Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Discussion on hell
How about some discussion of the word "hell." Lamsa says it means "mental torment." I would like to see other views regarding hell, hades, tartaroo, gehenna, etc.

Thank you very much.

I don't know much about it really, especially from an Aramaic perspective. I have been told that gehenna or gehinnom is a place that has to do with burning and judgement. I come from a baptist christian background, and I was always taught that hell is a burning place where people who don't know "Jesus" are going to burn forever. Now, I am not so sure about that. I do know it is not a place where I want to go, ever.

Also, from the little I've studied on Rabbinic tradition, it seems it may be a place of judgement that some are destroyed in, and some get out of, after their amount of sin has been paid for. I know, that sounds like purgatory sort of, but its not really the same concept I don't think.

Any thoughts from the Church of the East position on this, or from the Aramaic?

Matt. 5:17-19.
My name is Dave.This is my first post in this group as I joined last week.
The NT words for Hell in Aramaic are ,"Sheol" and "Gehenna". Sheol in the Hebrew Bible is depicted as the realm of all the dead and not strictly a place of punishment, though many experience torment in Sheol.

All the Greek concepts attached to mythological "Hades" and "Tartarus" should probably be thrown out the window.The GNT ,"Hades", usually translates the word "Sheol " in The NT as also in The LXX. There is a lot of mythology behind the Greek word Hades and a lot of that mythology has carried over into New Testament Theology by the osmosis of believing The Greek word "Hades" is God's divinely inspired and chosen word to convey eternal truth.
This is a lie.
Jesus is not The son of Zeus either, though one might get that impression from the Greek New testament; (see Acts 14:12 for a Greek impression of The Apostle Paul). Subtly, the Greek language has imported with it much of Greek culture and thought into Christian Theology.
We must separate the wheat from the chaff and return to the Aramaic original for the pure original; more importantly, we must discern the spirit of a doctrine; does it convey the Spirit of our Master's person, heart and mind? Does it set Him forth as he really is and as He really was?
If not, it is a false doctrine.
"Hell", according to Jesus, was not primarily a place but a condition: " You are from beneath"(Jn. 8:23),"You are children of hell"(Mat. 23:15),etc. Certainly He did not mean the Pharisees lived in the center of the earth and came up on some sort of elevator.
James wrote that "the tongue is set on fire by Hell".(James 3:6)- Surely he does not have a literal place in mind, nor a literal fire.

Hope this helps.

Nice post Dave! (and welcome)
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
Good points Dave,

I must ask you what you think Gehenna talked a bit about Sheol, but not much about Gehenna. Also, if we are to get rid of greek influence, which I am in agreement, why do you call Messiah "Jesus" ? Lets call Him by his name in Aramaic or Hebrew.

Another question, do you think Judaism today or even in Talmudic times was influenced by greek thought on this? Do you think we can get some insight on 1st century belief about Sheol and Gehenna by reading Mishnah/Talmud?

Matt. 5:17-19.
The following article points out that the word "ghenna" appears only in the Aramaic targum of Isaiah chapt 66. The full article used to be avaliable for free but it appears now you have to pay for it!

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href=""></a><!-- m -->

As for my own view on ghenna or hell the following article seems to be closest to it.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href=""> ... pp_02.html</a><!-- m -->

