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The Messiah's Name
#76
Will,

It seems you have been infected by SNS..."Sacred Name Syndrome"...but the good news is, there's a cure for it!

And your name IS a misnomer...it's a shortened form of the name William. Now, make the same argument apply to your name, and see if it makes any sense at all...as you are trying to do with The Messiah's Name.

His name is awesome, in any language, and I have nothing but respect for all forms of it, and so should you. Just like you and I have respect for each other?s form of the longer name, i.e. William and Charles. Your Parents chose to give you the shorted form, while my Parents chose to give me the longer form...You can also call me Chas or Charley if you like, it won't bother me at all.

Jesus must have been called by at least two forms of His Name, The Hebrew and the Aramaic forms, which was the main languages in use at that time in Israel among the Jewish People. The Greek and Latin forms were most likely also heard by Him, from those who spoke those languages.

Will, you seem to think that Our Father gets upset if you don't use Hebrew terms when referring to Him or speaking with Him. If this is true, then He's upset all the time with millions of His Children who don't speak Hebrew, but use their own languages to speak with and refer to Him.

I'm part American Indian, for instance, and I have my Choctaw Bible here in front of me. The term for "God", is "Chittokaka" (Great/Strong One), and the Name for His Son, is "Chisas Kilaist", a transliteration of "Jesus Christ", YHWH is "Chihowa", a transliteration of Jehovah...and The Holy Spirit is called "Shilombish (Spirit) Holitopa (Holy)".

Are you prejudiced against those names/terms? I'm certainly not, nor any other language forms.

And I thought this is rather odd, Will...but the name in Choctaw for "Will", your name, is "Chuk". <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

Shlama/Achukma,
Chuck


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#77
Thirdwoe Wrote:Will, ... And your name IS a misnomer...it's a shortened form of the name William. Now, make the same argument apply to your name, and see if it makes any sense at all...as you are trying to do with The Messiah's Name.
Chuck, you just do not seem to get it do you? Well I'll try and say it real slow for you OK.

William is the original name, of what origin I do not know, and Will is a short form thereof - as Yah is for YHWH. Yah is not a transliteration of YHWH it is a shortened form of the Divine Name.

OK, now this is where I seem to lose you, I was not named William. And anyone named William was not name Will. To call me William would be misnomering me, and to call someone whom was named William Will would be misnomering them.

Same goes for Yehoshua, Yeshua, Iesus (pronounced: yay-SOOCE), Jesus (pronounced: JEE-zuhs), and Jesus (pronounced: hay-SOOCE).[can you see where the Spanish speaking people realized that the English form was to have the last syllable pronounced like the Greek and made the correction in their pronunciation of this name, yet they messed up the first syllable with the H sound. They should of realized at the same time that the J was to make the sound of Y and therefore used what ever letter they use for the Y sound. What a mess]. But while these are poor transliteration of the original Hebrew name of Yehoshua they are just that poor transliterations of the original Hebrew name. They are not misnomers until they are used for the wrong people. So if one was named with one of these poor transliterations then that is not misnomering them. To misnomer them you would either need to further hack up the name or even go back and try to use the original (correct) form of the name on them. So to call someone named Jesus (pronounced: hay-SOOCE) Jesus(pronounced: JEE-zuhs) would be misnomering them even though one used the seemingly correct spelling. It would not be proper to call someone named Jesus(pronounced: JEE-zuhs) Yehoshua (pronounced: Y'-ho-SHOO-ah), as that would be misnomering them. It is all about the pronunciation one's parents put on them, not what the name may have become or used to be.

A nomer is a specific phonetic sound set upon one as a specific appellation. It is disrespectful to misnomer others unless they ask that you do so. Let's just for an example here say that The Anointed One's Name was actually Yeshua (a poor Aramaic transliteration of the Hebrew Name Yehoshua, or posibly a shortenen form at best) - then it would be misnomering Him to call him by the original form of the name as that would not have been the appellation YHWH put on Him.

