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Col 2:13 - and he has forgiven you all your sins ... or us ?
Would faithful (word/grammar intact) translation be here "you all your sins" or "us all our sins" ?

Just trying to get my head around how does "ln" (lan) work in this phrase ... Etheridge, Murdock translate as "us", Lamsa, KJV, Greek prefer "you". It is "us", right?

W'shwak lan culhuwn khtahain.- Aramaic Text of Passage

"Lan" literally means "to us". So Murdock and Etheridge are correct. Lamsa sometimes goes with the Greek and is not as faithful as Murdock or Etheridge. Usually if a passage is rendered differently by Lamsa and Etheridge/Murdock, I would go with the latter two.
EDIT: /h?min/ is the word in question.

ScorpioSniper2 is correct that it's literally "to us" or "unto us," but for all intents and purposes, just think of /lan/ as "us" (since the personal pronoun is seldom used as an object, where le- + pronominal suffixes are).

Thank you both for replying. I was wondering exactly the same, if any Greek MSS have "us" here. Several modern translation do however translate "us" in this verse, so they must have the idea from somewhere, I guess (well it makes more general sense to be honest, as then Paulos and his companions writing the letter are also included in the forgiveness, and not only the addressees, "us" meaning "all", and not only the "you"), following that, for diligent, a suggestion check Old Latin and all MSS (I'm now away from my NA so will do that later).
I find this grammatical difference interesting, in my opinion it is more natural for a translator to follow this you,you,you pattern (i.e. Aramaic--> Greek) and that way make a mistake of putting "you" instead of "us" (it would be applying corrective thinking, subconscious possibly), rather than the other way round (this way correction on a higher level of thinking). Surely someone can come up with an easy explanation of the difference between Greek and Aramaic of this little difference.
With peace, as always, Jerzy
In the Greek version at the end of the verse in question, it reads thus: "charisamenos hemin panta ta paraptomata". Sorry, I can't seem to get the Greek script to post here.

This literally in English is: "having forgiven us all the transgressions" If you notice, this is when the "you" "hymas" and "your" "hymon" in the previous part of the verse changes to "us" "hemin" in the Greek version, which at that point the "us" continues on through the next verse, being part of the previous thought line.

There is no "your" in the verse in question in the Greek text, just this, in English translation: "having forgiven us all the transgressions" or simply "having forgiven us all transgressions. The English translator of the Greek text chooses what to put there, either "our" or "your", but, really there is no Greek word to translate there, and can be left out and still make sense in English. It's best to leave it out in this case.

Also, if you take a look at a number of other English translations of the last part of the verse in question, you will see that they go with "us", which is the proper translation of Greek word "hemin".

New International Version
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

English Standard Version
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

New American Standard Bible
When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

Again, the "your" is not in the Greek text, and these translations of the Greek version have the word "us" translated correctly, whereas the KJV has "you", and leaves out the "your", which isn't present in the Greek text.

So, if you look closely, the Aramaic and the Greek texts are actually in agreement here. The discrepancy being only in some English translations.

Also, look at the next verse to see that the "us" continues in the thought line of the continuing statement, both in the Greek and Aramaic texts. In this example we see that Lamsa's translation which sticks here with the KJV's translation of the Greek, repeats the wrong translation of "you", and even makes it worse by adding the word "your".

Ok, maybe I made an unnecessary excursion into general comments on translations, I was assuming Steve's comment was correct about the Greek side and throwing my translators thoughts ... Let me narrow it all down now and summarize .

There is just one word in question here in this verse: "us" ("lan" in Aramaic in Peshitta), Aramaic clear, no problem. Greek and English is.

I'm confused by the difference between the last poster and Steve. One of you says that on the Greek side there is hymin which means "you" and the other says that there is hemin which means "us". I would like to close it. What is the Greek pronoun there ?

