12-05-2012, 01:31 AM
Thirdwoe wrote:
"Also you seem to be very confused about a number of things, where you mix up the narratives of secular historians with The Holy Scriptures, unless I read you wrong there, and if not, please tell us that you are not planning on creating a new version of The New Testament, with these wrong applications and wrong interpretations."
I'm not planning on creating a new version of the NT, with these wrong applications and wrong interpretations.
The shorter short version: Years ago, I re-read Mark, especially the early chapters. Something - some association - connected in my mind. Something about the "Man with the Withered Hand":
"Is it lawful on the sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?"
Now if the story is as it is written, everything makes sense right up to the last phrase, "...to save life or to kill."
What does healing a man with a withered hand have to do with saving life or killing?
Before you answer, step back for a moment. Your answer will probably be a statement of context, possibly stating that those who are trying to trick Jesus are trying to catch him in an awkward response so that they can deliver him to the authorities to be killed.
Am I allowed that same interpretation of meaning?
Perhaps you will state that it is not interpretation, the meaning is clear.
"Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place. "
How long is a generation? Clearly. Jesus says that THIS generation shall not pass till these things take place. If these are clear and distinct and you believe them, then you must believe that Titus was the Messiah. No more than 40 years later, Titus laid waste to the villages of Galilee, built up siege works against Jerusalem, destroyed the Temple and left no stone on top of another. IF you see these things THEN know that the Messiah is here. Titus is the only person who could fulfill those conditions.
Will you allow me at least the same possibility to see correctly that you have?
Let me continue in a much less argumentative manner, for I am NOT against you!
As I moved through the early chapters of Mark, I came to the 2 most important stories for me - "The Woman with the 12 Year Issue of Blood" and "Jairus' Daughter". The woman has been Ritually Unclean for 12 years. In Mark, the statement is quite touching:
" For she said, "If I touch even his garments, I shall be made well."
Jesus' response is critical to understanding what I see:
"And Jesus, perceiving in himself that power had gone forth from him, immediately turned about in the crowd, and said, "Who touched my garments?" "
And in the other Gospels it is "Who touched ME?"! (Also, see in Mark, "Are we to drown, FOR ALL YOU CARE?" In the other Gospels, it is "Teacher, we are DROWNING!") Something in the other Gospels has been hidden, something has been "smoothed over" to hide intentionality and meaning. If the story of the "Woman..." is about "Garments" then try to understand what I see. There is only one meaning for "Garments". This is a Story about the Priesthood. Right out of Leviticus.
I latched onto the "12 years" phrase in both "The Woman..." and "Jairus' Daughter" and, to shorten the story, began to see them as Symbolic Stories rather than Miracle Stories. "What happened 12 years prior to this?" What happened that would cause a Ritual Uncleanliness for the Priesthood? For 12 years? Then I found the Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE. At least 3000 people are killed in the Temple areas and Passover is cancelled. It is not just the Priesthood, it is the Nation itself.
Jesus heals a man with a withered hand. "What could this man not be able to do? WRITE!!! He is a Scribe and cannot write about what happened.
Jesus has a HISTORY. He knows those who are trying to kill him and they know him. Which makes Jairus' Daughter a Political Story.
[22] Then came one of the rulers of the synagogue, Ja'irus by name; and seeing him, he fell at his feet,
[23] and besought him, saying, "My little daughter is at the point of death. Come and lay your hands on her, so that she may be made well, and live."
...
[42] And immediately the girl got up and walked (she was twelve years of age), and they were immediately overcome with amazement.
Thirdwoe, believe me, I looked for contradictions, a reason to stop. I never found one. For years, I had no idea why "12 years" was important. However, one thing led to another and another and... I don't know how else to say it:
This is the Story of the Priests of the Service Group "Immer", the last of the contributions of Eleazar, found in 1 Chronicles 24, from the Johoiarib to Immer. The Story has been dismembered and rearranged for a different end.
There is an Aramaic Primacy in the New Testament, a Primacy of the Story of the House of Eleazar. "Who were they and what did they communicate?" You cannot find it "merely" by looking at the Greek view. To understand this idea is why I'm here.
I am not against you and I have the highest respect for your understanding. I do not wish to spread false ideas. Again: If this History has been intentionally lost and rewritten and yet might still be seen, would it be important to show that History? And if we could identify those who destroyed this History and see the Stories they wrote to replace what they tried to hide, would it be important?