So now back to my name it is not nor was ever William, yet as a shorter form it retain the phonetics. But I have heard that Germans would tend to pronounce the W as a V, in which then if they did so they would be misnomering me (ignorantly at best). In which case I would not be upset with them but if they where going to be around much I would tell them that Vill is not my name and that they are misnomering me. I would try as gently as I know how to correct them. And if they tried but could not pronounce my name correctly I would be alright with them doing so, but not if they had the attitude that they could care less and was going to just call me Vill anyway. Such would be disrespectful of me and my parents whom named me. But by the same means it would be misnomering a German that was named Vill to call the Will. Chuck, if you can not see that then we be wasting our time and clogging up this thread going round and round, back and forth, up and down a rabbit trail.


Thirdwoe Wrote:His name is awesome, in any language, ... ... ...
Yes His Name is awesome no matter what language one would speak it in, and just in case you still do not get it I will reiterate that it will sound exactly the same when done properly no matter what language one would speak it in! I agree that the other forms and or poor transliterations sound differently but at the same time they are not The Anointed One's Appellation.


Thirdwoe Wrote:and I have nothing but respect for all forms of it, and so should you. Just like you and I have respect for each other?s form of the longer name, ... ... ....
I have no problem with calling people by their appellation, and if that was a poorly done transliteration then so be it. But I will not use such on one whom's name is another so-called form of the same name as that would be misnomering them. Anyone that was named Jesus (pronounced: JEE-zuhs) that is what I call them, and anyone that was named Jesus (pronounced: hay-SOOCE) that is what I call them. I do not mismatch the so-called different forms of a name, and again I say I do so to be respectful unto them as not to hack their name up.


Thirdwoe Wrote:You can also call me Chas or Charley if you like, it won't bother me at all.
Again, just because you do not mind is not a righteous reason for you to use your sentiments as a righteous reason to misnomer others.


Thirdwoe Wrote:Jesus must have been called by at least two forms of His Name, The Hebrew and the Aramaic forms, which was the main languages in use at that time in Israel among the Jewish People. The Greek and Latin forms were most likely also heard by Him, from those who spoke those languages.
Ignorance is rampant throughout this earth, and because of such I agree that He most likely heard it all. But it must have been taught that we should respectfully use the correct form of His name as Celsus wrote (in 178AD) of the early Believers:
"They assume that by pronouncing the Name of their Teacher they are armored against the powers of the earth and air. And they are quite insistent on the efficacy of the Name as a means of protection: pronounce It improperly, they say, and it is ineffective. Greek and Latin will not do; it must be said in a barbarian tongue to work." Celsus on the True Doctrine, A Discourse Against the Christians, R. Joseph Hoffman (page118)
Now this is a comment made by a non-Believer so you can not say that believers thought just as he says (being he could easily be putting extra words in to they mouths, as you, Chuck, keep doing here with me), but it does show that they believed that pronouncing it correctly was a big deal, and that no one should use other forms of it as that is not proper etiquette.


Thirdwoe Wrote:Will, you seem to think that Our Father gets upset if you don't use Hebrew terms when referring to Him or speaking with Him. If this is true, then He's upset all the time with millions of His Children who don't speak Hebrew, but use their own languages to speak with and refer to Him.
I never said anything about having to speak Hebrew or that Hebrew was better than any other language. All I have tried to simply convey is if one's name was originally in one language then that is how one should pronounce it despite whether their language has a different for thereof, or even if their language has the original form of the name they should still pronounce someone's name as their parents proclaimed it to be. So no I do not think we have to speak Hebrew until we come to the names of Hebrew People that were actually named with a Hebrew name.


Thirdwoe Wrote:And I thought this is rather odd, Will...but the name in Choctaw for "Will", your name, is "Chuk".
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Sounds to me like that is a translation not a transliteration. And even though that is the Choctaw equivalent (definition wise) it is not proper to translate names so Choctaw speaking people should call me Will, and I would in return call some one that was named Chuk in Choctaw Chuk out of respect to them.