Byzantine Greek
Matthew 5:22 egw de legw umin oti pav o orgizomenov tw adelfw autou eikh enocov estai th krisei ov d an eiph tw adelfw autou raka enocov estai tw sunedriw ov d an eiph mwre enocov estai eiv thn geennan tou purov
(V1.[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]10rwnd 0nhgl wh byxm 0ll rm0nd Nmw 0tswnkl wh byxm 0qr yhwx0l rm0nd lkw 0nydl wh byxm 0qy0 yhwx0 le zgrnd Nm lkd Nwkl 0n0 rm0 Nyd 0n0[/font] Matthew 5:22
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Byzantine Greek
Matthew 5:29 ei de o ofyalmov sou o dexiov skandalizei se exele auton kai bale apo sou sumferei gar soi ina apolhtai en twn melwn sou kai mh olon to swma sou blhyh eiv geennan Peshitta
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0nhgb lpn Krgp hlk 0lw Kmdh dx db0nd ryg Kl xqp Knm hydsw hyux Kl 0lskm 0nymyd Knye Nyd N0[/font] Matthew 5:29
Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Byzantine Greek
Matthew 5:30 kai ei h dexia sou ceir skandalizei se ekkoqon authn kai bale apo sou sumferei gar soi ina apolhtai en twn melwn sou kai mh olon to swma sou blhyh eiv geennan
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0nhgb lpn Krgp hlk 0lw Kymdh Nm dx db0nd ryg Kl xqp Knm hyds qwop Kl 0lskm 0nymyd Kdy0 N0w[/font] Matthew 5:30
Matthew 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Byzantine Greek
Matthew 10:28 kai mh fobeisye apo twn apoktenontwn to swma thn de quchn mh dunamenwn apokteinai fobhyhte de mallon ton dunamenon kai [thn] quchn kai [to] swma apolesai en geennh
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0nhgb dbwn 0rgplw 0spnld xksmd Nm Nm ty0ryty Nyd wlxd ljqml Nyxksm 0l Nyd 0spn 0rgp Nyljqd Nyly0 Nm Nwlxdt 0lw [/font]Matthew 10:28
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Byzantine Greek
Matthew 18:9 kai ei o ofyalmov sou skandalizei se exele auton kai bale apo sou kalon soi estin monofyalmon eiv thn zwhn eiselyein h duo ofyalmouv econta blhyhnai eiv thn geennan tou purov
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0rwnd 0nhgb lpt Nynye Nytrt Kl ty0 dk 0lw 0yxl lwet 0nye 0dxbd Kl wh bj Knm hydsw hyux Kl 0lskm Knyed wh N0w [/font]Matthew 18:9
Matthew 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Byzantine Greek
Matthew 23:15 ouai umin grammateiv kai farisaioi upokritai oti periagete thn yalassan kai thn xhran poihsai ena proshluton kai otan genhtai poieite auton uion geennhv diploteron umwn
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Nwkyle 0pe0 0nhgd hrb hl Nwtn0 Nydbe 0whd 0mw 0rwyg dx Nwdbetd 0sbyw 0my Nwtn0 Nykrktmd 0p0b ybon 0syrpw 0rpo Nwkl yw [/font]Matthew 23:15
Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Byzantine Greek
Matthew 23:33 ofeiv gennhmata ecidnwn pwv fughte apo thv krisewv thv geennhv
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0nhgd 0nyd Nm Nwqret 0nkya 0ndk0d 0dly 0twwx [/font]Matthew 23:33
Matthew 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Byzantine Greek
Mark 9:43 kai ean skandalizh se h ceir sou apokoqon authn kalon soi estin kullon eiv thn zwhn eiselyein h tav duo ceirav econta apelyein eiv thn geennan eiv to pur to asbeston
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0nhgl lz0t Nydy0 Nytrt Kl ty0 dk w0 0yxl lwetd 0gysp Kl wh xqp hyqwop Kdy0 Kl 0skm Nyd N0[/font] Mark 9:43
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Byzantine Greek
Mark 9:45 kai ean o pouv sou skandalizh se apokoqon auton kalon estin soi eiselyein eiv thn zwhn cwlon h touv duo podav econta blhyhnai eiv thn geennan eiv to pur to asbeston
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0nhgb lpt Nylgr Nytrt Kl ty0 dk w0 0oygx 0yxl lwetd Kl wh xqp hyqwop Kl 0lskm Klgr N0w [/font]Mark 9:45
Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Byzantine Greek
Mark 9:47 kai ean o ofyalmov sou skandalizh se ekbale auton kalon soi estin monofyalmon eiselyein eiv thn basileian tou yeou h duo ofyalmouv econta blhyhnai eiv thn geennan tou purov
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0rwnd 0nhgb lpt Nynye Nytrt Kl ty0 dk w0 0hl0d htwklml lwet Knye 0dxbd Kl wh xqp hyux Kl 0lskm Knye N0w [/font]Mark 9:47
Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Byzantine Greek
Luke 12:5 upodeixw de umin tina fobhyhte fobhyhte ton meta to apokteinai exousian econta embalein eiv thn geennan nai legw umin touton fobhyhte
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]wlxd 0nh Nmd Nwkl 0n0 rm0 Ny0 0nhgb wymrml jyls ljqd rtb Nmd wh Nm Nwlxdt Nm Nm Nyd Nwkywx0[/font] Luke 12:5
Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Byzantine Greek
James 3:6 kai h glwssa pur o kosmov thv adikiav outwv h glwssa kayistatai en toiv melesin hmwn h spilousa olon to swma kai flogizousa ton trocon thv genesewv kai flogizomenh upo thv geennhv
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0rwnb wh P0 dqyw 0lgyg Ky0 Nyjhrd Ntbrsd 0lbwy dqwmw Nrgp hlkl hl Mtkm Nymdhb yhwty0 dk 0nsl whw wh 0be Ky0 0tyjxd 0mlew wh 0rwn 0nslw [/font]James 3:6
James 3:6 And the tongue [is] a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

Here are 23 evidences of Peshitta primacy- 11 in Aramaic and 12 in Greek !
Geenna-12 (Aramaic transliteration in Greek) [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)] 0nhg [/font];(Gehenna)-11
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0rwnb[/font]- One time in James 3:6 probably mistaken for [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0nhgb[/font] by a Greek translator. One can see how the lettering , if imperfectly written, could be misconstrued here.
The opposite ??? upo thv geennhv being translated [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0rwnb[/font] is far less likely, even laughable.

