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Dusk or Dawn
#1
:

I was reading Victor Alexander's translation work online the other day and came across this, where there is a huge contradiction in the translated verses...and I'm wondering how this could be justifed. I'm talking to Victor about this in email, but so far he maintains that the translation is accurate for each Aramaic word translated...but how could this be so, as it would totally make the NT cotradict itself in these parallel verses...???

Luke 24:1 "On Sunday, however, at dawn, while it was still dark, they came to the tomb and brought the spices that they had consecrated, and there came with them other women."
John 20:1 "But on Sunday, there came Mary Magdalene at dawn, while it was still dark, to the burial place."

Mathew 28:1 "Then in the evening of the week when Sunday was coming to an end, there came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, to see the tomb.
Mark 16:1-2 "1. And as the Sabbath ended, Mary Magdalene and Mary of James and Salome, bought spices to come and anoint him. At dusk, however, on Sunday, they came to the tombs, as the sun had set.

See what I mean? Something's fishy here.


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#2
Thirdwoe Wrote::

I was reading Victor Alexander's translation work online the other day and came across this, where there is a huge contradiction in the translated verses...and I'm wondering how this could be justifed. I'm talking to Victor about this in email, but so far he maintains that the translation is accurate for each Aramaic word translated...but how could this be so, as it would totally make the NT cotradict itself in these parallel verses...???

Luke 24:1 "On Sunday, however, at dawn, while it was still dark, they came to the tomb and brought the spices that they had consecrated, and there came with them other women."
John 20:1 "But on Sunday, there came Mary Magdalene at dawn, while it was still dark, to the burial place."

Mathew 28:1 "Then in the evening of the week when Sunday was coming to an end, there came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, to see the tomb.
Mark 16:1-2 "1. And as the Sabbath ended, Mary Magdalene and Mary of James and Salome, bought spices to come and anoint him. At dusk, however, on Sunday, they came to the tombs, as the sun had set.

See what I mean? Something's fishy here.


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Shlama Akhi Chuck:
The "evening of the week" is called havdallah by the lunar calendar, Saturday evening, during twilight ended the Shabbat. Some count three stars in the evening to divide the days. In Genesis the days are divided as evening first and then morning and this is how the Jews have always celebrated the end of Shabbat from the First of the week, which is Sunday.

"and there was evening and there was morning the First Day".

No Jews did any work till after Havdallah. Victor Alexander has confused the two calendars. The Lunar Calendar marks the festivals beginning and end, including the weekly Sabbaths. It's a simple error made by Western Christians. Just follow the Lunar Calendar, and you can't go wrong.

A brief chronology of the watches.
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Shlama,
Stephen
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#3
It's clear that the 4 verses he has translated don't agree, as 2 has the Women coming to the tomb at "dawn", Sunday morning, and the other 2 says they come at "dusk", Sunday evening.

Shlama,
Chuck
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#4
Thirdwoe Wrote:It's clear that the 4 verses he has translated don't agree, as 2 has the Women coming to the tomb at "dawn", Sunday morning, and the other 2 says they come at "dusk", Sunday evening.

Shlama,
Chuck

Shlama Akhi Chuck:
There are no other distictions between dusk and dawn than the "watches of the night". So theoretically we do not know precisely when the women went to the tomb, whether it be the first watch or the second watch of the night. The watches were divided into 3 hour intervals. The first being around 9:00 P.M. (dusk) the second watch being 12:00 midnight, the third watch being 3:00 A.M. and the fourth watch being 6:00 A.M. (dawn). Correct me if this is wrong or an oversight on my part.

Shlama,
Stephen
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#5
:

Yes...but he has it there in Matt 28:1 and Mark 16:1-2 that they came to the tomb when Sunday was coming to an end, at Dusk. But in Luke 24:1 and John 20:1 he has it that they came to the tomb at Dawn on Sunday morning when it was still dark out.

