03-28-2018, 06:53 AM
(This post was last modified: 03-28-2018, 04:42 PM by Charles Wilson.
Edit Reason: clarity
)
Thirdwoe --
I thank you very much. I can certainly agree with "...you [2nd person plural] who are evil...". Makes sense.
As to whether this echoes Herod:
Josephus, Ant..., 15, 9, 1+:
" NOW on this very year, which was the thirteenth year of the reign of Herod, very great calamities came upon the country; whether they were derived from the anger of God, or whether this misery returns again naturally in certain periods of time for, in the first place, there were perpetual droughts, and for that reason the ground was barren, and did not bring forth the same quantity of fruits that it used to produce..."
Famine. Big time famine.
"In these circumstances he [Herod] considered with himself how to procure some seasonable help; but this was a hard thing to be done, while their neighbors had no food to sell them; and their money also was gone, had it been possible to purchase a little food at a great price. However, he thought it his best way, by all means, not to leave off his endeavors to assist his people; so he cut off the rich furniture that was in his palace, both of silver and gold, insomuch that he did not spare the finest vessels he had, or those that were made with the most elaborate skill of the artificers, but sent the money to Petronius, who had been made prefect of Egypt by Caesar..."
Herod sells the palace furniture and pays Petronius in Egypt for any grain he can obtain. Hence: "...Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? ", echoing the Escape from Egypt.
"And Herod taking care the people should understand that this help came from himself, did thereby not only remove the ill opinion of those that formerly hated him, but gave them the greatest demonstration possible of his good-will to them, and care of them; for, in the first place, as for those who were able to provide their own food, he distributed to them their proportion of corn in the exactest manner; but for those many that were not able, either by reason of their old age, or any other infirmity, to provide food for themselves, he made this provision for them, the bakers should make their bread ready for them..."
Here is Mark (and Matthew): " "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea...". What is interesting is that Matthew has the Markan quote as well. Which leads to: "Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?" What does "Stone" have to do with "Bread"? Appearance?...Or something else?
Herod is evil. If he can tempt some with bread and have them change their opinion of him, it would be better if a giant stone were tied around his neck and be thrown into the sea. Why? Herod will turn this into a moment of glory for him:
"Now it happened that this care of his, and this seasonable benefaction, had such influence on the Jews, and was so cried up among other nations, as to wipe off that old hatred which his violation of some of their customs, during his reign, had procured him among all the nation, and that this liberality of his assistance in this their greatest necessity was full satisfaction for all that he had done of that nature, as it also procured him great fame among foreigners; and it looked as if these calamities that afflicted his land, to a degree plainly incredible, came in order to raise his glory, and to be to his great advantage..."
Question: Look at the Markan quote again. Did anyone ever throw "...millstones of a donkey" into the sea? Herod did:
"Now upon his observation of a place near the sea, which was very proper for containing a city, and was before called Strato's Tower, he set about getting a plan for a magnificent city there, and erected many edifices with great diligence all over it, and this of white stone. He also adorned it with most sumptuous palaces and large edifices for containing the people; and what was the greatest and most laborious work of all, he adorned it with a haven, that was always free from the waves of the sea. Its largeness was not less than the Pyrmum [at Athens], and had towards the city a double station for the ships. It was of excellent workmanship; and this was the more remarkable for its being built in a place that of itself was not suitable to such noble structures, but was to be brought to perfection by materials from other places, and at very great expenses. This city is situate in Phoenicia, in the passage by sea to Egypt, between Joppa and Dora, which are lesser maritime cities, and not fit for havens, on account of the impetuous south winds that beat upon them, which rolling the sands that come from the sea against the shores, do not admit of ships lying in their station; but the merchants are generally there forced to ride at their anchors in the sea itself. So Herod endeavored to rectify this inconvenience, and laid out such a compass towards the land as might be sufficient for a haven, wherein the great ships might lie in safety; and this he effected by letting down vast stones of above fifty feet in length, not less than eighteen in breadth, and nine in depth, into twenty fathom deep; and as some were lesser, so were others bigger than those dimensions..."
You can find many pictures of the remains of the Safe Harbor of Caesarea. That's why I find an explanation of the language used. Herod was evil since he did many things for his glory and not the Glory of God. He also, for example, opened the Temple on the anniversary of his ascension so you worship God and you worship Herod. He was DEEPLY hated.
