"WHY would they write to Gentiles/pagans in a backwater language?"
What language do you consider "a backwater language"?
Do you agree with me that Paul's native language was Aramaic?
Do you consider Cornelius prior to his speaking with Peter a 'pagan'?
Aramaic speakers were located in numerous cities. Paul's letters were written in Paul's native tongue-- Aramaic-- and translated into Greek, and circulated in Aramaic and Greek.
"Textual criticism is not really debatable if someone doesn't have a background in the languages"
My response to Ehrman is below. How would you respond to him?
_Jesus, Interrupted: Revealing the Hidden Contradictions in the Bible (And Why We Don't Know About Them)_ by Bart D. Ehrman (2009), 292pp. On 36, 37
https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Interrupted...061173940/
Joseph is not Jesus' father. But that creates an obvious problem. If Jesus is not a blood-relation to Joseph, why is it that Matthew and Luke trace Jesus' bloodline precisely through Joseph? This is a question that neither author answers: both accounts give a genealogy that can't be the genealogy of Jesus, since his only bloodline goes through Mary, yet neither author provides her genealogy. .... Luke explicitly indicates that the family line is that of Joseph, not Mary (Luke 1:23; also Matthew 1:16). ....
There are other problems. In ... Matthew's genealogy .... from the Babylonian disaster to the birth of Jesus, fourteen generations (1:17). Fourteen, fourteen, and fourteen-it is almost as if God had planned it this way. .... The problem is that the fourteen-fourteen-fourteen schema doesn't actually work. If you read through the names carefully, you'll see that in the third set of fourteen there are in fact only thirteen generations.
////////////////////////////
Matthew 1:17 says there are 14, 14, 14 generations.
Greek manuscripts of Matthew's genealogy mistakenly list 14, 14, 13 generations.
In Aramaic mss. of Matthew's genealogy, with Mt 1:16's "gbra" correctly translated as father/guardian, Matthew's genealogy lists 14, 14, 14 generations.
Mary had a father/guardian named Joseph (plus a husband also called Joseph).
Jesus is a descendant of King David on his biological mother Mary's side (per Mt's genealogy), and on his step-dad Joseph's side (per Lk's genealogy).
=============================================.
"Do you read it in the original Aramaic?"
I've not yet learned to read Aramaic. I often consult an interlinear of the Aramaic.
"enjoy your Peshitta"
I do. Does it bother you at all that Greek mss. suggest that those in danger of Gehenna fire include Jesus and Paul?
Matthew 5:22 (Weymouth NT)
https://biblehub .com/matthew/5-22.htm
https://biblehub .com/interlinear/matthew/5-22.htm
But I say to you that every one who becomes angry with his brother shall be answerable to the magistrate;
that whoever says to his brother 'Raca,' [Ῥακά/ Raca: transliteration of an Aramaic word meaning "spit"] shall be answerable to the Sanhedrin;
and that whoever says, 'You fool!' [Greek: 3474 [e] Mōre/ Μωρέ/ Fool] shall be liable to the Gehenna of Fire.
Matthew 23:17 (YLT)
https://biblehub .com/matthew/23-17.htm
https://biblehub .com/interlinear/matthew/23-17.htm
Fools [Greek: 3474 [e] μωροὶ/ mōroi] and blind! for which is greater, the gold, or the sanctuary that is sanctifying the gold?
1 Corinthians 4:9-10 (YLT)
https://biblehub .com/ylt/1_corinthians/4.htm
https://biblehub .com/interlinear/1_corinthians/4-10.htm
for I think that God did set forth us the apostles last-- as appointed to death, because a spectacle we became to the world, and messengers, and men; we [are] fools [Greek: 3474 [e] μωροὶ/ mōroi] because of Christ, and ye wise in Christ; we [are] ailing, and ye strong; ye glorious, and we dishonoured;
=======================================================.
"you believe that someone in the first century translated 7th-century Syriac into first-century Greek"
I don't believe that.
"Genesis 1:1 says 'gods' created the heaven and the earth. That's monstrous Hebrew, using a plural for a singular entity. Right?"
I know little about Hebrew. Is that bad Hebrew grammar?
"Perhaps it was written in a cave, by an uneducated fisherman in a world with little opportunity to read and write, but still written in Greek?"
The Greek Revelation displays good Greek grammar in places, and displays a large and precise Greek vocabulary. Do you think it was written by someone who was uneducated?
"even if I agreed about the 'monstrous' writing, these aren't the kinds of errors a poor translator would make"
The translator of the original Aramaic Revelation into Greek was competent, but he on occasion dispensed with proper Greek grammar in certain locations in pursuit of a rendition that would retain specific information present in the original Aramaic. The book's 'change this, and you're cursed' warning weighed heavily on his mind.
"claims that the Greek in Revelation being 'monstrous.'"
The Greek grammar of the Greek Revelation most definitely is monstrous.
"even if you had a valid case that the Greek in Revelation were poor"
The Greek of the Greek Revelation is 'translation Greek' translated from Aramaic.
What's your explanation for the Greek Revelation's "astonishing 'offenses against grammar'"?
Charles C. Torrey, _The Apocalypse of John: Introduction, Excerpts, and a New Translation_ (1958), was at the now-defunct https://www.preteristarchive .com/1958_torrey_the-apocalypse-of-john/
For the Apocalyptist the language of the New Dispensation of the Christian Church was Aramaic only. It is most significant that the numerous hymns and doxologies sung or recited by the saints and angels in heaven, in chapter after chapter of the book, are composed in Aramaic (wherever it is possible to decide), not in Hebrew; though the writer could have used either language. ....
The language of the "Revelation of John" has offered one of the most perplexing problems of biblical study. Its author is, on the one hand, a master of Greek and a man of learning: on the other hand, one who writes in an idiom which is not Greek but Semitic, and whose work swarms with major offenses against Greek grammar.
As for the mastery of Greek, it seems at the outset to be shown by the vocabulary of the book. See the details given in Swete's Apocalypse of St John, pp. cxv ff. It is a large vocabulary containing many unusual words, all handled with certainty: employing a great variety of verbs and verbal compounds, all so used as to give the precise shade of meaning desired in each case. As modern commentators agree, the author of the book was a master of Hebrew and made his own translations for that language in his multitudinous allusions to the Old Testament. These translations, without exception, are the work of a scholar who evidently was at least as thoroughly at home in Greek as in Hebrew. They are as accurate, concise, and skillfully fashioned, word on word, as those of any translator. ....
To all appearance, thus far, the Greek of Revelation is the work of a linguist of skill and erudition; why, then, the astonishing "offenses against grammar"? This peculiarity has been a source of great interest and perplexity since the earliest times. ....
For the truth is that the Book of Revelation was written in a Semitic language, and the Greek translation which alone has been preserved is a remarkably close rendering of the original.
Reason for extraordinary faithfulness on the part of a translator is given in 22:18f.:
I testify to every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city.
Here is the warning to any interpreter. The last degree of exactness in reproducing both words and idioms is plainly prescribed, and this is what we see attempted in our curious Greek. In fact, underlying all of the amazing solecisms is seen the wording of the Semitic original. The grammatical monstrosities, recognized in their true nature, testify to the execution of a definite purpose carried through with remarkable consistency. When they are examined, they are found to show grammatical appreciation rather than the lack of it. But it is Aramaic grammar!
(Nevertheless, the ideal of a thoroughly accurate translation was incapable of realization, as we know to our sorrow. No Greek translator of an unpointed Semitic text of the extent of this apocalypse could possibly come through without his considerable sheath of mistranslations. We have no knowledge of any such faultless―or even nearly faultless―achievement.*)
What the Greek translator of Revelation does, in the effort to be exactly faithful, is merely an exaggeration of what is regularly and constantly done in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The translators rendered as they did because of the conception of their task. They were handing down works of high importance, and would assume no unnecessary responsibility. What they―each and all―aimed at was to produce a text which could be understood by the Greek reader and at the same should mirror faithfully every word and phrase of the sacred original. This, the original, was the all-important thing, and the fact was always kept in view. The style of the translation was of no consequence; it was not Greek, nor ever intended to be.
*See Our Translated Gospels [by Torrey], chapter 1; The Four Gospels [by Torrey], pages 265-74.
=====================================================.
"idioms come from culture, not language"
They're expressed using language.
"The quality Greek in Revelation is irrelevant... to whether the Greek is original or a translation"
Is the quality of Burkitt's English here irrelevant to whether the English is original or a translation?:
Torrey, _The Apocalypse of John: Introduction, Excerpts, and a New Translation_ (Yale University Press, 1958).
Professor F. C. Burkitt added to his edition of the Old Syriac Gospels (Evangelion da-Mepharesche; Cambridge University Press, 1904) an English version. Text and translation are printed on opposite pages so that facing each Syriac verse is its English rendering, the latter being as literal as possible. The purpose of this was to enable the student who is ignorant of Syriac to know just what it says in each verse. I will give here examples of this translation-English in sufficient number to form a true picture of the method and to include a sufficient variety of the foreign idioms.
Matt. 5:13. If salt lose its savor and become foolish, wherewith shall it be salted?
6:27. Which of you can add unto his stature one cubit, that about clothing you are anxious? (This, to be sure, is mistranslation of the Syriac, though verbally exact.)
8:14. He saw his mother-in-law lying down and a fever holding her.
8:23. He went up into a boat and his disciples were coming after him.
11:26. Yea, my Father, that so was the will before thee.
15:22. A certain woman … was crying out and saith, Have compassion on me.
16:23. Jesus rebuked him, even Simon.
17:19. They drew near and say to him between themselves and him.
19:9. He that leaveth his wife without a word of adultery.
19:12. He that is capable in power to endure, let him endure.
19:19. Be loving to thy neighbor as thyself.
22:19. And they themselves brought near to him a denar.
23:14. Ye eat up the houses of widows in the pretext that ye are lengthening your prayers.
Mark 14:68. I am not acquainted with what thou sayest.
16:8. To no one aught said they, because they had been afraid.
Luke 9:51. He prepared his countenance to go to Jerusalem. Verse 53, “His countenance for Jerusalem was set to go.
13:13. And straightway her stature was stretched out.
15:3. He saith to them himself this similitude.
15:13. He scattered his property on foods which are not fitting.
20:23. And he himself perceived their ill-will.
John 5:35. Ye wished to make your boast for the hour in his light.
7:24. Do not be judging by faces and faces.
8:38. I, that which I have seen by my Father, I do.
9:11. Go, wash they face with a baptism of Shiloah.
10:24. Till when art thou taking up our breath?
14:13. If ye are loving to me, keep my commandments.
Now Professor Burkitt was not a half-trained writer of English, nor was he indifferent to the requirements of grammar and style. He “thought in Syriac,” indeed, in the sense that he reproduced faithfully and skillfully the idioms of the original. The expert scholar can see the Syriac, word by word and phrase by phrase, underlying his version. The verbal form was the important thing: exactly as illustrated in the LXX, the Gospels, and the Apocalypse, translations of scripture believed to have been divinely inspired. The more barbarous the idiom and the more improbable the reading, the easier (of course) to discern exactly the original text that was rendered.
"Revelation isn't written in 'monstrous' Greek, but in a spoken style"
So the Greek in Greek Revelation 17:4 is typical for spoken Greek?
Torrey, _The Apocalypse of John: Introduction, Excerpts, and a New Translation_ (Yale University Press, 1958).
17:4 (SBL Greek) [NRSV: The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her fornication].
This passage is a remarkable specimen of the method of the too-cautious translator. It illustrates the recognition of an untranslated dī (as shown above in numerous examples), and also, in two other particulars, loyalty to the Aramaic at the expense of the Greek. “The woman was clothed in purple . . . holding in her hand a golden cup (potērion chrysoun [ποτήριον χρυσοῦν]) filled (gemon! [γέμον]) with abominations and the unclean things (bdelygmatōn kai ta akatharta! [βδελυγμάτων καὶ τὰ ἀκάθαρτα]),” etc. A wild bit of Greek, but produced with full knowledge and a definite plan. The editions have gemon [γέμον], but this is correction. The Greek participle translates Aramaic dī mᵉlɔʾ, and “cup” (kɔs) is masculine; gémōn therefore is the only reading that can accomplish the translator’s purpose (see above). The sense of the passage is not harmed.
"What about the Greek in Revelation reflects language constraints and range of Syriac?"
I don't understand the question.
"I've shown you how the Syriac looks like a translation from Greek"
I don't recall that being shown. What did you say?
=============================.
When do you think Revelation 1st existed in Aramaic?
Do you agree with Etheridge that ".... All these authors wrote in Syriac ; and the references they make to the Revelation strongly indicate the existence, so far back as the earliest of them, of a version of the book in that language"?
