", then "g" and "q" are pronounced as "KH".
Ex: rayugtono -> rayuKHtono

-If you have two non-vowelled consonant next to each other, then the first consonant receives an auxillary rvoSo vowel, or in front of "r,a,h,H,'" a pTHoHo.

AramaicScribe Wrote:7. Alternate Maronite Pronunciation?
In the mid 1990???s I had a chance to talk to a retired Maronite priest, the late Father Joseph Joseph. He told me that there were different ???accents??? among the Maronites, in both Arabic and Syriac, depending on what region of Lebanon the speaker came from. He further said, if I understood correctly, that he pronounced zqopo like the ???a??? in ???raw.??? This pronunciation is also testified to in Robinson???s Paradigms and Exercises in Syriac Grammar where it is specifically stated to be a Maronite pronunciation. John Healey???s First Studies in Syriac also uses this pronunciation. Do you know anything about this pronunciation? If so, how does this affect the pronunciation of pthoHo?

Yes there are different accents in Lebanon. What we speak in Lebanon is Arabised Syriac which has different accents from area to area. Due to Arabization we are getting closer to Arabic with every generation.

The Syriac is constant through out Lebanon, and is classical (the same as found in the Peshitta).

Some people like to pronounce Syriac titles in the way before the zqoPHo became "o", that's they'll pronounce it as zqaPHa.

Hope This Helps!

poosh bashlomo,
keefa-moroon
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Messages In This Thread
Questions for Abudar - by AramaicScribe - 03-27-2004, 06:19 PM
Re: Questions for Abudar - by abudar2000 - 03-28-2004, 12:19 AM
[No subject] - by AramaicScribe - 03-28-2004, 05:39 PM
[No subject] - by abudar2000 - 03-28-2004, 08:26 PM
[No subject] - by AramaicScribe - 03-30-2004, 07:11 PM
[No subject] - by abudar2000 - 04-01-2004, 08:00 PM
[No subject] - by abudar2000 - 04-01-2004, 09:05 PM
[No subject] - by Paul Younan - 04-01-2004, 11:14 PM
[No subject] - by AramaicScribe - 04-02-2004, 07:26 PM
[No subject] - by abudar2000 - 04-05-2004, 02:45 PM
[No subject] - by AramaicScribe - 04-05-2004, 05:49 PM
[No subject] - by abudar2000 - 04-05-2004, 07:27 PM

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