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About dialects of the Aramaic language
#1
Shlama,
When I was reading the Acts, I discovered that apostle Paul was traveling in gentile countries and first of all made contacts with Jews. It is possible that he wrote the Epistles to Jews. I do ask all who knows to amswer my questions (better if with facts and/or references).
1) The Jews in these gentile countries, what language and script did they communicate with Paul?
2) In <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/images/aramaic1.jpg">http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/i ... amaic1.jpg</a><!-- m --> there is Lord's prayer in Hebrew letters. The first two words does not correspond to the words of the Lord's prayer of COE Peshitta text. Is it different dialect or is it a Syriac text translated from some Greek fragment?
3) It is much said about dialects of the Aramaic (I mean first century). What they are in? Is it just difference in pronunciations or some spellings are different or what?
4) In <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.aramnaharaim.org/AramaicJesus.htm">http://www.aramnaharaim.org/AramaicJesus.htm</a><!-- m --> it says "At the beginning of the Christian era, Aramaic, in various dialects was the dominant spoken language of Syria and Mesopotamia. It developed a number of literary dialects, known as Palestinian Jewish Aramaic, Samaritan Aramaic, Syro-Palestinian Christian Aramaic, Syriac, Babylonian Talmudic Aramaic, and Mandaic Aramaic. In Galilee[14]and Samaria[15], Aramaic dialects became the day-to-day means of communication." Is there somewhere online explanations what the differences are?

Thank You in advance for the answers. Especially the answer from Paul Younan is expected.
Thank You very much.
Ivan Pavlovich.
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#2
Shlama Akhi Ivan,

Ivan Ostapyuk Wrote:Shlama,
When I was reading the Acts, I discovered that apostle Paul was traveling in gentile countries and first of all made contacts with Jews. It is possible that he wrote the Epistles to Jews. I do ask all who knows to amswer my questions (better if with facts and/or references).

1) The Jews in these gentile countries, what language and script did they communicate with Paul?

I think the "Maran Atha" preserved intact at the end of the Greek translation of 1 Corinthians pretty much sums it up, don't you think? <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

Ivan Ostapyuk Wrote:2) In <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/images/aramaic1.jpg">http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/i ... amaic1.jpg</a><!-- m --> there is Lord's prayer in Hebrew letters. The first two words does not correspond to the words of the Lord's prayer of COE Peshitta text. Is it different dialect or is it a Syriac text translated from some Greek fragment?

It looks like someone's attempt to render the Lord's Prayer into some sort of Hebraic/Aramaic mixture like Qumran Aramaic. <!-- s:dontgetit: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/dontgetit.gif" alt=":dontgetit:" title="Dont Get It" /><!-- s:dontgetit: --> Of course, there is no witness to this dialect in Christian writing, and we have no proof that Meshikha spoke Qumran Aramaic. In fact, we have just the opposite. We have proof from the Greek manuscripts that his dialect is exactly like the Peshitta dialect. We know this because the Aramaic words the Greek did preserve intact are exactly the same dialect as the Peshitta.

Ivan Ostapyuk Wrote:3) It is much said about dialects of the Aramaic (I mean first century). What they are in? Is it just difference in pronunciations or some spellings are different or what?

Yes, a little bit of everything. Much like today, different villages sometimes only a few miles apart have different dialects of Aramaic and different spellings, pronunciations, accents, etc (like the many dialects of Spanish or Arabic today.) Remember that Shimon when he was in Jerusalem, was recognized as a Galilean because of his speech?

There have been hundreds upon hundreds of Aramaic dialects throughout the almost 3,000 years it has been spoken. Even today, I notice different dialects from different villages of Assyrians.

Ivan Ostapyuk Wrote:4) In <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.aramnaharaim.org/AramaicJesus.htm">http://www.aramnaharaim.org/AramaicJesus.htm</a><!-- m --> it says "At the beginning of the Christian era, Aramaic, in various dialects was the dominant spoken language of Syria and Mesopotamia. It developed a number of literary dialects, known as Palestinian Jewish Aramaic, Samaritan Aramaic, Syro-Palestinian Christian Aramaic, Syriac, Babylonian Talmudic Aramaic, and Mandaic Aramaic. In Galilee[14]and Samaria[15], Aramaic dialects became the day-to-day means of communication." Is there somewhere online explanations what the differences are?