Aramaic Wrote:English translations of the last part of the verse in question, you will see that they go with "us", which is the proper translation of Greek word "hemin".
Assuming that something like this <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href=""> ... 5Bpron.pdf</a><!-- m --> is the right table , we have one letter then ... is it eta in the Greek MSSs or y/upsilon ?

In an electronic text of Textus Receptus I have on my laptop, it shows me both pronouns, in brackets, so I think there must be different versions on the Greek side, and I had just a quick look online at Sinaiticus and is seems to be "us" there (hemi, but strangely written, and what is that there ...both ?)
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href=""></a><!-- m --> Query&book=43&chapter=2&lid=en&side=r&verse=13&zoomSlider=0

Time to finish for me with this one, I will let others have fun with all the Greek MSS and list variants (are there any?). Thanks again for joining the pursuit of one Greek letter.

I simply read the pronoun incorrectly, while distracted by a fussy infant in my lap. /h?min/ is correct. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

Carry on.

Jerzy, sometimes these little things can be quite interesting.

Quote:In an electronic text of Textus Receptus I have on my laptop, it shows me both pronouns, in brackets, so I think there must be different versions on the Greek side,..

It may not be a matter of showing Greek variants there, but rather the two versions of the "TR". For instance, if you are looking at Scrivener's Textus Receptus, it is not the real "TR", as it is really an edited text created in the latter 1800s, which takes the KJVs translation reading choices, translates them into Greek, and thus conforms the actual Greek "TR" text into a new edited hybrid "TR"/"KJV" Greek text, which never existed before, and doesn't always match either exactly.

There are some readings in the KJV which come in from other sources, such as the Latin Vulgate text, so, it can be confusing when looking at Scrivener's edited Greek text, as in some places there are no Greek texts which reads its way, because, the KJV isn't just a translation of the Greek text, as its translators have said in their introduction in the original 1611 edition, but at times incorporates other non-Greek sources into its text, where they felt the reading was right. Most always it is from the original form of the "TR" Greek, but not always.

If you want to read what is in the real "TR", which was in existence before the KJV came into existence, you need to look at the 1550 Stephanus Textus Receptus. In this verse the real "TR" reads "Hemin" "us", Scrivener's edited "TR" has translated the KJV reading in its edited Greek text and has "Hymin" "you".

So, where did the KJV get "you" from? It seems it was taken from the Latin text, namely the Latin Vulgate...which reads "donans vobis omnia delicta" "forgiving you all offences"

Now, where did that reading come from? Was it from a Greek text that was used for the Vulgate's translation, or was it mistranslated when the Latin Vulgate was being made? It wouldn't seem so.

If not from the Greek text, it seems to have been previously part of the old Latin text, if what we read in this English translation from the early Latin Church father, Tertullian is accurate, where he quotes the passage in one of his books published in about the year 208 A.D.

I don't have a copy of the Latin text to confirm this English translation, but, it reads thus:

Quote:The apostle indeed teaches, in his Epistle to the Colossians, that we were once dead, alienated, and enemies to the Lord in our minds, whilst we were living in wicked works; that we were then buried with Christ in baptism, and also raised again with Him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised Him from the dead. ?And you, (adds he), when ye were dead in sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath He quickened together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses.?

Tertullian: "On the Resurrection of the Flesh" Chapter 23, as translated by Dr. Holmes, published in The Anti-Nicene Fathers Vol 3.

There is another Latin text witness, which has the "you" and even "your" wording, again, if the English translation is accurate, found quoted in the Latin Church father, Saint Hilary of Poitiers :

Quote:Then is completed the entire mystery of the assumed manhood, "And you being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, you I say, did He quicken together with Him, having forgiven you all your trespasses, blotting out the bond written in ordinances, that was against us, which was contrary to us; and He hath taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross, and having put off from Himself His flesh, He hath made a shew of powers, triumphing over them in Himself."

Ante Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers, Hilary of Poitiers: De Trinitate or On the Trinity, Book 9-section 10

The plot thickens...

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