How do you think Rev 1:4's "from...." originally read?
The Greek reads
"ἀπὸ ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόµενος," literally
"from He is, He was, and He is coming."
One scribal emendation of the Greek reads,
"ἀπὸ Θεοῦ, ὁ ὢν...."
while another scribal emendation reads,
"ἀπὸ τοῦ ὁ ὢν...."
The Aramaic literally reads,
"from He who-was/who-had,
and He who-is/who-has being,
and He who-comes/who-signs."
Rev 1:4 (APNT)
https://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/en/new...ons-search
John, to the seven churches that [are] in Asia:
Grace [be] to you and peace
from him who is and was and comes
and from the seven spirits that are before his throne
Revelation 1:4 (based on Glaser)
John, to the seven assemblies,
them who are in Asia,
t-y-b-u-th-a [blessings] to you a'sh-y-n-a [and peace/harmony] m-n [from]
h-u [He] who-was/who-had
a'h-u [and He] who-is/who-has h-u-a [being]
a'h-u [and He] who-comes/who-signs,
and from seven spirits,
these of before the throne-- His own.
/////////////
_The Revelation of John: Volume I_ by William Barclay (1976), 183pp., 30
https://dannychesnut.com/Bible/Barclay/R...rt%20I.htm
Rev. 1:4-6 ....we must look at it in the Greek.... We translate the first phrase _from him who is_; but that is not what the Greek says. A Greek noun is in the nominative case when it is the subject of a sentence, but, when it is governed by a preposition it changes its case and _its form_. It is so in English. _He_ is the subject of a sentence; _him_ is the object. When John says that the blessing comes _from him who is_ he should have put _him who is_ in the genitive case after the preposition; but quite ungrammatically he leaves it in the nominative. It is as if we said in English _from he who is_, refusing to change _he_ into _him_. ....
John is not finished with his amazing use of language. The second phrase is _from him who was_. Literally, John says _from the he was_. The point is that _who was_ would be in Greek a participle. The odd thing is that the verb _eimi_ (GSN1510) (_to be_) has no past participle. Instead there is used the participle _genomenos_ from the verb _gignomai_, which means not only _to be_ but also _to become_. ....John... uses a Greek phrase that is grammatically impossible and that no one ever used before.
/////////////
"Semitic Influence in the Use of New Testament Greek
Prepositions: The Case of the Book of Revelation" (2017) by Laurențiu Florentin Moț, 44-66, on 52, 54
https://www.alankurschner.com/2017/08/08...evelation/
5.1 Ἀπό Followed by the Nominative
Revelation 1:4 is probably the most common verse to illustrate solecisms in Revelation and it happens to involve a preposition. John sends greetings ἀπὸ ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόµενος, literally “from He is, He was, and He is coming.” The preposition ἀπὸ is followed by a nominative phrase, not by the expected genitive case.
This rendition has the consensus of [snip a Gothic-looking P]^18, א , A, C, P, and 2050
and there is no doubt that it is original. Later scribes tried to save the grammar by two types of corrections: ἀπὸ Θεοῦ, ὁ ὢν (the Majority Text, GOC, RPT, and BYZ) and ἀπὸ τοῦ ὁ ὢν (Textus Receptus, STE, TBT, SCR, and MGK). ....John is aware of the rule and implements it effectively. He never uses the preposition ἀπό with a case other than the required genitive in 35 instances, apart from 1:4a.
"Revelations from the _apparatus criticus_ of the Book of Revelation: How Textual Criticism can help Historians" by J.K. Elliott, 23pp., on 14
https://usqr.utsnyc.edu/wp-content/uploa...lliott.pdf
2.) IMPROVING STRANGE GRAMMAR
Related in several respects to the variants listed under (1) above are those variants where alleged breaches of normal grammar are detected and which may therefore
indicate their primitiveness.
1:4
απο+ nominative
απο ο ων P18_vid_ א.01 A.02 C.04 P.025 must have looked bizarre to a literary-minded scribe. Improvements were either
+ θεου Maj
+ κυριου (according to Tischendorf) 2016
+ του 61mg 385.
re: "θεου":
Revelation 1:4 (World English Bible)
....from God, who is and who was and who is to come....
