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Importance of primacy
#1
Many people do not care about primacy. It is simply because they are ignorant.
When looking e.g at what quantities a Christian has to have in Epistles to Timothy, Titus we can see what a mess is in Greek New Testaments that this issue is simply almost voided. We need to know exactly what Apostle Paul requires from us.
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#2
What about the church fathers (Apostolic Orthodox Church, of course, of at least up until the 11th century),the saints? What do they have to say about these primacy issues? Has anyone done any research on this topic? So far, I saw little to no mention of them on this forum. Should they be found would you, guys, have any regard for it anyway? As for me, I would.

Arkady, Russia.
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#3
The qoutations of the early Christian "fathers" or teachers, that I have read, don't always line up with what is found in the Greek texts/translations of today. One instance is Origen, who writting about 230 A.D. shows that Hebrews 2:9 read "Apart from God"...but he also points out that "some copies" had the "by the Grace of God" reading...though He used the former reading in his teaching on the subject, which shows which reading he believed was the right one. This shows that in the best early Greek copies, that its reading for Hebrews 2:9 agreed with the Aramaic text we have today, but has fallen out of the Greek.

Shlama,
Chuck
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#4
Thirdwoe Wrote:The qoutations of the early Christian "fathers" or teachers, that I have read, don't always line up with what is found in the Greek texts/translations of today. One instance is Origen, who writting about 230 A.D. shows that Hebrews 2:9 read "Apart from God"...but he also points out that "some copies" had the "by the Grace of God" reading...though He used the former reading in his teaching on the subject, which shows which reading he believed was the right one. This shows that in the best early Greek copies, that its reading for Hebrews 2:9 agreed with the Aramaic text we have today, but has fallen out of the Greek.

Shlama,
Chuck

well, while it is an obvious thing that Matai and Paulos wrote to hebrews in aramaic, still you did not answer my question. Some of Origen's teachings are rather debatable and controversial and were not accepted of the Church. In this respect he does not really amount to the term 'church father' i was referring to.
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#5
thirdwoe, as usual, the numeric text does not agree with you. The numeric text is mathematically flawless, your vague unfounded surmisings are not. Professor Panin's numerically indisputable text proves the later reading, not the former, you lot just keep stabbing blindly in the dark walking around in circles over and over and over again coming up with all sorts of misconceptions trying to make a square fit into a round hole, unbelievable... <!-- s:lookround: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/lookround.gif" alt=":lookround:" title="Look Round" /><!-- s:lookround: -->
God has woven mathematics into all of creation, 7 is riddled throughout creation, perfection, the very number and only number that is used so astoundingly to prove and validate the original text, and any words or verses in dispute. It even proves that Matthew was originally written in Greek.
I REPEAT! The widely spoken primary language of Ephesus was GREEK not ARAMAIC not to mention Corinth. And timothys father was a Greek right!? Not only does logic give you the evidence, known as common sense, but 50 years of mathematical calculations by an elite professor <!-- s:lookround: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/lookround.gif" alt=":lookround:" title="Look Round" /><!-- s:lookround: --> prove the original text, GREEK! nothing you say can compete with that, all i see here on this site is incessant constant speculation and babbling...oh and wishful thinking, save yourself the confusion mate, not a lot in the Aramaic makes sense when analyzed closely, its incoherent, you know it, i know it, and 99% of Christians know it, so come back to reality matey.. <!-- s:whaasup: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/whaasup.gif" alt=":whaasup:" title="Whaasup" /><!-- s:whaasup: --> .
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#6
Hi Arkady,

Which ones do you approve of? And I'll check what they wrote and quoted, if I can find it.

There are of course Apostolic Catholic Orthodox Aramaic speaking/writing (Church of the East), Greek speaking/writting (Orthodox Church), and Latin speaking/writting (Catholic Church) Church teachers.

One thing to understand is that THE MESSAGE is found in ALL languages, Aramaic, Greek, Latin, English...though some are more pure than others in the transmission/translation.

Origen is a very important witness to what was found in the early Greek copies he had accsess to, because he is considered the formost leading Biblical Scholar of his time. He certainly would know what was present in the books of the Bible. And it is seen that he had Hebrews 2:9 as it's found in the Aramaic Eastern Peshitta New Testament, but is no longer found in the Greek or english copies/translations used today.

Lets check it out...
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#7
Hi Zardak,

Have you ever come across a single Greek Manuscript that agrees 100% with the re-constucted text that Mr. Panin crafted in the 1900s? You say its 100% perfect in every line/word/verse...well then, show me one single Greek Manuscript that reads 100% as it does. If you cant find one, are you trying to teach that God's Holy Word has not existed on the planet for all these hundreds/thousand of years until Mr. Panin published his editing work in the early 1900s?

I know you are very fond of the idea of it...but where is the proof? Show me a single Greek Manuscript that lines up 100% with Mr. Panin's text...and I'll study it.

