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Hebrews written in Greek?
#1
I've been challenged by a zorban to prove that the book of Hebrews was not originally penned in Greek. Any tips/observations regarding this topic would be much appreciated.
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#2
Rob,

Eusebius states that Hebrews was written in the Hebrew tongue by Paul and translated by Luke or Clement into Greek. "The Hebrew tongue" refers to Paul's mother language as the language of the Hebrews, which was Aramaic, according to Josephus' testimony and the fact that Josephus wrote all his books in Aramaic and had them translated into Greek for the Romans.

See his Antiquities XX,21,18 - (or close to that). It would be difficult to make a case for any NT book being written in Greek , since Josephus makes it pretty clear that the Jews of his time in Israel did not understand Greek. The Gospels were written first to the Jews . Why would they be written in Greek first?
There is no logic to that position, no history and no evidence .

Please see my Aramaic Primacy links for my web pages which show computer analysis showing the Peshitta was translated into The Greek NT and not vice versa.This part is quite technical, but it is based on tons of data and is mathematically measureable and consistent ! It also is confirmed by analysis of The Hebrew OT and LXX model , and we know the LXX is a translation of The Hebrew OT. The data for the NT parallels the results of OT analysis, showing The Peshitta is the original text behind The Greek NT.

Blessings,

Dave B
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#3
Rob Wrote:I've been challenged by a zorban to prove that the book of Hebrews was not originally penned in Greek. Any tips/observations regarding this topic would be much appreciated.

Hi Rob,
hope you are well! I always enjoy your posts here.
One that springs to mind is the use of two different words ofr priest in the aramaic version which morph into one greek word.

Consider this as well.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forums/forumid6/472.html">http://www.peshitta.org/forums/forumid6/472.html</a><!-- m -->

It is often thought that the OT quote appearing in hebrews 10 5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7Then I said, 'Here I am--it is written about me in the scroll--
I have come to do your will, O God.'
comes from the LXX as it does not match the massoretic text.
James trimm who used to post here reckned that verse 7(?) matched the aramaic found in the Zohar more closely than the LXX...for what that is worth.

Here is some other stuff I cut and pasted some time ago from the archives here.
The first two were posted by James trimm and the last quote and comment by john mariucci (I think).
It seems with some of these church father quotes it is hard to really establish just what writings the actually referred to.


Eusebius (315 C.E.)
For as Paul had addressed the Hebrews in the language of his
country; some say that the evangelist Luke, others that
Clement, translated the epistle.
(Eusebius; Eccl. Hist. 3:38:2-3)

Jerome (382)
"He (Paul) being a Hebrew wrote in Hebrew, that is, his own
tongue and most fluently while things which were eloquently
written in Hebrew were more eloquently turned into Greek
(Lives of Illustrious Men, Book 5)


**********************************************************

Eusebius says, (H. E. iv. 22) that:

"Hegesippus, (who lived and wrote about A. D. 188,)
made some quotations from the Gospel according to
the Hebrews, and from the Syriac Gospel"

Now this claims that in the days of Hegesippus, a Syriac
Gospel existed, and that it was a different book from the
Gospel according to the Hebrews.

And in the Passio Sancti Procopii Martyris, (annexed
by Valesius to the Hist. Eccles. of Eusebius, lib. viii. c. 1,
ed. Amsterdam, 1695. Annotatt, p. 154,) the martyr is said
to have been born at Jerusalem, and to have passed his
life at Scythopolis, where he performed three functions in
the church,- " unum in legendi officio, alterum in Syri
interpretatione sermonis, et tertium adversus
daemones manus impositione consummans ;" until his
martyrdom, under Diocletian, A. D. 303
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#4
Off the original topic a bit but...
Quote:according to Josephus' testimony and the fact that Josephus wrote all his books in Aramaic and had them translated into Greek for the Romans.
Yosippon was written in Aramaic before the Antiquities/War and was later translated into Hebrew. I think Antiquities/War was written in Greek.
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#5
Akhi Rob,

