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Um....are we sure Maryah always = LORD?
#31
I think Ivan is speaking of the occurrences where "The Messenger of MarYa" appears unto Men from time to time, such as unto Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Gideon and Manoah...and in every place, it seems that it?s MarYa Himself, not just one of His regular Malake/Messengers, such as Gabriel.

Many through the centuries have noticed this, and have taught that these special appearances to certain Men, are actually the pre-incarnate Miltha/Word, who would later come to be manifested in humanity as The Messiah. I found this quik study on it at the link below, which will give something to chew on for starters.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2012/01/13/feedback-old-testament-theophanies">http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... heophanies</a><!-- m -->

Here is the passage, which I think is the closest thing in Scripture where a Messenger of MarYa might be referred to as MarYa Himself, if the Hebrew and Aramaic text are reliable here. The Dead Sea Scrolls does not preserve the passage, unfortunately.

Judges 6: 11-14
11 Now, The Messenger of MarYa came and sat under the Terebinth at Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while his son Gideon was beating out wheat in the winepress to hide it from the Midianites.
12 And The Messenger of MarYa appeared unto him and said unto him, ?MarYa is with you, O mighty man of valor.?
13 And Gideon said unto him, ?Please, my Master (Mari), if MarYa is with us, why then has all this happened unto us? And where are all his wonderful deeds that our fathers recounted unto us, saying, ?Did not MarYa bring us up from Egypt?? But now, MarYa has forsaken us and given us into the hand of Midian.?
14 And MarYa turned unto him and said, ?Go in this might of yours and save Israel from the hand of Midian; do not I send you??

So, here, The Messenger of MarYa seems to be revealed to be MarYa Himself...see verse 14. This is the reading of the Aramaic text from the 7th century copy we have today. The Hebrew Masoretic text copy we have today reads "YHWH", though The Greek Septuagint text we have today reads "The Messenger of Kyrios".
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#32
We better stick to originals for all translations cannot be perfect but
bias is a usual thing.
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Peshitta text. Original. No doubts.
Clearly visible that the messenger is called Marya too.
So, at least Marya can be understood as deity.
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#33
Dr. George Lamsa's English Peshitta translation:
John 1:17 - For the law was given by Moses; but truth and grace came into being by Jesus Christ.
Not looks to me that Jesus Christ was the Angel of YHWH giving the law to the Israelites as said in
Dr. George Lamsa's English Peshitta translation:
Acts 7:38 - It was he who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him and to our fathers in Mount Sinai: He is the one who received the living words to give to us.
--------------------------------------
Hebrews 1:13 - For to which of the angels has he at any time said, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool under your feet?
Hebrews 1:14 - Are they not all spirits of ministration, who are sent to minister on account of them that are to inherit life?
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#34
Num. 22:22 Then God's anger was aroused because he went, and the Angel of the LORD took His stand in the way as an adversary against him.
At <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.peshitta.org/pdf/ot/Numbers.pdf">http://www.peshitta.org/pdf/ot/Numbers.pdf</a><!-- m -->
is visible that adversary is called 'satan', Aram. 'satana'.
Still he is minister of YHWH.

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Judges 6:21
And the Angel of the LORD departed out of his sight. 22 Now Gideon perceived that He was the Angel of the LORD. So Gideon said, "Alas, O Lord GOD! For I have seen the Angel of the LORD face to face." 23 Then the LORD said to him, "Peace be with you... ."
-----------------------------
Exodus 33:20 But He said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live."
21 And the LORD said, "Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock...
23 "Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen."
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#35
IPOstapyuk Wrote:Num. 22:22 Then God's anger was aroused because he went, and the Angel of the LORD took His stand in the way as an adversary against him.
At <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.peshitta.org/pdf/ot/Numbers.pdf">http://www.peshitta.org/pdf/ot/Numbers.pdf</a><!-- m -->
is visible that adversary is called 'satan', Aram. 'satana'.
Still he is minister of YHWH.

---------------------
Judges 6:21
And the Angel of the LORD departed out of his sight. 22 Now Gideon perceived that He was the Angel of the LORD. So Gideon said, "Alas, O Lord GOD! For I have seen the Angel of the LORD face to face." 23 Then the LORD said to him, "Peace be with you... ."
-----------------------------
Exodus 33:20 But He said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live."
21 And the LORD said, "Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock...
23 "Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen."