John Wesley Etheridge, _The Apostolical Acts and Epistles, from the Peschito, or Ancient Syriac: To which are Added, the Remaining Epistles, and the Book of Revelation, after a later Syrian text: Translated, with Prolegomena and Indices_ (1849)
https://archive.org/details/apostolicala...7/mode/2up
Thus the Apocalypse is cited by Jacob of Edessa, though in a version different from the Syrian one now extant and with the origin or fate of which I am not acquainted; and by Ephrem, in the fourth century ; a hundred years earlier, by Hippolytus, a Bishop of Aden, who formally maintained its authority against the objections of Caius ; and earlier still, in the second century, Theophilus of Antioch, in his controversy with Hermogenes, appealed to it as an inspired book. All these authors wrote in Syriac ; and the references they make to the Revelation strongly indicate the existence, so far back as the earliest of them, of a version of the book in that language. In like manner St. Ephrem quotes the Second of Peter, and the Third of John, and the whole of the Epistle of Jude. We admit that it cannot be demonstrated that there was a Syriac version of these books then extant ; but as the fact of such quotations in the works of Syrian writers must be considered a presumption in the affirmative, so the manner in which they are cited leaves no doubt as to the supreme estimate of their authority entertained by the writers themselves.
Eusebius (c. A.D. 260-339), book 4, chapter 24, Theophilus Bishop of Antioch
https://onlineancientwitness.wordpress.c...ry-book-4/
1. Of Theophilus, whom we have mentioned as bishop of the church of Antioch, three elementary works addressed to Autolycus are extant; also another writing entitled _Against the Heresy of Hermogenes_, in which he makes use of testimonies from the Apocalypse of John, and finally certain other catechetical books.
=============.
It was known long ago that the Greek Revelation contains "not accurate Greek, but... uses barbarous idioms, and, in some places, solecisms"-- see Eusebius, quoting Dionysius of Alexandria in paragraph 26:
Eusebius (c. A.D. 260-339), book 7, chapter 25, The Apocalypse of John
https://onlineancientwitness.wordpress.c...k-7/#e7.25
1. Afterward he speaks in this manner of the Apocalypse of John. ....
16. But I think that he was some other one of those in Asia; as they say that there are two monuments in Ephesus, each bearing the name of John.
17. And from the ideas, and from the words and their arrangement, it may be reasonably conjectured that this one is different from that one. ....
22. But the Apocalypse is different from these writings and foreign to them; not touching, nor in the least bordering upon them; almost, so to speak, without even a syllable in common with them.
23. Nay more, the Epistle- for I pass by the Gospel- does not mention nor does it contain any intimation of the Apocalypse, nor does the Apocalypse of the Epistle. But Paul, in his epistles, gives some indication of his revelations, though he has not written them out by themselves.
24. Moreover, it can also be shown that the diction of the Gospel and Epistle differs from that of the Apocalypse.
25. For they were written not only without error as regards the Greek language, but also with elegance in their expression, in their reasonings, and in their entire structure. They are far indeed from betraying any barbarism or solecism, or any vulgarism whatever. For the writer had, as it seems, both the requisites of discourse-that is, the gift of knowledge and the gift of expression-as the Lord had bestowed them both upon him.
26. I do not deny that the other writer saw a revelation and received knowledge and prophecy. I perceive, however, that his dialect and language are not accurate Greek, but that he uses barbarous idioms, and, in some places, solecisms.
27. It is unnecessary to point these out here, for I would not have any one think that I have said these things in a spirit of ridicule, for I have said what I have only with the purpose of showing clearly the difference between the writings.
===============================================.
"you think Revelation was translated into 1st-century Greek from 7th-century Syriac, in the first century"
I don't think that. But perhaps there's a desire to have a strawman to beat up.
"from 7th-century Syriac"
Revelation in Aramaic existed long before the 7th century:
John Wesley Etheridge, _The Apostolical Acts and Epistles, from the Peschito, or Ancient Syriac: To which are Added, the Remaining Epistles, and the Book of Revelation, after a later Syrian text: Translated, with Prolegomena and Indices_ (1849)
https://archive.org/details/apostolicala...7/mode/2up
Thus the Apocalypse is cited by Jacob of Edessa, though in a version different from the Syrian one now extant and with the origin or fate of which I am not acquainted; and by Ephrem, in the fourth century ; a hundred years earlier, by Hippolytus, a Bishop of Aden, who formally maintained its authority against the objections of Caius ; and earlier still, in the second century, Theophilus of Antioch, in his controversy with Hermogenes, appealed to it as an inspired book. All these authors wrote in Syriac ; and the references they make to the Revelation strongly indicate the existence, so far back as the earliest of them, of a version of the book in that language.
"it was written in a time without rigorous standards of writing"
Greek is a very exact language.
"alleged idioms and solecisms are not evidence that something is a product of a translation.... Revelation is... written using conversational Greek"
Do you agree with Charles Torrey and Stephen Broyles and Dionysius of Alexandria that the Greek Revelation contains solecisms?
Solecisms in the book of Revelation - 2017
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/...n.8005493/
The Scribes and the Book of Revelation: How Do You Copy a Book Full of Bad Grammar? - by Stephen Broyles
http://andreascenter.org/Articles/Scribe...on%202.htm
2. Barbarisms and Solecisms ....
These two examples show that the author spoke Greek as a second language. They are actually perfect Hebrew, except for the Greek words. So whoever the author was, it is pretty clear that he was Jewish. ....
Here is the point. A solecism is a violation of these rules of agreement, and the author of Revelation violates them abundantly. ....
4. How Do You Copy a Book Full of Bad Grammar?
There are plenty more barbarisms, but let us move on and have a look at a few solecisms.
Eusebius (c. A.D. 260-339), book 7, chapter 25, The Apocalypse of John
https://onlineancientwitness.wordpress.c...k-7/#e7.25
1. Afterward he speaks in this manner of the Apocalypse of John. ....
26. I [Dionysius of Alexandria] do not deny that the other writer saw a revelation and received knowledge and prophecy. I perceive, however, that his dialect and language are not accurate Greek, but that he uses barbarous idioms, and, in some places, solecisms.
=================================.
"from 7th-century Syriac"
When do you think the Aramaic seen in the Crawford Revelation was originally composed?
John Gwynn, _The Apocalypse of St. John in a Syriac version hitherto unknown, ed. from a MS. in the Library of the Earl of Crawford and Balcarres, with critical notes on the Syriac text, and an annotated reconstruction of the underlying Greek text_ (1897), xviii-xix
https://archive.org/details/apocalypseofstjo00gwynuoft
https://archive.org/stream/apocalypseofs...t_djvu.txt
The Greek of the Apocalypse, above all other New Testament writings, has a Semitic cast, and therefore is capable of idiomatic, while exact, reproduction in a Semitic tongue, such as no effort of a translator could attain in rendering the Epistles in question, or any other part of the New Testament. Compared with the Peshitto proper, it will be found to rival it in vernacular propriety, while giving a closer rendering of the Greek : compared with the Apocalypse of the printed texts, its superiority in purity of idiom, maintained without sacrifice of fidelity to its original, will be apparent.
That the present version deserves the twofold praise I claim for it-- of faithfulness at once to the Greek original and to the Syriac idiom-- will, I believe, be agreed by all competent critics who examine its text as printed at the close of the second Part of the present volume. It is so exact, that in comparing it with the original, no difficulty will be found in determining what reading of the Greek the translator had before him, except in cases where the deficiencies of the Syriac language-- its want of case-endings, its poverty of verbal forms, or the like-- make the discrimination between two or more rival readings impossible : while at the same time it is so idiomatic, that no instance will be met with in which he has sacrificed vernacular propriety for the sake of precise literalness of rendering. His scrupulous fidelity to the substance of the Greek has nowhere betrayed him into the adoption or imitation of Greek constructions, by which the Syriac of the other version of the Apocalypse (in common with the Harkleian) is systematically debased. With him, every word, as well as every phrase, is, with rare exceptions, represented by a purely Syriac equivalent ; and the expedient of naturalizing Greek words, adapted or transliterated, is resorted to only in the two extreme cases-- of words which have absolutely no Syriac equivalent, such as ... (xxi. 20)-- and of words which, by the usage of good writers, have been admitted into the Syriac vocabulary, such as ..., ..., ... (xi. 19, xiv. 20, vi. 11) ; to which are, perhaps, to be added some words of doubtfully Greek origin, such as ..., ... (viii. 11, xi. 9) and some names of precious stones in xxi. 19, 20, and elsewhere. But this practice is with him less frequent than even in the Peshitto New Testament. It is to be added, that he steadfastly avoids the fault of most Syriac translators-- the only one justly chargeable as habitual against the Peshitto, of a tendency to amplification and paraphrase.
The result is, that it would be difficult for a reader unacquainted with the Greek of the Apocalypse to discover that he had here before him a translation, and not an original document. This is so partly, no doubt, in consequence of the character, already noticed, of the Greek, which being of Semitic rather than Hellenic cast, passes naturally, and without reluctance, into Syriac. But any scholar who compares this with the other Syriac version of the Apocalypse, marked as the latter is by a perpetual graecizing of diction and construction, will soon satisfy himself that the purity and idiomatic propriety which, in this version, are combined with close fidelity of rendering, are largely due to the happy method and skill of the translator, and not by any means altogether to the character of the Book with which he had to deal.
=======================================================.
"the earliest known version of Revelation into the Syriac language was translated in the 7th century"
What's the age of the earliest known version of Revelation in Greek?
"the unsupported claim of having had access is pathetically weak argument for an earlier Syriac translation. Why don't you quote Theophilus of Antioch revealing he had access to a full Syriac text of Revelation. How do you know he didn't translate a few verses himself for personal use?"
I don't.
"no one in the Bible spoke the Syriac language"
Not even Jesus, who spoke "Talitha cum," "Ephphatha," "Abba," "Raca," "Amen," and "Eli Eli lema sabachthani"?
What Verses in the New Testament Are Aramaic? - Aug 2, 2019
https://bustedhalo.com/ministry-resource...re-aramaic
Talitha cum meaning “Little girl, get up!” (Mark 5:41)
Ephphatha meaning “Be opened.” (Mark 7:34)
Abba meaning “Father” (Mark 14:36)
Raca meaning “fool” (Matthew 5:22)
Rabbouni meaning “teacher” (John 20:16)
Eli Eli lema sabachthani meaning “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46)
Hosanna meaning “O Lord, save us.” (Mark 11:9)
Maranatha meaning “Lord, come!” (1 Corinthians 16:22)
I agree that the Harklean version of Revelation is a translation from Greek. The Crawford mss. of Revelation is in Aramaic; do you think it was translated from Greek? If 'yes,' what leads you to think that?
=============================================.
Do you think Revelation 1:4 originally had:
"God"?
"Him"? (the Crawford ms. contains "Him")
Revelation 1:4 (HCSB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...rsion=HCSB
John: To the seven churches in Asia. Grace and peace to you from[a] the One who is, who was, and who is coming; from the seven spirits before His throne;
a: Other mss add God
Aramaic to Dutch to (via Google translate) English, dukhrana.com
Revelation 1:4 - John, to the seven churches in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is, and which was, and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before his throne,
Him - this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta and the Greek TR and NA28. The reading of the Greek MHT is "God."
=========================================.
Do you think Revelation 1:5 originally had:
"has washed us"?
"has set us free"? (the Crawford ms. contains "loosed")
"To Him who has loved us"?
"To Him who loves us"? (the Crawford ms. contains "who loves us")
Revelation 1:5 (HCSB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...rsion=HCSB
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and has set us free[a] from our sins by His blood,
a: Other mss read has washed us
interlinear of Crawford Rev 1:5
http://dukhrana.com/peshitta/analyze_ver...ize=125%25
CAL on the Aramaic word in question
http://dukhrana.com/lexicon/word.php?adr...ize=125%25
Aramaic to Dutch to (via Google translate) English, dukhrana.com
Revelation 1:5 - and from Jesus Christ, the Faithful Witness, the Firstborn of the dead, the Prince of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and has redeemed us from our sins through His blood,
loves - this rendering conforms to the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta and of the Greek MHT and NA28, but the reading of the Greek TR and various other manuscripts reads: "has loved".
==================================.
Do you think Revelation 1:6 originally had:
"made us to be a kingdom [and] priests"?
"made us a priestly kingdom"? (the Crawford ms. contains the latter)
"to the ages, amen"?
"to the ages of the ages, amen"?
"to the age (of) ages, continuing"? (the Crawford ms. contains the latter. 'Amen' is an Aramaic word that here means 'continuing.' The Greek NT contains numerous transliterations of the Aramaic 'amen.')
Revelation 1:6
https://biblehub.com/revelation/1-6.htm
(NIV) and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father--to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
(Berean Literal) and He has made us a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the dominion to the ages of the ages. Amen.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) And he has made us The Priestly Kingdom to God and his Father; to him be glory and Empire to the eternity of eternities. Amen.