Here is an excerpt from Josephus' Preface to Wars of The Jews:

Quote: (1) Whereas the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that ever were heard of; both of those wherein cities have fought against cities, or nations against nations; while some men who were not concerned in the affairs themselves have gotten together vain and contradictory stories by hearsay, and have written them down after a sophistical manner; and while those that were there present have given false accounts of things, and this either out of a humor of flattery to the Romans, or of hatred towards the Jews; and while their writings contain sometimes accusations, and sometimes encomiums, but no where the accurate truth of the facts;I have proposed to myself, for the sake of such as live under the government of the Romans, to translate those books into the Greek tongue, which I formerly composed in the language of our country, and sent to the Upper Barbarians; (2) Joseph, the son of Matthias, by birth a Hebrew, a priest also, and one who at first fought against the Romans myself, and was forced to be present at what was done afterwards, [am the author of this work].
This is plainly an account of his writing about the war with the Romans.He wrote "in the language of our country", and translated it into Greek. Surely this establishes the language of Israel is not Greek, and that these books were not composed in Greek.

Here is an excerpt from the Antiquities:

. And I am so bold as to say, now I have so completely perfected the work I proposed to myself to do, that no other person, whether he were a Jew or foreigner, had he ever so great an inclination to it, could so accurately deliver these accounts to the Greeks as is done in these books. For those of my own nation freely acknowledge that I far exceed them in the learning belonging to Jews; I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks,
Quote:and understand the elements of the Greek language, although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own tongue, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness
; for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations, and so adorn their discourses with the smoothness of their periods; because they look upon this sort of accomplishment as common, not only to all sorts of free-men, but to as many of the servants as please to learn them. But they give him the testimony of being a wise man who is fully acquainted with our laws, and is able to interpret their meaning; on which account, as there have been many who have done their endeavors with great patience to obtain this learning, there have yet hardly been so many as two or three that have succeeded therein, who were immediately well rewarded for their pains.

Again, in Antiquities, Josephus shows, not only here, but throughout these books, that the language of Israel is not Greek.
There were scarcely any who knew it well among the Jews. Josephus could not speak it fluently, and he was among the most educated of his people ,being a priest and a Pharisee.

From Against Apion:Those Antiquities contain the history of five thousand years, and are taken out of our sacred books, but are translated by me into the Greek tongue.


Josephus establishes in "Wars" that he composed the work "in the language of our country" and then translated it into Greek.
"Wars" was written before "Antiquities".
In "Antiquities", he says that Greek was not his native tongue or that of Israel, and that he did not speak Greek well.This was written before "Wars"; why would he write "Wars" in Aramaic (which he plainly declares that he did) and then 20 books of The Antiquities in Greek, in which he declares that Greek is not his native tongue and that he cannot speak it well? Remember also that his books were also written first for his own people and translated later for the Romans.


Blessings,

Dave B
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#6
Rob Wrote:I've been challenged by a zorban to prove that the book of Hebrews was not originally penned in Greek. Any tips/observations regarding this topic would be much appreciated.

Hi Rob...I would be interested in hearing what arguments you came up with here.
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#7
They discarded Eusebius' testimony.
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#8
Rob Wrote:They discarded Eusebius' testimony.

Hi Rob! I may not have been clear enough. What arguments did you use to argue that Hebrews was translated from Aramaic to greek?

I think that Hebrews 4:12 is quite strong , and Hebrews 8:11 (?) as well where I believe the idiom "son of the city" was translated two different ways ion the greek.

Does anyone know how the LXX reads here? Does it agree with the NT greek?
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#9
Quote:What arguments did you use to argue that Hebrews was translated from Aramaic to greek?
There comes a time in arguements like these when all that is used is speculative reasoning. One of my biggest pet peeves is when people using nothing but this in arguements.

So there wasn't much of an arguement.
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