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Matthew 1:18
#1
I am a believer for many years, but have a question very pressing upon me. I need some help with the text.

I am reading this text: Matthew 1:18 - NOW the nativity of Jeshua the Meshicha was thus: While Mariam his mother was betrothed to Jauseph, before they could be consociated, she was found to be with child from the Spirit of Holiness.

I have a problem with HaShem going upon some one else's wife and get her pregnant, when HaShem says do not mess with some one's else's wife. It is against Torah.

Is there another way to render this text? I know the Isaiah 9 argument. I know it is messianic, so I am not going there.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
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#2
emet Wrote:I am a believer for many years, but have a question very pressing upon me. I need some help with the text.

I am reading this text: Matthew 1:18 - NOW the nativity of Jeshua the Meshicha was thus: While Mariam his mother was betrothed to Jauseph, before they could be consociated, she was found to be with child from the Spirit of Holiness.

I have a problem with HaShem going upon some one else's wife and get her pregnant, when HaShem says do not mess with some one's else's wife. It is against Torah.

Is there another way to render this text? I know the Isaiah 9 argument. I know it is messianic, so I am not going there.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Shlama Akhi Emet:
The Holy Spirit is not a person,but "q'noma" of YHVH Elohim. Just as the Holy Spirit created woman from the man so the Holy Spirit came upon the woman which YHVH Elohim created came upon othe woman, as the prophet Isaiah foretold, and caused her to conceive. YHVH Elohim cannot commit adultery any more than He can lie or steal. Again we are not speaking about a person but the very underlying substance of YHVH Elohim which is q'noma (underlying substance).

Shlama,
Stephen
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#3
Ok, I would be quite upset if some one, including God gets my wife pregnant. That is my point, if HaShem says do not touch some one's else wife, why is he doing that. But mainly, I want to know if the translation of this passage could be done another way, if there can be another reading? I have a huge problem with the one actually is stated.

Thanks,
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#4
There is no other reading besides the traditional one and that of Toldoth Yeshu which suggests the following story:
Quote:Mary, who had been betrothed to a man named John, was seduced by her neighbor, Joseph ben Pantera. When she discovered she was pregnant, John left her and went to Babylon. When Jesus was born, she tried to pretend he was the son of John and even attempted to give him a Jewish religious education.
There could have been a third reading if it didn't contain the clause "before they could be consociated."

Side with the traditional reading and try to comprehend it in such a way that it's not a contradiction.
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#5
emet Wrote:Ok, I would be quite upset if some one, including God gets my wife pregnant. That is my point, if HaShem says do not touch some one's else wife, why is he doing that. But mainly, I want to know if the translation of this passage could be done another way, if there can be another reading? I have a huge problem with the one actually is stated.

Thanks,


Shlama Emet,

i'm sending you a PM on your profile here with some info that may help you. it is not addressing the textual nature of the Peshitta, as Aaron stated it says what it says, but comes at the issue from a Torah-based perspective. i try to refrain from engaging in theological discussions on the forum when not explicitly related to the text of the Peshitta, so look for my PM addressing your concerns.


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
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#6
Burning one Wrote:
emet Wrote:Ok, I would be quite upset if some one, including God gets my wife pregnant. That is my point, if HaShem says do not touch some one's else wife, why is he doing that. But mainly, I want to know if the translation of this passage could be done another way, if there can be another reading? I have a huge problem with the one actually is stated.

Thanks,


Quote:Shlama Emet,

i'm sending you a PM on your profile here with some info that may help you. it is not addressing the textual nature of the Peshitta, as Aaron stated it says what it says, but comes at the issue from a Torah-based perspective. i try to refrain from engaging in theological discussions on the forum when not explicitly related to the text of the Peshitta, so look for my PM addressing your concerns.

Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy

Shlama Khulkon:
It seems clear to me from this silly situation which has been surmised, that the Torah would present any other scenario than that which is given. That is, Jacob's prophesy that the Messiah wold come from the tribe of Judah. He would come from David's loins (womb) and He would be as Moses to lead the people. The Children of Isreael are seen as ONE consolidated people from four distinct mothers, all married to Jacob, as the scripture reveals.
Here's an illustration. If you purchase a watch and the jeweler who made the watch from scratch suggests an improvement by readjusting the time piece, do you say, "No, this is legally mine and only I have the right to make the adjustment". Would you not rather allow the Master Jewerer to dicker with your watch? So YHVH Elohim doesn't get caught up in legalism as he is manifest as the word through the willing virgin, Miryam. The Torah is used incorrectly to present any other silly legalistic scenario. It was the plan of YHVH Elohim before time began, to bring forth His only begotten Son, heir of all creation to secure our salvation. It's easy to think up silly hypothetical variants to the actual historical facts concerning the conception and birth of Messiah. However, Alaha chose to bring forth His Son from the virgin Miryam as Isaiah prophesied. I have never heard any Rabbinical argument that says that the Messiah would come any other way and win the argument, bringing into mind all of the scriptures concerning His coming.

"behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a Son...His name shall be called Emanuel (Alaha with us).