Aramaic to Dutch to (via Google translate) English, dukhrana.com
Revelation 1:6 -- He (it is) who has made us a priestly kingdom before GOD and His Father -, to Him (is) the glory and the dominion for all eternity. Amen!
to a priestly kingdom for his GOD and Father - this is the reading of the Aramean Peshitta. The Greek MHT and TR reads, "for a kingdom, for priests to GOD his Father." In the reading of the Greek NA28 the words follow: "for his GOD and Father".
until all eternity - this is the translation of the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta which literally says: 'to the eternity of the eternities' or 'to the century of the ages', the 'era' that transcends all eras, so by us translated as: 'forever and ever'. The phrase is characteristic of the book of Revelation and appears 13 times in this book of the Bible. There are many Greek manuscripts that read only "(until) forever". In the Peshitta we find in Op. 14:6 we still find the expression "the everlasting Good News."
Greek texts, interlinear of Revelation 1:6
https://biblehub.com/texts/revelation/1-6.htm
https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/1-6.htm
=========================================.
Do you think Rev 1:8, 1:11, 21:6, and 22:13 originally:
a) had "Alpha... Ὦ"?
had "Aleph... Tav"? (the Crawford ms. contains "Tav" in Rev 1:8, 21:6, and 22:13)
b) had "the Beginning and the End"?
lacked "the Beginning and the End"? (the Crawford ms. lacks that)
c) had "Kyrios/ Κύριος/ Lord"?
had "MrYa"? (the Crawford ms. contains MrYa, which is short for "Master YHWH")
d) lacked "God"?
had "God"? (the Crawford ms. contains 'God')
Revelation 1:8
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/1-8.htm
Egō/ Ἐγώ/ I
eimi/ εἰμι/ am
to/ τὸ/ the
Alpha/ Ἄλφα
kai/ καὶ/ and
to/ τὸ/ the
Ō/ Ὦ
....
legei/ λέγει/ says
Kyrios/ Κύριος/ Lord
ho/ ὁ/ the
Theos/ Θεός/ God
Ὦ (Ō) — 4 Occurrences
https://biblehub.com/greek/o__5598.htm
Revelation 1:8
Revelation 1:11
Revelation 21:6
Revelation 22:13
Aramaic to Dutch to (via Google translate) English, dukhrana.com
Revelation 1: 8 - I am the Aleph and the Tav, (the beginning and the ending), saith the LORD GOD, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
the Alef and the Tav - these are the first and the last letter of the Aramaic alphabet. In the Greek text we read: the Alpha and the Omega ", where the Alpha is written in full, while the Omega is in the text as a single, loose Greek letter. In itself that is a somewhat strange combination. In the Aramaic Peshitta we read: "aléf" af téu ", which is translated: "the aleph, also the tav", i.e. the Aramaic letters that come at the beginning and end of the Aramaic (‹ and Hebrew ›) alphabet. Both letters are written in full. ....
the Beginning and the End - only in the Greek TR we find these words, but they are a suitable clarification of the for many readers strange Aramaic letters 'Alef' and 'Tav' and the equally strange Greek letters 'Alpha' and 'Omega' .
the LORD - in capital letters because in the Aramaic Peshitta here the Aramaic name stands for YaHWeH, namely "Mar-Jah". This name occurs 239 times in the Aramaic Peshitta in the NT of which 14 times in the book of Revelation, the last time in Op. 22:20 where the Name is very special combined with the name of Jesus, so "the LORD Jesus". The Name does not appear in the following NT-isch books of the Peshitta: Galatians, 1 Thessalonians, Titus, Philemon and 1st and 2nd letters of John.
GOD - only in the reading of the reading of the Greek TR the name "GOD" is missing.
==========================================.
Do you think Rev 1:9 originally:
a) had "kingdom"?
lacked "kingdom"? (the Crawford ms. lacks "kingdom")
b) had "testimony of Jesus"?
had "testimony of Jesus Christ"? (the Crawford ms. has "testimony of Jesus Christ")
Revelation 1:9
http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-9.htm
(NIV) I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) I Yohannan am your brother and companion in suffering and in the patience which is in Yeshua. I was in the island that is called Patmos, because of the word of God and because of the testimony of Yeshua The Messiah.
Aramaic to Dutch to (via Google translate) English, dukhrana.com
Revelation 1:9 - I John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and in the endurance in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos, for the Word of GOD and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
in the persistence of Jesus - this is the reading of the Aramean Peshitta. The reading of the Greek NA28, MHT and TR reads: "In the Kingdom and in the endurance of Jesus." The word "Kingdom" is therefore missing from the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta. ....
the testimony of Jesus Christ - this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta and the Greek MHT and TR. The reading of the Greek NA28 is: "Jesus."
==========================.
Do you think Rev 1:10 originally had:
"on the Lord's Day"?
"on the first day of the week"? (the Crawford ms. has "on the first day of the week")
What do you think the Greek mss.'s "on the Lord's Day" refers to?
Revelation 1:10
https://biblehub.com/revelation/1-10.htm
(NIV) On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) And I was in The Spirit on the first day of the week, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,
Revelation 1:10 - I was in the Spirit on the first day of the week and I heard behind me a loud voice like a [ram's horn],
on the first day of the week - this is the unique reading of the Aramean Peshitta. The reading of the Greek NA28, MHT and TR reads: "in the day of the Lord", but with that translation it should be noted that the Greek expression || "εν τη κυριακη ημερα" || literally means "in the day that belongs to the Lord." This can be understood in different ways, namely as:
- (‹1›) "the Sunday", the day on which Christ rose. This is traditionally the day on which the congregation met, but then probably on the Saturday evening, which among the Jews was regarded as the beginning of the new week and as the beginning of the first day of the week (‹see Acts 20: 7 where that is clearly legible›). Incidentally, it was not customary to refer to the first day of the week as the day of the Lord, even though the same word comes 'Lordly', ie 'belonging to the Lord' (‹in the inflection 'kuriakon'›), but in connection with the Lord's Supper (‹ie 'the meal which belongs to the Lord'›) in 1 Cor. 11:20. Since we do not find this expression for "the first day of the week" elsewhere in the Greek NT, we must be careful about hasty conclusions. If the Greek were a translation of the Aramaic, the translator may have tried to add something extra in his translation about the importance of the day.
- (‹2›) Sunday as the day of the emperor, "domingo", because the Greek word "kuriakè" was often used in the sense of "imperial". The designation would then refer to an important day in the imperial cult, but it seems very inappropriate to pay attention to a worldly emperor and his day in the book about the King of kings.
- (‹3›) "the day of the Lord", referred to in the OT as: "the day of the Lord" or: "day of the Lord". It is rightly objected to this that in the NT we encounter this expression in a different Greek form in 1 Th. 5: 2, 2 Th. 2: 2 and 2 Pt. 3:10, i.e. with Paul and Peter. This is indeed suggestive, but perhaps this is related to the Greek of Revelation which would deviate from the Greek of the Gospel and would be "clumsy" here and there. Others, however, believe that the clumsy Greek is due to the fact that the Aramaic version of Revelation preceded the Greek and that Aramaic version clearly says "the first day of the week". The Greek wording would then be a "somewhat sought after" translation of Aramaic. Against the translation "day of the LORD" (‹the day of YaHWeH›) it is also argued that we do not find the Aramaic variant of the name YaHWeH here in the Peshitta.
ram's horn - in Aramaic it has the word "shifura" which resembles the Hebrew "shofar".
Revelation 1:10, Pulpit Commentary
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/revelation/1-10.htm
Verse 10 .... On the Lord's day. The expression occurs here only in the New Testament, and beyond all reasonable doubt it means "on Sunday." This is, therefore, the earliest use of the phrase in this sense. That it means Easter Day or Pentecost is baseless conjecture. The phrase had not yet become common in A.D. [__], as is shown from St. Paul writing, "on the first of the week" (1 Corinthians 16:2), the usual expression in the Gospels and Acts (Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1; John 20:19; Acts 20:7; comp. Mark 16:9).
================================================
"if the Greek were a translation, it wouldn't have changed from the 'first day of the week.'"
Lots of things get changed in formulating a translation. It's inevitable.
Moreover, the Greek transmission/recopying practices were rather sloppy at times, thereby introducing additional changes.
"the Peshitta which came centuries later... also says 'Lord's day.' .... it says 'Yaumo moronoio', Lord's day"
In the Harklean, sure, but the Crawford has for Rev 1:10
0mwyb in the day
0b4bdxd of one in seven
- PDF at
http://dukhrana.com/crawford/
I agree that the Harklean version of Revelation is a translation from Greek. The Crawford ms. of Revelation is in Aramaic; do you think it was translated from Greek? If 'yes,' what leads you to think that?
==========================================
Do you think Revelation 1:11 originally had:
"I am the Alpha and the O [i.e. Omega], the First and the Last"? (the Crawford ms. lacks that)
"who are in Asia"? (the Crawford ms. lacks that)
Revelation 1:11
https://biblehub.com/revelation/1-11.htm
(NIV) which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."
(NKJV) saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) Which said, "Those things which you have seen, write in a book and send to the seven assemblies: to Ephesaus, to Zmurna, to Pergamaus, to Thawatyra, to Sardis, to Philadelphia and to Laidiqia.
Aramaic to Dutch to (via Google translate) English, dukhrana.com
Revelation 1:11 - said, "What you see, write it in a letter and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Tyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."
who said - in the Greek TR we read hereafter: 'I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last', but we do not find these words in the reading of the Greek NA28 and MHT, nor in the reading of the Aramean Peshitta.
the seven congregations - in the reading of the Greek TR we read below: "who are in Asia", but we do not find those words in the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta and of the Greek NA28 and MHT. Nevertheless, these seven congregations were located in what was then Asia Minor (<the present-day Turkey>), north of Ephesus, along a road that ran in a kind of circle past all the seven congregations (<see the map of the 7 congregations>) .
====================================.
Do you think Revelation 1:12 originally had:
"to see the voice that"?
"to know the voice that"? (which the Crawford ms. has)
Revelation 1:12
(NIV) I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) And I turned to know that voice which spoke with me, and when I turned around, I saw seven menorahs of gold;
Revelation 1:12 - I turned to know whose voice was speaking to me. And (when) I turned around, I saw seven golden candlesticks.
to know who the voice belonged to - literally it says in the reading of the Aramean Peshitta 'to know the voice that ...' The reading of the Greek NA28, MHT and TR reads: 'to see the voice that ...'.
===========================================.
Do you think Revelation 1:13 originally had:
"a robe reaching down to his feet"?
"an ephod"? (which the Crawford ms. has)
Revelation 1:13
(NIV) and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet
and with a golden sash around his chest.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) And in the midst of the menorahs as the likeness of a man, and he wore an ephod
and he was girded around his chest with a golden wrap.
Revelation 1:13 - In the midst of the candlesticks was a man like a Son of Man, clothed with a priestly tunic and on his chest (He) wore a golden girdle.
chest - literally: "breasts".
a priest's tunic - this is reading of the Aramaic Peshitta: "efoda". This word, according to Bauscher, can stand for "the ephod" i.e. the tunic of the high priest in the OT. The word "ephoda" occurs in the Peshitta only in Hos. 3: 4 and in this verse in Revelation. Thus it is immediately clear in the Peshitta that we are dealing here with the High Priest. In the Peshitta the words "to the feet" are missing, for the ephod did not reach that far. The Greek refers to the priestly dress, which in itself is an argument in favor of the idea that the Greek text originated from the Aramaic. Bauscher points to the parable of the Aramaic words for "ephod" and "fine linen" in Ex. 25: 7; 28: 4.31; 29: 5; 35: 9 and onwards also in Ezek. 9: 2, 3, 11 and Zech. 3: 4 of the Peshitta of the OT. This might have led to confusion when translating from Aramaic. ....
What is striking is that the Aramaic word "pawdara" that we find in the Harklese version of the Aramaic New Testament has a strong sound resemblance to the Greek word || ποδηρη || (<Podiri>) for the long priestly robe in the LXX and in the text of this verse in the Greek NT.
============================.
Do you think Revelation 1:14 originally had:
"white like wool, as white as snow"?
"white as wool and like snow"? (which the Crawford ms. has)
Revelation 1:14
(NIV) The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow,
and his eyes were like blazing fire.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) And his head and his hair were white as wool and like snow,
and his eyes were like flames of fire.
===================================.
Do you think Revelation 1:17 originally had:
"saying to me"?
merely "saying"? (which the Crawford ms. has)
Revelation 1:17
(Berean Literal) And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as though dead.
And He placed His right hand upon me, saying,
"Fear not. I am the First and the Last,
(King James) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead.