There are the online texts themselves at the Comprehensive Aramaic Lexicon site. But I don't think anyone has ever attempted to document every little difference between every dialect of Aramaic that has ever existed. That would take a lifetime. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

Take care Akhi,
Paul
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
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#3
Ivan Ostapyuk Wrote:Shlama,
When I was reading the Acts, I discovered that apostle Paul was traveling in gentile countries and first of all made contacts with Jews. It is possible that he wrote the Epistles to Jews. I do ask all who knows to amswer my questions (better if with facts and/or references).
1) The Jews in these gentile countries, what language and script did they communicate with Paul?
2) In <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/images/aramaic1.jpg">http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/i ... amaic1.jpg</a><!-- m --> there is Lord's prayer in Hebrew letters. The first two words does not correspond to the words of the Lord's prayer of COE Peshitta text. Is it different dialect or is it a Syriac text translated from some Greek fragment?
3) It is much said about dialects of the Aramaic (I mean first century). What they are in? Is it just difference in pronunciations or some spellings are different or what?
4) In <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.aramnaharaim.org/AramaicJesus.htm">http://www.aramnaharaim.org/AramaicJesus.htm</a><!-- m --> it says "At the beginning of the Christian era, Aramaic, in various dialects was the dominant spoken language of Syria and Mesopotamia. It developed a number of literary dialects, known as Palestinian Jewish Aramaic, Samaritan Aramaic, Syro-Palestinian Christian Aramaic, Syriac, Babylonian Talmudic Aramaic, and Mandaic Aramaic. In Galilee[14]and Samaria[15], Aramaic dialects became the day-to-day means of communication." Is there somewhere online explanations what the differences are?

Thank You in advance for the answers. Especially the answer from Paul Younan is expected.
Thank You very much.
Ivan Pavlovich.

1-ish) The evidences for the Aramaic Primacy of Paul's letters are rather striking when compared to the rest of the NT. We find Aramaic wordplay, -poetry-, and scribal mistakes that can only go one way. Some examples:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.aramaicnt.org/index.php?PAGE=Site-Index&DIRECTORY=XML-Index/1st-Corinthians">http://www.aramaicnt.org/index.php?PAGE ... orinthians</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.aramaicnt.org/index.php?PAGE=Site-Index&DIRECTORY=XML-Index/1st-Timothy">http://www.aramaicnt.org/index.php?PAGE ... st-Timothy</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.aramaicnt.org/index.php?PAGE=Site-Index&DIRECTORY=XML-Index/Romans">http://www.aramaicnt.org/index.php?PAGE ... dex/Romans</a><!-- m -->

With these in mind, it seems that he was writing to an Aramaic-speaking audience for (at least) 1st Corinthians, 1st Timothy, and Romans. As to what script, that is still up to debate. It was probably a variant of the script <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/images/aramaic1.jpg">http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/i ... amaic1.jpg</a><!-- m --> is written in, or very VERY early Estrangelo.

2) It's a translation of the text into early Jewish Aramaic, a dialect that was probably around -before- but not during Jesus' life. This is evidence to the "di" particle of the first line, the initial yoodh of the 3rd person future tense, in line 2, etc. It more mimics Old Testament Aramaic rather than 1st Century "vulgar" Judean.

3) Looking over all dialects I know, it's a matter of vowel pronunciation, some vocabulary, and a dash of grammar.

Vowels can be all over the place, and in some Aramaic villages today, you walk 10 miles to the north and you'd think it were a different language, but after 5 minutes of listening carefully, you'd be able to pick out the differences and adapt your dialect to suit your neighbor's ear. Vawols meka i beg defforence en spaech, but relatively little to no difference in written form as Aramaic is usually written without them. Today there are two "main" dialects: "Eastern" and "Western." Eastern voweling can have up to 12 sounds which are closer to the front of the throat (ex. AH as opposed to OH), where Western has 5 which are further back in the throat (ex. OH as opposed to AH). :-)

Vocabulary is the second biggest issue for spoken dialect, but the biggest issue for written Aramaic. For example, Chaldee Aramaic has many Hebrew loan-words, as does Samarian and other Jewish dialects. Syriac, on the other hand, has many Greek influences and Greek loan-words. Aramaic was the English of it's day, as it was, to a degree, a linguistic melting pot, heavily relying on idiom and colloquialisms. :-)

For Grammar, in Chaldee Aramaic, singular masculine plural nouns are marked with an "in" suffix (akin to the Hebrew "im"), where in Syriac Aramaic, singular masculine plural nouns are marked with changing the last vowel to "e." (That's about the ONLY big grammatical difference I can think of between any two dialects). There are also issues of pro- and en-clitics versus seperate forms. The "di" in <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/images/aramaic1.jpg">http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/i ... amaic1.jpg</a><!-- m --> is the seperate form of the modern "d-" proclitic which acts as the genitive particle (among other things :-) ). Additionally, some dialects spell pronouns a bit differently.