I see for Hebrews 2:9, that most of the ancient Greek copies agreed with the Aramaic Eastern Peshitta's reading, as seen by the witness of Origen about the year 230 A.D. in his qoutation of it....That means that most (99%?) of the Christians living back then, had their Bibles read as the Aramaic Peshitta still does for that verse...not Mr. Panin's version.

Shlama,
Chuck
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#8
Also, Zardak.

I still see you are having trouble speaking/writting respectfully to others here which you don't agree with about everything. I admonish you to try harder to be so in your posts. Its becoming of a follower of Christ, honors God, and will help you stay here on the board longer, to share your thoughts and studies with others here.

I take no offense in your tone or words, as I'm dead to such things, but the rules are established here as to how we speak to others and we must be careful not to break them.

Shlama,
Chuck
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#9
Shlama Akhi Zardak:
Welcome back to the forum. Nevertheless, your tone is rude and condescending of other members. It appears to me that you haven't learned anything by being banned for a month. Nip it in the bud dear brother, and have respect for others. Just agree to disagree. If you come on like a hammer to the learned on this forum I will have to intervene once again with a more severe banning.
You got off on the wrong foot and I suggest that you just try to keep your tone civil. You should read the rules on the General page of the forum, under the topic Forum Rules. If you have any questions concerning the Forum rules you may send me a private message and I will clarify them for you. This is a scholarly forum and we want scholarly input from all of our members. If I allow you to be rude with others then where will it end? We don't want to even contemplate the mayhem that will follow. There are many godly members and isn't that what we all strive for, brother Zardak?
I do sincerely wish you well in your walk with our gracious LORD Jesus Christ. Let's treat each other as beloved brethren in the LORD Jesus. Be encouraged and encourage others. It would truly be a shame if we are not able to communicate as Ambassadors of Christ who partake of the divine nature.

Shlama,
Stephen Silver
Forum Moderator
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#10
The other books aside...this idea that the New Testament books of Matthew, Hebrews, and James, were originally written in Greek is not feasible.

Here we told to believe that the inspired human authors, (Matthew, Paul, & James) who were Jewish men, who spoke and wrote in Aramaic, writing unto Aramaic speaking Jewish peoples in Israel (Matthew & Hebrews) and scattered abroad in diaspora (James), originally wrote these books in Greek...as if all the Jews who were to read these words were Greek speakers/readers, and did not make use of their Aramaic Language as their main language.

I guess because God could not get the same math numeric down in Aramaic (as some claim He did in Greek), then Greek had to be used instead of Aramaic, even though it was not the language the Jews spoke and read in? It just does not add up...pun intended.

It would be like the North American Church people, who speak and read in the English language, both living in the USA and abroad, being sent a letter/book in the Chinese language from English speaking/writting Church leaders in the USA, who wanted to communicate God's Message to them. Why would they do such a strange thing?

Shlama,
Chuck
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#11
Thirdwoe Wrote:Hi Arkady,

Which ones do you approve of? And I'll check what they wrote and quoted, if I can find it.

I tend to believe in Peshitta primacy though I am not so sure about the epistles and the Book of Revelation of The Apostle Yokhonan Theologian Whom Jesus loved.

While making logical conclusions is only right and good, I don't like the vibe I am getting from the idea that I make decision upon these primacy issues without profound knowledge of any of the languages involved in this controversy nor having done any decent research of my own. I strongly dislike the idea that I am thinking contrary to the opinion of certain fathers (like Basil the Great, Gregory the Theologian, and John Chrysostom (among those mostly venerated by us) and many others with them) of Church on this question if there're any or should they be discovered. that's all. They would be my first and last resort, really a matter of authority to me, submission if you like. As a child of those who have managed to survive under Stalin's regime though being removed from ukraine to the southern siberia, I believe I know what it's like to fall into the hands of God for having acted like disobedient children, meant to be the members of the Christ's Body. Our nation up until the beginning of the 20 century strongly adhered to the Canons of the Church and opinions of the church fathers and lived more or less in accordance with them and were thus led by the hand of God for the last 1000 years until the moment we betrayed our anointed tsar - martyr Nicholas II whose family our nation has sworn to serve in 1613 until the Second Coming of Christ.

I am not here to deny your findings, I (more of) recoursed to you guys as to the people (should I say scholars) more conversant in this subject. I think we ought to listen attentively if any of the aforementioned fathers have anything to tell us on this because one can not argue with those who were inspired by the Most Holy God Himself despite any findings of one's own, no matter how concrete these findings might sound to our ears. No disrespect meant.
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#12
Who is Panin? A God's prophet? A light to the world?
Why do we have to put our salvation and life and trust into Panin?
Who gave him right to correct Word of God? Who? Zardak?

Historically ancient 22 books Peshitta text of the ACOE is the
reality, the text that was never changed.