And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me,
Fear not; I am the first and the last:
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet like a dead man,
and he laid his right hand upon me saying,
"Do not be afraid, for I am The First and The Last;
Revelation 1:17 - When I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead and He put His right hand on me and said, "Do not be afraid, for I am the First and the Last,
and said - this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta and of the Greek NA28. The reading of the Greek MHT and TR reads: "and said to me".
==================================.
Do you think Revelation 1:18 originally had:
"amen"? (which the Crawford ms. has, where it's best rendered as 'continuing/perpetual')
"keys"?
"key"? (which the Crawford ms. has)
Hades?
Sheol? (which the Crawford ms. has)
Revelation 1:18
(NIV) I am the Living One; I was dead,
and now look, I am alive for ever and ever!
And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
(King James) I am he that liveth, and was dead;
and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen;
and have the keys of hell and of death.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) I am he who lived and died,
and behold, I am alive to the eternity of eternities, amen,
and I have the key of Death and of Sheol.
Revelation 1:18 - the Living One, and I have been dead. Behold, I live forever and ever, and have the key of death and of Hades.
key - this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta. The reading of the Greek NA28, MHT, and TR reads: "keys" (plural).
realm of the dead - in Greek "hades".
eternity - in a number of Greek manuscripts and in the Greek TR we find the word "Amen" hereafter, but that word does not appear in the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta and of the Greek NA28 and MHT. [correction: "amen" _is_ in the Crawford ms.-- see
http://dukhrana.com/crawford/
===================================.
Do you think Revelation 1:20 originally had:
"seven golden lampstands... seven lampstands"?
"seven lampstands... seven golden lampstands"? (which the Crawford ms. has)
Revelation 1:20
(NIV) The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand and the seven menorahs: the seven stars are the Messengers of the seven assemblies, and the seven menorahs of gold which you saw are the seven assemblies.
Aramaic to Dutch to (via Google translate) English, dukhrana.com
Revelation 1:20 - The mystery of the seven stars, which you saw in my right hand, and (of) the seven lampstands (is this): the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches and the seven golden lampstands that you are the seven churches."
the seven golden candlesticks you have seen - this is the reading of the Aramean Peshitta. In the reading of the Greek NA28, MHT and TR, the word "golden" is missing here. However, the word is found in Greek for the first word "candlesticks" in this verse, while it does not appear there in the Peshitta.
===========================================.
"your latest argument that the 1st-century Greek manuscripts of Revelation are a translation of 7th-century Syriac"
That's not my argument. But perhaps there's a desire to have a strawman to beat up.
"variation itself is not evidence of translation"
What _would_ constitute "evidence of translation"?
"There's no reason a translation would introduce a totally new word"
Translations typically make use of totally new words. Sometimes, translations introduce meanings not present in the original material.
"leaving out a word is an actual mistake from copying"
Always?
"my Syriac text does say golden"
Do you think Revelation 1:20 originally had:
"seven golden lampstands... seven lampstands"?
"seven lampstands... seven golden lampstands"? (which the Crawford ms. has)
Revelation 1:20
(NIV)
The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English, working with the Crawford ms.)
The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand and the seven menorahs: the seven stars are the Messengers of the seven assemblies, and the seven menorahs of gold which you saw are the seven assemblies.
=======================================================.
Do you think Revelation 2:1 originally had:
"his right hand"?
"his hand"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
Revelation 2:1
(NIV) "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) And to The Messenger of the assembly of Ephesaus write: 'Thus says he who holds the seven stars in his hand, he who walks among the menorahs of gold:'”
Revelation 2:1 - Write to the Angel of the Church of Ephesus! This is what he says, who holds the seven stars in his hand, who walks among the golden candlesticks:
his hand - this is the reading of the Aramean Peshitta. The Greek NA28, MHT and TR read: "his right hand."
======================.
Do you think Revelation 2:2 originally had:
"saying themselves to be apostles"?
"say they are apostles"?
"claim to be apostles"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
Revelation 2:2
(Young's Literal) I have known thy works, and thy labour, and thy endurance, and that thou art not able to bear evil ones, and that thou hast tried those saying themselves to be apostles and are not, and hast found them liars,
(King James) I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
(NIV) I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) “I know your works, your toil and your patience, and that you cannot tolerate The Evil One, and you have tested those who claim to be Apostles, and they are not, and you have found them false.”
Revelation 2:2 - “I know your works and your effort and your patience and that you cannot bear the evil ones and that you have tested those who claim to be apostles, (but) they are not and that you find out have that they are liars.
who claim - this is the reading of the Aramean Peshitta. The reading of the Greek NA28 and MHT is "who say of themselves", while the reading of the Greek TR is "who say".
==========================
Do you think Revelation 2:5 originally had:
"the first works"?
"the earlier/former works"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
"I will come soon/quickly"?
"I will come"?
"I will come against you"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
Revelation 2:5
(NIV) Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
(King James) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) “Remember from where you have come out and do the former works; but if not, I will come against you and I will remove your menorah, unless you repent.
Revelation 2:5 - Remember where you came from and repent and do the former works. If not, I will turn against you and take your candlestick from its place unless you repent.
the earlier works - this is the reading of the Aramean Peshitta. The reading of the Greek NA28, MHT and TR reads: "the first works".
then I will turn against you - more literally, "then I will come against you." This is the reading of the Aramean Peshitta. The reading of the Greek MHT and TR reads: "I will come soon." The reading of the Greek NA28 is similar, except that the word "soon" is missing.
==========================
Do you think Revelation 2:7 originally had:
"in the middle of paradise"?
"in paradise"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
"my God"
"God"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
Revelation 2:7
(NIV) Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
(King James) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
(Douay-Rheims) He, that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches: To him, that overcometh, I will give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of my God.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) He who has an ear to hear, let him hear what The Spirit is speaking to the assemblies, and I shall give to the victor to eat of the tree of life, which is in The Paradise of God.
Revelation 2:7 - He who has ears to hear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will feed from the Tree of Life, which is in the paradise of GOD." in paradise - this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta and of the Greek NA28 and MHT. The Greek TR and some other Greek manuscripts read "in the middle of paradise."
GOD - this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta and of the Greek NA28 and TR. The reading of the Greek MHT is: "my GOD"
==========================
Do you think Revelation 2:9 originally had:
"your works and tribulation and poverty"?
"your tribulation and poverty"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
"say they are Jews"?
"call themselves Yudia Yudia" i.e. 'authentic Judeans'? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
Revelation 2:9
(NIV) I know your afflictions and your poverty--yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
(King James) I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) “I know your suffering and your poverty (but you are rich) and the blasphemy of those who call themselves Jews of the Judeans, when they are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.”
Revelation 2:9 - “I know of your tribulation and your poverty, - (even though) you are rich -, and of the blasphemy against those who say they are real Jews when they are not, but a synagogue of Satan.
your tribulation - in the Greek MHT and TR it still says: "your works", but we do not find that text in the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta and the Greek NA28.
true Jews - literally, "Jews of the Jews" or, "Jews of the Judaeans," translated by Mariano Franco in his Spanish edition of the Peshitta as "authentic Jews." The doubling of a word is indeed a way to reinforce a meaning, think of "king of kings" etc.
================================
Do you think Revelation 2:13 originally had:
"I know your works, and where you dwell"?
"I know where you dwell"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
"in the days when Antipas was my faithful martyr"?
"in the days when in the cause of all of you, my faithful witness who was killed among you"?
"in the days when you and my faithful witness contended for the sake of all my faithful witnesses"? (the Crawford ms. contains the last one)
"where Satan has his throne.... where Satan lives"?
simply "the place of Satan's throne"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
Revelation 2:13
(NIV) I know where you live--
where Satan has his throne.
Yet you remain true to my name.
You did not renounce your faith in me,
not even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness,
who was put to death in your city--
where Satan lives.
(King James) I know thy works, and where thou dwellest,
even where Satan's seat is:
and thou holdest fast my name,
and hast not denied my faith,
even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr,
who was slain among you,
where Satan dwelleth.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) "'I know where you dwell:
the place of Satan's throne,
and you keep my name
and have not denied my faith,
and in the days when you and my faithful witness contended for the sake of all my faithful witnesses,
he was murdered among you.'”
Revelation 2:13 - “I know where you live, where the throne of Satan is, and you hold fast to my name and have not denied faith in me, (for) in the days when you and my faithful witness (together) fought for all my faithful witnesses, he was killed among you.
I know - in the reading of the Greek TR and the MHT hereafter follows "your works and", but these words are missing in the reading of the Greek NA28 and the Aramaic Peshitta.
explanation - our translation of this verse follows the Aramaic text of the Peshitta. The Greek text reads as follows: "Not even in the days when Antipas was my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells." This text leads to the following remarks and questions: Why are the words at the end of the verse: 'where Satan dwells', while in the beginning of the verse it is said 'where the throne of Satan is'. That's double....
frequent differences in Greek source texts....
The Greek "anti pas" with a space between the two words means "for the sake of all" or "for the cause of all". In some cases the Greek "anti" means "against", but the first meaning is "in the place of" or "for the sake of" or "for the cause of". The little Greek word || πας || means "all" or "everyone". Now if we revise the translation from the Greek on the basis of this knowledge, we read, "In the days when in the cause of all of you, my faithful witness who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.'' This sentence it does not run well, but the meaning comes closer to the text of the Aramaic Peshitta, apart from the closing sentence that may have been added; the name Antipas suddenly pops up here and is not found anywhere else in the NT or in the known church history of the congregation of Pergamum.
==========================.
Do you think Revelation 2:15 originally had:
"the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate"?
simply "the doctrine of the Nicolaitans"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
Revelation 2:15
(NIV) Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans.
(King James) So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) “So you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Naqolaytans, likewise.
Revelation 2:15 - Likewise you have those who hold to the doctrine of the Nicolaitans.
Nicolaitanes - in the reading of the Greek TR we read below: "that I hate," that is, the doctrine. These words are missing from the reading of the Greek NA28, MHT and the Aramaic Peshitta.
====================================
Do you think Revelation 2:17 originally had:
"I will give to eat of the hidden manna"?
"I will give of the hidden manna"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
Revelation 2:17
(NIV) Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious,
I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.
(King James) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh
will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) “And he who has an ear, let him hear what The Spirit speaks to the assemblies: 'To the one who is victorious
I shall give of the manna which is hidden, and I shall give him a white pebble, and upon the pebble, a name in writing that no man knows except he who receives.'”
Revelation 2:17 - He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him that overcometh
will I give of the hidden "manna," and will give him a white pebble, and on the pebble shall be written a new name, which no man knoweth but he that receiveth it."
to him I will give ... - this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta and of the Greek NA28 and MHT. The reading of the Greek TR reads, "Him will I feed of the hidden manna."
==============================
Do you think Revelation 2:20 originally had:
"I have this against you"?
"I have a few things against you"?
"I have much against you"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
"that woman"?
"your wife"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
Revelation 2:20
(NIV) Nevertheless, I have this against you:
You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.
(King James) Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee,
because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) “I have much against you,
because you are tolerating your wife Jezebel who says about herself that she is a Prophetess, and teaches and seduces my Servants to commit fornication and to eat the sacrifices of idols.”
Revelation 2:20 - But I have a lot against you:
that you let your wife Jezebel go about her business, who says of herself that she is a prophetess and teaches and tempts my servants to commit fornication and to eat idol offerings.
I have a lot against you - this is the reading of the Aramean Peshitta. The reading of the Greek NA28 and MHT is: "I have against you." From the Greek TR the reading is: "I have some things against you."
your wife - this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta and of the Greek MHT. The reading of the Greek NA28 and TR is "the woman".
==============================
Do you think Revelation 2:22 originally had:
"I will cast her into a bed"?
"I cast her upon a bier"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
"her deeds"?
"their deeds"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
Revelation 2:22
(Literal Standard Version) behold, I will cast her into a bed,
and those committing adultery with her into great tribulation-- if they may not convert from her works,
(King James) Behold, I will cast her into a bed,
and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Revelation 2:22 - Behold, I cast her upon a bier,
and those who commit adultery with her I bring into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.
on a bier - this is the bed on which a dead person lies. The Aramaic word can certainly also mean "bed" or "sickbed", but in Lk. 7:14 the same word is used in Aramaic Peshitta for the bier on which the dead young man from Nain lies. In the reading of the Greek NA28, MHT and TR it says "bed", sometimes interpreted as "sick bed". But the question is whether it might be more correct to see a bier in this, because we read in the next verse of her children that they are being put to death. Would God judge the children more severely than their mother, who is apparently the cause of evil?
their deeds - this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta and of the Greek TR, but the reading of the Greek NA28 and MHT reads: "her deeds". Despite this, many translations opt for "their deeds".
