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1 Corinthians 8:6
#16
bbl, gotta fix one of the tires on my truck, it has a slow leak. Gotta get it done before the shop closes.
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#17
Dave Wrote:ok, I don't wanna turn this into a spat here, just looking at sentence structure.

Here's Chris's translation that he posted:

Quote:But to us there is one, God the Father, where all (and we) are from by Lord YHWH Jesus Messiah where all (and we) are from.

Then Dan's:

Quote:But to(for) us there is One ALAHA the FATHER of whom came (into being) all things, and we in Him, and One MARYA Yeshu' Meshikha, by whom are all things, and we by Him.

Then the 2 I posted:

Quote:6 (MUR) yet to us, on our part, there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord, Jesus the Messiah, by whom are all things, and we also by him.
6 (LAMSA) To us there is one God, the Father, from whom comes every thing and by whom we live; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Ok, what I wanna know, is the "and" there between the 2 titles listed in the Peshitta, as listed in 3 of the 4 translations. This is why I'm saying the sentence structure points towards a distinction of 2.

Again, I want this to remain calm here. I'm looking at this carefully.

Yeah I know about that, I acknowledged that I didn't know if it should say by or and etc. I couldn't find and in that sentence. But the word in question can mean "by" so I didn't know, I try to be unbiased see.

But even if it says AND, that has no real difference, and doesn't teach "two persons", because MarYah = Alaha anyway, and the first half shows that there is only one God, who is God the Father, Alaha Abba.
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#18
ok, I understand, there is a word there that can be utilized in several different ways, "and" is just one of them. If I'm right, the greek has a word that can be utilized in several different ways.

Ok, I'm understanding that the word used for "Lord," MarYah, means GOD in the OT. This does beg the question as to why there are several translators utilizing Lord here though?!?

Does this word actually mean Lord in the NT and translating it to GOD would be incorrect for NT usage? What is the reason that translators use Lord here? Anyone care to analyze?
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#19
I shall try my best:

"ok, I understand, there is a word there that can be utilized in several different ways, "and" is just one of them."

Correct, if that.

"If I'm right, the greek has a word that can be utilized in several different ways.
"
Yes, kai, can be rendered "and" or "even". It turns out it's all irrelivant in the Aramaic anyway <!-- sWink --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /><!-- sWink -->

""Ok, I'm understanding that the word used for "Lord," MarYah, means GOD in the OT. This does beg the question as to why there are several translators utilizing Lord here though?!?
""

Many possibilities, such as lack of understanding (Etehridge and Murdock) or bias (Lamsa). You see what Paul puts. The word is best untranslated. Lord is incorrect, because that would just be "Mara", as in "Mar Eshai Shimmun".

"Does this word actually mean Lord in the NT and translating it to GOD would be incorrect for NT usage?"

No. Lord is just "Mara". MarYah is something different altogether. Firstly, nobody else is EVER called MarYah. Secondly, the POT and PNT has many references to God as "MarYah". Thirdly, [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0y[/font] is undisputedly from YHWH as is seen in many names like Jeremiah, Isaiah etc. Many can be "Mar", but only one can be "MarYah". Fourthly (this is opinion, I wonder what Paul thinks), Mar is followed by a name, in this case the name is Yah which is short for YHWH.
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#20
With regards to people like Lamsa, they translate MarYah as LORD many times when they know it refers to God and when it refers to Jesus, they translate it Lord. Not very good work there hey?! No wonder some things are best left untranslated. Like Miltha. So much meaning is lost if you just take one meaning of it.
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#21
Hmmm.

So the proper, or closest to the proper, english translation would be something like this:

"Yet for us, there is one GOD The Father, from whom came all things, and by whom we live, and one LORD GOD, Jesus The Messiah, by whom were all things, and we by him."

I looked at the several ways that this passage was broken down into english by you guys, and tried to utilize the wording that best fit the passage. The "and" is still there, as no other word would fit elsewise.