In Luke 24:13-29 it clearly says that it was Sunday during the day that 2 disciples were on the way to Emmaus, when the risen Messiah met them and walked & talked with them until it became dark that Sunday evening. And they had heard all about what the Women had reported earlier in the day, after they had come to the tomb and found it empty in the morning on that same Sunday.

Shlama,
Chuck
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#6
Shlama akhi,


unfortunately it looks like Mr. Alexander is a bit off here. the way he has rendered it does make it wrong.

i'd render the Aramaic as follows:

Matt:
Yet, at the evening of the Sabbath, at the twilight of the first of the week, while dark.....

Mark:
And when it was after the Sabbath....And at predawn, on the first of the week......

Luke:
Yet, at the first of the week, at predawn, while dark.....

John:
Yet, at the first of the week came Maryam Magdlata at early morning, while dark.....

each verse contains details that confirm the account as the same: it was AFTER the weekly Sabbath had closed (meaning sundown had occurred, ie, Saturday night), which technically makes it the first of the week, according to Scriptural reckoning of how the day is counted (from evening to morning). from the going down of the sun on Sabbath / Saturday, it was technically "predawn" / SHAPRA, ie, "early morning" / ZAPRA. any time in between the setting of the sun on Saturday to the dawn of the sun could technically be labeled "predawn," so the issue is just in how Mr. Alexander chose to render the Aramaic, which is, i believe, in error at this point. "twilight" in Matt shouldn't be taken as evening twilight, which is how he appears to be reading it.

those are my thoughts!


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
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#7
Thirdwoe Wrote::

I was reading Victor Alexander's translation work online the other day and came across this, where there is a huge contradiction in the translated verses...and I'm wondering how this could be justifed. I'm talking to Victor about this in email, but so far he maintains that the translation is accurate for each Aramaic word translated...but how could this be so, as it would totally make the NT cotradict itself in these parallel verses...???

Luke 24:1 "On Sunday, however, at dawn, while it was still dark, they came to the tomb and brought the spices that they had consecrated, and there came with them other women."
John 20:1 "But on Sunday, there came Mary Magdalene at dawn, while it was still dark, to the burial place."

Mathew 28:1 "Then in the evening of the week when Sunday was coming to an end, there came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, to see the tomb.
Mark 16:1-2 "1. And as the Sabbath ended, Mary Magdalene and Mary of James and Salome, bought spices to come and anoint him. At dusk, however, on Sunday, they came to the tombs, as the sun had set.

See what I mean? Something's fishy here...
Forgive me, but I've only recently discovered this issue of Aramaic translations being actively worked on. I was first looking at THE ARAMAIC ENGLISH NEW TESTAMENT (AENT), but I was lost when they wanted to add words to attend the flow of it's English translation. Personally, the additions seemed restrictive in a way that blocked a more plausible meaning.

What you have come across is a matter for a couple of debates. One surrounding the Luni-Solar Calendar and the other, more specifically, the transition of days. I'd like to mention that God created man fallible and is why fallible man is more comfortable with "fussy time". Yes, Yeshua said that the day(the working part of a full day) has 12 hours, but that's not to say that 24 hours doesn't make a full day, of which there are seven for the week. God created in the 12 hour working part of the day, then there was evening and morning to complete the full day. The transition of days(dawn), like the end of the 12 hour working part(twilight or dusk), as too, the appearance of the new moon, are areas of "fussy time" created for fallible man. The birds understand this and begin to chirp and sing while it's still dark to herald the start of the new day. Each day ends during this transition(dawn) as the new day prepares to begin. It is very possible, as I see it, for the procession to the empty tomb, to have arrived from some distance to the tomb before dusk to be close enough to allow for a short walk further while it was still dark, yet only moments before sunrise. As for the evening marking the end of a day, that would be perfectly understandable considering it is the working part of the day it is referring to. The arrival to the tomb occurs after having rested all night a little distance away, though from a much longer journey.

Awaiting your prayerful response.
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