What language do you consider "a backwater language"?
Do you agree with me that Paul's native language was Aramaic?
Do you consider Cornelius prior to his speaking with Peter a 'pagan'?
Aramaic speakers were located in numerous cities. Paul's letters were written in Paul's native tongue-- Aramaic-- and translated into Greek, and circulated in Aramaic and Greek.
"Textual criticism is not really debatable if someone doesn't have a background in the languages"
My response to Ehrman is below. How would you respond to him?
_Jesus, Interrupted: Revealing the Hidden Contradictions in the Bible (And Why We Don't Know About Them)_ by Bart D. Ehrman (2009), 292pp. On 36, 37
https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Interrupted...061173940/
Joseph is not Jesus' father. But that creates an obvious problem. If Jesus is not a blood-relation to Joseph, why is it that Matthew and Luke trace Jesus' bloodline precisely through Joseph? This is a question that neither author answers: both accounts give a genealogy that can't be the genealogy of Jesus, since his only bloodline goes through Mary, yet neither author provides her genealogy. .... Luke explicitly indicates that the family line is that of Joseph, not Mary (Luke 1:23; also Matthew 1:16). ....
There are other problems. In ... Matthew's genealogy .... from the Babylonian disaster to the birth of Jesus, fourteen generations (1:17). Fourteen, fourteen, and fourteen-it is almost as if God had planned it this way. .... The problem is that the fourteen-fourteen-fourteen schema doesn't actually work. If you read through the names carefully, you'll see that in the third set of fourteen there are in fact only thirteen generations.
////////////////////////////
Matthew 1:17 says there are 14, 14, 14 generations.
Greek manuscripts of Matthew's genealogy mistakenly list 14, 14, 13 generations.
In Aramaic mss. of Matthew's genealogy, with Mt 1:16's "gbra" correctly translated as father/guardian, Matthew's genealogy lists 14, 14, 14 generations.
Mary had a father/guardian named Joseph (plus a husband also called Joseph).
Jesus is a descendant of King David on his biological mother Mary's side (per Mt's genealogy), and on his step-dad Joseph's side (per Lk's genealogy).
=============================================.
"Do you read it in the original Aramaic?"
I've not yet learned to read Aramaic. I often consult an interlinear of the Aramaic.
"enjoy your Peshitta"
I do. Does it bother you at all that Greek mss. suggest that those in danger of Gehenna fire include Jesus and Paul?
Matthew 5:22 (Weymouth NT)
https://biblehub .com/matthew/5-22.htm
https://biblehub .com/interlinear/matthew/5-22.htm
But I say to you that every one who becomes angry with his brother shall be answerable to the magistrate;
that whoever says to his brother 'Raca,' [Ῥακά/ Raca: transliteration of an Aramaic word meaning "spit"] shall be answerable to the Sanhedrin;
and that whoever says, 'You fool!' [Greek: 3474 [e] Mōre/ Μωρέ/ Fool] shall be liable to the Gehenna of Fire.
Matthew 23:17 (YLT)
https://biblehub .com/matthew/23-17.htm
https://biblehub .com/interlinear/matthew/23-17.htm
Fools [Greek: 3474 [e] μωροὶ/ mōroi] and blind! for which is greater, the gold, or the sanctuary that is sanctifying the gold?
1 Corinthians 4:9-10 (YLT)
https://biblehub .com/ylt/1_corinthians/4.htm
https://biblehub .com/interlinear/1_corinthians/4-10.htm
for I think that God did set forth us the apostles last-- as appointed to death, because a spectacle we became to the world, and messengers, and men; we [are] fools [Greek: 3474 [e] μωροὶ/ mōroi] because of Christ, and ye wise in Christ; we [are] ailing, and ye strong; ye glorious, and we dishonoured;
=======================================================.
"you believe that someone in the first century translated 7th-century Syriac into first-century Greek"
I don't believe that.
"Genesis 1:1 says 'gods' created the heaven and the earth. That's monstrous Hebrew, using a plural for a singular entity. Right?"
I know little about Hebrew. Is that bad Hebrew grammar?
"Perhaps it was written in a cave, by an uneducated fisherman in a world with little opportunity to read and write, but still written in Greek?"
The Greek Revelation displays good Greek grammar in places, and displays a large and precise Greek vocabulary. Do you think it was written by someone who was uneducated?
"even if I agreed about the 'monstrous' writing, these aren't the kinds of errors a poor translator would make"
The translator of the original Aramaic Revelation into Greek was competent, but he on occasion dispensed with proper Greek grammar in certain locations in pursuit of a rendition that would retain specific information present in the original Aramaic. The book's 'change this, and you're cursed' warning weighed heavily on his mind.
"claims that the Greek in Revelation being 'monstrous.'"
The Greek grammar of the Greek Revelation most definitely is monstrous.
"even if you had a valid case that the Greek in Revelation were poor"
The Greek of the Greek Revelation is 'translation Greek' translated from Aramaic.
What's your explanation for the Greek Revelation's "astonishing 'offenses against grammar'"?
Charles C. Torrey, _The Apocalypse of John: Introduction, Excerpts, and a New Translation_ (1958), was at the now-defunct https://www.preteristarchive .com/1958_torrey_the-apocalypse-of-john/
For the Apocalyptist the language of the New Dispensation of the Christian Church was Aramaic only. It is most significant that the numerous hymns and doxologies sung or recited by the saints and angels in heaven, in chapter after chapter of the book, are composed in Aramaic (wherever it is possible to decide), not in Hebrew; though the writer could have used either language. ....
The language of the "Revelation of John" has offered one of the most perplexing problems of biblical study. Its author is, on the one hand, a master of Greek and a man of learning: on the other hand, one who writes in an idiom which is not Greek but Semitic, and whose work swarms with major offenses against Greek grammar.
As for the mastery of Greek, it seems at the outset to be shown by the vocabulary of the book. See the details given in Swete's Apocalypse of St John, pp. cxv ff. It is a large vocabulary containing many unusual words, all handled with certainty: employing a great variety of verbs and verbal compounds, all so used as to give the precise shade of meaning desired in each case. As modern commentators agree, the author of the book was a master of Hebrew and made his own translations for that language in his multitudinous allusions to the Old Testament. These translations, without exception, are the work of a scholar who evidently was at least as thoroughly at home in Greek as in Hebrew. They are as accurate, concise, and skillfully fashioned, word on word, as those of any translator. ....
To all appearance, thus far, the Greek of Revelation is the work of a linguist of skill and erudition; why, then, the astonishing "offenses against grammar"? This peculiarity has been a source of great interest and perplexity since the earliest times. ....
For the truth is that the Book of Revelation was written in a Semitic language, and the Greek translation which alone has been preserved is a remarkably close rendering of the original.
Reason for extraordinary faithfulness on the part of a translator is given in 22:18f.:
I testify to every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city.
Here is the warning to any interpreter. The last degree of exactness in reproducing both words and idioms is plainly prescribed, and this is what we see attempted in our curious Greek. In fact, underlying all of the amazing solecisms is seen the wording of the Semitic original. The grammatical monstrosities, recognized in their true nature, testify to the execution of a definite purpose carried through with remarkable consistency. When they are examined, they are found to show grammatical appreciation rather than the lack of it. But it is Aramaic grammar!
(Nevertheless, the ideal of a thoroughly accurate translation was incapable of realization, as we know to our sorrow. No Greek translator of an unpointed Semitic text of the extent of this apocalypse could possibly come through without his considerable sheath of mistranslations. We have no knowledge of any such faultless―or even nearly faultless―achievement.*)
What the Greek translator of Revelation does, in the effort to be exactly faithful, is merely an exaggeration of what is regularly and constantly done in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The translators rendered as they did because of the conception of their task. They were handing down works of high importance, and would assume no unnecessary responsibility. What they―each and all―aimed at was to produce a text which could be understood by the Greek reader and at the same should mirror faithfully every word and phrase of the sacred original. This, the original, was the all-important thing, and the fact was always kept in view. The style of the translation was of no consequence; it was not Greek, nor ever intended to be.
*See Our Translated Gospels [by Torrey], chapter 1; The Four Gospels [by Torrey], pages 265-74.
=====================================================.
"idioms come from culture, not language"
They're expressed using language.
"The quality Greek in Revelation is irrelevant... to whether the Greek is original or a translation"
Is the quality of Burkitt's English here irrelevant to whether the English is original or a translation?:
Torrey, _The Apocalypse of John: Introduction, Excerpts, and a New Translation_ (Yale University Press, 1958).
Professor F. C. Burkitt added to his edition of the Old Syriac Gospels (Evangelion da-Mepharesche; Cambridge University Press, 1904) an English version. Text and translation are printed on opposite pages so that facing each Syriac verse is its English rendering, the latter being as literal as possible. The purpose of this was to enable the student who is ignorant of Syriac to know just what it says in each verse. I will give here examples of this translation-English in sufficient number to form a true picture of the method and to include a sufficient variety of the foreign idioms.
Matt. 5:13. If salt lose its savor and become foolish, wherewith shall it be salted?
6:27. Which of you can add unto his stature one cubit, that about clothing you are anxious? (This, to be sure, is mistranslation of the Syriac, though verbally exact.)
8:14. He saw his mother-in-law lying down and a fever holding her.
8:23. He went up into a boat and his disciples were coming after him.
11:26. Yea, my Father, that so was the will before thee.
15:22. A certain woman … was crying out and saith, Have compassion on me.
16:23. Jesus rebuked him, even Simon.
17:19. They drew near and say to him between themselves and him.
19:9. He that leaveth his wife without a word of adultery.
19:12. He that is capable in power to endure, let him endure.
19:19. Be loving to thy neighbor as thyself.
22:19. And they themselves brought near to him a denar.
23:14. Ye eat up the houses of widows in the pretext that ye are lengthening your prayers.
Mark 14:68. I am not acquainted with what thou sayest.
16:8. To no one aught said they, because they had been afraid.
Luke 9:51. He prepared his countenance to go to Jerusalem. Verse 53, “His countenance for Jerusalem was set to go.
13:13. And straightway her stature was stretched out.
15:3. He saith to them himself this similitude.
15:13. He scattered his property on foods which are not fitting.
20:23. And he himself perceived their ill-will.
John 5:35. Ye wished to make your boast for the hour in his light.
7:24. Do not be judging by faces and faces.
8:38. I, that which I have seen by my Father, I do.
9:11. Go, wash they face with a baptism of Shiloah.
10:24. Till when art thou taking up our breath?
14:13. If ye are loving to me, keep my commandments.
Now Professor Burkitt was not a half-trained writer of English, nor was he indifferent to the requirements of grammar and style. He “thought in Syriac,” indeed, in the sense that he reproduced faithfully and skillfully the idioms of the original. The expert scholar can see the Syriac, word by word and phrase by phrase, underlying his version. The verbal form was the important thing: exactly as illustrated in the LXX, the Gospels, and the Apocalypse, translations of scripture believed to have been divinely inspired. The more barbarous the idiom and the more improbable the reading, the easier (of course) to discern exactly the original text that was rendered.
"Revelation isn't written in 'monstrous' Greek, but in a spoken style"
So the Greek in Greek Revelation 17:4 is typical for spoken Greek?
Torrey, _The Apocalypse of John: Introduction, Excerpts, and a New Translation_ (Yale University Press, 1958).
17:4 (SBL Greek) [NRSV: The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her fornication].
This passage is a remarkable specimen of the method of the too-cautious translator. It illustrates the recognition of an untranslated dī (as shown above in numerous examples), and also, in two other particulars, loyalty to the Aramaic at the expense of the Greek. “The woman was clothed in purple . . . holding in her hand a golden cup (potērion chrysoun [ποτήριον χρυσοῦν]) filled (gemon! [γέμον]) with abominations and the unclean things (bdelygmatōn kai ta akatharta! [βδελυγμάτων καὶ τὰ ἀκάθαρτα]),” etc. A wild bit of Greek, but produced with full knowledge and a definite plan. The editions have gemon [γέμον], but this is correction. The Greek participle translates Aramaic dī mᵉlɔʾ, and “cup” (kɔs) is masculine; gémōn therefore is the only reading that can accomplish the translator’s purpose (see above). The sense of the passage is not harmed.
"What about the Greek in Revelation reflects language constraints and range of Syriac?"
I don't understand the question.
"I've shown you how the Syriac looks like a translation from Greek"
I don't recall that being shown. What did you say?
=============================.
When do you think Revelation 1st existed in Aramaic?
Do you agree with Etheridge that ".... All these authors wrote in Syriac ; and the references they make to the Revelation strongly indicate the existence, so far back as the earliest of them, of a version of the book in that language"?
