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"Not fit to untie the <<Loop>> of his sandal..."
Hello everyone.

Someone began Posting on another site about John found in Mark.  Of course, in my blundering naivete, this was "Settled Science".
"I'll just get my notes, enlighten some people and..."

Uh-Oh!  There is a gap in the language at just this point.

Mark 1: 7 (RSV):

[7] And he preached, saying, "After me comes he who is mightier than I, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie.

John 1: 27, 30 (RSV):

[27] even he who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie."
[30] This is he of whom I said, `After me comes a man who ranks before me, for he was before me.'

This is simply amazing to me.  In every sense of the word, Amazing!

For years, I've been looking at the Mishmarot Priesthood.  Look at 1 Chronicles 24 and "The House of Eleazar".  Eleazar and Ithamar provide 24 Groups for Temple Service.

1 Chronicles 24: 1 - 4, 7, 14  (RSV):

[1] The divisions of the sons of Aaron were these. The sons of Aaron: Nadab, Abi'hu, Elea'zar, and Ith'amar.
[2] But Nadab and Abi'hu died before their father, and had no children, so Elea'zar and Ith'amar became the priests.
[3] With the help of Zadok of the sons of Elea'zar, and Ahim'elech of the sons of Ith'amar, David organized them according to the appointed duties in their service.
[4] Since more chief men were found among the sons of Elea'zar than among the sons of Ith'amar, they organized them under sixteen heads of fathers' houses of the sons of Elea'zar, and eight of the sons of Ith'amar...
[7] The first lot fell to Jehoi'arib, the second to Jedai'ah...
[14] the fifteenth to Bilgah, the sixteenth to Immer...

There are different orderings which may point to some Editing.  The Hasmoneans are assigned to Jehoiarib and the position of "Johoiarib" in 1 Chronicles 24 may indicate that the Hasmoneans wanted to be in the Leading Position (Eisenman and Wise, Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered).  BTW, the sixteenth Group, "Immer", believes that the Hasmoneans came from them (Uzi Leibner, Settlements in Galilee...).  Excavations of the settlement of Jabnit and others show that this view is true.  There are real, in-your-hand artifacts attesting to the existence of these Groups in Galilee

It's tedious here, but the payoff should be worth it.

Immer is absolutely critical to understanding this.  They are the last of the House of Eleazar and they do have history behind them.  They were on Duty, after Bilgah, at the Passover of 4 BCE, where 3000 are murdered and Passover is cancelled.

Bilgah?  Oh...Yes:

"According to a Talmudic tradition preserved in "Halakot Gedolot" (ed. Hildesheimer, p. 631), Bilgah was assigned to the group which officiated on the second and sixth days of the Feast of Tabernacles. The priests, when entering upon their duties, received their share in the northern part of the Tabernacle, because this was near the seat of their activity. The section assigned to each division of the priesthood was furnished with an iron ring fastened to the floor, for the purpose of securing the animal designed for slaughter, and there were accordingly twenty-four openings in the wall where the knives used for slaughtering were kept. Bilgah alone received his share in the south, his ring being nailed down, and his wall-closet tightly sealed, as a punishment..." ( )

Can you see where this is going?  

"After me comes he who is mightier than I, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie.."
"After me comes a man who ranks before me, for he was before me".

After John, of Bilgah, comes Jesus, of Immer.

The problem: It would be SOOOOO easy if "thong" meant "The loop of the sandal, either around the big toe or around the toes.  PERFECT!

Only: when you go to the Greek Interlinears, you find the word is "straps", which gets translated into "Thong" or "Latchet".

Quoting the Younan Interlinear of the 2 passages:

"...and he preach-would-and say-behold-comes after me-one who is more powerful-than I- he [who]-not-am worthy-I-to stoop-[and] loosen-the straps-of his sandals"      
"...this is-he-who after me-will come -yet-before me-is-that <I>-not-am worthy-I-to loosen-the straps-of his sandals..."

Vic Alexander: "I am not even worthy of untying the belts of his sandals..."
Steve Caruso: "...The thong of whose sandals..."