Excuse me if I did the language no justice, I can only work with english.
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#22
That "translation" is fine. Lord YWHW = Lord God of sorts anyway. Except for the comma in between God and Jesus, I don't see any indication that a comma is there.

e.g. Peshitta says:

Lord YHWH Jesus Messiah like it's one big name <!-- sWink --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /><!-- sWink -->

But it's fine. Note that we have Alaha and MarYah. Both are God and Jesus is Both (Alaha and MarYah). So this speaks not of two persons, but two manifestations of (or if you will, two ways of how we see) the same God.
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#23
One can relate this "two ways of seeing the one God" to the Comforter issue. One verse says that Jesus sends the comforter, another saya that it is the Father. One verse says that the Holy Spirit is the comforter, another says that Jesus is the comforter. So the gist seems that all are manifestations of the one God. But I'm treading dangerously here! Best to avoid this discussion. Anyone who wants to see my "Jesus is the Father" information should go to my website <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.truth777.netfirms.com">http://www.truth777.netfirms.com</a><!-- w --> and it is near the end of my "Jesus is God, trinity is pagan" article.
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#24
I placed the comma there following murdock and Lamsa.

So the title would be : "Lord GOD Jesus The Messiah." Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm very interested to get certain definitions correct. Titles are very important to GOD, and I would like to understand them as best as I could. I never found anyone who was explaining this in english before, so I perked up and asked questions.
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#25
Woopsy, I missed out on the "w" proclitic in front of the "one", this is the "and". Note how the Greek is ambiguous on this! It is "and" after all.

"So the title would be : "Lord GOD Jesus The Messiah." Correct me if I'm wrong.
"

Well, Lord YHWH Jesus the Messiah would be better.

Basically it says One Lord YHWH Jesus the Messiah. Perhaps the comma belongs there then after all? That would make it and one Lord YHWH, Jesus the Messiah. Either way it is so clear that Jesus is the same who is spoken of everywhere else. He is the only true God.
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#26
Well with the YHWH, it becomes subjective from what I know. The correct spelling of the name was lost over time, and not passed down correctly through the generations, at least from what I have read.

So by putting that there, for the english readers, it does not convey a meaning.

Now I agree, for the purists, Lord JEHOVAH, Jesus The Messiah, would be better, but by me adding the additional letters needed to fully convey the meaning also starts a war about the correct spelling and pronounciation.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
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#27
Yeah MarYah and Miltha should be left untranslated, but have footnotes explaining why.
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#28
There is always choices. To not put something there can turn off the reader and shut them out to whatever you are trying to convey, which in turn just stopped your work from having an impact.

No matter what, the writer/translator must never forget his audience and how he/she is to capture their thought with imagery and such, and beyond all is, rightly divide the truth.

Anyways, it does give me some things to think about on correct titles and such, and plenty of time to research some things.
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#29
Thanks again guys for your comments.

I did look up all the places where "MarYah" is used in the Peshitta NT and I seem to have run into some verses where it deals with human leaders and not YHVH. Can someone please either confirm this or show me where I am wrong? I'm thinking this word, though used mostly to refer to YHVH Himself, just might be a term that can refer to a Master/Owner (1Tim. 6:2) or a leader of a congregation. If this is the case, it would explain why Lamsa translated it the way he did, in line with the greek text.

1 Peter 5:3, Colossians 4:1, 1 Timothy 6:2

Also, I noticed where the Peshitta quotes Psalm 110 it doesn't seem to read quite like the hebrew masoretic text does. In the hebrew there is a difference between YHVH and Adoni, but in the Peshitta it seems there isn't. Does anyone have a copy of the Peshitta OT to check this? Or is it worded exactly the same as the NT?

Thanks again for your help.

MGer
Matt. 5:17-19.
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#30
All three examples seem to refer to "master" in the plural. So still, 0yrm is not used to refer to one person unless it is God. The crucial bit is in Colossians 4:1, where we see that the second "Master" is singular, and is "Mara". Why isn't it "MarYah"? Because here we talk of one lord. e.g. the lords on the earth have a lord in Heaven. 0yrm can be plural for lords, but when referring to one person, it is never used but for God. Also, "Mara" is singular. The plural of it = 0yrm.


""Also, I noticed where the Peshitta quotes Psalm 110 it doesn't seem to read quite like the hebrew masoretic text does. In the hebrew there is a difference between YHVH and Adoni, but in the Peshitta it seems there isn't. Does anyone have a copy of the Peshitta OT to check this? Or is it worded exactly the same as the NT?""

Well the Massoretic HOT is not the original Bible, neither is the POT <!-- sBig Grin --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/happy.gif" alt="Big Grin" title="Happy" /><!-- sBig Grin -->
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