re: "του":
3588. ho, hé, to
https://biblehub.com/greek/3588.htm
Original Word: ὁ, ἡ, τό
Part of Speech: Definite Article
Transliteration: ho, hé, to
Phonetic Spelling: (ho)
Definition: the
Usage: the, the definite article.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/1-4.htm
kai/ καὶ/ and
eirēnē/ εἰρήνη/ peace
apo/ ἀπὸ/ from
ho/ ὁ
ōn/ ὢν/ being
kai/ καὶ/ and
ho/ ὁ
ēn/ ἦν/ was
kai/ καὶ/ and
ho/ ὁ
erchomenos/ ἐρχόμενος/ is coming
3739. hos, hé, ho
https://biblehub.com/greek/3739.htm
hos, hé, ho: usually rel. who, which, that, also demonstrative this, that
Original Word: ὅς, ἥ, ὅ
Part of Speech: Relative Pronoun
Transliteration: hos, hé, ho
Phonetic Spelling: (hos)
Definition: usually rel. who, which, that, also demonstrative this, that
Usage: who, which, what, that.
==================================================
Do you think Revelation 2:27 originally had:
"shepherd them with a rod of iron"?
"rule them with a rod of iron"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
"The Language of the Apocalypse" (1965) by C.G. Ozanne. PDF: https://legacy.tyndalehouse.com/tynbul/L...alypse.pdf
....Revelation 2:27: ‘And He will shepherd (ποιμανεῖ) them with an iron staff, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces' (cf. 12:5; 19:15). The proper meaning of ποιμαίνω is 'tend, pasture, guide', but clearly this sense is inappropriate in the context of the Apocalypse.
Revelation 2:26-27 (Berean Literal)
And the _one_ overcoming and keeping My works until _the_ end,
I will give to him authority over the nations,
and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron,
as the vessels of the potter are broken in pieces--
just as I also have received from My Father.
Revelation 2:27 (Aramaic to Dutch to English)
- to rule them with a rod of iron,
and like a potter's jars you shall crush them:
for so also have I received from my Father,
will you shatter them - this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta according to Bauscher, which is confirmed by the African Peshitta translation and by the grammatical analysis of the Aramaic verb. Other Peshitta translations read: 'shall they be shattered', but in our opinion that translation is not correct.
for so also have I received it from my Father--several commentators associate these words with Ps. 2:8-9.
Rev 2:26-27 (APNT)
https://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/en/new...ons-search
And he who overcomes and keeps my works,
to him I will give authority over the nations
TO RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON
AND AS VESSELS OF A POTTER, THEY WILL BE BROKEN.
For thus I received from my Father.
Revelation, based on Greg Glaser's interlinear of Crawford, dukhrana.com
2.26 And he conquering and guarding/keeping my work
I give to him authority regarding/over peoples/nations
2.27 to be breaking them in a staff/rod of iron
and like hollow/hard-clay vessels you pound/grind them in this manner
for and/also I have taken/received from my Father.
Revelation 2:27
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/2-27.htm
kai/ καὶ/ and
4165 poimanei/ ποιμανεῖ/ he will shepherd
them with
4464 rhabdō/ ῥάβδῳ/ a rod
of iron as the vessels [of] the potter are broken in pieces
just as I also have received from the
Patros/ Πατρός/ Father
mou/ μου/ of Me
4165. poimainó
https://biblehub.com/greek/4165.htm
poimainó: to act as a shepherd
Original Word: ποιμαίνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: poimainó
Phonetic Spelling: (poy-mah'-ee-no)
Definition: to act as a shepherd
Usage: I shepherd, tend, herd; hence: I rule, govern.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4165 poimaínō – properly, to shepherd, caring for (protecting) the flock.
rˁy vb. to feed, to graze
http://dukhrana.com/lexicon/word.php?adr...ize=125%25
G
1 to feed, to graze ....
the calf, the bull, and the lion shall graze together. .... the ox and the bear will graze together .... a prickly (creeping animal), with thin legs, and it grazes among the brambles. (a) fig. : of disease on a body
.... the rot was already eating away at his body.
2 to tend flocks ....
he was herding his possessions and reached Sodom. .... let the one who has (one) ox tend (the other oxen one) day .... I tend the small cattle and sheep. ....
3 metaph.: to govern, to be in charge
.... from you emerges a shepherd, that one who shall tend my congregation Israel. .... I shall be in charge of them until they complete the allotted time.
4 to be tended Syr.
C
1 to tend ....
Gt
1 to be grazed, tended....
the poor shall be tended by him. .... suckling goats are grazed.
=====================================
Do you think Revelation 21:8 originally had:
"Τοῖς δὲ δειλοῖς" [but to _the_ cowardly]?