There seems to be an intermediate step that is missing.  The Word Play on "Thong/Loop/Strap" seems very important - Or perhaps I am asking too much.

Thank you all,

The only thing that I see that is missing, is the correct and only true understanding of what John was telling people. It is all about The Messiah, and who He is. nothing at all to do about Immer.

Why do you have Immer on the brain so bad, Charles? I have noticed that you go about trying to tie everything into Immer, no matter how unrelated it might be. It's weird.

Thank you, Thirdwoe.

1. We've been around this one before so I don't know what else I can say.  You are a Believer and therefore anything I can offer in the way of argumentation will be met by a "Believer's Statement".  Probably a Correlative Statement on my part in return.  I respect you and your positions.  What else is there to say?

2.  Well, I feel obligated to say the following: The Question of "What John was telling the people" is exactly what is being questioned.  John is saying...No, he is Denying and Confessing that he, John, is NOT the Christ. Further, he is stating something in a puzzling, cryptic manner:

Someone is coming who is AFTER John and is yet BEFORE John.  There are lotsa' variations on what this could mean but there is an interesting variation of another Type.

3. Here is why I feel obligated to comment here.  I do not have Immer on the brain and it is not weird.  Before we go off looking up to the skies, maybe we should look to see if there is another, non-metaphysical explanation.  I believe that I have found another explanation.  It is not "...just Immer".  It is the Mishmarot Priesthood, the Hasmoneans and the List of the Settlements in Galilee*.  Immer believes, according to Piyyutim found in the Settlement Jabnit, that the Dynastic Hasmoneans came from them.

4.  There was a Passover that was cancelled in 4 BCE.  Which Mishmarot Groups were on Duty at that Passover?  That would be Bilgah and Immer.  1 Chronicles 24 tells of David choosing 24 Groups based on the Houses of Eleazar and Ithamar.  The Hasmoneans were assigned to the First Mishmarot Group Jehoiarib.  Now, of the 24 Groups, which Groups have Stories (Non-Lukan Stories) about them?

a. Johoiarib.  Jehoiarib was on Duty for both Destructions of the Temple (Ta'anit 29A).  This provides the Anchor Date for calculating Mishmarot Service Weeks.
b. Immer.  Immer was the sixteenth Group of Eleazar.  More of this later.
c. Bilgah.

John 1: [15] (John bore witness to him, and cried, "This was he of whom I said, `He who comes after me ranks before me, for he was before me.'")

Immer follows Bilgah but is ranked above Bilgah.

5. What is the Hebrew word for "Lamb"?: " אמּר "  What is the Hebrew word for the sixteenth Mishmarot Group "Immer"?: " אמּר ".  I am still waiting for someone to tell me that this could not be a word-play, that it is "mere coincidence".  Do they look identical to you?  Do you have knowledge that these words "Lamb" and "Immer" are not named by  אמּר ?  If so, however, then passages such as the following may point to something else:

Revelation 5: 6 (in part), 12 (RSV):

[6] And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain...
[12] saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!"

6. This is not an Obsession, any more than your belief is an obsession, or ideation or whatever.  I've followed a Trail for over a decade and I haven't had reason to drop it yet.  I still find puzzles and GJohn has many.  GJohn has puzzles that appear to have made it into the final version in spite of the Judaic Content, in spite of "Redactors".

Someone KNEW something

Not "weird" at all.

Best to you,


*BTW, this list is found in several different Settlements - real, in your hand Archaeological material.
Yes, Charles... it is very weird.

John was sent to testify concerning Christ and to point to Him, not "Immer" or a "Mishmarot Priesthood". If he were me, he would sternly rebuke you and maybe spank you with his leather belt. lol

Jesus was born in the flesh after John was by some 6 months, and they were commissioned by God the Father to their ministries some months apart, John starting 1st....yet, Jesus is the Eternal Word of God from all eternity, so He is was both Before, and After John, so to speak, both in His Ministry and His generation.

Not hard to understand.

Yes, I am a believer in Christ.


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