Anyway being this is (still) a rabbit trail, would it be alright with you, Chuck, if we get back on tract (whether we agree on misnomers or not) and to our best ability try to discuss the definition of The Anointed One's Name?
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#78
Thirdwoe, I just happened to catch somethings you said before that apparently I missed. I am slow in that way at times. Anyway I thought it important to go back and address these.
Thirdwoe Wrote:By the way...You used it a bunch in that last post there, but it's a misnomer to call me "Chuck", as that is not the name I was given by my Parents at birth. But it's fine with me that you use that form of it...I know you are speaking to me and it represents who I am just fine, misnomer and all,
Charles I would apologize for having called you Chuck but that is what you keep using here on this site, so it was not my intention to be disrespectful unto you.


Thirdwoe Wrote:William. <!-- sWink --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /><!-- sWink -->
Being you should know by now that I see such as a sick sense of hummer and very disrespectful, I will be quite frank here only taking enough time to talk turkey.

{Proverbs 6:12-13}
A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth.
He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers;

{Proverbs 10:10}
He that winketh with the eye causeth sorrow: but a prating fool shall fall.

{Job 15:2-16}
Should a wise man utter vain knowledge, and fill his belly with the east wind?
Should he reason with unprofitable talk? or with speeches wherewith he can do no good?
Yea, thou castest off fear, and restrainest prayer before Elohim.
For thy mouth uttereth thine iniquity, and thou choosest the tongue of the crafty.
Thine own mouth condemneth thee, and not I: yea, thine own lips testify against thee.
Art thou the first man that was born? or wast thou made before the hills?
Hast thou heard the secret of Elohim? and dost thou restrain wisdom to thyself?
What knowest thou, that we know not? what understandest thou, which is not in us?
With us are both the grayheaded and very aged men, much elder than thy father.
Are the consolations of Elohim small with thee? is there any secret thing with thee?
Why doth thine heart carry thee away? and what do thy eyes wink at,
That thou turnest thy spirit against Elohim, and lettest such words go out of thy mouth?
What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.
How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?

{Psalm 35:19}
Let not them that are mine enemies wrongfully rejoice over me: neither let them wink with the eye that hate me without a cause.

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#79
The original question was answered in the 1st page of this thread, Will....almost 10 years ago.

Quote:by Rob Vanhoff ? Fri Sep 19, 2003 7:50 am

Shlama, Gentile,

Perhaps your question can be answered by useing the Tenakh alone. Here is a part of a tract I worte a few years ago - I hope it is helpful! (Keep in mind that portions of Daniel, Ezra, NehemYah, and YirmiYahu (Jeremiah) are written in Aramaic!)

"Shemot (Exodus) 33:11 And Yahweh spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Yehoshua ben Nun (Joshua the son of Nun), a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

NeHEM-Yah 8:17 And all the congregation of them that were come again out of the captivity made succot, and dwelt under the succot: for since the days of Yeshua ben Nun (Jeshua the son of Nun) unto that day had not the children of Israel done so. And there was very great gladness.

Ezra 3:2 Then stood up Jeshua (Aramaic=Yeshua)the son of Jozadak, and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and his brethren, and builded the altar of the Elohim of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as it is written in the Torah of Moses the man of Elohim.

ZecharYahu 6:11-13 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua (Hebrew=Yehoshua) the son of Josedech, the Cohen haGadol; And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh Yahweh Tzeba'oth, saying, Behold the man whose name is Tzemach (BRANCH); and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of Yahweh: Even he shall build the temple of Yahweh; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a Cohen upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Again, it is clearly shown in Scripture that the name found in the Hebrew ZecharYahu, Yehoshua, is equivalent to that of the Aramaic name found in Ezra, Yeshua! These two verses are also describing the same person! "

There you have it, Gentile: The Aramaic portions of Tenakh refer to those called Yehoshua in Hebrew as Yeshua. We have two witnesses for this contraction - Yeshua son of Nun and Yeshua son of Yehotzedeq. So, from Tanakh alone we can show without a doubt that the Aramaic Yeshua is a biblically acceptable contraction of the Hebrew name Yehoshua, and thence carries the same meaning.

Shlama w'taybutha
Rob


There you have it, Will:

And don't be afraid to use the <!-- sWink --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /><!-- sWink --> Our Creator won't get upset with you. <!-- sConfusedly: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/sly.gif" alt="Confusedly:" title="Sly" /><!-- sConfusedly: -->

Achukma,
Charles

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