John Wesley Etheridge, _The Apostolical Acts and Epistles, from the Peschito, or Ancient Syriac: To which are Added, the Remaining Epistles, and the Book of Revelation, after a later Syrian text: Translated, with Prolegomena and Indices_ (1849)
https://archive.org/details/apostolicala...7/mode/2up
Thus the Apocalypse is cited by Jacob of Edessa, though in a version different from the Syrian one now extant and with the origin or fate of which I am not acquainted; and by Ephrem, in the fourth century ; a hundred years earlier, by Hippolytus, a Bishop of Aden, who formally maintained its authority against the objections of Caius ; and earlier still, in the second century, Theophilus of Antioch, in his controversy with Hermogenes, appealed to it as an inspired book. All these authors wrote in Syriac ; and the references they make to the Revelation strongly indicate the existence, so far back as the earliest of them, of a version of the book in that language. In like manner St. Ephrem quotes the Second of Peter, and the Third of John, and the whole of the Epistle of Jude. We admit that it cannot be demonstrated that there was a Syriac version of these books then extant ; but as the fact of such quotations in the works of Syrian writers must be considered a presumption in the affirmative, so the manner in which they are cited leaves no doubt as to the supreme estimate of their authority entertained by the writers themselves.
Eusebius (c. A.D. 260-339), book 4, chapter 24, Theophilus Bishop of Antioch
https://onlineancientwitness.wordpress.c...ry-book-4/
1. Of Theophilus, whom we have mentioned as bishop of the church of Antioch, three elementary works addressed to Autolycus are extant; also another writing entitled _Against the Heresy of Hermogenes_, in which he makes use of testimonies from the Apocalypse of John, and finally certain other catechetical books.
=============.
It was known long ago that the Greek Revelation contains "not accurate Greek, but... uses barbarous idioms, and, in some places, solecisms"-- see Eusebius, quoting Dionysius of Alexandria in paragraph 26:
Eusebius (c. A.D. 260-339), book 7, chapter 25, The Apocalypse of John
https://onlineancientwitness.wordpress.c...k-7/#e7.25
1. Afterward he speaks in this manner of the Apocalypse of John. ....
16. But I think that he was some other one of those in Asia; as they say that there are two monuments in Ephesus, each bearing the name of John.
17. And from the ideas, and from the words and their arrangement, it may be reasonably conjectured that this one is different from that one. ....
22. But the Apocalypse is different from these writings and foreign to them; not touching, nor in the least bordering upon them; almost, so to speak, without even a syllable in common with them.
23. Nay more, the Epistle- for I pass by the Gospel- does not mention nor does it contain any intimation of the Apocalypse, nor does the Apocalypse of the Epistle. But Paul, in his epistles, gives some indication of his revelations, though he has not written them out by themselves.
24. Moreover, it can also be shown that the diction of the Gospel and Epistle differs from that of the Apocalypse.
25. For they were written not only without error as regards the Greek language, but also with elegance in their expression, in their reasonings, and in their entire structure. They are far indeed from betraying any barbarism or solecism, or any vulgarism whatever. For the writer had, as it seems, both the requisites of discourse-that is, the gift of knowledge and the gift of expression-as the Lord had bestowed them both upon him.
26. I do not deny that the other writer saw a revelation and received knowledge and prophecy. I perceive, however, that his dialect and language are not accurate Greek, but that he uses barbarous idioms, and, in some places, solecisms.
27. It is unnecessary to point these out here, for I would not have any one think that I have said these things in a spirit of ridicule, for I have said what I have only with the purpose of showing clearly the difference between the writings.
===============================================.
"you think Revelation was translated into 1st-century Greek from 7th-century Syriac, in the first century"
I don't think that. But perhaps there's a desire to have a strawman to beat up.
"from 7th-century Syriac"
Revelation in Aramaic existed long before the 7th century:
John Wesley Etheridge, _The Apostolical Acts and Epistles, from the Peschito, or Ancient Syriac: To which are Added, the Remaining Epistles, and the Book of Revelation, after a later Syrian text: Translated, with Prolegomena and Indices_ (1849)
https://archive.org/details/apostolicala...7/mode/2up
Thus the Apocalypse is cited by Jacob of Edessa, though in a version different from the Syrian one now extant and with the origin or fate of which I am not acquainted; and by Ephrem, in the fourth century ; a hundred years earlier, by Hippolytus, a Bishop of Aden, who formally maintained its authority against the objections of Caius ; and earlier still, in the second century, Theophilus of Antioch, in his controversy with Hermogenes, appealed to it as an inspired book. All these authors wrote in Syriac ; and the references they make to the Revelation strongly indicate the existence, so far back as the earliest of them, of a version of the book in that language.
"it was written in a time without rigorous standards of writing"
Greek is a very exact language.
"alleged idioms and solecisms are not evidence that something is a product of a translation.... Revelation is... written using conversational Greek"
Do you agree with Charles Torrey and Stephen Broyles and Dionysius of Alexandria that the Greek Revelation contains solecisms?
Solecisms in the book of Revelation - 2017
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/...n.8005493/
The Scribes and the Book of Revelation: How Do You Copy a Book Full of Bad Grammar? - by Stephen Broyles
http://andreascenter.org/Articles/Scribe...on%202.htm
2. Barbarisms and Solecisms ....
These two examples show that the author spoke Greek as a second language. They are actually perfect Hebrew, except for the Greek words. So whoever the author was, it is pretty clear that he was Jewish. ....
Here is the point. A solecism is a violation of these rules of agreement, and the author of Revelation violates them abundantly. ....
4. How Do You Copy a Book Full of Bad Grammar?
There are plenty more barbarisms, but let us move on and have a look at a few solecisms.
Eusebius (c. A.D. 260-339), book 7, chapter 25, The Apocalypse of John
https://onlineancientwitness.wordpress.c...k-7/#e7.25
1. Afterward he speaks in this manner of the Apocalypse of John. ....
26. I [Dionysius of Alexandria] do not deny that the other writer saw a revelation and received knowledge and prophecy. I perceive, however, that his dialect and language are not accurate Greek, but that he uses barbarous idioms, and, in some places, solecisms.
=================================.
"from 7th-century Syriac"
When do you think the Aramaic seen in the Crawford Revelation was originally composed?
John Gwynn, _The Apocalypse of St. John in a Syriac version hitherto unknown, ed. from a MS. in the Library of the Earl of Crawford and Balcarres, with critical notes on the Syriac text, and an annotated reconstruction of the underlying Greek text_ (1897), xviii-xix
https://archive.org/details/apocalypseofstjo00gwynuoft
https://archive.org/stream/apocalypseofs...t_djvu.txt
The Greek of the Apocalypse, above all other New Testament writings, has a Semitic cast, and therefore is capable of idiomatic, while exact, reproduction in a Semitic tongue, such as no effort of a translator could attain in rendering the Epistles in question, or any other part of the New Testament. Compared with the Peshitto proper, it will be found to rival it in vernacular propriety, while giving a closer rendering of the Greek : compared with the Apocalypse of the printed texts, its superiority in purity of idiom, maintained without sacrifice of fidelity to its original, will be apparent.
That the present version deserves the twofold praise I claim for it-- of faithfulness at once to the Greek original and to the Syriac idiom-- will, I believe, be agreed by all competent critics who examine its text as printed at the close of the second Part of the present volume. It is so exact, that in comparing it with the original, no difficulty will be found in determining what reading of the Greek the translator had before him, except in cases where the deficiencies of the Syriac language-- its want of case-endings, its poverty of verbal forms, or the like-- make the discrimination between two or more rival readings impossible : while at the same time it is so idiomatic, that no instance will be met with in which he has sacrificed vernacular propriety for the sake of precise literalness of rendering. His scrupulous fidelity to the substance of the Greek has nowhere betrayed him into the adoption or imitation of Greek constructions, by which the Syriac of the other version of the Apocalypse (in common with the Harkleian) is systematically debased. With him, every word, as well as every phrase, is, with rare exceptions, represented by a purely Syriac equivalent ; and the expedient of naturalizing Greek words, adapted or transliterated, is resorted to only in the two extreme cases-- of words which have absolutely no Syriac equivalent, such as ... (xxi. 20)-- and of words which, by the usage of good writers, have been admitted into the Syriac vocabulary, such as ..., ..., ... (xi. 19, xiv. 20, vi. 11) ; to which are, perhaps, to be added some words of doubtfully Greek origin, such as ..., ... (viii. 11, xi. 9) and some names of precious stones in xxi. 19, 20, and elsewhere. But this practice is with him less frequent than even in the Peshitto New Testament. It is to be added, that he steadfastly avoids the fault of most Syriac translators-- the only one justly chargeable as habitual against the Peshitto, of a tendency to amplification and paraphrase.
The result is, that it would be difficult for a reader unacquainted with the Greek of the Apocalypse to discover that he had here before him a translation, and not an original document. This is so partly, no doubt, in consequence of the character, already noticed, of the Greek, which being of Semitic rather than Hellenic cast, passes naturally, and without reluctance, into Syriac. But any scholar who compares this with the other Syriac version of the Apocalypse, marked as the latter is by a perpetual graecizing of diction and construction, will soon satisfy himself that the purity and idiomatic propriety which, in this version, are combined with close fidelity of rendering, are largely due to the happy method and skill of the translator, and not by any means altogether to the character of the Book with which he had to deal.
=======================================================.
"the earliest known version of Revelation into the Syriac language was translated in the 7th century"
What's the age of the earliest known version of Revelation in Greek?
"the unsupported claim of having had access is pathetically weak argument for an earlier Syriac translation. Why don't you quote Theophilus of Antioch revealing he had access to a full Syriac text of Revelation. How do you know he didn't translate a few verses himself for personal use?"
I don't.
"no one in the Bible spoke the Syriac language"
Not even Jesus, who spoke "Talitha cum," "Ephphatha," "Abba," "Raca," "Amen," and "Eli Eli lema sabachthani"?
What Verses in the New Testament Are Aramaic? - Aug 2, 2019
https://bustedhalo.com/ministry-resource...re-aramaic
Talitha cum meaning “Little girl, get up!” (Mark 5:41)
Ephphatha meaning “Be opened.” (Mark 7:34)
Abba meaning “Father” (Mark 14:36)
Raca meaning “fool” (Matthew 5:22)
Rabbouni meaning “teacher” (John 20:16)
Eli Eli lema sabachthani meaning “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46)
Hosanna meaning “O Lord, save us.” (Mark 11:9)
Maranatha meaning “Lord, come!” (1 Corinthians 16:22)
I agree that the Harklean version of Revelation is a translation from Greek. The Crawford mss. of Revelation is in Aramaic; do you think it was translated from Greek? If 'yes,' what leads you to think that?
=============================================.
Do you think Revelation 1:4 originally had:
"God"?
"Him"? (the Crawford ms. contains "Him")
Revelation 1:4 (HCSB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...rsion=HCSB
John: To the seven churches in Asia. Grace and peace to you from[a] the One who is, who was, and who is coming; from the seven spirits before His throne;
a: Other mss add God
Aramaic to Dutch to (via Google translate) English, dukhrana.com
Revelation 1:4 - John, to the seven churches in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is, and which was, and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before his throne,
Him - this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta and the Greek TR and NA28. The reading of the Greek MHT is "God."
=========================================.
Do you think Revelation 1:5 originally had:
"has washed us"?
"has set us free"? (the Crawford ms. contains "loosed")
"To Him who has loved us"?
"To Him who loves us"? (the Crawford ms. contains "who loves us")
Revelation 1:5 (HCSB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...rsion=HCSB
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and has set us free[a] from our sins by His blood,
a: Other mss read has washed us
interlinear of Crawford Rev 1:5
http://dukhrana.com/peshitta/analyze_ver...ize=125%25
CAL on the Aramaic word in question
http://dukhrana.com/lexicon/word.php?adr...ize=125%25
Aramaic to Dutch to (via Google translate) English, dukhrana.com
Revelation 1:5 - and from Jesus Christ, the Faithful Witness, the Firstborn of the dead, the Prince of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and has redeemed us from our sins through His blood,
loves - this rendering conforms to the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta and of the Greek MHT and NA28, but the reading of the Greek TR and various other manuscripts reads: "has loved".
==================================.
Do you think Revelation 1:6 originally had:
"made us to be a kingdom [and] priests"?
"made us a priestly kingdom"? (the Crawford ms. contains the latter)
"to the ages, amen"?
"to the ages of the ages, amen"?
"to the age (of) ages, continuing"? (the Crawford ms. contains the latter. 'Amen' is an Aramaic word that here means 'continuing.' The Greek NT contains numerous transliterations of the Aramaic 'amen.')
Revelation 1:6
https://biblehub.com/revelation/1-6.htm
(NIV) and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father--to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
(Berean Literal) and He has made us a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the dominion to the ages of the ages. Amen.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) And he has made us The Priestly Kingdom to God and his Father; to him be glory and Empire to the eternity of eternities. Amen.
