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The Lord's Prayer
#1
Having constructed the English translation of the Aramaic Lord's Prayer below, I have some questions If I may.

9 like-this therefore pray you: our-Father in-heaven, hallowed-be thy-name
10 come thy-kingdom, be-done thy-will as in-heaven so on-earth
11 give us the-bread of-our-need this-day
12 and-forgive us our-offences as also we have-forgiven those-who-have-offended-us
13 and-not bring-us into-trial but deliver-us from the-evil-one
for thine is the-kingdom and-the-power and-the-glory forever-and-ever

In verse 9, I've heard that "our-Father" might actually be simply "Father". Is this possible?

In verse 13, there is no "Amen". Why? Also, I've heard that "for thine is the-kingdom and-the-power and-the-glory forever-and-ever" was not original to the prayer, but rather added by a translator. Where is this confusion coming from and is there any credence to it being true?

I await your prayerful response.
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#2
Hi,

What you refer to is the Greek 'critical' edition, which is in fact the WestCott & Hort source, the minority text of the Greek which is heavily distorted when we would compare it to the Peshitta and the Greek majority text.

It certainly means 'our father' (abun = our fater) and the Greek text phrases were not edited by a scribe or a translator, just *removed* because of certain philosophical religious believes in Egypt.
The Peshitta and Majority text preserves the original.
About the 'amen', why it is not there, I don't know.

Regards
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#3
Thank you distazo,

our father = abun
their father = ?
my father = ?
your father = ?
his father = ?
Her father = ?
father = ?
Or, are they all simply contextual ? If contextual, might they also be perceptual, allowing a Spirit lead translation ?

Is the Peshitta the actual Aramaic in the Galilean dialect ?

The Amen at the end of MT 6:13 is missing in the Peshitta.org's English translation.

So, for thine is the-kingdom and-the-power and-the-glory forever-and-ever is actually found in the original Peshitta? If so, to edit it out might be a fatal act.


Awaiting your prayerful response.
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#4
bobcny Wrote:Thank you distazo,

our father = abun
their father = ?
my father = aby
your father = abukun
his father = ?
Her father = ?
father = ab
Or, are they all simply contextual ? If contextual, might they also be perceptual, allowing a Spirit lead translation ?

In semitic languages, and in Aramaic, inflections are explicit. Not contextual.
bobcny Wrote:Is the Peshitta the actual Aramaic in the Galilean dialect ?
It is the Syrian Armaic (western aramaic) dialect.
Paul (Turkey) and Luke (Syria) came from the regions where this dialect was used. There was also a Hebrew dialect, like Chaldean, Galilean and Judean (which was like Chaldean).
Greatings

bobcny Wrote:So, for thine is the-kingdom and-the-power and-the-glory forever-and-ever is actually found in the original Peshitta? If so, to edit it out might be a fatal act.
Awaiting your prayerful response.

It is not edited out. We don't know for sure if it was there, but because of the Armaic formula 'l' alam, almin, amen (for always and ever, amen) many translations have added it.
I don't think such an edit is fatal. THe spirit can give us understanding even when scribes made mistakes.
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#5
thus therefore pray you father heavens sanctify name
bring realm turn desire as heaven also earth
[ ? ] bread need today
forgiveness for debts as also we forgive debtors
proper bring trials but deliver assuredly from evil
because own is realm works glory world ages


I arrived at the above by using dukhrana.com and found it interesting that each line, except the 3rd(which starts with an undefined Aramaic word), all have 8 words. I love looking at scripture like this, as long as I don't hurt myself.

I'm looking for other resources that attempt to provide direct English translations for each word found in the Peshitta. Do you know of other, rigorous efforts?

The most accurate version hands down will continue the be that which is written on the fleshy tablets of our hearts by the Holy Spirit.



I await your prayerful response.
Reply
#6
bobcny Wrote:thus therefore pray you father heavens sanctify name
bring realm turn desire as heaven also earth
[ ? ] bread need today
forgiveness for debts as also we forgive debtors
proper bring trials but deliver assuredly from evil
because own is realm works glory world ages


I arrived at the above by using dukhrana.com and found it interesting that each line, except the 3rd(which starts with an undefined Aramaic word), all have 8 words. I love looking at scripture like this, as long as I don't hurt myself.

I'm looking for other resources that attempt to provide direct English translations for each word found in the Peshitta. Do you know of other, rigorous efforts?

The most accurate version hands down will continue the be that which is written on the fleshy tablets of our hearts by the Holy Spirit.



I await your prayerful response.

Hi,

I guess that you took first word' of the meaning in the column with english words for the ARamaric original. If you just take the first meaning, it would not always produce an idiomatic correct meaning.
Often nouns can mean idomatically different things. As in the case with inflections (our/his/her/my etc) this normally not the case.

From Abudar2000 I found his list of 'ab' father.
abu -> aba -> Father
abu (seems to be of Akadian Origin), but in Syriac we have the following words:

aba -> Father (emphatic state)
ab -> My Father
abu -> Father (the word which the following suffix attach to)
abukh -> your father (masculin singular)
abuh -> Her father
abuy -> His father
abun -> Our Father
abukhun -> your father (masculin plural)
abuhun -> Their father

For a good translations see here
<!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1659">viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1659</a><!-- l -->
As youi can see with those translations, they are on par with the KJV (for instance) and the word 'Amen' is colored red, as this is added (implied)

God bless you
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#7
Now that is marvelous and thank you very much. Have you seen Google's digitized versions of all the Dead Sea Scrolls? -> <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/">http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/</a><!-- m --> It's marvelous as well. What caught my attentions right off was how, though they were written before the Birth of Jesus Christ, The Great Isaiah Scroll, being the longest and part of the first 7 found, speaks Christian precepts starting with Chapter 1 verse 5. From there on it sounds like Jesus Christ is speaking.

The translation of the Lord's Prayer you pointed to looks to be translations into Aramaic, using the KJV as the source. Not starting with the Peshitta as the source to translate into English. Am I wrong?

I await your prayerful response.
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