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The Torah
#16
Akhi Ivan, I have added The Mingana Ms. witness for those variants. The link to the thread where they are posted is below.

<!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3224">viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3224</a><!-- l -->

And David is certainly not right when he claims that the Western Peshitto version, which he translated, is the Original Aramaic form of the New Testament, and hasn't been altered. It indeed has been. And as of today, the World has never seen a true Aramaic Eastern Peshitta New Testament translated into the English Language.
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#17
I think Stephen will take it seriously for the Khaboris to be filled with the eastern text of Mingana e.g.
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#18
We could ask him about it. Can this be done Akhi Steven? Change the UBS parts out with the readings of The Mingana Ms. where the Khabouris is unreadable? It looks to be a true Eastern Peshitta Ms.

It's neat that the Mingana Ms. only has one place (Matt 6:32) that differs in those 21 places on the list that have been found so far.

I'm going through the 1st Letter to the Corinthians now, word by word...then on to Romans, Acts, and The Four Gospels, having completed the other books...and will update the list if I find any other variants in the rest.

Blessings,
Chuck
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#19
From what I knew is the Peshitta/Peshitto is one version with something
one word or two words difference and then a little bit of mechanical mistakes
by copyist that does not matter.
Two important people on this forum told me.
And I lived with this idea for years until I personally checked word for word about
10-15 pages and I saw many variations, so this myth was gone.
As I see Greeks manuscripts have variations and Aramaic ones too.
Chuck, you are doing very important work. God bless you.
I believe those who look for they will find.
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#20
I just want to know what it says and doesn't say. I also have been working on a list of all the variants that are in the Greek text families and checking those against the Peshitta/Peshitto text...so far, from the Gospels to the book of Galatians the Peshitta agrees with the Byzantine text about 85% of the time, I knew this was so from others statements, but wanted to see which places for myself, as I can't find a list anywhere.

As I noticed, the Eastern Aramaic text seems not to be from any of the Greek text families, as it has numerous agreements with each of them, the Byzantine, Egyptian, and Western text being the three main ones. The Eastern Peshitta text is static for the most part in its hundreds of Ms., while the Greek Ms. texts are found to be fluid, with what looks to be revisions after revisions going on.

If the Eastern Peshitta text was a translation of the Greek text, (I don't believe so) it would have had to either be translated from at least 3 conflicting Greek Ms., or it was translated into Aramaic from the 1st copies in Apostolic times, and stayed the same since then, while the Greek copies were altered here and there and developed families of like texts through the centuries.

The Greeks kept revising their texts, as the English keep revising their translations...all the while The Eastern Peshitta text has remained the same for all this time...not counting the Western revision of it, which is not actually The Peshitta. Just like when they revised the King James Version text, they called it "the revised version", then later some thought to update the English and change a few things around, and they called it The New King James Version.

Shlama,
Chuck
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#21
Thirdwoe wrote:
Quote:The Eastern Peshitta text is static for the most part in its hundreds of Ms., while the Greek Ms. texts are found to be fluid, with what looks to be revisions after revisions going on.
I heard about hundreds of eastern Peshitta manuscripts but it looks to me a myth.
As much as I know they are :
1. Khaboris
2. Mingana 148
3. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://dukhrana.com/ms/">http://dukhrana.com/ms/</a><!-- m --> which are about 40 pages of fragments
4. Younan codex (hidden from people)
no other manuscripts, its a misleading myth.
We have to check #3 also but it is not clear if they are eastern or western type.

So far I know there is 1 word difference between Mingana 148 and eastern text (Khaboris or so).
If to check the above manuscripts, we might find a lot of variations too.
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#22
It's not a myth, Ivan...there just has been very little work on getting these Manuscripts looked at and made available online. The world is in a Greek trance. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

Look at this list for instance, where they show some of the hundreds that are housed in the British Museum
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_Syriac_New_Testament_manuscripts">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_th ... anuscripts</a><!-- m -->

There are hundreds of copies, some complete and most incomplete NT texts...and I think that we would find that most are of the Western variety...not the Eastern Peshitta, like the Khabouris, Yonan, and Mingana.

The Way International, which came out with the 1st Aramaic NT Interlinear, back in the 1980s, and which Janet Magiera had part in and is the basis of her translation, used 4 of the oldest of these Aramaic NT's (5th-6th century) on the list, and I have checked some of their readings, and they show that they are about half times Eastern and half times Western in their variant readings on that list of 21 places where the Khabouris and the UBS differ...so there was revision going on with these early copies, that were produced in the lands west of the Euphrates, where Greek had it's influence.

Also, the UBS text is a composite text, made/edited from about 70-80 Aramaic Manuscripts in the early 1900s...mostly from that collection.

Shlama,
Chuck
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#23
IPOstapyuk Wrote:From what I knew is the Peshitta/Peshitto is one version with something
one word or two words difference and then a little bit of mechanical mistakes
by copyist that does not matter.
Two important people on this forum told me.
And I lived with this idea for years until I personally checked word for word about
10-15 pages and I saw many variations, so this myth was gone.
As I see Greeks manuscripts have variations and Aramaic ones too.
Chuck, you are doing very important work. God bless you.
I believe those who look for they will find.

Probably this would end up in total apathy, because lots of people in the past, had the briljant idea to translate the purest NT ever, using the best Manuscripts there are. They ended up finding 400.000 variations in Greek MSS.
Now, for Aramaic, there are a lot less manuscripts, but if you combine this, with Latin for which exist 10,000 copies/fragments, and for Greek nearly 6,000 do not forget, Coptic and Armenian.

The most simple is to choose one or two manuscripts, and that's it. Anyway, the Gospel is clear and bright enough for anybody, even in Greek.
Do not forget that tavarish!
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#24
Shlama Akhi Ivan,

You may want to add this manuscript to your list:

Houghton MS Syriac 4 dated 1199 AD.

Acts 20:28 and Hebrews 2:9 reads exactly like Khaburis and Mingana 148.

There are marginal notes in a western script (serta) but these were added by a later hand.

IPOstapyuk Wrote:I heard about hundreds of eastern Peshitta manuscripts but it looks to me a myth.
As much as I know they are :
1. Khaboris
2. Mingana 148
3. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://dukhrana.com/ms/">http://dukhrana.com/ms/</a><!-- m --> which are about 40 pages of fragments
4. Younan codex (hidden from people)
no other manuscripts, its a misleading myth.
We have to check #3 also but it is not clear if they are eastern or western type.

So far I know there is 1 word difference between Mingana 148 and eastern text (Khaboris or so).
If to check the above manuscripts, we might find a lot of variations too.
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#25
Phil wrote
Quote:You may want to add this manuscript to your list:

Houghton MS Syriac 4 dated 1199 AD.
Halleluia.
Its like Khaboris.
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#26
AWESOME!

Phil and Ivan...and Shamasha Paul...that Manuscript Houghton MS Syriac 4, is none other than the one given to the English Missionary Dr. Grant, who went among the Assyrian's in the mid 1800s, who spoke to the leaders of The Church of the East, who gave him that copy of their NT. You don't get anymore Eastern Peshitta than this!

And, though it has some damage here and there, it looks to be all there? A very rare example of a complete Eastern Aramaic Peshitta Manuscript.

And to make it even better...you can both view it online, OR get your very own copy in PDF for FREE... I just did so, it was just one click and it was sent directly to my email box. Now I/we can print it out if I/we want to.

Thank you Akhi Phil for sharing that link...I might not have seen it otherwise.

Blessings,
Chuck
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