Is it not enough to advertise this Panin on this forum?
Tomorrow we might have Zanin, Banin etc. who can come up with their
new numerical theories.
Please, have fear of God and stop corruption of the Word of God.
This is my stand.

Look at the Greek New Testament. Heavily corrupted. This was not mistakes
of the scribes. It was WILLFULLY corrupted. The logic tells us it was done by those
who were interested in destruction of Christianity. Who said to the Roman soldiers to
go and say to everybody that body of Jesus was stolen by his disciples and gave them money?

Devil took Jesus and said that if you bow to me I will give you all the kingdoms of the earth for all of them are subjected to me and I give to whom I want what. Poor Greek brothers. The world system corrupted your texts. Why the ACOE was being destroying by the world system very heavily? Because the devil knows that 22 books Peshitta is the only true text of Christ Gospel.
Everything in this world has reasons.
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#13
Akhay Ivan and Arkady,

BTW, you may or may not know that the Tsar saved the Church of the East on numerous occasions. It is only when his troops pulled back in 1917 to try and prevent the rebellion in Moscow, that we were left defenseless in the mountains of Hakkari and slaughter occurred.

http://www.marshimun.com/new/index.php?o...4&Itemid=8

For the protection of Russia, and especially the care of the Czar for our community, we are forever grateful.

+Shamasha
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#14
IPOstapyuk Wrote:Do you know then who destroyed the Czar?
The newly formed masonic lodge in Russia that was controlled
by the superior England masonic lodge.

it does not diminish our guilt though. we did let that happen by not having done anything in order to prevent it.
Although nowadays jews did not crucify the Christ, they still remain under curse:

"His blood be on us, and on our children" (Mt 27:25). Up to the point that when they were to be received into the Church they had to go through special rituals, to denounce their former beliefs and the "commandments of men" they observed (Talmud, Shulchan Aruch and the like).

sorry for the offtop.

Arkady. Russia.
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#15
Arkady Wrote:
IPOstapyuk Wrote:Do you know then who destroyed the Czar?
The newly formed masonic lodge in Russia that was controlled
by the superior England masonic lodge.

it does not diminish our guilt though. we did let that happen by not having done anything in order to prevent it.
Although nowadays jews did not crucify the Christ, they still remain under curse:

"His blood be on us, and on our children" (Mt 27:25). Up to the point that when they were to be received into the Church they had to go through special rituals, to denounce their former beliefs and the "commandments of men" they observed (Talmud, Shulchan Aruch and the like).

sorry for the offtop.

Arkady. Russia.


Shlama Arkady:
You are off topic, but I will answer once as one with Jewish blood. Your conclusions, like Ivans, in fact quoting Ivan, have no place side by side with scripture. The Apostles and disciples of Yeshua went through no special rituals whereby they were "washed of their Jewishness". The Jerusalem Assembly (Acts 15) laid no extra-rituals upon the Gentile believers except those that were necessary to separate them from paganism and make fellowship with the Jewish believers easier. Also, Romans 11 is Paul's own teaching, accepted by the Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East and it puts no such stumblingblock in the way of the Jew who joins the Assyrian Church of the East. These "extra rituals" have been rescinded even by the Roman Catholic Church in this century. Read history. Anti-Semitism is insidious. It does not belong here on <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.peshitta.org">http://www.peshitta.org</a><!-- m -->. I understand that you are Jewish. Is this correct? Why do you want to wash yourself of your Jewishness and conform to the Gentiles. If you have been taught from childhood as a practicing Jew, why would you think that Alaha would think of you in a lesser light than a Gentile in wanting you to engage in practices that are foreign to you from birth. On the otherhand, if Jewishness means nothing to you perhaps you have lived as a Gentile from childhood and have not reconciled that you have Jewish blood. Yeshua Mashikha never rescinded His title, being King of the Jews. You are not forced in any way as a Christian to rescind yourself of your Jewish blood, nor can you and it is not the will of Alaha for you to despise your Jewishness.
Did Alaha listen to the prayer of Yeshua Mashikha who was dying on the cross.

"forgive them LORD for they know not what they do"

Whose prayer did Alaha answer, Arkady? The Christian Church has been known to be wrong from time to time.

Anti-Semitism has been around a long long time, almost as long as paganism and hethenism. Gentiles had nothing till Yeshua Mashikha the King of the Yehudim gave his life for all who repent of their sins. Being a Jew is not a sin. Being a Gentile is not a sin. The sin is unrepentance and a failure to accept Yeshua Mashikha as our LORD and Saviour. Torah Observance is not sin. (Matthew 5:17-18) I sincerely hope this helps.
One more thing. I know that Ivan and you and I have been off topic. I'm stuck with the unenviable job of cleaning up the mess of "off-topic" subjects. I'm not sure if we're out of the woods yet with this one. Have mercy on me, your sensitive brother in Mashikha.

Shlama,
Stephen Silver
Forum Moderator
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