"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
CW
I thank you very much. I can certainly agree with "...you [2nd person plural] who are evil...". Makes sense.
As to whether this echoes Herod:
Josephus, Ant..., 15, 9, 1+:
" NOW on this very year, which was the thirteenth year of the reign of Herod, very great calamities came upon the country; whether they were derived from the anger of God, or whether this misery returns again naturally in certain periods of time for, in the first place, there were perpetual droughts, and for that reason the ground was barren, and did not bring forth the same quantity of fruits that it used to produce..."
Famine. Big time famine.
"In these circumstances he [Herod] considered with himself how to procure some seasonable help; but this was a hard thing to be done, while their neighbors had no food to sell them; and their money also was gone, had it been possible to purchase a little food at a great price. However, he thought it his best way, by all means, not to leave off his endeavors to assist his people; so he cut off the rich furniture that was in his palace, both of silver and gold, insomuch that he did not spare the finest vessels he had, or those that were made with the most elaborate skill of the artificers, but sent the money to Petronius, who had been made prefect of Egypt by Caesar..."
Herod sells the palace furniture and pays Petronius in Egypt for any grain he can obtain. Hence: "...Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? ", echoing the Escape from Egypt.
"And Herod taking care the people should understand that this help came from himself, did thereby not only remove the ill opinion of those that formerly hated him, but gave them the greatest demonstration possible of his good-will to them, and care of them; for, in the first place, as for those who were able to provide their own food, he distributed to them their proportion of corn in the exactest manner; but for those many that were not able, either by reason of their old age, or any other infirmity, to provide food for themselves, he made this provision for them, the bakers should make their bread ready for them..."
Here is Mark (and Matthew): " "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea...". What is interesting is that Matthew has the Markan quote as well. Which leads to: "Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?" What does "Stone" have to do with "Bread"? Appearance?...Or something else?
Herod is evil. If he can tempt some with bread and have them change their opinion of him, it would be better if a giant stone were tied around his neck and be thrown into the sea. Why? Herod will turn this into a moment of glory for him:
"Now it happened that this care of his, and this seasonable benefaction, had such influence on the Jews, and was so cried up among other nations, as to wipe off that old hatred which his violation of some of their customs, during his reign, had procured him among all the nation, and that this liberality of his assistance in this their greatest necessity was full satisfaction for all that he had done of that nature, as it also procured him great fame among foreigners; and it looked as if these calamities that afflicted his land, to a degree plainly incredible, came in order to raise his glory, and to be to his great advantage..."
Question: Look at the Markan quote again. Did anyone ever throw "...millstones of a donkey" into the sea? Herod did:
"Now upon his observation of a place near the sea, which was very proper for containing a city, and was before called Strato's Tower, he set about getting a plan for a magnificent city there, and erected many edifices with great diligence all over it, and this of white stone. He also adorned it with most sumptuous palaces and large edifices for containing the people; and what was the greatest and most laborious work of all, he adorned it with a haven, that was always free from the waves of the sea. Its largeness was not less than the Pyrmum [at Athens], and had towards the city a double station for the ships. It was of excellent workmanship; and this was the more remarkable for its being built in a place that of itself was not suitable to such noble structures, but was to be brought to perfection by materials from other places, and at very great expenses. This city is situate in Phoenicia, in the passage by sea to Egypt, between Joppa and Dora, which are lesser maritime cities, and not fit for havens, on account of the impetuous south winds that beat upon them, which rolling the sands that come from the sea against the shores, do not admit of ships lying in their station; but the merchants are generally there forced to ride at their anchors in the sea itself. So Herod endeavored to rectify this inconvenience, and laid out such a compass towards the land as might be sufficient for a haven, wherein the great ships might lie in safety; and this he effected by letting down vast stones of above fifty feet in length, not less than eighteen in breadth, and nine in depth, into twenty fathom deep; and as some were lesser, so were others bigger than those dimensions..."
You can find many pictures of the remains of the Safe Harbor of Caesarea. That's why I find an explanation of the language used. Herod was evil since he did many things for his glory and not the Glory of God. He also, for example, opened the Temple on the anniversary of his ascension so you worship God and you worship Herod. He was DEEPLY hated.
"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
CW