Dialects in the 1st Century, outside of the synagogue, need to be reconstructed, for the most part. There are tidbits about what was in use at the time from all over the place, including the Greek of the New Testament. We see such words as "talitha" and "sabachthani," which point to a dialect of Aramaic that was influenced by Syriac (which would be appropriate, as Judea was both interested in, and in conflict with the Greek language, Syriac being the result of such flirtation).

4) I'm actually working on a comparison chart between the dialects you've mentioned. Unfortunately, schoolwork and other projects I'm working on need to come first, but it is going to be an awesome study :-)

Hope this helps!

Shlomo,
-Steve-o
'Just your average Antithetical Italian "Protestant" House-churching Charismatic Evangelical Karaite "Fundamentalist" for Aramaic Primacy... Drat I think I left something out... One sec.. I'll add on more as I think of it.
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#4
Grrr.. Akki Paul, you beat me to the draw as I was typing! <!-- sBig Grin --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/happy.gif" alt="Big Grin" title="Happy" /><!-- sBig Grin -->

'Didn't know that I was being redundant :-)

Shlomo,
-Steve-o
'Just your average Antithetical Italian "Protestant" House-churching Charismatic Evangelical Karaite "Fundamentalist" for Aramaic Primacy... Drat I think I left something out... One sec.. I'll add on more as I think of it.
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#5
Shlama,
Thank You, my brothers for Your replies. It enhanced my knowledge a lot. I am frustrated that <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.cired.org">http://www.cired.org</a><!-- w --> has not included in its links the <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.peshitta.org">http://www.peshitta.org</a><!-- w -->.
I read the references given in the replies and see the big light in this references. Before I was frustrated about the Gospel that it is messed up to some extant by Greek "originals". But now I see that Greek texts help a lot to understand the Aramaic text. The God is wise. Praised be His name.
Ivan Pavlovich.
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#6
Shlama Akhay,

That first link, Ivan, is quite a beautiful work. However, the very first line "Avuneh di bishmaya" is problematic. It appears to mix one pronominal suffix 'un' (meaning "our") with the anticipatory suffix 'eh' (meaning "his"), which to my knowledge is not a grammatically correct Aramaic construction. In other words (forget about the 'un') to say "Aveh di bishmaya" is incorrect, while of course "aveh di shmaya" would be.

Any takes?
Rob
<font face="Estrangelo (V1.1)" size="4">
hnm Lqt4n hl ty0d wh P0 hl tyld Nmw hl Bhytn ryg hl ty0d Nm
(w4y</font>
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#7
Shlama Akhan Rob,

I agree. The work seems to be someone's personal reconstruction of what they thought might have been the way it was originally spoken. I don't think this is from any feasible dialect that actually existed anywhere at any time.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
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#8
Rob Vanhoff Wrote:Shlama Akhay,

That first link, Ivan, is quite a beautiful work. However, the very first line "Avuneh di bishmaya" is problematic. It appears to mix one pronominal suffix 'un' (meaning "our") with the anticipatory suffix 'eh' (meaning "his"), which to my knowledge is not a grammatically correct Aramaic construction. In other words (forget about the 'un') to say "Aveh di bishmaya" is incorrect, while of course "aveh di shmaya" would be.

Any takes?
Rob

I've been looking around for that construction everywhere, but have concluded that it is a mistake. No known dialect uses a Wau-Noon-He suffix. So it does look like the author was trying to combine the definite construct with the 1st person plural personal suffix unsuccessfully :-)

Shlomo,
-Steve-o
'Just your average Antithetical Italian "Protestant" House-churching Charismatic Evangelical Karaite "Fundamentalist" for Aramaic Primacy... Drat I think I left something out... One sec.. I'll add on more as I think of it.
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#9
Shlama,


[Image: aramaic1-l.jpg]


I'm new to the forum and I am a stranger so forgive my English <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->
I would like to know if this text is correct or not, transcribed in this dialect. It seems that the dialect is not the Syriac. Phonetically, we can read the text like this :

ABUNA DI BISHEMAYA

ITQADDASH SHEMAK,

TETE MALKUTAK

TIT'ABED RE'UTAK

KEDI BI SHEMAYA KAN BA AR'A

LAJMANA HAB LANA SEKOM YOM BEYOMA

U SHEBOK LANA JOBEINA

KEDI AF ANAJNA SHEBAKNA LEJEIBINA

WEAL TA'ALNA LENISION,

ELA PESHINA MIN BISHA.


which does not correspond to any known version even if some words are similar. Is this text is gramaticallement correct? And what is this dialect really? ... If anyone can help me even if I know the answer has already been partially provided, but especially for the beginning of the text, and me I would like to know if all the text is correct.

Thank U !
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