Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Mar Aphrahat and Luqa 15:8
#1
Shlama Akhi Yuri,

In Mar Aphrahat's Demonstrations on Faith, we find the following quote from Luqa 15:8:

[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]hl ty0d Ftn0 Yh 0dy0
Jwhnm dx dbwtw Nyzwz 0rs9
Fyb 0mxw 0gr4 0rhnm fw
[/font]

"What woman, who has ten coins and loses one of them, and (Waw Proclitic) not does light a lamp and sweep (Khama) the house..."

Now let's see how the Peshitta and Old Scratch read:

Peshitta:
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]hl ty0d Ftn0 Yh 0dy0
Jwhnm dx dbwtw Nyzwz 0rs9
Fyb 0mxw 0gr4 0rhnm fw
[/font]
"What woman, who has ten coins and loses one of them, and (Waw Proclitic) not does light a lamp and sweep (Khama) the house..." (exactly 100% the same as Mar Aphrahat)

Old Scratch Sinaiticus:
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]hl ty0d Ftn0 Yh 0dy0
Jwhnm dx db0tw Nyzwz 0rs9
Fyb 0mxw 0gr4 0rhnm f
[/font]
"What woman, who has ten coins and loses one of them, not does light a lamp and sweep (Khama) the house..."

Old Scratch Cureton:
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]hl ty0d Ftn0 Yh 0dy0
Jwhnm dx dbwtw Nyzwz 0rs9
Fyb 04nkw 0gr4 0rhnm f
[/font]
"What woman, who has ten coins and loses one of them, not does light a lamp and organizes (kansha) the house..."

As you can see, Akhi, the reading from Mar Aphrahat is 100% the same as the Peshitta. Both Old Scratch readings differ, however, in the following important ways:
  • (1) Old Scratch (s) has the imperfect of the PEAL [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]db0t[/font], whereas Mar Aphrahat uses [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]dbwt[/font] just like the Peshitta
    (2) Both Old Scratch (s) and © are missing the Waw Proclitic, included in Aphrahat and the Peshitta
    (3) Old Scratch © uses a completely different word, [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]04nk [/font]for "sweep~organize", instead of the word employed by both the Peshitta and Mar Aphrahat - [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0mx[/font]

So what do you think here, Akhi - should we believe the "scholarly consensus" about a long-missing Diatesseron.....or what? (it sure as heck ain't Old Scratch Mar Aphrahat is using!) <!-- sBig Grin --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/happy.gif" alt="Big Grin" title="Happy" /><!-- sBig Grin -->
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
Reply
#2
Akhi Yuri,

It's quite lonesome over here all by myself. <!-- sSleepy --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/sleepy.gif" alt="Sleepy" title="Sleepy" /><!-- sSleepy -->

Don't you have anything to say about these examples so far? Should I find about 20 more direct quotes from the Peshitta by Mar Aphrahat?
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
Reply
#3
Akhi Paul,

This is awesome stuff! I for one want to see as many of these examples and you have the patience to put up here. I imagine that this great man must also be known as "Aphraates" by Lamsa, when he talks about an early commentary being made on the Peshitta.

So, if Mar Apharat wrote early to middle fourth century, that would mean his proof texts from the Peshitta would clearly predate both Old Scratch mss.

I may add these into an appendix or extra section in RUACH QADIM or a subsequent work. Perhaps it will go in the hardcover version when published, but I would like to see a lot more of these to make a killer presentation of it.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
Reply
#4
""So, if Mar Apharat wrote early to middle fourth century, that would mean his proof texts from the Peshitta would clearly predate both Old Scratch mss.
""

I never even thought of that! <!-- s:bigups: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/bigups.gif" alt=":bigups:" title="Big Ups" /><!-- s:bigups: -->
Reply
#5
Shlama Akhi Andrew,

No prob - I will get more of these....

The process is painstaking because, most of the time, Mar Aphrahat (a.k.a, "Aphraates", "Parhad", etc.) really is re-wording and re-formulating, and just plain recalling from memory.

My only goal was to show that the probability of his paraphrasing matching up directly with the Peshitta (the text he was paraphrasing) would far outnumber the times where it seemed he might be quoting something else - it's just random. (and sometimes not quoting anything at all, like the earlier example on this forum about Martha being told "If you have faith....")

See what I mean?

The theory is that Mar Aphrahat used the Peshitta, and sometimes he quoted directly from it and sometimes he just paraphrased. That's the goal of these posts......to demonstrate some direct quotes from the Peshitta and at the same time show some quotes that match nothing in existence - therefore proving the theory that he used the Peshitta - and only the Peshitta.....and perhaps some "literary genius."

You see, the reason Akhan Yuri hasn't answered yet (God love him!) is that these examples don't fit into their theory. How could Mar Aphrahat be quoting a version which supposedly didn't exist until a hundred years after he was buried? (quotes, mind you, directly from the Peshitta and directly against the Old Scratch readings.)

According to this latest view, the Old Scratch was the basis for the Diatesseron harmony of Tatian.

Who laid that egg? I have no idea. But I know many people tried real hard to hatch it.

I guess those scholars should paraphrase their "consensus!" <!-- sWink --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /><!-- sWink -->

The gall of these people - to think they can come around and tell millions of people throughout the world who have a 2,000 year-old history that they don't even know the story of their own texts - that they really were waiting around for 21st-century American philosophists to edumacate them and set them straight.

Sheesh!
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
Reply
#6
"The gall of these people "

Yeah the anger of these people amazes me too...

""to edumacate them ""

<!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> Too much Simpsons for you...

""to think they can come around and tell millions of people throughout the world who have a 2,000 year-old history that they don't even know the story of their own texts""

So do you have quotes from the Church etc that the Peshitta is the original? Just the stuff I'm looking for for the historical compendium. Do you have quotes for each book (22/27) of its Aramaic primacy?
Reply
#7
drmlanc Wrote:"The gall of these people "

Yeah the anger of these people amazes me too...

Heheheh <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

drmlanc Wrote:So do you have quotes from the Church etc that the Peshitta is the original? Just the stuff I'm looking for for the historical compendium. Do you have quotes for each book (22/27) of its Aramaic primacy?

Akhi, this was not an issue before. Nobody talked about what language the books were originally written in because they did not even know that centuries later, people would be claiming that a foreign language was it.

This is the universal tradition among all the churches in Asia all the way to India, and Japan before Tamerlane wiped out 99.999999% of the church.

This is why all the churches, bar none, venerate the Peshitta and no other version (not just the Church of the East, but the Maronites, Jacobites, Chaldeans, Indians, etc.)

No other version is allowed in their worship and their liturgical readings. That all these churches hate each other from 431 AD also says alot, because they all use the same version. It must have been well established centuries before these splits for all sides to unanimously adopt them as their official version......otherwise, why would they adopt the version of their hated enemies?

When I talk of the "history" behind the primacy of the Peshitta, I am not referring to words but to the actions of these particular communities.

As the old saying goes....actions speak a lot louder than words....
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)