"The Language of the Apocalypse" (1965) by C.G. Ozanne. PDF: https://legacy.tyndalehouse.com/tynbul/L...alypse.pdf
An example of the dative where the nominative casus pendens would be expected occurs in Revelation 21:8: ‘But as for the cowardly . . . (τοῖς δὲ δειλοῖς),' This construction, which is otherwise unknown to Greek, corresponds to the Hebrew lāmed (normally ‘to’) when used to introduce a new subject. This usage occurs several times in the books of Chronicles, an example being 1 Chronicles 26:1: 'As for the divisions (le maִhle qôt) of the gatekeepers' (RSV).
1 Chronicles 26:1
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_chronicles/26-1.htm
lə·maḥ·lə·qō·wṯ/ לְמַחְלְק֖וֹת/ Concerning the divisions
lə·šō·‘ă·rîm/ לְשֹׁעֲרִ֑ים/ of the gatekeepers
Revelation 21:8 (Berean Literal)
https://biblehub.com/revelation/21-8.htm
But to _the_ cowardly and unbelieving and having become abominable and murderers and the sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their portion _is_ in the lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Revelation 21:8 (based on Greg Glaser's interlinear of Crawford, dukhrana.com)
D-y-n [and/but-- 'd-y-n' is a 'thought switcher' in Aramaic] l'q-n-u-t-th-n-a [to the fearful/secure] and not trusting and wicked/lawless and polluters/defiled/corrupted and murderers/killers and sorcerers/enchanters and fornicators/whores and idolatrous workers and all of them liars,
their portion in the burning lake of fire/mirror and sulfur/brimstone that of having it death second/dragon.
Revelation 21:8
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/21-8.htm
3588 Tois/ Τοῖς
1161 de/ δὲ
deilois/ δειλοῖς/ to the cowardly
3588. ho, hé, to
https://biblehub.com/greek/3588.htm
ho, hé, to: the
Original Word: ὁ, ἡ, τό
Part of Speech: Definite Article
Transliteration: ho, hé, to
Phonetic Spelling: (ho)
Definition: the
Usage: the, the definite article.
1161. de
https://biblehub.com/greek/1161.htm
de: but, and, now, (a connective or adversative particle)
Original Word: δέ
Part of Speech: Conjunction
Transliteration: de
Phonetic Spelling: (deh)
Definition: but, and, now, (a connective or adversative particle)
Usage: a weak adversative particle, generally placed second in its clause; but, on the other hand, and.
The Greek reads
"ἀπὸ ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόµενος," literally
"from He is, He was, and He is coming."
One scribal emendation of the Greek reads,
"ἀπὸ Θεοῦ, ὁ ὢν...."
while another scribal emendation reads,
"ἀπὸ τοῦ ὁ ὢν...."
The Aramaic literally reads,
"from He who-was/who-had,
and He who-is/who-has being,
and He who-comes/who-signs."
Rev 1:4 (APNT)
https://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/en/new...ons-search
John, to the seven churches that [are] in Asia:
Grace [be] to you and peace
from him who is and was and comes
and from the seven spirits that are before his throne
Revelation 1:4 (based on Glaser)
John, to the seven assemblies,
them who are in Asia,
t-y-b-u-th-a [blessings] to you a'sh-y-n-a [and peace/harmony] m-n [from]
h-u [He] who-was/who-had
a'h-u [and He] who-is/who-has h-u-a [being]
a'h-u [and He] who-comes/who-signs,
and from seven spirits,
these of before the throne-- His own.
/////////////
_The Revelation of John: Volume I_ by William Barclay (1976), 183pp., 30
https://dannychesnut.com/Bible/Barclay/R...rt%20I.htm
Rev. 1:4-6 ....we must look at it in the Greek.... We translate the first phrase _from him who is_; but that is not what the Greek says. A Greek noun is in the nominative case when it is the subject of a sentence, but, when it is governed by a preposition it changes its case and _its form_. It is so in English. _He_ is the subject of a sentence; _him_ is the object. When John says that the blessing comes _from him who is_ he should have put _him who is_ in the genitive case after the preposition; but quite ungrammatically he leaves it in the nominative. It is as if we said in English _from he who is_, refusing to change _he_ into _him_. ....
John is not finished with his amazing use of language. The second phrase is _from him who was_. Literally, John says _from the he was_. The point is that _who was_ would be in Greek a participle. The odd thing is that the verb _eimi_ (GSN1510) (_to be_) has no past participle. Instead there is used the participle _genomenos_ from the verb _gignomai_, which means not only _to be_ but also _to become_. ....John... uses a Greek phrase that is grammatically impossible and that no one ever used before.