Charles
"Also you seem to be very confused about a number of things, where you mix up the narratives of secular historians with The Holy Scriptures, unless I read you wrong there, and if not, please tell us that you are not planning on creating a new version of The New Testament, with these wrong applications and wrong interpretations."
I'm not planning on creating a new version of the NT, with these wrong applications and wrong interpretations.
The shorter short version: Years ago, I re-read Mark, especially the early chapters. Something - some association - connected in my mind. Something about the "Man with the Withered Hand":
"Is it lawful on the sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?"
Now if the story is as it is written, everything makes sense right up to the last phrase, "...to save life or to kill."
What does healing a man with a withered hand have to do with saving life or killing?
Before you answer, step back for a moment. Your answer will probably be a statement of context, possibly stating that those who are trying to trick Jesus are trying to catch him in an awkward response so that they can deliver him to the authorities to be killed.
Am I allowed that same interpretation of meaning?
Perhaps you will state that it is not interpretation, the meaning is clear.
"Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place. "
How long is a generation? Clearly. Jesus says that THIS generation shall not pass till these things take place. If these are clear and distinct and you believe them, then you must believe that Titus was the Messiah. No more than 40 years later, Titus laid waste to the villages of Galilee, built up siege works against Jerusalem, destroyed the Temple and left no stone on top of another. IF you see these things THEN know that the Messiah is here. Titus is the only person who could fulfill those conditions.
Will you allow me at least the same possibility to see correctly that you have?
Let me continue in a much less argumentative manner, for I am NOT against you!
As I moved through the early chapters of Mark, I came to the 2 most important stories for me - "The Woman with the 12 Year Issue of Blood" and "Jairus' Daughter". The woman has been Ritually Unclean for 12 years. In Mark, the statement is quite touching:
" For she said, "If I touch even his garments, I shall be made well."
Jesus' response is critical to understanding what I see:
"And Jesus, perceiving in himself that power had gone forth from him, immediately turned about in the crowd, and said, "Who touched my garments?" "
And in the other Gospels it is "Who touched ME?"! (Also, see in Mark, "Are we to drown, FOR ALL YOU CARE?" In the other Gospels, it is "Teacher, we are DROWNING!") Something in the other Gospels has been hidden, something has been "smoothed over" to hide intentionality and meaning. If the story of the "Woman..." is about "Garments" then try to understand what I see. There is only one meaning for "Garments". This is a Story about the Priesthood. Right out of Leviticus.
I latched onto the "12 years" phrase in both "The Woman..." and "Jairus' Daughter" and, to shorten the story, began to see them as Symbolic Stories rather than Miracle Stories. "What happened 12 years prior to this?" What happened that would cause a Ritual Uncleanliness for the Priesthood? For 12 years? Then I found the Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE. At least 3000 people are killed in the Temple areas and Passover is cancelled. It is not just the Priesthood, it is the Nation itself.
Jesus heals a man with a withered hand. "What could this man not be able to do? WRITE!!! He is a Scribe and cannot write about what happened.
Jesus has a HISTORY. He knows those who are trying to kill him and they know him. Which makes Jairus' Daughter a Political Story.
[22] Then came one of the rulers of the synagogue, Ja'irus by name; and seeing him, he fell at his feet,
[23] and besought him, saying, "My little daughter is at the point of death. Come and lay your hands on her, so that she may be made well, and live."
...
[42] And immediately the girl got up and walked (she was twelve years of age), and they were immediately overcome with amazement.
Thirdwoe, believe me, I looked for contradictions, a reason to stop. I never found one. For years, I had no idea why "12 years" was important. However, one thing led to another and another and... I don't know how else to say it:
This is the Story of the Priests of the Service Group "Immer", the last of the contributions of Eleazar, found in 1 Chronicles 24, from the Johoiarib to Immer. The Story has been dismembered and rearranged for a different end.
There is an Aramaic Primacy in the New Testament, a Primacy of the Story of the House of Eleazar. "Who were they and what did they communicate?" You cannot find it "merely" by looking at the Greek view. To understand this idea is why I'm here.
I am not against you and I have the highest respect for your understanding. I do not wish to spread false ideas. Again: If this History has been intentionally lost and rewritten and yet might still be seen, would it be important to show that History? And if we could identify those who destroyed this History and see the Stories they wrote to replace what they tried to hide, would it be important?
Charles