Shlama,
Stephen
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#7
Hi Jeremy, thanks for your answer. For me, I am not looking for a theological reasoning. I know the Hebrew for the virgin argument. It can go both ways. Fine.

BUT my problem is that if my wife comes and tells me that she is pregnant with HaShem's baby. Hmm, I would have a huge problem. HaShem is very big about family sanctity, if some one's wife is even suspected of sex outside marriage HaShem commands the sota case. You should never sleep again with a wife that has slept with some one else, etc. The Torah is clear about this.

Then: how can HaShem and get a nice Jewish girl pregnant. I know the theological argument, I do, but this is too big for me to swallow. And if this is not true, what else is not true!? Ohy.

I do not think it to be legalism, by the way. Torah is not legalistic. Legalism would be, wear only black on Fridays, even though the Bible does not say it.

Going back. Is there any other way to read this passage without HaShem impregnating my wife?
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#8
Stephen Silver Wrote:
Burning one Wrote:
emet Wrote:Ok, I would be quite upset if some one, including God gets my wife pregnant. That is my point, if HaShem says do not touch some one's else wife, why is he doing that. But mainly, I want to know if the translation of this passage could be done another way, if there can be another reading? I have a huge problem with the one actually is stated.

Thanks,


Quote:Shlama Emet,

i'm sending you a PM on your profile here with some info that may help you. it is not addressing the textual nature of the Peshitta, as Aaron stated it says what it says, but comes at the issue from a Torah-based perspective. i try to refrain from engaging in theological discussions on the forum when not explicitly related to the text of the Peshitta, so look for my PM addressing your concerns.

Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy

Shlama Khulkon:
It seems clear to me from this silly situation which has been surmised, that the Torah would present any other scenario than that which is given. That is, Jacob's prophesy that the Messiah wold come from the tribe of Judah. He would come from David's loins (womb) and He would be as Moses to lead the people. The Children of Isreael are seen as ONE consolidated people from four distinct mothers, all married to Jacob, as the scripture reveals.
Here's an illustration. If you purchase a watch and the jeweler who made the watch from scratch suggests an improvement by readjusting the time piece, do you say, "No, this is legally mine and only I have the right to make the adjustment". Would you not rather allow the Master Jewerer to dicker with your watch? So YHVH Elohim doesn't get caught up in legalism as he is manifest as the word through the willing virgin, Miryam. The Torah is used incorrectly to present any other silly legalistic scenario. It was the plan of YHVH Elohim before time began, to bring forth His only begotten Son, heir of all creation to secure our salvation. It's easy to think up silly hypothetical variants to the actual historical facts concerning the conception and birth of Messiah. However, Alaha chose to bring forth His Son from the virgin Miryam as Isaiah prophesied. I have never heard any Rabbinical argument that says that the Messiah would come any other way and win the argument, bringing into mind all of the scriptures concerning His coming.

"behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a Son...His name shall be called Emanuel (Alaha with us).

Shlama,
Stephen


Shlama akhi Stephen,

well i definitely don't believe the Torah presents any other scenario than the virgin birth, so i'm with you on that. by TORAH i mean both the legal as well as the pre-Torah principle that definitely existed before the codification came to us. all i meant was that the validity of the virgin birth can be strongly asserted through Torah - something that i've never personally seen any Rabbinic argument promote, yet it is there and very powerful. i don't want to go into the theological stuff on the forum so as to not break the rules, but if you'd like i can share with you what exactly i'm talking about. i've shared it with Protestants as well as Messianics and both sides have largely seen it as a refreshingly simple and Scriptural explanation of the virgin birth's validity being promoted as far back as Genesis 1.

Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
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#9
emet Wrote:BUT my problem is that if my wife comes and tells me that she is pregnant with HaShem's baby. Hmm, I would have a huge problem. HaShem is very big about family sanctity, if some one's wife is even suspected of sex outside marriage HaShem commands the sota case. You should never sleep again with a wife that has slept with some one else, etc. The Torah is clear about this.

Yes, but HaShem is not having sexual relationships with anyone, he is not a person. The Spirit put the seed in her womb not braking her hymen, not even touching her. It is one of the most beautiful miracles in all the Scriptures. He is not breaking any commandment, he is giving a promise. Why he didn't bring Y'shua by a unmarried girl, because no one will protect her and maybe they will kill her. He need a man to protect her, that is why a messenger appeared to Joseph later. I know how you feel, but you are thinking in human terms. HaShem is holy.
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#10
If HaShem gets my wife pregnant, I will leave her in seconds.

If an angel shows up and tells me is ok, I will still go away. It is not kosher. That is my problem.
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#11
I agree with the post above.. God protected the woman, left her a virgin, and fulfilled His Promise without breaking a single law.
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#12
emet Wrote:If HaShem gets my wife pregnant, I will leave her in seconds.

If an angel shows up and tells me is ok, I will still go away. It is not kosher. That is my problem.

If HaShem told you to sacrifice your only son, it wouldn't be "kosher" either according to your definition of "kosher".

Perhaps that's why HaShem chose Abraham and Joseph to show His plan of Salvation to the world, and not you. <!-- sWink --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /><!-- sWink -->

+Shamasha
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