/////////////
"Semitic Influence in the Use of New Testament Greek
Prepositions: The Case of the Book of Revelation" (2017) by Laurențiu Florentin Moț, 44-66, on 52, 54
https://www.alankurschner.com/2017/08/08...evelation/
5.1 Ἀπό Followed by the Nominative
Revelation 1:4 is probably the most common verse to illustrate solecisms in Revelation and it happens to involve a preposition. John sends greetings ἀπὸ ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόµενος, literally “from He is, He was, and He is coming.” The preposition ἀπὸ is followed by a nominative phrase, not by the expected genitive case.
This rendition has the consensus of [snip a Gothic-looking P]^18, א , A, C, P, and 2050
and there is no doubt that it is original. Later scribes tried to save the grammar by two types of corrections: ἀπὸ Θεοῦ, ὁ ὢν (the Majority Text, GOC, RPT, and BYZ) and ἀπὸ τοῦ ὁ ὢν (Textus Receptus, STE, TBT, SCR, and MGK). ....John is aware of the rule and implements it effectively. He never uses the preposition ἀπό with a case other than the required genitive in 35 instances, apart from 1:4a.
"Revelations from the _apparatus criticus_ of the Book of Revelation: How Textual Criticism can help Historians" by J.K. Elliott, 23pp., on 14
https://usqr.utsnyc.edu/wp-content/uploa...lliott.pdf
2.) IMPROVING STRANGE GRAMMAR
Related in several respects to the variants listed under (1) above are those variants where alleged breaches of normal grammar are detected and which may therefore
indicate their primitiveness.
1:4
απο+ nominative
απο ο ων P18_vid_ א.01 A.02 C.04 P.025 must have looked bizarre to a literary-minded scribe. Improvements were either
+ θεου Maj
+ κυριου (according to Tischendorf) 2016
+ του 61mg 385.
re: "θεου":
Revelation 1:4 (World English Bible)
....from God, who is and who was and who is to come....
re: "του":
3588. ho, hé, to
https://biblehub.com/greek/3588.htm
Original Word: ὁ, ἡ, τό
Part of Speech: Definite Article
Transliteration: ho, hé, to
Phonetic Spelling: (ho)
Definition: the
Usage: the, the definite article.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/1-4.htm
kai/ καὶ/ and
eirēnē/ εἰρήνη/ peace
apo/ ἀπὸ/ from
ho/ ὁ
ōn/ ὢν/ being
kai/ καὶ/ and
ho/ ὁ
ēn/ ἦν/ was
kai/ καὶ/ and
ho/ ὁ
erchomenos/ ἐρχόμενος/ is coming
3739. hos, hé, ho
https://biblehub.com/greek/3739.htm
hos, hé, ho: usually rel. who, which, that, also demonstrative this, that
Original Word: ὅς, ἥ, ὅ
Part of Speech: Relative Pronoun
Transliteration: hos, hé, ho
Phonetic Spelling: (hos)
Definition: usually rel. who, which, that, also demonstrative this, that
Usage: who, which, what, that.
==================================================
Do you think Revelation 2:27 originally had:
"shepherd them with a rod of iron"?
"rule them with a rod of iron"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
"The Language of the Apocalypse" (1965) by C.G. Ozanne. PDF: https://legacy.tyndalehouse.com/tynbul/L...alypse.pdf
....Revelation 2:27: ‘And He will shepherd (ποιμανεῖ) them with an iron staff, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces' (cf. 12:5; 19:15). The proper meaning of ποιμαίνω is 'tend, pasture, guide', but clearly this sense is inappropriate in the context of the Apocalypse.
Revelation 2:26-27 (Berean Literal)
And the _one_ overcoming and keeping My works until _the_ end,
I will give to him authority over the nations,
and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron,
as the vessels of the potter are broken in pieces--
just as I also have received from My Father.
Revelation 2:27 (Aramaic to Dutch to English)
- to rule them with a rod of iron,
and like a potter's jars you shall crush them:
for so also have I received from my Father,
will you shatter them - this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta according to Bauscher, which is confirmed by the African Peshitta translation and by the grammatical analysis of the Aramaic verb. Other Peshitta translations read: 'shall they be shattered', but in our opinion that translation is not correct.
for so also have I received it from my Father--several commentators associate these words with Ps. 2:8-9.
Rev 2:26-27 (APNT)
https://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/en/new...ons-search
And he who overcomes and keeps my works,
to him I will give authority over the nations
TO RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON
AND AS VESSELS OF A POTTER, THEY WILL BE BROKEN.
For thus I received from my Father.