Aramaic to Dutch to (via Google translate) English, dukhrana.com
Revelation 1:6 -- He (it is) who has made us a priestly kingdom before GOD and His Father -, to Him (is) the glory and the dominion for all eternity. Amen!
to a priestly kingdom for his GOD and Father - this is the reading of the Aramean Peshitta. The Greek MHT and TR reads, "for a kingdom, for priests to GOD his Father." In the reading of the Greek NA28 the words follow: "for his GOD and Father".
until all eternity - this is the translation of the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta which literally says: 'to the eternity of the eternities' or 'to the century of the ages', the 'era' that transcends all eras, so by us translated as: 'forever and ever'. The phrase is characteristic of the book of Revelation and appears 13 times in this book of the Bible. There are many Greek manuscripts that read only "(until) forever". In the Peshitta we find in Op. 14:6 we still find the expression "the everlasting Good News."
Greek texts, interlinear of Revelation 1:6
https://biblehub.com/texts/revelation/1-6.htm
https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/1-6.htm
=========================================.
Do you think Rev 1:8, 1:11, 21:6, and 22:13 originally:
a) had "Alpha... Ὦ"?
had "Aleph... Tav"? (the Crawford ms. contains "Tav" in Rev 1:8, 21:6, and 22:13)
b) had "the Beginning and the End"?
lacked "the Beginning and the End"? (the Crawford ms. lacks that)
c) had "Kyrios/ Κύριος/ Lord"?
had "MrYa"? (the Crawford ms. contains MrYa, which is short for "Master YHWH")
d) lacked "God"?
had "God"? (the Crawford ms. contains 'God')
Revelation 1:8
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/1-8.htm
Egō/ Ἐγώ/ I
eimi/ εἰμι/ am
to/ τὸ/ the
Alpha/ Ἄλφα
kai/ καὶ/ and
to/ τὸ/ the
Ō/ Ὦ
....
legei/ λέγει/ says
Kyrios/ Κύριος/ Lord
ho/ ὁ/ the
Theos/ Θεός/ God
Ὦ (Ō) — 4 Occurrences
https://biblehub.com/greek/o__5598.htm
Revelation 1:8
Revelation 1:11
Revelation 21:6
Revelation 22:13
Aramaic to Dutch to (via Google translate) English, dukhrana.com
Revelation 1: 8 - I am the Aleph and the Tav, (the beginning and the ending), saith the LORD GOD, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
the Alef and the Tav - these are the first and the last letter of the Aramaic alphabet. In the Greek text we read: the Alpha and the Omega ", where the Alpha is written in full, while the Omega is in the text as a single, loose Greek letter. In itself that is a somewhat strange combination. In the Aramaic Peshitta we read: "aléf" af téu ", which is translated: "the aleph, also the tav", i.e. the Aramaic letters that come at the beginning and end of the Aramaic (‹ and Hebrew ›) alphabet. Both letters are written in full. ....
the Beginning and the End - only in the Greek TR we find these words, but they are a suitable clarification of the for many readers strange Aramaic letters 'Alef' and 'Tav' and the equally strange Greek letters 'Alpha' and 'Omega' .
the LORD - in capital letters because in the Aramaic Peshitta here the Aramaic name stands for YaHWeH, namely "Mar-Jah". This name occurs 239 times in the Aramaic Peshitta in the NT of which 14 times in the book of Revelation, the last time in Op. 22:20 where the Name is very special combined with the name of Jesus, so "the LORD Jesus". The Name does not appear in the following NT-isch books of the Peshitta: Galatians, 1 Thessalonians, Titus, Philemon and 1st and 2nd letters of John.
GOD - only in the reading of the reading of the Greek TR the name "GOD" is missing.
==========================================.
Do you think Rev 1:9 originally:
a) had "kingdom"?
lacked "kingdom"? (the Crawford ms. lacks "kingdom")
b) had "testimony of Jesus"?
had "testimony of Jesus Christ"? (the Crawford ms. has "testimony of Jesus Christ")
Revelation 1:9
http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-9.htm
(NIV) I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) I Yohannan am your brother and companion in suffering and in the patience which is in Yeshua. I was in the island that is called Patmos, because of the word of God and because of the testimony of Yeshua The Messiah.
Aramaic to Dutch to (via Google translate) English, dukhrana.com
Revelation 1:9 - I John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and in the endurance in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos, for the Word of GOD and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
in the persistence of Jesus - this is the reading of the Aramean Peshitta. The reading of the Greek NA28, MHT and TR reads: "In the Kingdom and in the endurance of Jesus." The word "Kingdom" is therefore missing from the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta. ....
the testimony of Jesus Christ - this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta and the Greek MHT and TR. The reading of the Greek NA28 is: "Jesus."
==========================.
Do you think Rev 1:10 originally had:
"on the Lord's Day"?
"on the first day of the week"? (the Crawford ms. has "on the first day of the week")
What do you think the Greek mss.'s "on the Lord's Day" refers to?
Revelation 1:10
https://biblehub.com/revelation/1-10.htm
(NIV) On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) And I was in The Spirit on the first day of the week, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,
Revelation 1:10 - I was in the Spirit on the first day of the week and I heard behind me a loud voice like a [ram's horn],
on the first day of the week - this is the unique reading of the Aramean Peshitta. The reading of the Greek NA28, MHT and TR reads: "in the day of the Lord", but with that translation it should be noted that the Greek expression || "εν τη κυριακη ημερα" || literally means "in the day that belongs to the Lord." This can be understood in different ways, namely as:
- (‹1›) "the Sunday", the day on which Christ rose. This is traditionally the day on which the congregation met, but then probably on the Saturday evening, which among the Jews was regarded as the beginning of the new week and as the beginning of the first day of the week (‹see Acts 20: 7 where that is clearly legible›). Incidentally, it was not customary to refer to the first day of the week as the day of the Lord, even though the same word comes 'Lordly', ie 'belonging to the Lord' (‹in the inflection 'kuriakon'›), but in connection with the Lord's Supper (‹ie 'the meal which belongs to the Lord'›) in 1 Cor. 11:20. Since we do not find this expression for "the first day of the week" elsewhere in the Greek NT, we must be careful about hasty conclusions. If the Greek were a translation of the Aramaic, the translator may have tried to add something extra in his translation about the importance of the day.
- (‹2›) Sunday as the day of the emperor, "domingo", because the Greek word "kuriakè" was often used in the sense of "imperial". The designation would then refer to an important day in the imperial cult, but it seems very inappropriate to pay attention to a worldly emperor and his day in the book about the King of kings.
- (‹3›) "the day of the Lord", referred to in the OT as: "the day of the Lord" or: "day of the Lord". It is rightly objected to this that in the NT we encounter this expression in a different Greek form in 1 Th. 5: 2, 2 Th. 2: 2 and 2 Pt. 3:10, i.e. with Paul and Peter. This is indeed suggestive, but perhaps this is related to the Greek of Revelation which would deviate from the Greek of the Gospel and would be "clumsy" here and there. Others, however, believe that the clumsy Greek is due to the fact that the Aramaic version of Revelation preceded the Greek and that Aramaic version clearly says "the first day of the week". The Greek wording would then be a "somewhat sought after" translation of Aramaic. Against the translation "day of the LORD" (‹the day of YaHWeH›) it is also argued that we do not find the Aramaic variant of the name YaHWeH here in the Peshitta.
ram's horn - in Aramaic it has the word "shifura" which resembles the Hebrew "shofar".
Revelation 1:10, Pulpit Commentary
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/revelation/1-10.htm
Verse 10 .... On the Lord's day. The expression occurs here only in the New Testament, and beyond all reasonable doubt it means "on Sunday." This is, therefore, the earliest use of the phrase in this sense. That it means Easter Day or Pentecost is baseless conjecture. The phrase had not yet become common in A.D. [__], as is shown from St. Paul writing, "on the first of the week" (1 Corinthians 16:2), the usual expression in the Gospels and Acts (Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1; John 20:19; Acts 20:7; comp. Mark 16:9).
================================================
"if the Greek were a translation, it wouldn't have changed from the 'first day of the week.'"
Lots of things get changed in formulating a translation. It's inevitable.
Moreover, the Greek transmission/recopying practices were rather sloppy at times, thereby introducing additional changes.
"the Peshitta which came centuries later... also says 'Lord's day.' .... it says 'Yaumo moronoio', Lord's day"
In the Harklean, sure, but the Crawford has for Rev 1:10
0mwyb in the day
0b4bdxd of one in seven
- PDF at
http://dukhrana.com/crawford/
I agree that the Harklean version of Revelation is a translation from Greek. The Crawford ms. of Revelation is in Aramaic; do you think it was translated from Greek? If 'yes,' what leads you to think that?
==========================================
Do you think Revelation 1:11 originally had:
"I am the Alpha and the O [i.e. Omega], the First and the Last"? (the Crawford ms. lacks that)
"who are in Asia"? (the Crawford ms. lacks that)
Revelation 1:11
https://biblehub.com/revelation/1-11.htm
(NIV) which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."
(NKJV) saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) Which said, "Those things which you have seen, write in a book and send to the seven assemblies: to Ephesaus, to Zmurna, to Pergamaus, to Thawatyra, to Sardis, to Philadelphia and to Laidiqia.
Aramaic to Dutch to (via Google translate) English, dukhrana.com
Revelation 1:11 - said, "What you see, write it in a letter and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Tyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."
who said - in the Greek TR we read hereafter: 'I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last', but we do not find these words in the reading of the Greek NA28 and MHT, nor in the reading of the Aramean Peshitta.
the seven congregations - in the reading of the Greek TR we read below: "who are in Asia", but we do not find those words in the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta and of the Greek NA28 and MHT. Nevertheless, these seven congregations were located in what was then Asia Minor (<the present-day Turkey>), north of Ephesus, along a road that ran in a kind of circle past all the seven congregations (<see the map of the 7 congregations>) .
====================================.
Do you think Revelation 1:12 originally had:
"to see the voice that"?
"to know the voice that"? (which the Crawford ms. has)
Revelation 1:12
(NIV) I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) And I turned to know that voice which spoke with me, and when I turned around, I saw seven menorahs of gold;
Revelation 1:12 - I turned to know whose voice was speaking to me. And (when) I turned around, I saw seven golden candlesticks.
to know who the voice belonged to - literally it says in the reading of the Aramean Peshitta 'to know the voice that ...' The reading of the Greek NA28, MHT and TR reads: 'to see the voice that ...'.
===========================================.
Do you think Revelation 1:13 originally had:
"a robe reaching down to his feet"?
"an ephod"? (which the Crawford ms. has)
Revelation 1:13
(NIV) and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet
and with a golden sash around his chest.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) And in the midst of the menorahs as the likeness of a man, and he wore an ephod
and he was girded around his chest with a golden wrap.
Revelation 1:13 - In the midst of the candlesticks was a man like a Son of Man, clothed with a priestly tunic and on his chest (He) wore a golden girdle.
chest - literally: "breasts".
a priest's tunic - this is reading of the Aramaic Peshitta: "efoda". This word, according to Bauscher, can stand for "the ephod" i.e. the tunic of the high priest in the OT. The word "ephoda" occurs in the Peshitta only in Hos. 3: 4 and in this verse in Revelation. Thus it is immediately clear in the Peshitta that we are dealing here with the High Priest. In the Peshitta the words "to the feet" are missing, for the ephod did not reach that far. The Greek refers to the priestly dress, which in itself is an argument in favor of the idea that the Greek text originated from the Aramaic. Bauscher points to the parable of the Aramaic words for "ephod" and "fine linen" in Ex. 25: 7; 28: 4.31; 29: 5; 35: 9 and onwards also in Ezek. 9: 2, 3, 11 and Zech. 3: 4 of the Peshitta of the OT. This might have led to confusion when translating from Aramaic. ....
What is striking is that the Aramaic word "pawdara" that we find in the Harklese version of the Aramaic New Testament has a strong sound resemblance to the Greek word || ποδηρη || (<Podiri>) for the long priestly robe in the LXX and in the text of this verse in the Greek NT.
============================.
Do you think Revelation 1:14 originally had:
"white like wool, as white as snow"?
"white as wool and like snow"? (which the Crawford ms. has)
Revelation 1:14
(NIV) The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow,
and his eyes were like blazing fire.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) And his head and his hair were white as wool and like snow,
and his eyes were like flames of fire.
===================================.
Do you think Revelation 1:17 originally had:
"saying to me"?
merely "saying"? (which the Crawford ms. has)
Revelation 1:17
(Berean Literal) And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as though dead.
And He placed His right hand upon me, saying,
"Fear not. I am the First and the Last,
(King James) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead.