Isaiah 10

16 Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.
sa dwqy:k dqy dqy w:dbk txt:w Nwzr w:ynmsm:b twabu hwhy Nwda:h xlsy Nk:l 16

17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;
dxa Mwy:b w:ryms:w w:tys hlka:w hreb:w hbhl:l wConfusedwdq:w sa:l larvy-rwa hyh:w 17

18 And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standardbearer fainteth. {both???: Heb. from the soul, and even to the flesh}
oon oom:k hyh:w hlky rvb-de:w spn:m w:lmrk:w w:rey dwbk:w 18

These prophecies seem to be in Jesus??? mind when He spoke of body and soul being destroyed in Gehenna (Mat. 10:28 & Luke 12:5). They speak of national judgment as Judge pointed out in his posted link.
There is another application however. Mat. 5:22 speaks of individual judgment in Gehenna, as do other warnings. Some fear a literal hell fire; I believe there is a more fearsome hell to fear; that is the hell I can become and be consumed with here and now by becoming evil. What is more fearsome a prospect, suffering at the hands of demons or becoming a demon yourself ? Which would be more worthy of the name ???Hell??? ?

Too many fear what might be done to them and not enough what they might do to someone else; where they may end up rather than what they may become.

We are in the eternal state now- that is, we are forever what we are unless a power greater than ourselves changes us from within into something else. Our surroundings are easily changed and not to be feared.

Only God can change us; therefore He ought to be feared in that He will do whatever is necessary to bring us to life eternal - a life filled with faith ,hope and love; a life which is one with His. It is not accomplished in a second.
Birth is instantaneous in The Spirit; so is death.
Life takes a lifetime.None of us is truly saved until we have run the race,finished the course and kept the faith.

The worst hell imaginable to my mind is apostacy from Christ- turning away from the knowledge of God to the darkness again; having tasted the heavenly gift and made partaker of The Spirit and to then turn away and depart from the living God, as Judas Iscariot did. Some will dispute that Judas ever had life in Messiah- I seriously doubt our Lord would have commisioned him to preach , heal and deliver if he had not The life and Spirit in him to do it. And the twelve did do it.(Mark 6:7)

It would be safer not to presume on God's favor. A good man is a man who knows the evil he is capable of and turns to God constantly for His deliverance and righteousness. The man who does not see his potential for evil is not to be trusted. "For I know that in me, that is ,in my flesh dwells no good thing." Romans 7:18

We must grow and develop by obedience and discipleship- following Jesus. He did not come to make converts.He came to make disciples.

All of us are in training now. We are learning to become angels ([font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0k0lm[/font]) of God or of Satan.

As far as using the Name of Jesus, I have no problem with it. I have spoken that Name of My Savior for 30 years and am very emotionally attached to it. I don???t fear Greek influence there since my association with His Name does not come from ???Jesus??? , (which is English) or ???o Ihsouv??? , (which is Greek), but from my experience and relationship with Him. We are not saved or sanctified by pronouncing a name in any language, else dumb people would have no salvation.
If I refuse to acknowledge a particular language which stands behind what most English speaking people know, I cut myself off from them and greatly diminish my influence over them. I believe Aramaic and Hebrew are the languages of scripture, but most of what I have learned has come from the English language and the gospel of my salvation came to me through the English language.The Greek alphabet and vocabulary stand behind the English language. Most people I know speak English only. I need to speak their language if I expect to give them the knowledge of God???s word. I will teach as much appreciation for Aramaic as possible and the beauty of the original.

I wish the churches had kept to the original text, but most held to a Greek translation for twenty centuries, and God used the Greek and Latin and many other translations to change the world by the Word and His Spirit. The Byzantine Greek text is a beautiful translation and very faithful to the original Aramaic. We can correct it where the sense of the original text requires it.

To me , no one can ever improve on the name, ???JESUS???. I know He is not sticklish about how we pronounce His Name if we know Him.

What the Mishnah and Talmud can teach us I do not know. I would ask The Holy Spirit to teach me.

Jesus said , ???If any man shall do His will , he shall know of the doctrine , whether it be of God or whether I speak of myself...??? John 7:17


Dave B.
Nice post Dave, where have you been all these years? <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
As far as I am aware gehenna is the Hellenization of ge hinnom which is the valley of hinnom [does anyone know what hinnom means?].

I am quite keen on allegorical interpretations of scripture, but not if they become far fetched though [for the record I am not saying Lamsa is].

I do think there is literally a judgment though as I reckon everyone has to be accountable for their actions, and I don't think this means that this takes place necessarily now.

Peace out! [that is supposedly an Americanism meaning 'goodbye', often used by adherents to modern youth culture].
This post is sponsored by Thadmania! Inc
All rights reserved
Shlama Akhi Gentile,

"Gehenna" is actually an Aramaic word, transliterated into Greek. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]

Forum Jump:

Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)