Revelation, based on Greg Glaser's interlinear of Crawford, dukhrana.com
2.26 And he conquering and guarding/keeping my work
I give to him authority regarding/over peoples/nations
2.27 to be breaking them in a staff/rod of iron
and like hollow/hard-clay vessels you pound/grind them in this manner
for and/also I have taken/received from my Father.
Revelation 2:27
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/2-27.htm
kai/ καὶ/ and
4165 poimanei/ ποιμανεῖ/ he will shepherd
them with
4464 rhabdō/ ῥάβδῳ/ a rod
of iron as the vessels [of] the potter are broken in pieces
just as I also have received from the
Patros/ Πατρός/ Father
mou/ μου/ of Me
4165. poimainó
https://biblehub.com/greek/4165.htm
poimainó: to act as a shepherd
Original Word: ποιμαίνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: poimainó
Phonetic Spelling: (poy-mah'-ee-no)
Definition: to act as a shepherd
Usage: I shepherd, tend, herd; hence: I rule, govern.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4165 poimaínō – properly, to shepherd, caring for (protecting) the flock.
rˁy vb. to feed, to graze
http://dukhrana.com/lexicon/word.php?adr...ize=125%25
G
1 to feed, to graze ....
the calf, the bull, and the lion shall graze together. .... the ox and the bear will graze together .... a prickly (creeping animal), with thin legs, and it grazes among the brambles. (a) fig. : of disease on a body
.... the rot was already eating away at his body.
2 to tend flocks ....
he was herding his possessions and reached Sodom. .... let the one who has (one) ox tend (the other oxen one) day .... I tend the small cattle and sheep. ....
3 metaph.: to govern, to be in charge
.... from you emerges a shepherd, that one who shall tend my congregation Israel. .... I shall be in charge of them until they complete the allotted time.
4 to be tended Syr.
C
1 to tend ....
Gt
1 to be grazed, tended....
the poor shall be tended by him. .... suckling goats are grazed.
=====================================
Do you think Revelation 21:8 originally had:
"Τοῖς δὲ δειλοῖς" [but to _the_ cowardly]?
"The Language of the Apocalypse" (1965) by C.G. Ozanne. PDF: https://legacy.tyndalehouse.com/tynbul/L...alypse.pdf
An example of the dative where the nominative casus pendens would be expected occurs in Revelation 21:8: ‘But as for the cowardly . . . (τοῖς δὲ δειλοῖς),' This construction, which is otherwise unknown to Greek, corresponds to the Hebrew lāmed (normally ‘to’) when used to introduce a new subject. This usage occurs several times in the books of Chronicles, an example being 1 Chronicles 26:1: 'As for the divisions (le maִhle qôt) of the gatekeepers' (RSV).
1 Chronicles 26:1
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_chronicles/26-1.htm
lə·maḥ·lə·qō·wṯ/ לְמַחְלְק֖וֹת/ Concerning the divisions
lə·šō·‘ă·rîm/ לְשֹׁעֲרִ֑ים/ of the gatekeepers
Revelation 21:8 (Berean Literal)
https://biblehub.com/revelation/21-8.htm
But to _the_ cowardly and unbelieving and having become abominable and murderers and the sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their portion _is_ in the lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Revelation 21:8 (based on Greg Glaser's interlinear of Crawford, dukhrana.com)
D-y-n [and/but-- 'd-y-n' is a 'thought switcher' in Aramaic] l'q-n-u-t-th-n-a [to the fearful/secure] and not trusting and wicked/lawless and polluters/defiled/corrupted and murderers/killers and sorcerers/enchanters and fornicators/whores and idolatrous workers and all of them liars,
their portion in the burning lake of fire/mirror and sulfur/brimstone that of having it death second/dragon.
Revelation 21:8
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/21-8.htm
3588 Tois/ Τοῖς
1161 de/ δὲ
deilois/ δειλοῖς/ to the cowardly
3588. ho, hé, to
https://biblehub.com/greek/3588.htm
ho, hé, to: the
Original Word: ὁ, ἡ, τό
Part of Speech: Definite Article
Transliteration: ho, hé, to
Phonetic Spelling: (ho)
Definition: the
Usage: the, the definite article.
1161. de
https://biblehub.com/greek/1161.htm
de: but, and, now, (a connective or adversative particle)
Original Word: δέ
Part of Speech: Conjunction
Transliteration: de
Phonetic Spelling: (deh)
Definition: but, and, now, (a connective or adversative particle)
Usage: a weak adversative particle, generally placed second in its clause; but, on the other hand, and.