And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me,
Fear not; I am the first and the last:
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet like a dead man,
and he laid his right hand upon me saying,
"Do not be afraid, for I am The First and The Last;
Revelation 1:17 - When I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead and He put His right hand on me and said, "Do not be afraid, for I am the First and the Last,
and said - this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta and of the Greek NA28. The reading of the Greek MHT and TR reads: "and said to me".
==================================.
Do you think Revelation 1:18 originally had:
"amen"? (which the Crawford ms. has, where it's best rendered as 'continuing/perpetual')
"keys"?
"key"? (which the Crawford ms. has)
Hades?
Sheol? (which the Crawford ms. has)
Revelation 1:18
(NIV) I am the Living One; I was dead,
and now look, I am alive for ever and ever!
And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
(King James) I am he that liveth, and was dead;
and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen;
and have the keys of hell and of death.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) I am he who lived and died,
and behold, I am alive to the eternity of eternities, amen,
and I have the key of Death and of Sheol.
Revelation 1:18 - the Living One, and I have been dead. Behold, I live forever and ever, and have the key of death and of Hades.
key - this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta. The reading of the Greek NA28, MHT, and TR reads: "keys" (plural).
realm of the dead - in Greek "hades".
eternity - in a number of Greek manuscripts and in the Greek TR we find the word "Amen" hereafter, but that word does not appear in the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta and of the Greek NA28 and MHT. [correction: "amen" _is_ in the Crawford ms.-- see
http://dukhrana.com/crawford/
===================================.
Do you think Revelation 1:20 originally had:
"seven golden lampstands... seven lampstands"?
"seven lampstands... seven golden lampstands"? (which the Crawford ms. has)
Revelation 1:20
(NIV) The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand and the seven menorahs: the seven stars are the Messengers of the seven assemblies, and the seven menorahs of gold which you saw are the seven assemblies.
Aramaic to Dutch to (via Google translate) English, dukhrana.com
Revelation 1:20 - The mystery of the seven stars, which you saw in my right hand, and (of) the seven lampstands (is this): the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches and the seven golden lampstands that you are the seven churches."
the seven golden candlesticks you have seen - this is the reading of the Aramean Peshitta. In the reading of the Greek NA28, MHT and TR, the word "golden" is missing here. However, the word is found in Greek for the first word "candlesticks" in this verse, while it does not appear there in the Peshitta.
===========================================.
"your latest argument that the 1st-century Greek manuscripts of Revelation are a translation of 7th-century Syriac"
That's not my argument. But perhaps there's a desire to have a strawman to beat up.
"variation itself is not evidence of translation"
What _would_ constitute "evidence of translation"?
"There's no reason a translation would introduce a totally new word"
Translations typically make use of totally new words. Sometimes, translations introduce meanings not present in the original material.
"leaving out a word is an actual mistake from copying"
Always?
"my Syriac text does say golden"
Do you think Revelation 1:20 originally had:
"seven golden lampstands... seven lampstands"?
"seven lampstands... seven golden lampstands"? (which the Crawford ms. has)
Revelation 1:20
(NIV)
The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English, working with the Crawford ms.)
The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand and the seven menorahs: the seven stars are the Messengers of the seven assemblies, and the seven menorahs of gold which you saw are the seven assemblies.
=======================================================.
Do you think Revelation 2:1 originally had:
"his right hand"?
"his hand"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
Revelation 2:1
(NIV) "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) And to The Messenger of the assembly of Ephesaus write: 'Thus says he who holds the seven stars in his hand, he who walks among the menorahs of gold:'”
Revelation 2:1 - Write to the Angel of the Church of Ephesus! This is what he says, who holds the seven stars in his hand, who walks among the golden candlesticks:
his hand - this is the reading of the Aramean Peshitta. The Greek NA28, MHT and TR read: "his right hand."
======================.
Do you think Revelation 2:2 originally had:
"saying themselves to be apostles"?
"say they are apostles"?
"claim to be apostles"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
Revelation 2:2
(Young's Literal) I have known thy works, and thy labour, and thy endurance, and that thou art not able to bear evil ones, and that thou hast tried those saying themselves to be apostles and are not, and hast found them liars,
(King James) I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
(NIV) I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) “I know your works, your toil and your patience, and that you cannot tolerate The Evil One, and you have tested those who claim to be Apostles, and they are not, and you have found them false.”
Revelation 2:2 - “I know your works and your effort and your patience and that you cannot bear the evil ones and that you have tested those who claim to be apostles, (but) they are not and that you find out have that they are liars.
who claim - this is the reading of the Aramean Peshitta. The reading of the Greek NA28 and MHT is "who say of themselves", while the reading of the Greek TR is "who say".
==========================
Do you think Revelation 2:5 originally had:
"the first works"?
"the earlier/former works"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
"I will come soon/quickly"?
"I will come"?
"I will come against you"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
Revelation 2:5
(NIV) Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
(King James) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) “Remember from where you have come out and do the former works; but if not, I will come against you and I will remove your menorah, unless you repent.
Revelation 2:5 - Remember where you came from and repent and do the former works. If not, I will turn against you and take your candlestick from its place unless you repent.
the earlier works - this is the reading of the Aramean Peshitta. The reading of the Greek NA28, MHT and TR reads: "the first works".
then I will turn against you - more literally, "then I will come against you." This is the reading of the Aramean Peshitta. The reading of the Greek MHT and TR reads: "I will come soon." The reading of the Greek NA28 is similar, except that the word "soon" is missing.
==========================
Do you think Revelation 2:7 originally had:
"in the middle of paradise"?
"in paradise"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
"my God"
"God"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
Revelation 2:7
(NIV) Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
(King James) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
(Douay-Rheims) He, that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches: To him, that overcometh, I will give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of my God.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) He who has an ear to hear, let him hear what The Spirit is speaking to the assemblies, and I shall give to the victor to eat of the tree of life, which is in The Paradise of God.
Revelation 2:7 - He who has ears to hear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will feed from the Tree of Life, which is in the paradise of GOD." in paradise - this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta and of the Greek NA28 and MHT. The Greek TR and some other Greek manuscripts read "in the middle of paradise."
GOD - this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta and of the Greek NA28 and TR. The reading of the Greek MHT is: "my GOD"
==========================
Do you think Revelation 2:9 originally had:
"your works and tribulation and poverty"?
"your tribulation and poverty"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
"say they are Jews"?
"call themselves Yudia Yudia" i.e. 'authentic Judeans'? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
Revelation 2:9
(NIV) I know your afflictions and your poverty--yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
(King James) I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) “I know your suffering and your poverty (but you are rich) and the blasphemy of those who call themselves Jews of the Judeans, when they are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.”
Revelation 2:9 - “I know of your tribulation and your poverty, - (even though) you are rich -, and of the blasphemy against those who say they are real Jews when they are not, but a synagogue of Satan.
your tribulation - in the Greek MHT and TR it still says: "your works", but we do not find that text in the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta and the Greek NA28.
true Jews - literally, "Jews of the Jews" or, "Jews of the Judaeans," translated by Mariano Franco in his Spanish edition of the Peshitta as "authentic Jews." The doubling of a word is indeed a way to reinforce a meaning, think of "king of kings" etc.
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Do you think Revelation 2:13 originally had:
"I know your works, and where you dwell"?
"I know where you dwell"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
"in the days when Antipas was my faithful martyr"?
"in the days when in the cause of all of you, my faithful witness who was killed among you"?
"in the days when you and my faithful witness contended for the sake of all my faithful witnesses"? (the Crawford ms. contains the last one)
"where Satan has his throne.... where Satan lives"?
simply "the place of Satan's throne"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
Revelation 2:13
(NIV) I know where you live--
where Satan has his throne.
Yet you remain true to my name.
You did not renounce your faith in me,
not even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness,
who was put to death in your city--
where Satan lives.
(King James) I know thy works, and where thou dwellest,
even where Satan's seat is:
and thou holdest fast my name,
and hast not denied my faith,
even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr,
who was slain among you,
where Satan dwelleth.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) "'I know where you dwell:
the place of Satan's throne,
and you keep my name
and have not denied my faith,
and in the days when you and my faithful witness contended for the sake of all my faithful witnesses,
he was murdered among you.'”
Revelation 2:13 - “I know where you live, where the throne of Satan is, and you hold fast to my name and have not denied faith in me, (for) in the days when you and my faithful witness (together) fought for all my faithful witnesses, he was killed among you.
I know - in the reading of the Greek TR and the MHT hereafter follows "your works and", but these words are missing in the reading of the Greek NA28 and the Aramaic Peshitta.
explanation - our translation of this verse follows the Aramaic text of the Peshitta. The Greek text reads as follows: "Not even in the days when Antipas was my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells." This text leads to the following remarks and questions: Why are the words at the end of the verse: 'where Satan dwells', while in the beginning of the verse it is said 'where the throne of Satan is'. That's double....
frequent differences in Greek source texts....
The Greek "anti pas" with a space between the two words means "for the sake of all" or "for the cause of all". In some cases the Greek "anti" means "against", but the first meaning is "in the place of" or "for the sake of" or "for the cause of". The little Greek word || πας || means "all" or "everyone". Now if we revise the translation from the Greek on the basis of this knowledge, we read, "In the days when in the cause of all of you, my faithful witness who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.'' This sentence it does not run well, but the meaning comes closer to the text of the Aramaic Peshitta, apart from the closing sentence that may have been added; the name Antipas suddenly pops up here and is not found anywhere else in the NT or in the known church history of the congregation of Pergamum.
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Do you think Revelation 2:15 originally had:
"the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate"?
simply "the doctrine of the Nicolaitans"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
Revelation 2:15
(NIV) Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans.
(King James) So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) “So you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Naqolaytans, likewise.
Revelation 2:15 - Likewise you have those who hold to the doctrine of the Nicolaitans.
Nicolaitanes - in the reading of the Greek TR we read below: "that I hate," that is, the doctrine. These words are missing from the reading of the Greek NA28, MHT and the Aramaic Peshitta.
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Do you think Revelation 2:17 originally had:
"I will give to eat of the hidden manna"?
"I will give of the hidden manna"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
Revelation 2:17
(NIV) Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious,
I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.
(King James) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh
will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) “And he who has an ear, let him hear what The Spirit speaks to the assemblies: 'To the one who is victorious
I shall give of the manna which is hidden, and I shall give him a white pebble, and upon the pebble, a name in writing that no man knows except he who receives.'”
Revelation 2:17 - He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him that overcometh
will I give of the hidden "manna," and will give him a white pebble, and on the pebble shall be written a new name, which no man knoweth but he that receiveth it."
to him I will give ... - this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta and of the Greek NA28 and MHT. The reading of the Greek TR reads, "Him will I feed of the hidden manna."
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Do you think Revelation 2:20 originally had:
"I have this against you"?
"I have a few things against you"?
"I have much against you"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
"that woman"?
"your wife"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
Revelation 2:20
(NIV) Nevertheless, I have this against you:
You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.
(King James) Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee,
because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) “I have much against you,
because you are tolerating your wife Jezebel who says about herself that she is a Prophetess, and teaches and seduces my Servants to commit fornication and to eat the sacrifices of idols.”
Revelation 2:20 - But I have a lot against you:
that you let your wife Jezebel go about her business, who says of herself that she is a prophetess and teaches and tempts my servants to commit fornication and to eat idol offerings.
I have a lot against you - this is the reading of the Aramean Peshitta. The reading of the Greek NA28 and MHT is: "I have against you." From the Greek TR the reading is: "I have some things against you."
your wife - this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta and of the Greek MHT. The reading of the Greek NA28 and TR is "the woman".
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Do you think Revelation 2:22 originally had:
"I will cast her into a bed"?
"I cast her upon a bier"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
"her deeds"?
"their deeds"? (the Crawford ms. contains that)
Revelation 2:22
(Literal Standard Version) behold, I will cast her into a bed,
and those committing adultery with her into great tribulation-- if they may not convert from her works,
(King James) Behold, I will cast her into a bed,
and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Revelation 2:22 - Behold, I cast her upon a bier,
and those who commit adultery with her I bring into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.
on a bier - this is the bed on which a dead person lies. The Aramaic word can certainly also mean "bed" or "sickbed", but in Lk. 7:14 the same word is used in Aramaic Peshitta for the bier on which the dead young man from Nain lies. In the reading of the Greek NA28, MHT and TR it says "bed", sometimes interpreted as "sick bed". But the question is whether it might be more correct to see a bier in this, because we read in the next verse of her children that they are being put to death. Would God judge the children more severely than their mother, who is apparently the cause of evil?
their deeds - this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta and of the Greek TR, but the reading of the Greek NA28 and MHT reads: "her deeds". Despite this, many translations opt for "their deeds".