You cannot see the LORD as a spiritual being and live (as flesh and blood).
But you can see the LORD when manifest as a human.
Here you can see this nearly explicitly confirmed.
Exodus 24:10,11
They saw the God of Isra?l but they did not die. They were eating together!

But the full holiness and light, is unseeable for us.
John 1:18 confirms this as well. We cannot see God but the manifestation of God, the Son, Yeshu is seen.

1 Tim 6:16
"he who only is incorruptible, and (who) dwelleth in light which no man can approach; whom no man of men hath seen, nor is able to see: to him be honour and power for ever and ever. Amen. "
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#36
So, you believe that Exodus 33:20 deity
is the one that described in

1 Tim 6:16
"he who only is incorruptible, and (who) dwelleth in light which no man can approach; whom no man of men hath seen, nor is able to see: to him be honour and power for ever and ever. Amen. "
?
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#37
So, you believe that Exodus 33:20 deity
is the one that described in

1 Tim 6:16
"he who only is incorruptible, and (who) dwelleth in light which no man can approach; whom no man of men hath seen, nor is able to see: to him be honour and power for ever and ever. Amen. "
?
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#38
This seems to be a contradiction, where it says that no man has seen Alaha, but some have seen him!

But, was it The Father Himself, who is God, or The Word, who is also God that they have seen?

I believe it was The Word, whom The Father has always chosen to reveal Himself in and through, and The Word, who is both with and is, God (John 1:1) manifested in the flesh in The Messiah.

The Messiah existed before Abraham, though, as He said, and it was as The Word, pre-incarnate, who is also God, and who, as The Messenger/Word of MarYa/Alaha", He has always revealed The Father unto mankind, who can't be seen by them in their non-glorifed state.

Let's consider John 1:18 in the Aramaic text, with some interpretation in the (brackets).

"Alaha (the Father), no man has ever seen. The only Alaha (The Word/Messiah), He who is in the bosom of The Father; He declares."

Makes sense to me.

.
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#39
Shlama,


just some thoughts to add to a great discussion: contradictions are perceived by our limited comprehension only; rather, the Word is truth (Messiah's says it, the psalmists say it, etc.). when we see what appears to be a contradiction, we should immediately pray for discernment. wait on His timing for the answers. who knows if you'll get one right away, but trust the answer will come. it is a spiritual book, and must be approached with spiritually-tuned minds. you know Him - so trust He will lead His people as He sees fit.

also, when it comes to this subject, a helpful aide to consider are the Aramaic Targums that mention the "Memra" of Alaha, where the more anthropomorphic verses of Alaha become the "Memra" / "Word" of Alaha at work, which is intriguingly distinct, yet united. worthy to look at for a Semitic viewpoint of millennia gone by. you can search them out yourself, or here's a compilation of some interesting ones, if you're lazy:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://oneinmessiah.net/TargumMemraTheWordOfGod.htm">http://oneinmessiah.net/TargumMemraTheWordOfGod.htm</a><!-- m -->

i just googled the term for a quick random example, so don't think what the site teaches reflects me, please! <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
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#40
IPOstapyuk Wrote:So, you believe that Exodus 33:20 deity
is the one that described in

1 Tim 6:16
"he who only is incorruptible, and (who) dwelleth in light which no man can approach; whom no man of men hath seen, nor is able to see: to him be honour and power for ever and ever. Amen. "
?

YEs, the Lord of Isra?l, Always has been YHWH, the Messiah, the Word, the Memra/Meltha. This was Jesus, the Son.
They did not die because he appeared to them, just as he appeared to Apostle Tuma. They could touch his body and see the wounds, and later on, he appeared at the beach when the Apostles were fishing and caught 153 fishes. THey had some food and the Lord disappeared again.

This is in line with Exodus 33:20.
They were surprised that they did not die. But when the Lord would appear as HE IS as a spirit, we could not survive that amount of light, I suppose.

This also is in line with prophet Mushe (Moses). When he talked to the Israelites, his face was shining and they requested that he covered his face. Men, cannot bear to see divine light, however, the light from Mushe, was not as full as the light which came from Yeshu in Mark 9:3 for instance.

So I do not understand there is discrepancy at this subject in the Bible.
2 Cor 3:18.
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#41
It's not a contradiction, once we understand that The Messiah is God/YHWH manifested to humanity, yet is distinct from The Father, as the Scriptures teach.
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